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More Debunking the Relationship Between Video Games and Aggression... With Science!

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Posts

  • Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'm pretty sure Gabe already cracked the code on people acting like idiots and being violent. It's not so much Violent video games, or video games at all, its his..well his theory, and then that effect growing onto the person untill it becomes an actual trait.

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  • TalkaTalka Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It specifically relates to violent crimes. The one I'm actually after is specifically the youth crime rate. The per person and overall rates have been decreasing, dramatically. I'm not meaning to imply that video games are related to the drop at all, but they specifically refute the idea that the rise in video games would cause an increase in youth violence. Because violence has only gone down.

    Dude, you're talking about over-extrapolation in scientifically controlled studies and then claiming that you can just look at nation-wide crime rate statistics and use that as evidence that violent media doesn't predict aggression. There are a lot of reasons the violent crime rate has gone down in recent years. It proves nothing.

    Talka on
  • TxsAJTxsAJ Registered User
    edited November 2008
    It's important to note that only a small handful of people do studies on this at all. That small handful, at least after reading several of these journals, is in my opinion incredibly biased and full of junk science.

    TxsAJ on
  • TalkaTalka Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    TxsAJ wrote: »
    It's important to note that only a small handful of people do studies on this at all. That small handful, at least after reading several of these journals, is in my opinion incredibly biased and full of junk science.

    Eh? Developmental psychology is like the fastest growing field in the discipline after cognitive psychology, and if the universities with strong developmental programs are biased it's because they're incredibly liberal.

    Man, what the fuck does it even mean to be biased in a scientific journal? Towards what? Their own theories? Well, duh, that's why we have scientific journals, so that theories can be evaluated critically.

    Talka on
  • TxsAJTxsAJ Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Talka wrote: »
    TxsAJ wrote: »
    It's important to note that only a small handful of people do studies on this at all. That small handful, at least after reading several of these journals, is in my opinion incredibly biased and full of junk science.

    Eh? Developmental psychology is like the fastest growing field in discipline after cognitive psychology, and if the universities with strong developmental programs are biased it's because they're incredibly liberal.

    Man, what the fuck does it even mean to be biased in a scientific journal? Towards what? Their own theories? Well, duh, that's why we have scientific journals, so that theories can be evaluated critically.


    I realize that. And evaluations of some of their theories have shown that their own data doesn't even support their conclusions, specifically Douglas Gentile I think. The bottom line is that yes, they have their own theories. Scientific Journals are not supposed to be biased- that's why they are scientific journals. If they get data that doesn't agree with what they hypothesize, the journal should say that.

    Also, I've tried looking up this subject specifically, I.E. Violent Gaming and adolescents, and I can only find a small handful of articles and journals. I'm not saying child psychology isn't big, just this facet doesn't seem to be.

    TxsAJ on
  • TalkaTalka Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    There hasn't been much research on video games, specifically. Longitudinal studies take a lot of time. The ones that are finishing up right now are demonstrating a link between violent media and aggression. They look at movies, television, music, etc. I don't know of any reputable studies that have completed a longitudinal program on video games.

    There is plenty of research linking violent media to aggression. I don't think anyone is going to claim that video games are unique to violent media and follow their own pattern.

    Talka on
  • TxsAJTxsAJ Registered User
    edited November 2008
    I certainly won't make that claim, I just meant that those studies that do claim to look specifically at games are poorly written and biased. We can learn plenty from reputable violent media studies.

    TxsAJ on
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    James, do you know what adrenaline is and how it affects the body?

    Briefly?

    It's produced as the body's reaction to sudden stress and exhilaration. It results in an increased heartbeat and general heightened physical performance in order to instinctually and physically react.

    Stimulating video games (stimulating -anything- for that matter) triggers the body to start producing adrenaline.

    Ergo, what's essentially being argued by most of the "video games don't cause aggression" camp is that human bodies do not learn or adapt. The smaller but far more reasonable camp accepts that the relationship exists, but believes it's no more severe than watching a game of football or something similar. I'd argue against that too, but it's not actually a completely inane position to take.

    Aroduc on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    James, do you know what adrenaline is and how it affects the body?

    Briefly?

    It's produced as the body's reaction to sudden stress and exhilaration. It results in an increased heartbeat and general heightened physical performance in order to instinctually and physically react.

    Stimulating video games (stimulating -anything- for that matter) triggers the body to start producing adrenaline.

    Ergo, what's essentially being argued by most of the "video games don't cause aggression" camp is that human bodies do not learn or adapt. The smaller but far more reasonable camp accepts that the relationship exists, but believes it's no more severe than watching a game of football or something similar. I'd argue against that too, but it's not actually a completely inane position to take.

    Wouldn't frequent, unneeded releasal deaden that pathway, in the same way that repeated drug users need more and more to get the same high over time?

    Scalfin on
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  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    The smaller but far more reasonable camp accepts that the relationship exists, but believes it's no more severe than watching a game of football or something similar. I'd argue against that too, but it's not actually a completely inane position to take.

    Which actually is more my position, despite what my rather hasty posts earlier may have suggested. I don't specifically mean that violent video games have the exact same effect on the body and mind as staring at a beach has.


    What I actually mean is that I do not honestly believe violent video games have some extra detrimental unique effect on people.

    JamesKeenan on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    James, do you know what adrenaline is and how it affects the body?

    Briefly?

    It's produced as the body's reaction to sudden stress and exhilaration. It results in an increased heartbeat and general heightened physical performance in order to instinctually and physically react.

    Stimulating video games (stimulating -anything- for that matter) triggers the body to start producing adrenaline.

    Ergo, what's essentially being argued by most of the "video games don't cause aggression" camp is that human bodies do not learn or adapt. The smaller but far more reasonable camp accepts that the relationship exists, but believes it's no more severe than watching a game of football or something similar. I'd argue against that too, but it's not actually a completely inane position to take.

    Really, the only thing that bothers me about the conclusion "Videogames cause an increase in violent behavior" is that it lacks a hell of a lot of important qualifiers.

    I'd say it is closer to "Videogames (In addition to all other forms of media in existence) (can in some cases) cause an increase in violent(or aggressive but non-violent) behavior(when violence is shown in a positive light, as a way of resolving conflict, and is not shown to have any significant consequences)"

    durandal4532 on
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  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    James, do you know what adrenaline is and how it affects the body?

    Briefly?

    It's produced as the body's reaction to sudden stress and exhilaration. It results in an increased heartbeat and general heightened physical performance in order to instinctually and physically react.

    Stimulating video games (stimulating -anything- for that matter) triggers the body to start producing adrenaline.

    Ergo, what's essentially being argued by most of the "video games don't cause aggression" camp is that human bodies do not learn or adapt. The smaller but far more reasonable camp accepts that the relationship exists, but believes it's no more severe than watching a game of football or something similar. I'd argue against that too, but it's not actually a completely inane position to take.

    Wouldn't frequent, unneeded releasal deaden that pathway, in the same way that repeated drug users need more and more to get the same high over time?

    Who says it's unneeded?

    Aroduc on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    James, do you know what adrenaline is and how it affects the body?

    Briefly?

    It's produced as the body's reaction to sudden stress and exhilaration. It results in an increased heartbeat and general heightened physical performance in order to instinctually and physically react.

    Stimulating video games (stimulating -anything- for that matter) triggers the body to start producing adrenaline.

    Ergo, what's essentially being argued by most of the "video games don't cause aggression" camp is that human bodies do not learn or adapt. The smaller but far more reasonable camp accepts that the relationship exists, but believes it's no more severe than watching a game of football or something similar. I'd argue against that too, but it's not actually a completely inane position to take.

    Wouldn't frequent, unneeded releasal deaden that pathway, in the same way that repeated drug users need more and more to get the same high over time?

    Who says it's unneeded?

    No, tolerance isn't necessarily a common effect. Even with abused drugs, there can be tolerance for some aspects, sensitization to others.

    As for adrenaline... it's not actually applicable here in my opinion. I mean, most studies aren't "when you play an exciting game you're more likely to be violent." Gears of War doesn't make my heart race, especially the 2nd time through. It does teach me that disagreements can be settled via chainsaws with no repercussion save women thinking I am sexy.

    durandal4532 on
    Take a moment to donate what you can to the International Rescue Committee, the National Immigration Law Center, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the American Civil Liberties Union. There has never been a more urgent moment to do so.
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Now where have I heard that argument before?

    Aroduc on
  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Now where have I heard that argument before?

    Hail to the king, baby.

    JamesKeenan on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Do you know what adrenaline is for, Aroduc?

    durandal4532 on
    Take a moment to donate what you can to the International Rescue Committee, the National Immigration Law Center, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the American Civil Liberties Union. There has never been a more urgent moment to do so.
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Do you know what adrenaline is for, Aroduc?

    Killing whores to gain health, of course.

    Scalfin on
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  • ElitistbElitistb Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Most of these "watchdog agencies" feel that violent video games create violent behavior.

    How many of the members of these agencies support sports? Especially things like American Football, Hockey, Basketball, etc?

    These sports support DIRECT VIOLENCE AGAINST OTHER HUMANS. I believe they are far more likely to cause violent behavior, though the only evidence I have of this are the highschools that I have attended.

    Elitistb on
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  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Elitistb wrote: »
    Most of these "watchdog agencies" feel that violent video games create violent behavior.

    How many of the members of these agencies support sports? Especially things like American Football, Hockey, Basketball, etc?

    These sports support DIRECT VIOLENCE AGAINST OTHER HUMANS. I believe they are far more likely to cause violent behavior, though the only evidence I have of this are the highschools that I have attended.

    And then there is the NRA that actually teaches children how to shoot people, and gun shows that let children practice shooting Uzis.

    Scalfin on
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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    The smaller but far more reasonable camp accepts that the relationship exists, but believes it's no more severe than watching a game of football or something similar. I'd argue against that too, but it's not actually a completely inane position to take.

    Which actually is more my position, despite what my rather hasty posts earlier may have suggested. I don't specifically mean that violent video games have the exact same effect on the body and mind as staring at a beach has.


    What I actually mean is that I do not honestly believe violent video games have some extra detrimental unique effect on people.

    Neither do the reports you dislike so much.

    If you noticed that.

    It's the media who don't understand the reports at all because they are idiots who cause all the trouble JK. I'd really, really like it if you would stop transferring blame onto people just doing their job?

    Morninglord on
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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    The smaller but far more reasonable camp accepts that the relationship exists, but believes it's no more severe than watching a game of football or something similar. I'd argue against that too, but it's not actually a completely inane position to take.

    Which actually is more my position, despite what my rather hasty posts earlier may have suggested. I don't specifically mean that violent video games have the exact same effect on the body and mind as staring at a beach has.


    What I actually mean is that I do not honestly believe violent video games have some extra detrimental unique effect on people.

    Neither do the reports you dislike so much.

    If you noticed that.

    It's the media who don't understand the reports at all because they are idiots who cause all the trouble JK. I'd really, really like it if you would stop transferring blame onto people just doing their job?

    Yeah, there are certainly a couple people who've done just asinine studies that seem designed to find a significance where it doesn't exist, but for the most part studies done on videogames present a rather even picture. Maybe some extra attention is paid to the fact that being interactive might make them better at teaching poor behavioral patterns.

    But the bulk of the blame for negative stigma can definitely be placed at the feet of the media, for turning "Children tend to exhibit more aggressive problem-solving techniques when aggressive behavior is shown as rewarding in a videogame" into "Children... aggressive... when aggressive behavior is... in a videogame".

    durandal4532 on
    Take a moment to donate what you can to the International Rescue Committee, the National Immigration Law Center, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the American Civil Liberties Union. There has never been a more urgent moment to do so.
  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    The smaller but far more reasonable camp accepts that the relationship exists, but believes it's no more severe than watching a game of football or something similar. I'd argue against that too, but it's not actually a completely inane position to take.

    Which actually is more my position, despite what my rather hasty posts earlier may have suggested. I don't specifically mean that violent video games have the exact same effect on the body and mind as staring at a beach has.


    What I actually mean is that I do not honestly believe violent video games have some extra detrimental unique effect on people.

    Neither do the reports you dislike so much.

    If you noticed that.

    It's the media who don't understand the reports at all because they are idiots who cause all the trouble JK. I'd really, really like it if you would stop transferring blame onto people just doing their job?

    Yeah, there are certainly a couple people who've done just asinine studies that seem designed to find a significance where it doesn't exist, but for the most part studies done on videogames present a rather even picture. Maybe some extra attention is paid to the fact that being interactive might make them better at teaching poor behavioral patterns.

    But the bulk of the blame for negative stigma can definitely be placed at the feet of the media, for turning "Children tend to exhibit more aggressive problem-solving techniques when aggressive behavior is shown as rewarding in a videogame" into "Children... aggressive... when aggressive behavior is... in a videogame".

    Well yeah there's certainly going to be bad research because even the smartest people can be smallminded. And to be honest the teaching of psychology doesn't put enough emphasis on the scientific thought process so a lot of bad logic gets through.
    But as you say, it's by no means a representation of the overal field.

    Morninglord on
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  • real_pochaccoreal_pochacco Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Arguing that there is no link between video games and aggression is like arguing against global warming. You can try and come up with bullshit, but honestly, the scientific community forgot about you a while back, duder. There isn't really a debate anymore.

    real_pochacco on
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Arguing that there is no link between video games and aggression is like arguing against global warming. You can try and come up with bullshit, but honestly, the scientific community forgot about you a while back, duder. There isn't really a debate anymore.
    Yeah, except right here in this thread there seems to be a hell of a lot of confusion about transient adrenaline increases (which have little to do with violence per se) vs any sort of long term, significant effect of the kind which might actually have something to do with anything. Or indeed be unique to the video game medium as opposed to any other. And not be relevant to say, sports and other WHOLESOME ALL-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES.

    EDIT: I mean good god, was someone thinking people didn't understand adrenaline earlier in this thread in relation to the committal of violent crimes? I mean unless you're showing a strong link between say, school shootings that occur within 5 minutes of the perpetrators playing GTA or something. And you know, even then.

    electricitylikesme on
  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Arguing that there is no link between video games and aggression is like arguing against global warming. You can try and come up with bullshit, but honestly, the scientific community forgot about you a while back, duder. There isn't really a debate anymore.
    Yeah, except right here in this thread there seems to be a hell of a lot of confusion about transient adrenaline increases (which have little to do with violence per se) vs any sort of long term, significant effect of the kind which might actually have something to do with anything. Or indeed be unique to the video game medium as opposed to any other. And not be relevant to say, sports and other WHOLESOME ALL-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES.

    EDIT: I mean good god, was someone thinking people didn't understand adrenaline earlier in this thread in relation to the committal of violent crimes? I mean unless you're showing a strong link between say, school shootings that occur within 5 minutes of the perpetrators playing GTA or something. And you know, even then.

    Nobody worthwhile is arguing that violent games are special when it comes to increasing aggression.

    They're not unique.

    Morninglord on
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  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Arguing that there is no link between video games and aggression is like arguing against global warming. You can try and come up with bullshit, but honestly, the scientific community forgot about you a while back, duder. There isn't really a debate anymore.
    Yeah, except right here in this thread there seems to be a hell of a lot of confusion about transient adrenaline increases (which have little to do with violence per se) vs any sort of long term, significant effect of the kind which might actually have something to do with anything. Or indeed be unique to the video game medium as opposed to any other. And not be relevant to say, sports and other WHOLESOME ALL-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES.

    EDIT: I mean good god, was someone thinking people didn't understand adrenaline earlier in this thread in relation to the committal of violent crimes? I mean unless you're showing a strong link between say, school shootings that occur within 5 minutes of the perpetrators playing GTA or something. And you know, even then.

    Nobody worthwhile is arguing that violent games are special when it comes to increasing aggression.

    They're not unique.

    Well, movies, books, and radio plays might actually be worse because the hero could be viewed as a role model.

    Scalfin on
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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Books and radio plays are too dissociated from the act.

    You are only hearing about it and reading about it.

    Perhaps if they had an extremely good imagination. I really doubt it would have a huge effect.

    Movies, tv and games affects a much greater spread of the population, much more easily.

    Morninglord on
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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    But not in any long term sort of way. You can't obsess over a short term adrenaline rush unless you revisit it constantly. Books on the other hand...

    electricitylikesme on
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