When we did have advertisments by the way, specifically google ads, we made something in the region of 25 cents a day from them. It spiked to 50 cents once and google pulled the plug.
I meant the forumers probably provide a lot of the traffic past the main page.
I mean, come on. They have a new comic and web post three times per week. The bulk of their traffic has to be the people who log on to the site three or four times per day on the way into the forum.
The traffic of the forum compared to the main site is utterly, utterly insignificant.
I empathize with people who get upset though. People develop an emotional attachment to the communities they join, online or offline. It's hard to see it broken up.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
edited November 2008
There will always be other forums, other Cardboard Tubes, other Oboros, other Drez's.
Someone can make a new forum on their own dime and time and the users can migrate.
Or not.
For instance, we shut down the G&T chat thread about two years ago, and the vocal minority that posted there bitched up a storm as though they had a right to that thread and as in this case, the term "home" was used. It's bullshit.
Don't care about the chat thread, but I'd still like to see the mega threads come back, you cold, calloused, heartless, bastard.
Heh, all forums go through this stuff. There was the great exodus at PA back in the day, there were shutdowns when Mike got pissed off etc. Owners can do whatever they want with their toys.
I just think its a matter tact of how to go about it. Even if there is a part of a community that is not very profitable, a lot of those people supported the comic book creators since the dawn of man, and while they are not owed anything, giving them a finger is not... nice.
Heh, all forums go through this stuff. There was the great exodus at PA back in the day, there were shutdowns when Mike got pissed off etc. Owners can do whatever they want with their toys.
I just think its a matter tact of how to go about it. Even if there is a part of a community that is not very profitable, a lot of those people supported the comic book creators since the dawn of man, and while they are not owed anything, giving them a finger is not... nice.
But at the same time, people latch and leech and then feel they are owed something. I don't really believe an artist owes any fan any damn thing.
I think this really goes to a fundamental psychological issue, though, and really has little to do with Kurtz himself. Human beings simply dislike being displaced. It doesn't really matter to them that they have no ownership or control over the shelter being provided for them. They conflate the community with the location, and for good reason, because they are married to each other.
The question is whether or not the host of a particular community shelter is responsible for maintaining the shelter once that community develops. You can almost think of it as a developing fetus. The difference being that there is no age or size or stage of development at which the community itself can detach from the shelter and continue to exist (except to find another shelter and dislocate the community to said shelter, such as splinter groups have done here in the past as in TTB, Technorati, and that other god-awful one I won't even name).
The community only exists while the shelter exists, at least in online situations. You can move the community, but that's difficult and troublesome.
However, I don't feel the provider of an essentially altruistic service is under any obligation to or has any responsibility toward fostering any community that springs up around his personality, particularly if it costs him or her money.
Heh, all forums go through this stuff. There was the great exodus at PA back in the day, there were shutdowns when Mike got pissed off etc. Owners can do whatever they want with their toys. I just think its a matter tact of how to go about it. Even if there is a part of a community that is not very profitable, a lot of those people supported the comic book creators since the dawn of man, and while they are not owed anything, giving them a finger is not... nice.
That's pretty much the whole of it. Gabe and Tycho could shut us down on a whim, it'd just suck in comparison to them giving us a few days notice so that the regulars could find a new place to maek poast or something.
How many of you guys have bought t shirts, comic prints, the game (ok so everyone bought the game) etc? It's not clear how said fans actually contribute to the revenue of the site.
I went to PAX twice, bought a number of shirts, and even though I don't have access to any super-secret forums, I did donate $5 to the site a long, long time ago.
The PA forums have created for me: a fiancee, IRL friends, and more knowledge about politics than most of the people I know, among other things. I still feel I should give Jerry and Mike more money, but unfortunately I have almost none to give.
I dont know about that. If you build a home, you shouldnt be surprised if people will come and live there. And people build those homes not because they are just nice or feel like it, but usually have a goal in mind, as it usually takes planning and money to set one up. Its usually done either to achieve some sort of relevant discourse or to foster and grow a community tangential to your main site.
The owner has the absolute right to shut it down if it doesnt suit his goals anymore, its his money and work after all. But to soy that the artist does not owe its public anything is a bit disingenuous, especially since the fandom is their source of revenue. It is a symbiotic relationship, after all.
I think that when a fan of anything purchases the product, the pact between artist and fan is complete. No artist owes the fan something for buying their product for years, the reward for the fan was the product itself. Alice Cooper doesn't owe me shit just because I go to all his concerts.
Of course I get in free and go backstage because I'm awesome but the point is valid.
I bought the game, I need to get me some t-shirts, I feel PA is a community worth supporting, this forum is (imho) the best on the net as it is so well moderated, the mods don't stand for sass and I like that.
Also, the comic is the best on the net, I like Ctrl Alt Del when he is on the mark, Sinfest has it's moments and PBF was great while it was around but no other comic holds up to the consistency of PA, I love seeing how well Mike's art as evolved, guy is awfull skilled.
I dont know about that. If you build a home, you shouldnt be surprised if people will come and live there. And people build those homes not because they are just nice or feel like it, but usually have a goal in mind, as it usually takes planning and money to set one up. Its usually done either to achieve some sort of relevant discourse or to foster and grow a community tangential to your main site.
The owner has the absolute right to shut it down if it doesnt suit his goals anymore, its his money and work after all. But to soy that the artist does not owe its public anything is a bit disingenuous, especially since the fandom is their source of revenue. It is a symbiotic relationship, after all.
Fans like to think it is, but it really isn't. Unless you consider all businesses where goods or services are traded "symbiotic." I mean, do I have a symbiotic relationship with my deli? Are they obligated to post sales on milk and eggs every week to keep my business?
Unless you consider all businesses where goods or services are traded "symbiotic." I mean, do I have a symbiotic relationship with my deli? Are they obligated to post sales on milk and eggs every week to keep my business?
The buyer-seller relationship is symbiotic by its very nature, but I guess what you're driving at is, "if I have a relationship with a company, should they give me added value in exchange for my loyalty". In the case of a deli, if you're in there every day, it probably isn't a bad idea for them to kick in a free drink with your sandwich every now and again -- usually done in the form of some coupons included with your purchase.
But you're comparing the inherent value of goods and services with the subjective value of art. Art is only valuable if people find it pleasing, and a lot of that goes with the back story of the art and the artists. The lead singer of one of my favorite bands was an asshole to me at a bar once, and it left a bad taste in my mouth, so I stopped buying their shit. Artists and creatives very much depend on the rapport they have with their fans in order to keep themselves financially viable, so while they have the right to screw with their fans as much as they want, it has direct financial consequences.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I think that when a fan of anything purchases the product, the pact between artist and fan is complete. No artist owes the fan something for buying their product for years, the reward for the fan was the product itself. Alice Cooper doesn't owe me shit just because I go to all his concerts
You realize you're basically flying in the face of like 99% of the internet here. Not that I disagree with you, I've been saying the same thing for years, but there are entire huge communities and fandoms that basically exist because people feel they are owed something for watching Buffy for ten years or whatever.
I think that when a fan of anything purchases the product, the pact between artist and fan is complete. No artist owes the fan something for buying their product for years, the reward for the fan was the product itself. Alice Cooper doesn't owe me shit just because I go to all his concerts
You realize you're basically flying in the face of like 99% of the internet here. Not that I disagree with you, I've been saying the same thing for years, but there are entire huge communities and fandoms that basically exist because people feel they are owed something for watching Buffy for ten years or whatever.
Just because the entire world has an entitlement complex doesn't mean Tube is wrong or that he shouldn't state the truth.
Unless you consider all businesses where goods or services are traded "symbiotic." I mean, do I have a symbiotic relationship with my deli? Are they obligated to post sales on milk and eggs every week to keep my business?
The buyer-seller relationship is symbiotic by its very nature, but I guess what you're driving at is, "if I have a relationship with a company, should they give me added value in exchange for my loyalty". In the case of a deli, if you're in there every day, it probably isn't a bad idea for them to kick in a free drink with your sandwich every now and again -- usually done in the form of some coupons included with your purchase.
But you're comparing the inherent value of goods and services with the subjective value of art. Art is only valuable if people find it pleasing, and a lot of that goes with the back story of the art and the artists. The lead singer of one of my favorite bands was an asshole to me at a bar once, and it left a bad taste in my mouth, so I stopped buying their shit. Artists and creatives very much depend on the rapport they have with their fans in order to keep themselves financially viable, so while they have the right to screw with their fans as much as they want, it has direct financial consequences.
I think the two are equatable because it ultimately comes down to desire. I may "need" toilet paper, but where do I wish to buy it? What store offers me what I want to go and purchase it? And if a particular piece of "art" isn't fulfilling my desires, then I can move on to something else the same way I can go to a store that offers better sales.
The thing is, the artist is not an altruist. I say this as someone who still aspires to successfully get something published some day. The artist does write with his audience in mind, that is true, but ultimately the artist decides what his art is and fans have to either accept it or abandon it. At no point is the artist ever obligated to his fans in any way. And he certainly isn't obligated to provide a non-revenue generating internet bathhouse for them, either.
I think that when a fan of anything purchases the product, the pact between artist and fan is complete. No artist owes the fan something for buying their product for years, the reward for the fan was the product itself. Alice Cooper doesn't owe me shit just because I go to all his concerts
You realize you're basically flying in the face of like 99% of the internet here. Not that I disagree with you, I've been saying the same thing for years, but there are entire huge communities and fandoms that basically exist because people feel they are owed something for watching Buffy for ten years or whatever.
Absolutely. I don't think that makes what I say any less valid. The entitlement complex is something I deal with pretty much every day. Gabe has a similar view; I remember when someone made a thread about the game called "The $20 problem" and Gabe eventually replied with "It's not a problem. If you think it's too much, don't buy it."
It's an argument I had over and over and over and over again when DLC was the hot button issue of the day. People were saying "Horse armour?! This is bullshit! I don't want that!" without considering that no one was forcing them to buy it. They felt like they were entitled to something even if they didn't know what it was. City Of Heroes routinely has free expansion packs released. People bitch when they're not on time, if they don't like what the new free stuff is or whatever.
And he certainly isn't obligated to provide a non-revenue generating internet bathhouse for them, either.
Certainly not, but if he does for a couple of years, and then one day tells them, "actually, gtfo!", it's pretty understandable if the people he'd invited to his internet bathhouse don't really want to buy shit from him anymore.
edit: The more I think about it, the more I think we're arguing the same thing from different perspectives. You're saying the artist has a right to say "fuck you, you don't have to buy my shit if you don't want to", and I'm saying the buyer has a right to say "fuck you, I don't have to buy your shit if you're a jerk".
I think that when a fan of anything purchases the product, the pact between artist and fan is complete. No artist owes the fan something for buying their product for years, the reward for the fan was the product itself. Alice Cooper doesn't owe me shit just because I go to all his concerts
You realize you're basically flying in the face of like 99% of the internet here. Not that I disagree with you, I've been saying the same thing for years, but there are entire huge communities and fandoms that basically exist because people feel they are owed something for watching Buffy for ten years or whatever.
Absolutely. I don't think that makes what I say any less valid. The entitlement complex is something I deal with pretty much every day. Gabe has a similar view; I remember when someone made a thread about the game called "The $20 problem" and Gabe eventually replied with "It's not a problem. If you think it's too much, don't buy it."
It's an argument I had over and over and over and over again when DLC was the hot button issue of the day. People were saying "Horse armour?! This is bullshit! I don't want that!" without considering that no one was forcing them to buy it. They felt like they were entitled to something even if they didn't know what it was. City Of Heroes routinely has free expansion packs released. People bitch when they're not on time, if they don't like what the new free stuff is or whatever.
It is entirely a generational thing and isn't tied to either the internet or commerce, either. People nowadays - gamers, geeks, and normies alike - think they are entitled to have everything they want provided for them on a silver platter, and for free, if possible. And once you give them even the tiniest window, they will reach into that window, take everything that isn't nailed down, and run the fuck away.
And he certainly isn't obligated to provide a non-revenue generating internet bathhouse for them, either.
Certainly not, but if he does for a couple of years, and then one day tells them, "actually, gtfo!", it's pretty understandable if the people he'd invited to his internet bathhouse don't really want to buy shit from him anymore.
Well, it's understandable not to feel slapped in the face, sure, and I guess it's understandable to not want to purchase from him if so, but really that's his prerogative. If he doesn't want fans with an entitlement complex, he is not obligated to cater to them.
As for me, I've been on PA since 2003. If PA permanently closes its forums tomorrow, or even today, I wouldn't be so angry as to not read PA anymore, or to keep purchasing the Precipice of Darkness games. I just don't get that.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Absolutely. I don't think that makes what I say any less valid. The entitlement complex is something I deal with pretty much every day. Gabe has a similar view; I remember when someone made a thread about the game called "The $20 problem" and Gabe eventually replied with "It's not a problem. If you think it's too much, don't buy it."
I'm just wondering what if anything can done about it. I mean, obviously we shouldn't cater to that mentality, but it seems to be almost fundamental to the way people behave on the internet. It's like, people invest a lot of time or emotional energy in something and they begin to imagine they have a stake in how it's run, and I don't know how to correct that short of encouraging everyone with an unhealthy obsession with PA or Harry Potter or whatever into therapy.
Absolutely. I don't think that makes what I say any less valid. The entitlement complex is something I deal with pretty much every day. Gabe has a similar view; I remember when someone made a thread about the game called "The $20 problem" and Gabe eventually replied with "It's not a problem. If you think it's too much, don't buy it."
I'm just wondering what if anything can done about it. I mean, obviously we shouldn't cater to that mentality, but it seems to be almost fundamental to the way people behave on the internet. It's like, people invest a lot of time or emotional energy in something and they begin to imagine they have a stake in how it's run, and I don't know how to correct that short of encouraging everyone with an unhealthy obsession with PA or Harry Potter or whatever into therapy.
We need to recognize it, get into positions where we can affect education, and then teach the next generation not to be such gobsmacks.
And he certainly isn't obligated to provide a non-revenue generating internet bathhouse for them, either.
Certainly not, but if he does for a couple of years, and then one day tells them, "actually, gtfo!", it's pretty understandable if the people he'd invited to his internet bathhouse don't really want to buy shit from him anymore.
Really though? Really? My dad take me out to lunch every week, has done for years. If next week he says "you know what son? I can't afford this any more" is he an asshole? Should I be pissed off? No! Because he doesn't fucking owe me anything! If I paid your health insurance for a couple of years and then said "sorry buddy, I can't afford your health insurance" am I an asshole? No! Because I don't owe you something just because I previously gave it to you for free. You should be thinking "hey Tube was a pretty swell guy for giving me that health insurance all those years"
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
edited November 2008
Wow, I'm glad this thread actually made it.
I agree with everyone here that he can do what he wants, However, it's obviously having an effect on him, because he's upset about it, no matter how hard he tries to hide it. I also feel that while it's his stuff, and he can cancel it at any time, when you have 200K plus fans reading your stuff, and supporting you through good times and bad times, even if your product is free, you still owe them something more than a "fuck you, I don't like what you've done to my forum." Not everyone in the forum was an asshole.
Also, the whole web hosting thing was, to me, just an excuse to pull the plug on the forum. He could have had it back up and running within 12 hours if he wanted to keep it. Using that as an excuse was in poor taste.
And he certainly isn't obligated to provide a non-revenue generating internet bathhouse for them, either.
Certainly not, but if he does for a couple of years, and then one day tells them, "actually, gtfo!", it's pretty understandable if the people he'd invited to his internet bathhouse don't really want to buy shit from him anymore.
Really though? Really? My dad take me out to lunch every week, has done for years. If next week he says "you know what son? I can't afford this any more" is he an asshole? Should I be pissed off? No! Because he doesn't fucking owe me anything! If I paid your health insurance for a couple of years and then said "sorry buddy, I can't afford your health insurance" am I an asshole? No! Because I don't owe you something just because I previously gave it to you for free. You should be thinking "hey Tube was a pretty swell guy for giving me that health insurance all those years"
Dude, I used that money that I was going to spend on health insurance on a giant TV. What the hell man, I thought you were going to keep being generous out of the goodness of your heart? Now I have to pay for my own health insurance, and I might have to sell my TV!
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And he certainly isn't obligated to provide a non-revenue generating internet bathhouse for them, either.
Certainly not, but if he does for a couple of years, and then one day tells them, "actually, gtfo!", it's pretty understandable if the people he'd invited to his internet bathhouse don't really want to buy shit from him anymore.
Really though? Really? My dad take me out to lunch every week, has done for years. If next week he says "you know what son? I can't afford this any more" is he an asshole?
If he stands you up for lunch with no warning, then calls after the fact to tell you it was because he couldn't afford it, yeah, that's kind of a dick move. If Kurtz (and the other involved parties) had said, "hey, this is costing a mint, we need you guys to either chip in or find a new hangout," that would be one thing. That doesn't sound like it's what happened here, or we wouldn't have this thread.
EDIT: Here's another thing, though. You may maintain a forum out of the goodness of your heart, but you don't start one to be a nice guy. You open a forum to build a community with the specific intent of growing your fanbase and increasing your earnings. That ain't really the same as paying somebody's health insurance for no other reason than you love them.
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BobCescaIs a girlBirmingham, UKRegistered Userregular
edited November 2008
If PA forums no longer existed I'd be pissed, but not at the PA Staff.
It'd be a personal thing, about not being able to chat with people who are kind of friends ('cos it's that stange relationship where you know shit-loads about each other, but don't really have any kind of relationship outside of the forums), not being able to debate important stuff with people who aren't retards (and enjoying laughing at those who are), etc. etc.
I'd be in that horrible position where I had to find somewhere else and start all over again, but there'd be no anger towards the PA Staff 'cos I know that I'm getting an amazing service for fuck all money. and that rocks.
This Kurtz guy could have maybe gone about it in a better way, but it's his choice.
Absolutely. I don't think that makes what I say any less valid. The entitlement complex is something I deal with pretty much every day. Gabe has a similar view; I remember when someone made a thread about the game called "The $20 problem" and Gabe eventually replied with "It's not a problem. If you think it's too much, don't buy it."
I'm just wondering what if anything can done about it. I mean, obviously we shouldn't cater to that mentality, but it seems to be almost fundamental to the way people behave on the internet. It's like, people invest a lot of time or emotional energy in something and they begin to imagine they have a stake in how it's run, and I don't know how to correct that short of encouraging everyone with an unhealthy obsession with PA or Harry Potter or whatever into therapy.
It's not a problem. The internet is a vocal minority. Let's say Gabe changes his type of paintbrush or whatever and it's a big thing on the forums. For it to be a big thing, let's say 30% of the forum are up in arms about it, 30% think it's great and the rest don't care. Should we be worried about that 30%? Shit no. Just because they're making a lot of noise doesn't mean they're a big deal.
Look how many people loudly talk about how much they hate the simpsons and how much it sucks now (it does by the way, the internet is totally right about that). Do you think the populace as a whole knows that? Shit no. The Simpsons, I'm pretty sure, still gets extremely healthy ratings. Most Buffy fans don't go on the internet and say how much it sucks or is great or whatever. Only the really obsessive ones do, the ones most likely to nitpick.
Also, the whole web hosting thing was, to me, just an excuse to pull the plug on the forum. He could have had it back up and running within 12 hours if he wanted to keep it. Using that as an excuse was in poor taste.
Where exactly are you getting your inside knowledge of PVP's finances? I'm honestly interested in how you know more about it than Scott does.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
you still owe them something more than a "fuck you, I don't like what you've done to my forum."
No, I'm with Tube on this. Webcomics like PVP and PA are a business, regardless of the nature of the product being sold. Hell, even Dell has fanboys, but when you finish paying off that $4000 gaming rig, can you call them up and say "Hey, remember when I paid off that computer? Well now I want YOU to do a favor for ME." It doesn't work like that.
Without knowing the details of the PVP forums since I only went there once a long time ago and was instantly lost I can say this: The location of the forum is incidental, despite that previous post about a community shelter. The people calling Kurtz a cock for shutting down his forum that was costing an only vaguely associated business money have the exact same ability as Kurtz to run a forum. If they truly believe they deserve a forum they have no more work to do than anyone else to set one up.
I can spend 5 minutes and secure a large scale open forum. Hell, it took less time than that to set up a completely free guild website for the D&D WoW guild, complete with their own forums. What the fuck are we talking about here? This is like getting pissed because the company you work for stopped having a candy dish on the receptionist's counter. Buy your own goddamn candy if it means that much to you!.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
EDIT: Here's another thing, though. You may maintain a forum out of the goodness of your heart, but you don't start one to be a nice guy. You open a forum to build a community with the specific intent of growing your fanbase and increasing your earnings. That ain't really the same as paying somebody's health insurance for no other reason than you love them.
EDIT: My argument is less significant when I read your post in it's entirety. :P
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The traffic of the forum compared to the main site is utterly, utterly insignificant.
I empathize with people who get upset though. People develop an emotional attachment to the communities they join, online or offline. It's hard to see it broken up.
I can't believe you just said those people are replaceable. Shed a tear for the hearts your have torn asunder!
Well not the exact same, but the general personalities are.
I own a "Shut your pie hole" T, and it's the best investment I've ever made.
Someone can make a new forum on their own dime and time and the users can migrate.
Or not.
Don't care about the chat thread, but I'd still like to see the mega threads come back, you cold, calloused, heartless, bastard.
They were bastards.
I just think its a matter tact of how to go about it. Even if there is a part of a community that is not very profitable, a lot of those people supported the comic book creators since the dawn of man, and while they are not owed anything, giving them a finger is not... nice.
But at the same time, people latch and leech and then feel they are owed something. I don't really believe an artist owes any fan any damn thing.
I think this really goes to a fundamental psychological issue, though, and really has little to do with Kurtz himself. Human beings simply dislike being displaced. It doesn't really matter to them that they have no ownership or control over the shelter being provided for them. They conflate the community with the location, and for good reason, because they are married to each other.
The question is whether or not the host of a particular community shelter is responsible for maintaining the shelter once that community develops. You can almost think of it as a developing fetus. The difference being that there is no age or size or stage of development at which the community itself can detach from the shelter and continue to exist (except to find another shelter and dislocate the community to said shelter, such as splinter groups have done here in the past as in TTB, Technorati, and that other god-awful one I won't even name).
The community only exists while the shelter exists, at least in online situations. You can move the community, but that's difficult and troublesome.
However, I don't feel the provider of an essentially altruistic service is under any obligation to or has any responsibility toward fostering any community that springs up around his personality, particularly if it costs him or her money.
That's pretty much the whole of it. Gabe and Tycho could shut us down on a whim, it'd just suck in comparison to them giving us a few days notice so that the regulars could find a new place to maek poast or something.
I went to PAX twice, bought a number of shirts, and even though I don't have access to any super-secret forums, I did donate $5 to the site a long, long time ago.
The PA forums have created for me: a fiancee, IRL friends, and more knowledge about politics than most of the people I know, among other things. I still feel I should give Jerry and Mike more money, but unfortunately I have almost none to give.
The owner has the absolute right to shut it down if it doesnt suit his goals anymore, its his money and work after all. But to soy that the artist does not owe its public anything is a bit disingenuous, especially since the fandom is their source of revenue. It is a symbiotic relationship, after all.
Of course I get in free and go backstage because I'm awesome but the point is valid.
Also, the comic is the best on the net, I like Ctrl Alt Del when he is on the mark, Sinfest has it's moments and PBF was great while it was around but no other comic holds up to the consistency of PA, I love seeing how well Mike's art as evolved, guy is awfull skilled.
Fans like to think it is, but it really isn't. Unless you consider all businesses where goods or services are traded "symbiotic." I mean, do I have a symbiotic relationship with my deli? Are they obligated to post sales on milk and eggs every week to keep my business?
The buyer-seller relationship is symbiotic by its very nature, but I guess what you're driving at is, "if I have a relationship with a company, should they give me added value in exchange for my loyalty". In the case of a deli, if you're in there every day, it probably isn't a bad idea for them to kick in a free drink with your sandwich every now and again -- usually done in the form of some coupons included with your purchase.
But you're comparing the inherent value of goods and services with the subjective value of art. Art is only valuable if people find it pleasing, and a lot of that goes with the back story of the art and the artists. The lead singer of one of my favorite bands was an asshole to me at a bar once, and it left a bad taste in my mouth, so I stopped buying their shit. Artists and creatives very much depend on the rapport they have with their fans in order to keep themselves financially viable, so while they have the right to screw with their fans as much as they want, it has direct financial consequences.
You realize you're basically flying in the face of like 99% of the internet here. Not that I disagree with you, I've been saying the same thing for years, but there are entire huge communities and fandoms that basically exist because people feel they are owed something for watching Buffy for ten years or whatever.
Just because the entire world has an entitlement complex doesn't mean Tube is wrong or that he shouldn't state the truth.
I think the two are equatable because it ultimately comes down to desire. I may "need" toilet paper, but where do I wish to buy it? What store offers me what I want to go and purchase it? And if a particular piece of "art" isn't fulfilling my desires, then I can move on to something else the same way I can go to a store that offers better sales.
The thing is, the artist is not an altruist. I say this as someone who still aspires to successfully get something published some day. The artist does write with his audience in mind, that is true, but ultimately the artist decides what his art is and fans have to either accept it or abandon it. At no point is the artist ever obligated to his fans in any way. And he certainly isn't obligated to provide a non-revenue generating internet bathhouse for them, either.
Absolutely. I don't think that makes what I say any less valid. The entitlement complex is something I deal with pretty much every day. Gabe has a similar view; I remember when someone made a thread about the game called "The $20 problem" and Gabe eventually replied with "It's not a problem. If you think it's too much, don't buy it."
It's an argument I had over and over and over and over again when DLC was the hot button issue of the day. People were saying "Horse armour?! This is bullshit! I don't want that!" without considering that no one was forcing them to buy it. They felt like they were entitled to something even if they didn't know what it was. City Of Heroes routinely has free expansion packs released. People bitch when they're not on time, if they don't like what the new free stuff is or whatever.
Certainly not, but if he does for a couple of years, and then one day tells them, "actually, gtfo!", it's pretty understandable if the people he'd invited to his internet bathhouse don't really want to buy shit from him anymore.
edit: The more I think about it, the more I think we're arguing the same thing from different perspectives. You're saying the artist has a right to say "fuck you, you don't have to buy my shit if you don't want to", and I'm saying the buyer has a right to say "fuck you, I don't have to buy your shit if you're a jerk".
It is entirely a generational thing and isn't tied to either the internet or commerce, either. People nowadays - gamers, geeks, and normies alike - think they are entitled to have everything they want provided for them on a silver platter, and for free, if possible. And once you give them even the tiniest window, they will reach into that window, take everything that isn't nailed down, and run the fuck away.
It's now cinched that I'm buying my Sodomite a PA shirt this year.
Well, it's understandable not to feel slapped in the face, sure, and I guess it's understandable to not want to purchase from him if so, but really that's his prerogative. If he doesn't want fans with an entitlement complex, he is not obligated to cater to them.
As for me, I've been on PA since 2003. If PA permanently closes its forums tomorrow, or even today, I wouldn't be so angry as to not read PA anymore, or to keep purchasing the Precipice of Darkness games. I just don't get that.
I'm just wondering what if anything can done about it. I mean, obviously we shouldn't cater to that mentality, but it seems to be almost fundamental to the way people behave on the internet. It's like, people invest a lot of time or emotional energy in something and they begin to imagine they have a stake in how it's run, and I don't know how to correct that short of encouraging everyone with an unhealthy obsession with PA or Harry Potter or whatever into therapy.
We need to recognize it, get into positions where we can affect education, and then teach the next generation not to be such gobsmacks.
Really though? Really? My dad take me out to lunch every week, has done for years. If next week he says "you know what son? I can't afford this any more" is he an asshole? Should I be pissed off? No! Because he doesn't fucking owe me anything! If I paid your health insurance for a couple of years and then said "sorry buddy, I can't afford your health insurance" am I an asshole? No! Because I don't owe you something just because I previously gave it to you for free. You should be thinking "hey Tube was a pretty swell guy for giving me that health insurance all those years"
I agree with everyone here that he can do what he wants, However, it's obviously having an effect on him, because he's upset about it, no matter how hard he tries to hide it. I also feel that while it's his stuff, and he can cancel it at any time, when you have 200K plus fans reading your stuff, and supporting you through good times and bad times, even if your product is free, you still owe them something more than a "fuck you, I don't like what you've done to my forum." Not everyone in the forum was an asshole.
Also, the whole web hosting thing was, to me, just an excuse to pull the plug on the forum. He could have had it back up and running within 12 hours if he wanted to keep it. Using that as an excuse was in poor taste.
Dude, I used that money that I was going to spend on health insurance on a giant TV. What the hell man, I thought you were going to keep being generous out of the goodness of your heart? Now I have to pay for my own health insurance, and I might have to sell my TV!
analolgy
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
If he stands you up for lunch with no warning, then calls after the fact to tell you it was because he couldn't afford it, yeah, that's kind of a dick move. If Kurtz (and the other involved parties) had said, "hey, this is costing a mint, we need you guys to either chip in or find a new hangout," that would be one thing. That doesn't sound like it's what happened here, or we wouldn't have this thread.
EDIT: Here's another thing, though. You may maintain a forum out of the goodness of your heart, but you don't start one to be a nice guy. You open a forum to build a community with the specific intent of growing your fanbase and increasing your earnings. That ain't really the same as paying somebody's health insurance for no other reason than you love them.
It'd be a personal thing, about not being able to chat with people who are kind of friends ('cos it's that stange relationship where you know shit-loads about each other, but don't really have any kind of relationship outside of the forums), not being able to debate important stuff with people who aren't retards (and enjoying laughing at those who are), etc. etc.
I'd be in that horrible position where I had to find somewhere else and start all over again, but there'd be no anger towards the PA Staff 'cos I know that I'm getting an amazing service for fuck all money. and that rocks.
This Kurtz guy could have maybe gone about it in a better way, but it's his choice.
It's not a problem. The internet is a vocal minority. Let's say Gabe changes his type of paintbrush or whatever and it's a big thing on the forums. For it to be a big thing, let's say 30% of the forum are up in arms about it, 30% think it's great and the rest don't care. Should we be worried about that 30%? Shit no. Just because they're making a lot of noise doesn't mean they're a big deal.
Look how many people loudly talk about how much they hate the simpsons and how much it sucks now (it does by the way, the internet is totally right about that). Do you think the populace as a whole knows that? Shit no. The Simpsons, I'm pretty sure, still gets extremely healthy ratings. Most Buffy fans don't go on the internet and say how much it sucks or is great or whatever. Only the really obsessive ones do, the ones most likely to nitpick.
Where exactly are you getting your inside knowledge of PVP's finances? I'm honestly interested in how you know more about it than Scott does.
No, I'm with Tube on this. Webcomics like PVP and PA are a business, regardless of the nature of the product being sold. Hell, even Dell has fanboys, but when you finish paying off that $4000 gaming rig, can you call them up and say "Hey, remember when I paid off that computer? Well now I want YOU to do a favor for ME." It doesn't work like that.
Without knowing the details of the PVP forums since I only went there once a long time ago and was instantly lost I can say this: The location of the forum is incidental, despite that previous post about a community shelter. The people calling Kurtz a cock for shutting down his forum that was costing an only vaguely associated business money have the exact same ability as Kurtz to run a forum. If they truly believe they deserve a forum they have no more work to do than anyone else to set one up.
I can spend 5 minutes and secure a large scale open forum. Hell, it took less time than that to set up a completely free guild website for the D&D WoW guild, complete with their own forums. What the fuck are we talking about here? This is like getting pissed because the company you work for stopped having a candy dish on the receptionist's counter. Buy your own goddamn candy if it means that much to you!.
EDIT: My argument is less significant when I read your post in it's entirety. :P