Like I said, I haven't done a 2h DPS spec in a while, and when I did, I wasn't leveled enough for my spec to pick up MoM. That, combined with the Blade of Demonstrable Power, might start hitting in the 5k range. Maybe.
There's also the factor that HB hits in an AoE, of course. If you care about AoE at all, which most raiders don't except on a few fights.
Maybe not with cinderglacier procs, but obliterate should definitely be the higher dps single-target ability. Maybe not on non-crits, but Obliterate has a massively boosted crit, like 26 or 27% that Howling Blast doesn't get, and I do believe that obliterate will scale better, at least if you have the glyph for it.
Thing is, HB has an increased crit rate, at least statistically, through Killing Machine.
I have something like 18% crit in my terribad DPS gear (not enough into blood for the improved crit - I ducked into Unholy for Necrosis and Blood-Caked Blade), and it usually pops up about half the time before I HB. I imagine that once I actually get a decent crit rate it'll be up a ton more.
Yeah, I was talking about standard frost dps, not a dual-wielding tri-spec. For the latter, you avoid obliterate at all costs. 2 hander specs should probably not take killing machine at all.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Because bone shield is the best talent for tanking when you get a decent amount of avoidance?
Because Anti-magic zone is a fuckton of mitigated damage?
He said 30 points into Unholy.
Tell me how in holy fuck you get AMZ and Bone Shield with only 30 points in Unholy.
Edit: Wait, nevermind, he's 10 points short.
...he said imp rune tap + lich borne. Which would be 18/11/42.
I already admitted to not picking up that he wasn't including all of his points in his "10/20/30" build that picks up "all the goods." Which doesn't pick up Improved Rune Tap, so I'm guessing that was a mistake on his part.
Oh you misunderstood his post. He was saying that he was really happy that blizzard didn't require that sort of build. He was glad that each tree was sufficient for tanking and some goofy spec was not required.
Munkus Beaver on
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Because bone shield is the best talent for tanking when you get a decent amount of avoidance?
Because Anti-magic zone is a fuckton of mitigated damage?
He said 30 points into Unholy.
Tell me how in holy fuck you get AMZ and Bone Shield with only 30 points in Unholy.
Edit: Wait, nevermind, he's 10 points short.
...he said imp rune tap + lich borne. Which would be 18/11/42.
I already admitted to not picking up that he wasn't including all of his points in his "10/20/30" build that picks up "all the goods." Which doesn't pick up Improved Rune Tap, so I'm guessing that was a mistake on his part.
Oh you misunderstood his post. He was saying that he was really happy that blizzard didn't require that sort of build. He was glad that each tree was sufficient for tanking and some goofy spec was not required.
kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited December 2008
So I'm trying a frost pvp oriented build while waiting on my friend to level. I'm at 77 and I'll probably take unbreakable/hungering cold/dark conviction if I actually gain three more levels as this build. Maybe deathchill instead of unbreakable.
I like blood a lot and will probably go that way long term, but good god this shit is crazy in world pvp/battlegrounds. This build truly fucks anyone up that isn't optimized around pvp. It doesn't feel like there are any hard targets.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
So I'm trying a frost pvp oriented build while waiting on my friend to level. I'm at 77 and I'll probably take unbreakable/hungering cold/dark conviction if I actually gain three more levels as this build. Maybe deathchill instead of unbreakable.
I like blood a lot and will probably go that way long term, but good god this shit is crazy in world pvp/battlegrounds. This build truly fucks anyone up that isn't optimized around pvp. It doesn't feel like there are any hard targets.
Bad build. Killing machine is absolutely retarded for a PvP spec. Going without hungering cold and unbreakable armor? Bad bad bad. Chilbains is amazing, you need frostfever up on your target anyway to have your hard hitting diseases hit hard anyway.
Munkus Beaver on
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Not many people have resilience right now anyway so KMachine is fine, no Unbreakable Armor for PvP, woopdie do? Build looks fine to me, he already said he didn't use Icy Touch, if you're spamming Chains of Ice it's really not a big deal.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited December 2008
It's hard enough to get into melee with a lot of classes, and even then you're going to have less than 30% crit on your auto attacks which will swing, optimally, at 3.6. On top of that, you only get a 50% chance to crit with those abilities if you do score the auto-attack crit! Plus people will be getting a lot of resil real soon, once the new pvp gear is buyable.
Chilbains will affect everything that has frostfever up. So if you use use hungering cold or pestilence, BAM, a lot of people are suddenly feeling the cold. Plus he specc'd into Rime. Not using icy touch at all means that those points were spent exclusively to boost obliterate crit.
Unbreakable armor boosts STR and armor. There are two abilities that he has specc'd into that affect armor, one of which boosts ATP by the amount of armor he has. That's a lot of boost for just one talent point.
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
It's hard enough to get into melee with a lot of classes, and even then you're going to have less than 30% crit on your auto attacks which will swing, optimally, at 3.6. On top of that, you only get a 50% chance to crit with those abilities if you do score the auto-attack crit! Plus people will be getting a lot of resil real soon, once the new pvp gear is buyable.
Chilbains will affect everything that has frostfever up. So if you use use hungering cold or pestilence, BAM, a lot of people are suddenly feeling the cold. Plus he specc'd into Rime. Not using icy touch at all means that those points were spent exclusively to boost obliterate crit.
Unbreakable armor boosts STR and armor. There are two abilities that he has specc'd into that affect armor, one of which boosts ATP by the amount of armor he has. That's a lot of boost for just one talent point.
unbreakable isn't really a dps boost if I'm sacrificing frost runes
killing machine is great in my bracket
I don't get many chances to use pestilence effectively in pvp. I don't think I've cast it yet.
Meh, it's a fun build for pre-80 mooks. I still prefer blood pve.
Now that i'm back at work i'll confirm it heh. I was infact saying i'm glad i didn't have to spec like that. not that i was glad i could STILL spec like that. Sorry for the confusion.
It's hard enough to get into melee with a lot of classes, and even then you're going to have less than 30% crit on your auto attacks which will swing, optimally, at 3.6. On top of that, you only get a 50% chance to crit with those abilities if you do score the auto-attack crit! Plus people will be getting a lot of resil real soon, once the new pvp gear is buyable.
Chilbains will affect everything that has frostfever up. So if you use use hungering cold or pestilence, BAM, a lot of people are suddenly feeling the cold. Plus he specc'd into Rime. Not using icy touch at all means that those points were spent exclusively to boost obliterate crit.
Unbreakable armor boosts STR and armor. There are two abilities that he has specc'd into that affect armor, one of which boosts ATP by the amount of armor he has. That's a lot of boost for just one talent point.
Chillblains wasn't working with Pestilence last time I was playing. The resilience point is still moo since he's lvl 77.
So I respec'd into a Frost dps build last night. This build is going to be for heroics, 10 mans, and occasional PvP. I really enjoyed it last night although it took some getting used to. In Obsidian Temple (or whatever it's called, the 10 and 25 man raids against the dragon Sarathian) I was 8th in dps for the 25 man, and 4th on the 10 man. I know some people don't like icy talons very much for some reason, but it's a pretty solid raid buff against things that aren't immune to it.
I'm happy with those numbers because the people I was up against were people in nearly full epics who have been running heroics and naxx as much as they can for the last two weeks while I was still leveling.
Number 1 on DPS both times (10 and 25 man) was an unholy DK who hit 80 around the same time as I did, but has probably twice the /played that I do and has at least 7 epics whereas I have none. The fights in there are also a bit biased towards unholy because of unholy blight and wandering plague, there's a lot of potential AoE in there. Anyways, with raid buffs in my blues and greens I was hitting between 2000-2400dps. I went and got a new weapon last night too after the raids, Edge of Oblivion.
They just don't seem worthwhile to me. I think killing machine is pretty worthless to be honest. I'll check my numbers again next time (might get naxx tonight), but with raid buffs and other talents I was critting on icy touch frost strike and howling blast an incredible amount, enough that I'm not sure the 5 points on killing machine is worth it at all.
Merciless combat looks alright, but the only points I'd be willing to drop for it would be chilblains which are rather useless for pve, but like I said I plan on pvping with this build along with pveing.
Anyone else doing DK tanking having a hell of a time reaching the defense cap? I am doing everything I can and STILL am not capped (using heroic / badge) gear. Not having denfense on the 2hrs seems way too constraining, I have to use sub-par avoidance gear for pure +defense.
Maybe I should look into dual wield tanking with the +defense items...
Anyone else doing DK tanking having a hell of a time reaching the defense cap? I am doing everything I can and STILL am not capped (using heroic / badge) gear. Not having denfense on the 2hrs seems way too constraining, I have to use sub-par avoidance gear for pure +defense.
Maybe I should look into dual wield tanking with the +defense items...
I kind of get the idea that that was what was originally intended. For most DK tanks to go frost and DW, but it doesn't really work as well as it should.
Anyone else doing DK tanking having a hell of a time reaching the defense cap? I am doing everything I can and STILL am not capped (using heroic / badge) gear. Not having denfense on the 2hrs seems way too constraining, I have to use sub-par avoidance gear for pure +defense.
Maybe I should look into dual wield tanking with the +defense items...
I kind of get the idea that that was what was originally intended. For most DK tanks to go frost and DW, but it doesn't really work as well as it should.
I'm reasonably sure Blizz hasn't made any specific attempt to make dual-wielding better anywhere, for DKs. They've probably explicitly said this too, in regards to tanking with a 2 hander.
i seem to remember a blue post before release saying that the intention was for DKs to tank with DPS 2handers. However since the design and itemization guys never speak, EVER. we're left to pick up the slack. WTB defense sigil PST.
Anyone else doing DK tanking having a hell of a time reaching the defense cap? I am doing everything I can and STILL am not capped (using heroic / badge) gear. Not having denfense on the 2hrs seems way too constraining, I have to use sub-par avoidance gear for pure +defense.
Maybe I should look into dual wield tanking with the +defense items...
I kind of get the idea that that was what was originally intended. For most DK tanks to go frost and DW, but it doesn't really work as well as it should.
Anyone else doing DK tanking having a hell of a time reaching the defense cap? I am doing everything I can and STILL am not capped (using heroic / badge) gear. Not having denfense on the 2hrs seems way too constraining, I have to use sub-par avoidance gear for pure +defense.
Maybe I should look into dual wield tanking with the +defense items...
I kind of get the idea that that was what was originally intended. For most DK tanks to go frost and DW, but it doesn't really work as well as it should.
I'm reasonably sure Blizz hasn't made any specific attempt to make dual-wielding better anywhere, for DKs. They've probably explicitly said this too, in regards to tanking with a 2 hander.
It's a talent that is there for people who want to dual wield? It's not like it's an amazing talent that trumps all others so that it is very obvious you are supposed to DW tank as Frost.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That it looks like initially in development they made some talents to benefit tanking as DW (and itemization supports this), but then somewhere along the line they changed their minds but didn't update the items and left in some talents that don't make a lot of sense.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That it looks like initially in development they made some talents to benefit tanking as DW (and itemization supports this), but then somewhere along the line they changed their minds but didn't update the items and left in some talents that don't make a lot of sense.
Except the frost tree is not the tanking tree. So I don't know why the placement there, indicates that it's there for tanking. I think it's there, because that's the tree with the attack speed buff, which goes hand in hand with dual-wield dpsing.
Considering it's a second tier talent, it barely even qualifies as "being there" for some specific reason, it's available to anyone of any talent spec if they want it.
I don't know how you could ever have trouble hitting the defense cap. I could see having trouble hitting the defense cap AND getting all the avoidance and stam you want, but even just throwing on the crafted BS stuff will pretty much get you there, and you can gradually replace defense gems, etc. as you get epics.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited December 2008
Blizz has outright said that they intend to have 2H tanking superior to DW. DW is only a consideration after you touch down all three trees in a tri-spec. Yet I still see people trying to DW tank. Frustrating. No, you can not reach the hitcap and the defense cap at the same time hargle bargle.
Seriously though. I have not seen one frost DK who was using a 2Hander.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Blizz has outright said that they intend to have 2H tanking superior to DW. DW is only a consideration after you touch down all three trees in a tri-spec. Yet I still see people trying to DW tank. Frustrating. No, you can not reach the hitcap and the defense cap at the same time hargle bargle.
Seriously though. I have not seen one frost DK who was using a 2Hander.
If it counts for anything, I'm a frost DK using a 2hander.
I'm still only 76 on my DK, and I really have no intention of being a full time tank.
But has anyone seen/heard of a DK main tank anything besides 5 mans? I'm utterly convinced that we'll be OTs at most, but then again I'm only 76 what do I know.
I'm still only 76 on my DK, and I really have no intention of being a full time tank.
But has anyone seen/heard of a DK main tank anything besides 5 mans? I'm utterly convinced that we'll be OTs at most, but then again I'm only 76 what do I know.
Our DK tank is currently our only main tank in Naxx25, because he's got the best mitigation.
However, we're pretty far from clearing Naxx25, since our other tanks aren't nearly well geared enough.
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I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
Blizz has outright said that they intend to have 2H tanking superior to DW. DW is only a consideration after you touch down all three trees in a tri-spec. Yet I still see people trying to DW tank. Frustrating. No, you can not reach the hitcap and the defense cap at the same time hargle bargle.
Seriously though. I have not seen one frost DK who was using a 2Hander.
Frost doesn't seem to be getting as much love as Unholy, seeing as Unholy is kind of "the best" at tanking and DPS at the moment.
But any serious frost tanking or DPS build requires a 2her for the same reason that MS warriors use twohanders--strikes bases on weapon damage.
Also, it's starting to look like the preferred Frost DPS rotation is (blood tap for death rune) IT>BS>OB>OB>FS dump/IT>OB>BS>OB>FS dump.
Plague strike does shit dmg and the extra OB every rotation does more damage than the extra BS, PS, and resulting Blood Plague. This scales better and takes off at epic gear levels because it gives you two OBs and FSs every rotation as opposed to every other rotation.
Yeah, I'm a bit torn on PS for my frost dps rotation. Because the only thing it does is help with obliterate damage bonus, and the blood plague itself. But if you have glyph of oblit, this is less of an issue. But what else are you going to spend that unholy rune on?
Also right now, my howling blast hits as hard or harder than oblit, but I just upgraded my weapon and haven't had a chance to really see how much of a difference it makes.
So the defense cap is kinda annoying to get but really not that hard. If you've been working on your wrymrest rep, you get cloak, boots and a chestpiece at honored and revered.
Anyone else notice the lack of dk tanks on your respective servers? I see on of the dk's in our guild spam for a heroic tank, yet won't tank for the group due to a lack of gear. I call him out on it and he just says he needs to run the instances to get the gear. Yet I'm sitting on a decent tank set at level 79.
Blizz has outright said that they intend to have 2H tanking superior to DW. DW is only a consideration after you touch down all three trees in a tri-spec. Yet I still see people trying to DW tank. Frustrating. No, you can not reach the hitcap and the defense cap at the same time hargle bargle.
Seriously though. I have not seen one frost DK who was using a 2Hander.
Frost doesn't seem to be getting as much love as Unholy, seeing as Unholy is kind of "the best" at tanking and DPS at the moment.
But any serious frost tanking or DPS build requires a 2her for the same reason that MS warriors use twohanders--strikes bases on weapon damage.
Also, it's starting to look like the preferred Frost DPS rotation is (blood tap for death rune) IT>BS>OB>OB>FS dump/IT>OB>BS>OB>FS dump.
Plague strike does shit dmg and the extra OB every rotation does more damage than the extra BS, PS, and resulting Blood Plague. This scales better and takes off at epic gear levels because it gives you two OBs and FSs every rotation as opposed to every other rotation.
Still in testing though.
Why got IT then BS instead of throwing in a PS? You are missing a dot as well as the extra damage granted from having another disease on them.
So the defense cap is kinda annoying to get but really not that hard. If you've been working on your wrymrest rep, you get cloak, boots and a chestpiece at honored and revered.
Anyone else notice the lack of dk tanks on your respective servers? I see on of the dk's in our guild spam for a heroic tank, yet won't tank for the group due to a lack of gear. I call him out on it and he just says he needs to run the instances to get the gear. Yet I'm sitting on a decent tank set at level 79.
When I hit 80 my guild told me they're set on tanks, I didn't argue and went dps. I think right now a lot of people on a lot of servers don't think that DKs can tank as effectively as any other tank. Better in some cases.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Blizz has outright said that they intend to have 2H tanking superior to DW. DW is only a consideration after you touch down all three trees in a tri-spec. Yet I still see people trying to DW tank. Frustrating. No, you can not reach the hitcap and the defense cap at the same time hargle bargle.
Seriously though. I have not seen one frost DK who was using a 2Hander.
Frost doesn't seem to be getting as much love as Unholy, seeing as Unholy is kind of "the best" at tanking and DPS at the moment.
But any serious frost tanking or DPS build requires a 2her for the same reason that MS warriors use twohanders--strikes bases on weapon damage.
Also, it's starting to look like the preferred Frost DPS rotation is (blood tap for death rune) IT>BS>OB>OB>FS dump/IT>OB>BS>OB>FS dump.
Plague strike does shit dmg and the extra OB every rotation does more damage than the extra BS, PS, and resulting Blood Plague. This scales better and takes off at epic gear levels because it gives you two OBs and FSs every rotation as opposed to every other rotation.
Still in testing though.
Why got IT then BS instead of throwing in a PS? You are missing a dot as well as the extra damage granted from having another disease on them.
You clearly did not read anything that he just said.
Munkus Beaver on
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There's also the factor that HB hits in an AoE, of course. If you care about AoE at all, which most raiders don't except on a few fights.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
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Yeah, I was talking about standard frost dps, not a dual-wielding tri-spec. For the latter, you avoid obliterate at all costs. 2 hander specs should probably not take killing machine at all.
Oh you misunderstood his post. He was saying that he was really happy that blizzard didn't require that sort of build. He was glad that each tree was sufficient for tanking and some goofy spec was not required.
Ah.
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I like blood a lot and will probably go that way long term, but good god this shit is crazy in world pvp/battlegrounds. This build truly fucks anyone up that isn't optimized around pvp. It doesn't feel like there are any hard targets.
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I don't use icy touch like ever
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Bad build. Killing machine is absolutely retarded for a PvP spec. Going without hungering cold and unbreakable armor? Bad bad bad. Chilbains is amazing, you need frostfever up on your target anyway to have your hard hitting diseases hit hard anyway.
Chilbains will affect everything that has frostfever up. So if you use use hungering cold or pestilence, BAM, a lot of people are suddenly feeling the cold. Plus he specc'd into Rime. Not using icy touch at all means that those points were spent exclusively to boost obliterate crit.
Unbreakable armor boosts STR and armor. There are two abilities that he has specc'd into that affect armor, one of which boosts ATP by the amount of armor he has. That's a lot of boost for just one talent point.
unbreakable isn't really a dps boost if I'm sacrificing frost runes
killing machine is great in my bracket
I don't get many chances to use pestilence effectively in pvp. I don't think I've cast it yet.
Meh, it's a fun build for pre-80 mooks. I still prefer blood pve.
Chillblains wasn't working with Pestilence last time I was playing. The resilience point is still moo since he's lvl 77.
I'm happy with those numbers because the people I was up against were people in nearly full epics who have been running heroics and naxx as much as they can for the last two weeks while I was still leveling.
Number 1 on DPS both times (10 and 25 man) was an unholy DK who hit 80 around the same time as I did, but has probably twice the /played that I do and has at least 7 epics whereas I have none. The fights in there are also a bit biased towards unholy because of unholy blight and wandering plague, there's a lot of potential AoE in there. Anyways, with raid buffs in my blues and greens I was hitting between 2000-2400dps. I went and got a new weapon last night too after the raids, Edge of Oblivion.
Merciless combat looks alright, but the only points I'd be willing to drop for it would be chilblains which are rather useless for pve, but like I said I plan on pvping with this build along with pveing.
I'm not sure what spec I'm going to end up with once I hit 80. It is nice to see 2k crits at level 66.
Maybe I should look into dual wield tanking with the +defense items...
I kind of get the idea that that was what was originally intended. For most DK tanks to go frost and DW, but it doesn't really work as well as it should.
I'm reasonably sure Blizz hasn't made any specific attempt to make dual-wielding better anywhere, for DKs. They've probably explicitly said this too, in regards to tanking with a 2 hander.
Uhhh... no.
Then what's the deal with nerves of cold steel?
Except the frost tree is not the tanking tree. So I don't know why the placement there, indicates that it's there for tanking. I think it's there, because that's the tree with the attack speed buff, which goes hand in hand with dual-wield dpsing.
Seriously though. I have not seen one frost DK who was using a 2Hander.
If it counts for anything, I'm a frost DK using a 2hander.
But has anyone seen/heard of a DK main tank anything besides 5 mans? I'm utterly convinced that we'll be OTs at most, but then again I'm only 76 what do I know.
Our DK tank is currently our only main tank in Naxx25, because he's got the best mitigation.
However, we're pretty far from clearing Naxx25, since our other tanks aren't nearly well geared enough.
Frost doesn't seem to be getting as much love as Unholy, seeing as Unholy is kind of "the best" at tanking and DPS at the moment.
But any serious frost tanking or DPS build requires a 2her for the same reason that MS warriors use twohanders--strikes bases on weapon damage.
Also, it's starting to look like the preferred Frost DPS rotation is (blood tap for death rune) IT>BS>OB>OB>FS dump/IT>OB>BS>OB>FS dump.
Plague strike does shit dmg and the extra OB every rotation does more damage than the extra BS, PS, and resulting Blood Plague. This scales better and takes off at epic gear levels because it gives you two OBs and FSs every rotation as opposed to every other rotation.
Still in testing though.
Also right now, my howling blast hits as hard or harder than oblit, but I just upgraded my weapon and haven't had a chance to really see how much of a difference it makes.
Anyone else notice the lack of dk tanks on your respective servers? I see on of the dk's in our guild spam for a heroic tank, yet won't tank for the group due to a lack of gear. I call him out on it and he just says he needs to run the instances to get the gear. Yet I'm sitting on a decent tank set at level 79.
Why got IT then BS instead of throwing in a PS? You are missing a dot as well as the extra damage granted from having another disease on them.
When I hit 80 my guild told me they're set on tanks, I didn't argue and went dps. I think right now a lot of people on a lot of servers don't think that DKs can tank as effectively as any other tank. Better in some cases.