Planescape did not involve everyone using their voices.
@Darkwarrior: So, if the player's trying to figure out, let's say, trying to zoom in with his rifle to see a detail, and accidently shoots a citizen, he should be permanently and irrevocably punished for it?
I can honestly say I've never accidentally shot anyone, you perhaps need a different mouse. That said, the people in Fallout 3 seem overly protective of each other, thats aflaw in the game design because capping someone in Megaton unless its someone of importance should only turn their particularly close allies against you, not an entire town and if you're at a certain level, people should be afraid of delaing with you.
But yes, if you go around killing lots of people, you shouldn'tbe able to go back and chill out.
@Operative
I'm not going counting but I'd put the number of unique NPCs in Bloodlines against the number of unique, meaningful NPCs (They do more than have a name) in Fallout 3 any day. Any NPC in Bloodlines is about 5 Fallout 3 NPCs.
And I'd also take text with some voice over full voice with fuck all dialogue.
What I want to see an RPG do is rip off the sims communication system.
There's very little scripted dialogue.. just a set of topics and reactions, and npcs communicate things with this system. If you kept it simple enough you could even have news "spread" because it would be easy enough to track what each NPC has heard about. You stab a dude in the back and it gets witnessed, you have a couple minutes to escape before the news reaches local law enforcement and the chase is on.
I imagine a lot of "hardcore" RPG players would hate it, but I think as a social experiment it would be fascinating.
Comparing Bloodlines and Fallout 3 is apples to oranges. They're both RPGs sure, but they're very different kinds of RPGs with very different design goals. Bloodlines is very linear and limits what you can and can't do significantly.
In Fallout as soon as you exit the vault you can go just about anywhere and kill just about anyone. If you can't understand how this would make writing ultra convincing dialogue and getting super excellent voice performances for every character/situation you don't want to understand. You just want to bitch.
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RoshinMy backlog can be seen from spaceSwedenRegistered Userregular
Well... There was that time I was sneaking through a subway station when a door opened and a ghoul steps out. I instantly thought "He has a gun!", hit VATS, and removed his head with one shot. His body collapsed in the doorway and the head flew back into the room he came from and landed on a desk in front of another ghoul, who I killed with another shotgun blast.
Looting their little office, it hit me that these ghouls hadn't actually done anything. For all I know, the first one just stepped out for a smoke. It really did look like I had wasted two potentially friendly characters.
Still, no one saw it happen and I say they were dead when I found them. Yep, poor sods.
Well... There was that time I was sneaking through a subway station when a door opened and a ghoul steps out. I instantly thought "He has a gun!", hit VATS, and removed his head with one shot. His body collapsed in the doorway and the head flew back into the room he came from and landed on a desk in front of another ghoul, who I killed with another shotgun blast.
Looting their little office, it hit me that these ghouls hadn't actually done anything. For all I know, the first one just stepped out for a smoke. It really did look like I had wasted two potentially friendly characters.
Still, no one saw it happen and I say they were dead when I found them. Yep, poor sods.
lol. i did that with the family
had a sniper rifle out, and ran into the outer guard and took his head clean off with the first shot. he was a silhouette, so i thought he was a ghoul (i was underground, after all) so the rest of the family lit me right up when i got to their main room
that was a tough fight, since i was low level and lance took forever to kill
afterwards i realized i probably could have just talked to them, since they all had names
Comparing Bloodlines and Fallout 3 is apples to oranges. They're both RPGs sure, but they're very different kinds of RPGs with very different design goals. Bloodlines is very linear and limits what you can and can't do significantly.
In Fallout as soon as you exit the vault you can go just about anywhere and kill just about anyone. If you can't understand how this would make writing ultra convincing dialogue and getting super excellent voice performances for every character/situation you don't want to understand. You just want to bitch.
Fallout 2 does it pretty well. Hell, in Bloodlines, you can kill quite a few quest givers if you really feel like it.
Though, Bloodlines is indeed a linear RPG. Like Mass Effect. It just does dialogue so well that the linearity is an asset rather than a downside.
I'm not going counting but I'd put the number of unique NPCs in Bloodlines against the number of unique, meaningful NPCs (They do more than have a name) in Fallout 3 any day. Any NPC in Bloodlines is about 5 Fallout 3 NPCs.
And I'd also take text with some voice over full voice with fuck all dialogue.
Fair enough, but in terms of work, each one of those generic NPC's in Fallout IS unique. Each one has to be defined in terms of behaviour (ie. What time they eat, when they sleep, when and where they move, and their reaction to aggression by the PC) even if they don't say anything useful. That's alot more work than what's involved with Bloodlines NPC's.
I'm not saying you have to like Fallout's NPC's, when it comes down to it they're glorified set pieces really, and they don't really serve much of a purpose other than filling space and providing homes for various types of moving ammunition. But it IS unfair to accuse Bethesda of being lazy in comparison to Troika, because Bethesda had a significantly bigger job to complete.
I fail to see how. Its a bigger map but considering its mostly just a void filled with random encounters, it doesn't make it particularly special. And these themselves are largely just zones as can be seen in Rivet City most obviously, its just concealed with streaming. Its easiest to show because the areas have different level scales.
A little off the topic, but it's funny how much smaller Fallout 3 got when I upgraded my PC last week. I was forced to run on pretty limited settings prior, and now that I can put everything at maximum it's really surprised me how much of the wasteland can see the Washington monument.
Standing on the balcony at Tenpenny tower, I can see the monument. I don't expect a 1:1 mapping between the real world and the game, it just surprised me that something that felt so big early on is maybe a couple miles square.
In the real world you can see the Monument from 20+ miles away. Or you could, if not for all the pollution. Its a big, visible thing- which is the point. :P
A little off the topic, but it's funny how much smaller Fallout 3 got when I upgraded my PC last week. I was forced to run on pretty limited settings prior, and now that I can put everything at maximum it's really surprised me how much of the wasteland can see the Washington monument.
Standing on the balcony at Tenpenny tower, I can see the monument. I don't expect a 1:1 mapping between the real world and the game, it just surprised me that something that felt so big early on is maybe a couple miles square.
But it is packed with locations. And yet still manages to feel like a vast wasteland when you're just wandering around. It's very well-made.
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RandomHajileNot actually a SnatcherThe New KremlinRegistered Userregular
Well... There was that time I was sneaking through a subway station when a door opened and a ghoul steps out. I instantly thought "He has a gun!", hit VATS, and removed his head with one shot. His body collapsed in the doorway and the head flew back into the room he came from and landed on a desk in front of another ghoul, who I killed with another shotgun blast.
Looting their little office, it hit me that these ghouls hadn't actually done anything. For all I know, the first one just stepped out for a smoke. It really did look like I had wasted two potentially friendly characters.
Still, no one saw it happen and I say they were dead when I found them. Yep, poor sods.
That was probably Murphy and his bodyguard:
You can take him Sugar Bombs for like 30 caps, and later buy some UltraJet he makes with it (which gives 40AP
Well... There was that time I was sneaking through a subway station when a door opened and a ghoul steps out. I instantly thought "He has a gun!", hit VATS, and removed his head with one shot. His body collapsed in the doorway and the head flew back into the room he came from and landed on a desk in front of another ghoul, who I killed with another shotgun blast.
Looting their little office, it hit me that these ghouls hadn't actually done anything. For all I know, the first one just stepped out for a smoke. It really did look like I had wasted two potentially friendly characters.
Still, no one saw it happen and I say they were dead when I found them. Yep, poor sods.
That was probably Murphy and his bodyguard:
You can take him Sugar Bombs for like 30 caps, and later buy some UltraJet he makes with it (which gives 40AP
They also tell you about where to find the Family (go through the tunnel in the back of their little place).
Something similar happened to me in the Taft Escape Tunnels:
Used to firing at anything wearing power armor, when I stepped through the door where the Brotherhood guard is, I immediately opened fire on him. Thankfully, he didn't go agro on me or the scientists, and helped fight off the remaining ghouls.
Comparing Bloodlines and Fallout 3 is apples to oranges. They're both RPGs sure, but they're very different kinds of RPGs with very different design goals. Bloodlines is very linear and limits what you can and can't do significantly.
In Fallout as soon as you exit the vault you can go just about anywhere and kill just about anyone. If you can't understand how this would make writing ultra convincing dialogue and getting super excellent voice performances for every character/situation you don't want to understand. You just want to bitch.
Fallout 2 does it pretty well. Hell, in Bloodlines, you can kill quite a few quest givers if you really feel like it.
Though, Bloodlines is indeed a linear RPG. Like Mass Effect. It just does dialogue so well that the linearity is an asset rather than a downside.
I think half naked Malk's are more an attractor to Bloodlines than the dialogue is.
In this one, it basically turns into magical hypnotism powers. It gives you the ability to tell people to do things simply because you're the one telling them to. And there's always a chance it won't work.
I like the one at the last scene in the game.
"I'm totally gonna kill you."
"How about you don't kill me and walk away."
"Oh ok, see you."
The one in Raven Rock was the worst.
"Hey Eden, you're evil. Computers shouldn't be the President. You should kill yourself."
"Oh my, you're right. Very well then, goodbye cruel world!"
So stupid. It was damn hard to convince the Master to commit suicide in the original. You had to go and do a whole extra quest to get information to prove that his plans would never work. Here you just waltz in and say "Hey, stop it" and he does.
I think that there isn't a single game that would stand if we started picking if off like this. All games are full of logic holes and leaps.
Most RPGs aren't that deep, anyway. Most JRPGs doesn't even have dialogue options. If you want meaningful dialogue, let's all go play PLanescape Torment, best written game ever.
But yeah, the Raven Rock thing is especially stupid, I agree.
Indeed, not even Fallout 2 holds up to the unreachable standards of some.
I don't see why
Eden's heel turn
is that unbearable if you talk him into it. He has the personality of the
biggest idiot President in history, Richardson from Fallout 2.
in his make up. It shouldn't be any wonder that he didn't really put that much thought into his master plan, or what he was doing or why.
Comparing Bloodlines and Fallout 3 is apples to oranges. They're both RPGs sure, but they're very different kinds of RPGs with very different design goals. Bloodlines is very linear and limits what you can and can't do significantly.
In Fallout as soon as you exit the vault you can go just about anywhere and kill just about anyone. If you can't understand how this would make writing ultra convincing dialogue and getting super excellent voice performances for every character/situation you don't want to understand. You just want to bitch.
Fallout 2 does it pretty well. Hell, in Bloodlines, you can kill quite a few quest givers if you really feel like it.
Though, Bloodlines is indeed a linear RPG. Like Mass Effect. It just does dialogue so well that the linearity is an asset rather than a downside.
I think half naked Malk's are more an attractor to Bloodlines than the dialogue is.
I'm not really into the dead. Not my sort of thing.
Comparing Bloodlines and Fallout 3 is apples to oranges. They're both RPGs sure, but they're very different kinds of RPGs with very different design goals. Bloodlines is very linear and limits what you can and can't do significantly.
In Fallout as soon as you exit the vault you can go just about anywhere and kill just about anyone. If you can't understand how this would make writing ultra convincing dialogue and getting super excellent voice performances for every character/situation you don't want to understand. You just want to bitch.
Fallout 2 does it pretty well. Hell, in Bloodlines, you can kill quite a few quest givers if you really feel like it.
Though, Bloodlines is indeed a linear RPG. Like Mass Effect. It just does dialogue so well that the linearity is an asset rather than a downside.
I think half naked Malk's are more an attractor to Bloodlines than the dialogue is.
I'm not really into the dead. Not my sort of thing.
Basically I think because FO3s 3D world is so well realized and designed people expect fewer 'suspension of disbelief' moments.
Go back and play the old sandbox games. Incongruous shit happens all the time
There isn't any problems with suspension of disbelief until the ubelievably stupid ending. Its just that no, the game world doesn't make any sense, even compared to Fallout 1 and 2.
Basically I think because FO3s 3D world is so well realized and designed people expect fewer 'suspension of disbelief' moments.
Go back and play the old sandbox games. Incongruous shit happens all the time
There isn't any problems with suspension of disbelief until the ubelievably stupid ending. Its just that no, the game world doesn't make any sense, even compared to Fallout 1 and 2.
Fallout 1 and 2 didn't make any sense either.
Repeat after me folks: The game world is an abstraction. All CRPG game worlds are abstractions.
Basically I think because FO3s 3D world is so well realized and designed people expect fewer 'suspension of disbelief' moments.
Go back and play the old sandbox games. Incongruous shit happens all the time
There isn't any problems with suspension of disbelief until the ubelievably stupid ending. Its just that no, the game world doesn't make any sense, even compared to Fallout 1 and 2.
Fallout 1 and 2 didn't make any sense either.
Repeat after me folks: The game world is an abstraction. All CRPG game worlds are abstractions.
You not following the conversation? I already pointed out what I'm talking about earlier in the thread. What with the towns in Fallout having food sources, being built up to a realistic degree, and having a societies.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Basically I think because FO3s 3D world is so well realized and designed people expect fewer 'suspension of disbelief' moments.
Go back and play the old sandbox games. Incongruous shit happens all the time
There isn't any problems with suspension of disbelief until the ubelievably stupid ending. Its just that no, the game world doesn't make any sense, even compared to Fallout 1 and 2.
Fallout 1 and 2 didn't make any sense either.
Repeat after me folks: The game world is an abstraction. All CRPG game worlds are abstractions.
You not following the conversation? I already pointed out what I'm talking about earlier in the thread. What with the towns in Fallout having food sources, being built up to a realistic degree, and having a societies.
So they tossed a few farms in here and there...?
Fallout 1-2 make no more sense as settings than Fallout 3 does.
Basically I think because FO3s 3D world is so well realized and designed people expect fewer 'suspension of disbelief' moments.
Go back and play the old sandbox games. Incongruous shit happens all the time
There isn't any problems with suspension of disbelief until the ubelievably stupid ending. Its just that no, the game world doesn't make any sense, even compared to Fallout 1 and 2.
Fallout 1 and 2 didn't make any sense either.
Repeat after me folks: The game world is an abstraction. All CRPG game worlds are abstractions.
You not following the conversation? I already pointed out what I'm talking about earlier in the thread. What with the towns in Fallout having food sources, being built up to a realistic degree, and having a societies.
So they tossed a few farms in here and there...?
Fallout 1-2 make no more sense as settings than Fallout 3 does.
That is pretty much the worst arguement for Fallout 3 being set in a poorly realized world.
And the food sources in FO3 are explained. Everyone eats left over packaged food or grilled monster bits.
Good thing that no one's touched those packaged foods for 200 years.
I'm reading through my FO3 book that came with the Collector's Edition, where they talk about game design. I'm trying to find the paragraph were Bethesda talks about how they were more interested in creating a true, post nuclear war simulation, then a unique and interesting world based off a quirky altered history.
So, I just killed Tenpenny for the hell of it. Is this going to screw over any future quest? I know he's kind of involved in one, but will that quest adjust for the fact that he's dead already?
Posts
I can honestly say I've never accidentally shot anyone, you perhaps need a different mouse. That said, the people in Fallout 3 seem overly protective of each other, thats aflaw in the game design because capping someone in Megaton unless its someone of importance should only turn their particularly close allies against you, not an entire town and if you're at a certain level, people should be afraid of delaing with you.
But yes, if you go around killing lots of people, you shouldn'tbe able to go back and chill out.
@Operative
I'm not going counting but I'd put the number of unique NPCs in Bloodlines against the number of unique, meaningful NPCs (They do more than have a name) in Fallout 3 any day. Any NPC in Bloodlines is about 5 Fallout 3 NPCs.
And I'd also take text with some voice over full voice with fuck all dialogue.
There's very little scripted dialogue.. just a set of topics and reactions, and npcs communicate things with this system. If you kept it simple enough you could even have news "spread" because it would be easy enough to track what each NPC has heard about. You stab a dude in the back and it gets witnessed, you have a couple minutes to escape before the news reaches local law enforcement and the chase is on.
I imagine a lot of "hardcore" RPG players would hate it, but I think as a social experiment it would be fascinating.
In Fallout as soon as you exit the vault you can go just about anywhere and kill just about anyone. If you can't understand how this would make writing ultra convincing dialogue and getting super excellent voice performances for every character/situation you don't want to understand. You just want to bitch.
Well... There was that time I was sneaking through a subway station when a door opened and a ghoul steps out. I instantly thought "He has a gun!", hit VATS, and removed his head with one shot. His body collapsed in the doorway and the head flew back into the room he came from and landed on a desk in front of another ghoul, who I killed with another shotgun blast.
Looting their little office, it hit me that these ghouls hadn't actually done anything. For all I know, the first one just stepped out for a smoke. It really did look like I had wasted two potentially friendly characters.
Still, no one saw it happen and I say they were dead when I found them. Yep, poor sods.
I wish games would be designed with me in mind.
lol. i did that with the family
had a sniper rifle out, and ran into the outer guard and took his head clean off with the first shot. he was a silhouette, so i thought he was a ghoul (i was underground, after all) so the rest of the family lit me right up when i got to their main room
that was a tough fight, since i was low level and lance took forever to kill
afterwards i realized i probably could have just talked to them, since they all had names
I couldn't even make a Duke Nukem level in Build, much less play around with whatever space age nonsense we got going for game making these days.
Fallout 2 does it pretty well. Hell, in Bloodlines, you can kill quite a few quest givers if you really feel like it.
Though, Bloodlines is indeed a linear RPG. Like Mass Effect. It just does dialogue so well that the linearity is an asset rather than a downside.
Fair enough, but in terms of work, each one of those generic NPC's in Fallout IS unique. Each one has to be defined in terms of behaviour (ie. What time they eat, when they sleep, when and where they move, and their reaction to aggression by the PC) even if they don't say anything useful. That's alot more work than what's involved with Bloodlines NPC's.
I'm not saying you have to like Fallout's NPC's, when it comes down to it they're glorified set pieces really, and they don't really serve much of a purpose other than filling space and providing homes for various types of moving ammunition. But it IS unfair to accuse Bethesda of being lazy in comparison to Troika, because Bethesda had a significantly bigger job to complete.
And that game will be a buggy, incomplete mess, but glorious to behold.
A little off the topic, but it's funny how much smaller Fallout 3 got when I upgraded my PC last week. I was forced to run on pretty limited settings prior, and now that I can put everything at maximum it's really surprised me how much of the wasteland can see the Washington monument.
Standing on the balcony at Tenpenny tower, I can see the monument. I don't expect a 1:1 mapping between the real world and the game, it just surprised me that something that felt so big early on is maybe a couple miles square.
But it is packed with locations. And yet still manages to feel like a vast wasteland when you're just wandering around. It's very well-made.
That was probably Murphy and his bodyguard:
This is a clickable link to my Steam Profile.
Something similar happened to me in the Taft Escape Tunnels:
I think half naked Malk's are more an attractor to Bloodlines than the dialogue is.
or he's the cool frog
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Indeed, not even Fallout 2 holds up to the unreachable standards of some.
I don't see why
I'm not really into the dead. Not my sort of thing.
Undead Friend, Undead. :winky:
Go back and play the old sandbox games. Incongruous shit happens all the time
https://medium.com/@alascii
There isn't any problems with suspension of disbelief until the ubelievably stupid ending. Its just that no, the game world doesn't make any sense, even compared to Fallout 1 and 2.
Fallout 1 and 2 didn't make any sense either.
Repeat after me folks: The game world is an abstraction. All CRPG game worlds are abstractions.
+5 Nostalgia
-10 Perception of Reality
+20 NERDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Unless sex = Elton John
You not following the conversation? I already pointed out what I'm talking about earlier in the thread. What with the towns in Fallout having food sources, being built up to a realistic degree, and having a societies.
So they tossed a few farms in here and there...?
Fallout 1-2 make no more sense as settings than Fallout 3 does.
god and I thought I over thought things to much.
And the food sources in FO3 are explained. Everyone eats left over packaged food or grilled monster bits.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Good thing that no one's touched those packaged foods for 200 years.
I'm reading through my FO3 book that came with the Collector's Edition, where they talk about game design. I'm trying to find the paragraph were Bethesda talks about how they were more interested in creating a true, post nuclear war simulation, then a unique and interesting world based off a quirky altered history.
I can't seem to find that part.
It was packaged food OF THE FUTURE!
If you can accept power armor and sentient computers and robots with vacuum tubes, this is really a nitpicky thing to complain about.
https://medium.com/@alascii