Here's the amazingness of democracy, though: I can vote and express my ideals through our wonderful government.
America isn't a Democracy. It is a REPRESENTATIVE Democracy.
That means that we understand that it is a bad idea to make decisions based on the whims of the unwashed, so we allow them to elect representatives for themselves, who will then push the agendas of their constituency, while also being aware that sometimes their constituency is simply worng about something, and they need to go the other way on it.
Your treating a state matter like it's a federal one, Evander.
Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Of course you don't feel your eyes are shut. This is like Plato's cave. You don't know any better so you don't realise that what you see or think isn't at all rational or fair.
And you're obviously not a free thinker because you twist and turn in your logic to desparately cling to your backwards beliefs.
No offense intended.
According to you, my cave is my religion and the outside is the "real world"
According to me, your cave is this world and the outside is the truth I have learned through my religion.
That is not true, at all, they are not equally valuable. There is value to homosexual couples but not nearly the value as straight couples. There is no argument to that.
Actually, divorce rates are higher among straight marriages than among gay marriages, so you get an offset there.
And since Gays can adopt, they have kids going for them as well.
Also, just because one thing might be more beneficial to society does not mean that we can't have both. Gay marriage does not cause harm.
We definitely can have both and should, but should all benefits apply to both? Should they be the same thing? I am sure some things need to be changed before we take that step, not sure what though because it isn't really important for me.
How can you be sure that things need to be changed if you don't even know which things those are?
I mean, should black people have different kinds of marriages from white people? Tall couple and short couples? Etcetera.
Yes, there is a different combination of genitalia at play, but otherwise, what is the significant difference of a Gay couple?
That is not true, at all, they are not equally valuable. There is value to homosexual couples but not nearly the value as straight couples. There is no argument to that.
Actually, divorce rates are higher among straight marriages than among gay marriages, so you get an offset there.
And since Gays can adopt, they have kids going for them as well.
Also, just because one thing might be more beneficial to society does not mean that we can't have both. Gay marriage does not cause harm.
We definitely can have both and should, but should all benefits apply to both? Should they be the same thing? I am sure some things need to be changed before we take that step, not sure what though because it isn't really important for me.
Why shouldn't they be the same thing?
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
Also, a society of 100% gay couples could feasibly function fine, so long as the men are donating sperm and the women are doing in vitro, so that argument is bankrupt.
If they are both equally valuable, and since the capacity for both being 100% is a potential. Society then could exist with both 100% straight couples and 100% homosexual couples.
That is not true, at all, they are not equally valuable. There is value to homosexual couples but not nearly the value as straight couples. There is no argument to that.
Yes there is in that you have provided no basis for your argument. Unless your argument really is that gay couples don't create families, which many do, and that hetero couples do, which many don't.
Could our society survive if it was a complete 100% gay couple population?
Compare that to a society that is 100% straight couple population.
However, people bring up great points, the value of extra families to adopt children is of great value to society.
This country has a rather illustrious history of the majority acting on their ideals, which others recognized as immoral and eventually overturned.
If you're blind to history then I don't know what else to say to you.
It was a joke. I was sarcastically agreeing with the guy who said I don't actually know history because I'm mormon.
well, the mormon church does hide and bury it's history, but they can learn normal history just fine.
Actually, most historical records are held at the church offices in Salt Lake and any Joe Schmo can go and look at them. It's less hiding and more not talking about it. Because really who is going to go to the trouble?
This kind of shit is what breeds anti religious sentiment among the mean ol' atheists of the internet
where are all the moderate, compassionate Christians to defend their progressive beliefs
Yo.
could you please make the rest of your brethren stop being so retarded
I've quite honestly been trying for years.
The problem is faith by its very nature is irrational. So the values perpetuated by faith have no rational base. ie gay marriage. The only two reasons one would ever have to disallow gay marriage are bigotry and religion, neither of which are rational.
If they are both equally valuable, and since the capacity for both being 100% is a potential. Society then could exist with both 100% straight couples and 100% homosexual couples.
That is not true, at all, they are not equally valuable. There is value to homosexual couples but not nearly the value as straight couples. There is no argument to that.
Yes there is in that you have provided no basis for your argument. Unless your argument really is that gay couples don't create families, which many do, and that hetero couples do, which many don't.
Could our society survive if it was a complete 100% gay couple population?
Compare that to a society that is 100% straight couple population.
However, people bring up great points, the value of extra families to adopt children is of great value to society.
But it's not so what does that have to do with anything
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Of course you don't feel your eyes are shut. This is like Plato's cave. You don't know any better so you don't realise that what you see or think isn't at all rational or fair.
And you're obviously not a free thinker because you twist and turn in your logic to desparately cling to your backwards beliefs.
No offense intended.
According to you, my cave is my religion and the outside is the "real world"
According to me, your cave is this world and the outside is the truth I have learned through my religion.
So, right back at ya.
No offense intended.
Religion is not a cave. Religion is in the cave with you.
You are refusing to see MORE than just your religion. You do not need to abandon your religion to be open minded, you just need to be willing to see that there are other things that have the possibility of being true.
You can't call yourself open minded if you are in actuality closed off to the existence of an outside truth.
This country has a rather illustrious history of the majority acting on their ideals, which others recognized as immoral and eventually overturned.
If you're blind to history then I don't know what else to say to you.
It was a joke. I was sarcastically agreeing with the guy who said I don't actually know history because I'm mormon.
well, the mormon church does hide and bury it's history, but they can learn normal history just fine.
Do we want to get into this? Cuz I could ask what you are talking about. But I am so tired from this thread.
I like SE++ cuz its funny and people here are generally intelligent. (My first thread I read was a bunch of people freaking out about the ocean and how its going to take over the world. Hilarious.) But I will continue to discuss this if for no other reason than to clear stuff up/defend my beliefs.
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Of course you don't feel your eyes are shut. This is like Plato's cave. You don't know any better so you don't realise that what you see or think isn't at all rational or fair.
And you're obviously not a free thinker because you twist and turn in your logic to desparately cling to your backwards beliefs.
No offense intended.
According to you, my cave is my religion and the outside is the "real world"
According to me, your cave is this world and the outside is the truth I have learned through my religion.
So, right back at ya.
No offense intended.
Religion is not a cave. Religion is in the cave with you.
You are refusing to see MORE than just your religion. You do not need to abandon your religion to be open minded, you just need to be willing to see that there are other things that have the possibility of being true.
You can't call yourself open minded if you are in actuality closed off to the existence of an outside truth.
It's like the guy in the cave is completely without his senses and suddenly sees some shadows on the wall and responds with OMGJESUS!!
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Of course you don't feel your eyes are shut. This is like Plato's cave. You don't know any better so you don't realise that what you see or think isn't at all rational or fair.
And you're obviously not a free thinker because you twist and turn in your logic to desparately cling to your backwards beliefs.
No offense intended.
According to you, my cave is my religion and the outside is the "real world"
According to me, your cave is this world and the outside is the truth I have learned through my religion.
So, right back at ya.
No offense intended.
Truth through religion is impossible. If there ever comes a time where a religion is proven true it ceases to be 'religion' and becomes 'fact'
I want a dog My cat doesn't hug, she just stalks around the apartment chasing invisible monsters and yelling at them. Either my cat is retarded or she's the last line of defense against an invisible alien invasion.
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Clint EastwoodMy baby's in there someplaceShe crawled right inRegistered Userregular
Really, why government has any control over marriage is beyond me.
Because it's a useful secular institution as well. We let people perform the religious ceremonies because it's their right to free exercise.
Then they get confused, thinking we're sanctioning their religious practices, and start demanding control of the secular institution, and then I have to explain the Establishment Clause again.
Could our society survive if it was a complete 100% gay couple population?
Yes.
Gay people aren't infertile. They could still conceive children, either through arranged agreements or through artificial means.
But are you suggesting that gay is contagious? That allowing gay marriage means that everyone would become Gay?
I believe many comics have touched on that and said that yes it will because all the straight couples will see how happy the gay couples are and immediately convert.
This country has a rather illustrious history of the majority acting on their ideals, which others recognized as immoral and eventually overturned.
If you're blind to history then I don't know what else to say to you.
It was a joke. I was sarcastically agreeing with the guy who said I don't actually know history because I'm mormon.
well, the mormon church does hide and bury it's history, but they can learn normal history just fine.
Actually, most historical records are held at the church offices in Salt Lake and any Joe Schmo can go and look at them. It's less hiding and more not talking about it. Because really who is going to go to the trouble?
yeah, but why not teach some of the full real history in those 3 hours of church i went to every sunday, and the many hours of youth group, or even in those hours of seminary. when i started studying on my own, my bishop scolded me for it and said it was best to not dig up the past and to just concern myself with having faith in the church leaders
i mean, i really would have loved to have been told about how a prophet is on record at a congressional hearing swearing that he has never received revelation from god, and that he was not chosen by god and that the apostles were also not chosen through revelation, and more. instead they teach the opposite of that! and those are all very important points to know
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Tossrocktoo weird to livetoo rare to dieRegistered Userregular
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Of course you don't feel your eyes are shut. This is like Plato's cave. You don't know any better so you don't realise that what you see or think isn't at all rational or fair.
And you're obviously not a free thinker because you twist and turn in your logic to desparately cling to your backwards beliefs.
No offense intended.
According to you, my cave is my religion and the outside is the "real world"
According to me, your cave is this world and the outside is the truth I have learned through my religion.
So, right back at ya.
No offense intended.
You can't learn any truth through religious practice
Also, a society of 100% gay couples could feasibly function fine, so long as the men are donating sperm and the women are doing in vitro, so that argument is bankrupt.
Gay people can even have heterosexual sex.
They may not have an urge to do it, but if it meant the survival of the species, I'm sure some folks would volunteer.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Of course you don't feel your eyes are shut. This is like Plato's cave. You don't know any better so you don't realise that what you see or think isn't at all rational or fair.
And you're obviously not a free thinker because you twist and turn in your logic to desparately cling to your backwards beliefs.
No offense intended.
According to you, my cave is my religion and the outside is the "real world"
According to me, your cave is this world and the outside is the truth I have learned through my religion.
So, right back at ya.
No offense intended.
Religion is not a cave. Religion is in the cave with you.
You are refusing to see MORE than just your religion. You do not need to abandon your religion to be open minded, you just need to be willing to see that there are other things that have the possibility of being true.
You can't call yourself open minded if you are in actuality closed off to the existence of an outside truth.
If God is eternal, he created us, and put us here for a reason, then all truth can be discovered or confirmed through Him. Its his game, afterall. So explain what you mean by "outside truth". Cuz thats not specific enough for me to fully follow.
I want a dog My cat doesn't hug, she just stalks around the apartment chasing invisible monsters and yelling at them. Either my cat is retarded or she's the last line of defense against an invisible alien invasion.
This country has a rather illustrious history of the majority acting on their ideals, which others recognized as immoral and eventually overturned.
If you're blind to history then I don't know what else to say to you.
It was a joke. I was sarcastically agreeing with the guy who said I don't actually know history because I'm mormon.
well, the mormon church does hide and bury it's history, but they can learn normal history just fine.
Actually, most historical records are held at the church offices in Salt Lake and any Joe Schmo can go and look at them. It's less hiding and more not talking about it. Because really who is going to go to the trouble?
yeah, but why not teach some of the full real history in those 3 hours of church i went to every sunday, and the many hours of youth group, or even in those hours of seminary. when i started studying on my own, my bishop scolded me for it and said it was best to not dig up the past and to just concern myself with having faith in the church leaders
i mean, i really would have loved to have been told about how a prophet is on record at a congressional hearing swearing that he has never received revelation from god, and that he was not chosen by god and that the apostles were also not chosen through revelation, and more. instead they teach the opposite of that! and those are all very important points to know
No church in its right mind would do something so foolish. That would only cause fear and distrust.
Could our society survive if it was a complete 100% gay couple population?
Yes.
Gay people aren't infertile. They could still conceive children, either through arranged agreements or through artificial means.
But are you suggesting that gay is contagious? That allowing gay marriage means that everyone would become Gay?
I believe many comics have touched on that and said that yes it will because all the straight couples will see how happy the gay couples are and immediately convert.
David Cross' bit is my favorite, because I think there's a lot of truth to it.
I think you get some of the really loud anti-gay folks who actually are gay themselves, and believe that EVERYONE has the urges that they do, because CLEARLY they couldn't be any different from anyone else.
So these folks, say, Larry Craig for instance. They oppose homosexual rights because they honestly think that EVERYONE would be flailing in a bathroom stall, looking for action.
Could our society survive if it was a complete 100% gay couple population?
Yes.
Gay people aren't infertile. They could still conceive children, either through arranged agreements or through artificial means.
But are you suggesting that gay is contagious? That allowing gay marriage means that everyone would become Gay?
If it was 100% gay population the birth rate would be tremendously low. Society would not function, it's possible but just no.
I was using the 100% to show value to society, not that it is contagious but to show they are not the same thing. People like to think they are, but they really are not.
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Of course you don't feel your eyes are shut. This is like Plato's cave. You don't know any better so you don't realise that what you see or think isn't at all rational or fair.
And you're obviously not a free thinker because you twist and turn in your logic to desparately cling to your backwards beliefs.
No offense intended.
According to you, my cave is my religion and the outside is the "real world"
According to me, your cave is this world and the outside is the truth I have learned through my religion.
So, right back at ya.
No offense intended.
Religion is not a cave. Religion is in the cave with you.
You are refusing to see MORE than just your religion. You do not need to abandon your religion to be open minded, you just need to be willing to see that there are other things that have the possibility of being true.
You can't call yourself open minded if you are in actuality closed off to the existence of an outside truth.
If God is eternal, he created us, and put us here for a reason, then all truth can be discovered or confirmed through Him. Its his game, afterall. So explain what you mean by "outside truth". Cuz thats not specific enough for me to fully follow.
The first word is the only important one, here. 'If.' Yes, if God is real then he's going to have all the answers. But no real truth can ever be gleamed from an 'if'.
This country has a rather illustrious history of the majority acting on their ideals, which others recognized as immoral and eventually overturned.
If you're blind to history then I don't know what else to say to you.
It was a joke. I was sarcastically agreeing with the guy who said I don't actually know history because I'm mormon.
well, the mormon church does hide and bury it's history, but they can learn normal history just fine.
Actually, most historical records are held at the church offices in Salt Lake and any Joe Schmo can go and look at them. It's less hiding and more not talking about it. Because really who is going to go to the trouble?
yeah, but why not teach some of the full real history in those 3 hours of church i went to every sunday, and the many hours of youth group, or even in those hours of seminary. when i started studying on my own, my bishop scolded me for it and said it was best to not dig up the past and to just concern myself with having faith in the church leaders
i mean, i really would have loved to have been told about how a prophet is on record at a congressional hearing swearing that he has never received revelation from god, and that he was not chosen by god and that the apostles were also not chosen through revelation, and more. instead they teach the opposite of that! and those are all very important points to know
No church in its right mind would do something so foolish. That would only cause fear and distrust.
exactly, and therein lies the joke about hiding history.
we could also talk about how joseph smith gave the priesthood to black men and women, and the prophet after him took it away.
Posts
But it's so boring
/litigation
According to you, my cave is my religion and the outside is the "real world"
According to me, your cave is this world and the outside is the truth I have learned through my religion.
So, right back at ya.
No offense intended.
How can you be sure that things need to be changed if you don't even know which things those are?
I mean, should black people have different kinds of marriages from white people? Tall couple and short couples? Etcetera.
Yes, there is a different combination of genitalia at play, but otherwise, what is the significant difference of a Gay couple?
Why shouldn't they be the same thing?
Could our society survive if it was a complete 100% gay couple population?
Compare that to a society that is 100% straight couple population.
However, people bring up great points, the value of extra families to adopt children is of great value to society.
my dog is fucking awesome
STEAM!
I've quite honestly been trying for years.
The problem is faith by its very nature is irrational. So the values perpetuated by faith have no rational base. ie gay marriage. The only two reasons one would ever have to disallow gay marriage are bigotry and religion, neither of which are rational.
But it's not so what does that have to do with anything
Religion is not a cave. Religion is in the cave with you.
You are refusing to see MORE than just your religion. You do not need to abandon your religion to be open minded, you just need to be willing to see that there are other things that have the possibility of being true.
You can't call yourself open minded if you are in actuality closed off to the existence of an outside truth.
Your dog is adorable and I want to hug it.
GoFund The Portland Trans Pride March, or Show It To People, or Else!
Do we want to get into this? Cuz I could ask what you are talking about. But I am so tired from this thread.
I like SE++ cuz its funny and people here are generally intelligent. (My first thread I read was a bunch of people freaking out about the ocean and how its going to take over the world. Hilarious.) But I will continue to discuss this if for no other reason than to clear stuff up/defend my beliefs.
he will most certainly hug you back
STEAM!
mormonism is a cult
it's a cult
i-it's a cult!
It's like the guy in the cave is completely without his senses and suddenly sees some shadows on the wall and responds with OMGJESUS!!
why does religion have any control over it if it's a secular institution
Truth through religion is impossible. If there ever comes a time where a religion is proven true it ceases to be 'religion' and becomes 'fact'
Yes.
Gay people aren't infertile. They could still conceive children, either through arranged agreements or through artificial means.
But are you suggesting that gay is contagious? That allowing gay marriage means that everyone would become Gay?
I want a dog My cat doesn't hug, she just stalks around the apartment chasing invisible monsters and yelling at them. Either my cat is retarded or she's the last line of defense against an invisible alien invasion.
Because it's a useful secular institution as well. We let people perform the religious ceremonies because it's their right to free exercise.
Then they get confused, thinking we're sanctioning their religious practices, and start demanding control of the secular institution, and then I have to explain the Establishment Clause again.
yeah, but why not teach some of the full real history in those 3 hours of church i went to every sunday, and the many hours of youth group, or even in those hours of seminary. when i started studying on my own, my bishop scolded me for it and said it was best to not dig up the past and to just concern myself with having faith in the church leaders
i mean, i really would have loved to have been told about how a prophet is on record at a congressional hearing swearing that he has never received revelation from god, and that he was not chosen by god and that the apostles were also not chosen through revelation, and more. instead they teach the opposite of that! and those are all very important points to know
You can't learn any truth through religious practice
Isn't that the whole point? Having faith?
Gay people can even have heterosexual sex.
They may not have an urge to do it, but if it meant the survival of the species, I'm sure some folks would volunteer.
If God is eternal, he created us, and put us here for a reason, then all truth can be discovered or confirmed through Him. Its his game, afterall. So explain what you mean by "outside truth". Cuz thats not specific enough for me to fully follow.
No church in its right mind would do something so foolish. That would only cause fear and distrust.
David Cross' bit is my favorite, because I think there's a lot of truth to it.
I think you get some of the really loud anti-gay folks who actually are gay themselves, and believe that EVERYONE has the urges that they do, because CLEARLY they couldn't be any different from anyone else.
So these folks, say, Larry Craig for instance. They oppose homosexual rights because they honestly think that EVERYONE would be flailing in a bathroom stall, looking for action.
If it was 100% gay population the birth rate would be tremendously low. Society would not function, it's possible but just no.
I was using the 100% to show value to society, not that it is contagious but to show they are not the same thing. People like to think they are, but they really are not.
The first word is the only important one, here. 'If.' Yes, if God is real then he's going to have all the answers. But no real truth can ever be gleamed from an 'if'.
exactly, and therein lies the joke about hiding history.
we could also talk about how joseph smith gave the priesthood to black men and women, and the prophet after him took it away.
edit: or accepting