I'm sorry, it's been a while since I've had a good opportunity to sell anyone a particularly warm and fragrant pile of bullshit, and I just couldn't let an opportunity so well situated to my particular brand of prevarication pass me by.:?
Is there any truth to the Inquisition part? It's always bothered me that the Ghosts weren't considered for execution after their first contact with Chaos.
I'm sorry, it's been a while since I've had a good opportunity to sell anyone a particularly warm and fragrant pile of bullshit, and I just couldn't let an opportunity so well situated to my particular brand of prevarication pass me by.:?
Is there any truth to the Inquisition part? It's always bothered me that the Ghosts weren't considered for execution after their first contact with Chaos.
I'm sorry, it's been a while since I've had a good opportunity to sell anyone a particularly warm and fragrant pile of bullshit, and I just couldn't let an opportunity so well situated to my particular brand of prevarication pass me by.:?
Is there any truth to the Inquisition part? It's always bothered me that the Ghosts weren't considered for execution after their first contact with Chaos.
Ummmm... what?
I vageluely.. vaguly.. ehh... vaguely [1] remember some fluff from old times. That imperial guard regiments that fought against chaos was summarily executed after the fighting.
[1] Trying to find the cure for common cold in the liquer cabinet messes up spelling.
I'm sorry, it's been a while since I've had a good opportunity to sell anyone a particularly warm and fragrant pile of bullshit, and I just couldn't let an opportunity so well situated to my particular brand of prevarication pass me by.:?
Is there any truth to the Inquisition part? It's always bothered me that the Ghosts weren't considered for execution after their first contact with Chaos.
Ummmm... what?
I vageluely.. vaguly.. ehh... vaguely [1] remember some fluff from old times. That imperial guard regiments that fought against chaos was summarily executed after the fighting.
[1] Trying to find the cure for common cold in the liquer cabinet messes up spelling.
Yeah, that. And Marines were mindwiped. At one point, even *thinking* about Chaos was enough to invite charges of Heresy (and the attentions of the Chaos Gods); or, at least, knowing that it was more than vague "evils and daemons" spoken of by the Ecclesiarchy. Hell, even Inquisitors Regular (what would be the Xenos and Hereticus these days) didn't know much, if anything. To learn that Horus' renegades were real and still lived today worshipping real (or close to it) Dark Gods would be enough to snap most Imperial citizens, guardsmen, and maybe even Marines.
Not so much, these days. Abnett's work was the beginning of the change, or at least coincided the shift in tone to more of a WWI space opera.
So I played my first game tonight as IG, way fun even if I lost horribly, the whole killpoints thing is pretty freaking retarded. I can't wait until the new codex.
-[arlequin;9277071']So, more ruminating on that armylist
I'm thinking of dropping a defiler, and putting in 2 oblits for some more flexibility with heavy weapons
this also reduces the need for a reaper on the termies, so I could put in that heavy flamer as suggested
and that change gives me a few more points to throw on some wargear
previous Chaos Marines 2000pts vs Orkses
HQ
Sorceror, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Personal Icon 130
Greater Daemon 100
Heavy
Defiler, autocannon, extra CCW
Defiler, autocannon, extra CCW
Predator, autocannon, Heavy bolters, Havoc launcer, 115
Do you know if you'll be facing nobz? Slaanesh lord with demon weapon (so, power attacks with instant death) would mess up their day, and might be worth considering.
I don't know why you wouldn't take a lord with demon weapon if you are playing Slaanesh. That thing is just ridiculous.
The sorceror's force weapon inflicts ID - not sure if my opponent uses nobz, but he'd be crazy not to, right?
A lord with daemon weapon would be more killy certainly, but the potential for lash against an ork army seems pretty big. My plan is to put the sorceror into the noise marine squad, get them into 24" and then blast away while pushing them back
But also, why the lesser demons? You could do better pimpin out your Raptors.
Lesser daemons come in at about half the points of raptors and can really surprise a foe (also I only have 1 more raptor model, and he's got a powerfist)
Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
For Nax. IG on Lord of the Rings movement trays.
1st platoon, A company, 6th Arcadian.
Two packs gives you enough for a whole platoon with command. As you can see the missile launchers are based on infantry bases so I place the Sgt and Vox behind the tray to ease movement.
However if I switch in one of the large base heavy weapons I can fit all the infantry on the tray.
I'll be basing and painting these trays to match the infantry.
I'm sorry, it's been a while since I've had a good opportunity to sell anyone a particularly warm and fragrant pile of bullshit, and I just couldn't let an opportunity so well situated to my particular brand of prevarication pass me by.:?
Is there any truth to the Inquisition part? It's always bothered me that the Ghosts weren't considered for execution after their first contact with Chaos.
Ummmm... what?
I vageluely.. vaguly.. ehh... vaguely [1] remember some fluff from old times. That imperial guard regiments that fought against chaos was summarily executed after the fighting.
[1] Trying to find the cure for common cold in the liquer cabinet messes up spelling.
Yeah, that. And Marines were mindwiped. At one point, even *thinking* about Chaos was enough to invite charges of Heresy (and the attentions of the Chaos Gods); or, at least, knowing that it was more than vague "evils and daemons" spoken of by the Ecclesiarchy. Hell, even Inquisitors Regular (what would be the Xenos and Hereticus these days) didn't know much, if anything. To learn that Horus' renegades were real and still lived today worshipping real (or close to it) Dark Gods would be enough to snap most Imperial citizens, guardsmen, and maybe even Marines.
Not so much, these days. Abnett's work was the beginning of the change, or at least coincided the shift in tone to more of a WWI space opera.
I'm quite sure that that take on facing Chaos has been left out of cannon for at least 10-15 years. The 2nd ed background for the Tallern was all about that huge chaos gate on their planet, and having to fight off a massive daemonic invasion when it opened, wasn't it? That certainly wasn't followed by the Inquisition then hunting down every veteran of that campaign and putting the whole planet under interdiction due to warp contamination. There wouldn't even be any point in sending the Imperial Guard in to fight against chaos forces if they all had to be put to death afterwards. If you're going to be taking 100% casualties just because they encountered Chaos, you might as well just burn out Chaos infestations from orbit, because the planetary population is a write-off anyway. How would Cadia even exist?
"Allright Citizens! From your first breath in the cradle, you live to fight in the name of the Emperor against the foul forces of... something something... and pay no attention to that big glowy thing filling the sky!"
The 13th Black Crusade certainly would have been amusing, as millions of guardsmen and mega-tonnes of vehicles and munitions are rushed to Cadian space... for a long, long vacation? A massive 'training exercise' where somebody accidentally sat on the Void Missile battery launch button and everything was lost in the warp? Any large battle against Chaos, much less a crusade, like what the Ghosts take part in, would be a massive black hole that just swallows up vast numbers of men and materials. Not only the loss of sheer manpower, but the total loss of veteran forces with battlefield experience would be crippling.
Not to mention, the Alpha Legion would certainly have an easy time of things. Just buff up the armor a little, and no one would even known there's anything wrong, since, hey, space marines, they're all on our side!
I think if we're looking at it within the 40k timeline, that it was long ago they use to mindwipe everyone. Things have been getting progressively worse for the Imperium century by century and like Gabe said, they just can't keep up with it anymore.
Those are pretty sweet, Tim. I'm definitely going to be looking into those. Especially good for units with Sharpshooter... Though, probably devastating if your enemy has templates.
Nax on
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Not to mention, the Alpha Legion would certainly have an easy time of things. Just buff up the armor a little, and no one would even known there's anything wrong, since, hey, space marines, they're all on our side!
That's kinda how the Alpha Legion do operate. That's why they use battle crys such as "for the emperor!", to fuck with people.
The old "kill anyone who has any contact with chaos" fluff has a lot of charm to it still, I think. It makes no sense if you think about it with any sort of logic for the reasons you just mentioned, which is why it's great.
Not to mention, the Alpha Legion would certainly have an easy time of things. Just buff up the armor a little, and no one would even known there's anything wrong, since, hey, space marines, they're all on our side!
That's kinda how the Alpha Legion do operate. That's why they use battle crys such as "for the emperor!", to fuck with people.
The old "kill anyone who has any contact with chaos" fluff has a lot of charm to it still, I think. It makes no sense if you think about it with any sort of logic for the reasons you just mentioned, which is why it's great.
When discussing various conflicting points of 40k fluff, the question ought always to be, "Which of these is more GRIMDARK?" The most GRIMDARK side of the argument is the correct one.
I thought the Alpha Legion use the battle cry "For the Emperor" because they choose to side with Chaos. The primarchs were shown a vision of the future, one where they sided with Chaos and one where they sided with the Emperor. The one where they sided with the Emperor caused all of humanity to die and the on where they sided with Chaos showed that Horus would eventually kill himself and all of Chaos. So the Alpha Legion sided with Horus but they are still fighting “For the Emperor”
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
Those are pretty sweet, Tim. I'm definitely going to be looking into those. Especially good for units with Sharpshooter... Though, probably devastating if your enemy has templates.
As W2 says I have SO MANY MANS that I'm not really concerned even about templates. So a small blast is going to clip one or two more guys and a flamer a few more, that's just a few less that have to die to the follow up bolter shells flying into the squad.
It'll speed up the game both in my moment and opponent's shooting resolution! I'm fair that way.:P
I can't find anything in the codex entry for the scout squads about this, but isn't a bolt pistol+chainsword considered "free" equipment for a scout sergeant?
In the entry, chainsword isn't even mentioned. Or am I reading it wrong?
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
Anyone else seen the new WotR rules? They're pretty impressive.
I hate you for making me consider playing it. I need to dig out the old models I got. I have a minimum of 500 points since I know I have the whole Fellowship.
In other news REINFORCEMENTS!
1x Imperial Armor Model Masterclass: volume 1
2x Death Korps Engineers to finish off my mechanized platoon
2x Sentinel Powerlifters. You know what that means? SENTINELS HIGH-FIVING WITH WRAITHLORD ARMS!
I can't find anything in the codex entry for the scout squads about this, but isn't a bolt pistol+chainsword considered "free" equipment for a scout sergeant?
In the entry, chainsword isn't even mentioned. Or am I reading it wrong?
"Any model may replace his boltgun with: a shotgun, combat blade or sniper rifle - free"
Combat blade and chainsword are basicly the same thing.
I can't find anything in the codex entry for the scout squads about this, but isn't a bolt pistol+chainsword considered "free" equipment for a scout sergeant?
In the entry, chainsword isn't even mentioned. Or am I reading it wrong?
"Any model may replace his boltgun with: a shotgun, combat blade or sniper rifle - free"
Combat blade and chainsword are basicly the same thing.
Alpha legion has always been a "tricksy" legion. I'm sure the fluff i mentioned was around since before Legion was written, so I take it in the context of a chaos raiding force yelling loyalist propaganda to mess with their opponents. Maybe that's changed, I haven't read legion yet.
The old "kill anyone who has any contact with chaos" fluff has a lot of charm to it still, I think. It makes no sense if you think about it with any sort of logic for the reasons you just mentioned, which is why it's great.
Exactly! Up to the first year or so of 2nd 40k had an extremely unique tone: things like the Codex Imperialis were very different in tone than Codex: Ultramarines, IG, and other Red Period stuff. That 1st-early 2nd tone was extremely humorous, mostly through absurdity. The setting was, by design, absurd, absolutist, and over the top.
Versimilitude came through theme and atmosphere, rather than logic or being able to explain the mechanics of things. If something Imperial was an absolute representation of law and hyper-rationalized (but hypocritcal) Order, it worked. Exterminatus (with guard still there), mindwipes, Hive Cities, Tech Priests; all that good, characterful stuff. The logic didn't matter as long as it was straight out of a NWOBHM album cover with strong thematic concepts.
As the game got more popular GW started to rationalize things. The low point, in my opinion, was 3rd, especially late 3rd, where the Necron codex background supplanted and superceded a decade worth of theme. Order and Chaos was no longer about the Imperium and... Chaos; it was about the Old Ones and C'tan, with humans, eldar, and everything else being symptoms or side effects. Everything was rationalized as having C'tan or Old One involvement: moreso, even, than Warhammer which has kept the Old Ones/Chaos dichotomy as a strong theme from the start.
Gaunt's Ghosts grew directly out of the early change to rationalization and popularized it. More explanation (Servo Skulls were once a complete unknown; the "why the fuck are there flying skulls everywhere?" debate was always fun) pulled the setting more toward a Grimdark space opera- WWI in space- than a crazy amalgam of metal album covers and classic sci-fi, all with a strong sense of absurdist humor. Not bad, necessarily, but a very, very different beast than the first six or seven years.
5th seems to be looping back, though. It's interesting to note that the new rulebook takes a bit of the irrational, absurdist tone, but doesn't refute either 1st/2nd weirdness or 3rd/4th absolutism. I'd guess that GW is intentionally doing what they always do; leave it open for interpretation, and old players like me will ignore the C'tan being everywhere, all the time while happily coexisting and debating with newer guys who want to talk about the Dragon being responsible for human tech.
Which is bullshit speculation and heresy, obviously. The C'tan are just powerful aliens.
Goddamn I miss 40k...
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
debating with newer guys who want to talk about the Dragon being responsible for human tech.
Is this actually supported anywhere besides random places on the internet?
Nah. He's kind of responsible for the mechanicus worshipping the 'machine god,' and that whole cult thing, but the vast majority of human technology has roots going back farther than the current mechanicus.
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
Well, they're immensely powerful non material beings, so stargods is a good enough description, which is not quite the same thing as the chaos gods by any road.
Also, given the implications in the necron description in the new BRB, there seems to be a strong implication that the things running around as the Deciever and Nightbringer on the tabletop as just crazy powerful, crazy delusional Necron lords in a crunchy, necrodermis shell.
debating with newer guys who want to talk about the Dragon being responsible for human tech.
Is this actually supported anywhere besides random places on the internet?
There's a short story where it's implied fairly directly, supported by the Necrons flying to Mars bit and Ferrus Manus (*snicker*) punching a giant metal dragon or something. It is mostly speculation, but being that the Necron book was the first in 3rd to return to the "biased 3rd-person" viewpoint (rather than more 1st-person like everything else since the launch of 3rd) it confused a lot of newer players. Just 'cause an army book says it, doesn't mean it's true.
Well, they're immensely powerful non material beings, so stargods is a good enough description, which is not quite the same thing as the chaos gods by any road.
Also, given the implications in the necron description in the new BRB, there seems to be a strong implication that the things running around as the Deciever and Nightbringer on the tabletop as just crazy powerful, crazy delusional Necron lords in a crunchy, necrodermis shell.
Nah. He's kind of responsible for the mechanicus worshipping the 'machine god,' and that whole cult thing, but the vast majority of human technology has roots going back farther than the current mechanicus.
This is exactly the kind of rationalization I'd prefer to ignore. It's way more awesome when it's just human beings being crazy, rather than human beings being influenced by super powerful aliens.
It's all just Necron propaganda; a concerted effort to supplant the Chaos gods and prepare fleshy races for harvest.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Morsk, you ought to look through the recent two Dark Heresy books, especially Desciples of the Dark Gods. There's not only a bunch of good info on daemonology, chaos rituals and sorcery (as in calling upon the warp through trained rituals rather than psychic ability), but a number of subtle heretical cults.
One of which being a surviving splinter faction of the pre-Thorian Imperial Temple creed. It's virtually identical to the 41st millennium cult.
Nah. He's kind of responsible for the mechanicus worshipping the 'machine god,' and that whole cult thing, but the vast majority of human technology has roots going back farther than the current mechanicus.
This is exactly the kind of rationalization I'd prefer to ignore. It's way more awesome when it's just human beings being crazy, rather than human beings being influenced by super powerful aliens.
It's all just Necron propaganda; a concerted effort to supplant the Chaos gods and prepare fleshy races for harvest.
But they are crazy. It's not a rationalization. They both are true; the degree to which they are true is left entirely up to the reader to decide. I mean, fuck, when the Emperor landed on mars he could heal vehicles by touching them. That's got nothing to do with the C'tan.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Back in my day, people came up with religions on their own accord without Vong or Vorlons or whatever behind it and people didn't confuse dying earth fantasy with space opera.
Nah. He's kind of responsible for the mechanicus worshipping the 'machine god,' and that whole cult thing, but the vast majority of human technology has roots going back farther than the current mechanicus.
This is exactly the kind of rationalization I'd prefer to ignore. It's way more awesome when it's just human beings being crazy, rather than human beings being influenced by super powerful aliens.
It's all just Necron propaganda; a concerted effort to supplant the Chaos gods and prepare fleshy races for harvest.
But they are crazy. It's not a rationalization. They both are true; the degree to which they are true is left entirely up to the reader to decide. I mean, fuck, when the Emperor landed on mars he could heal vehicles but touching them. That's got nothing to do with the C'tan.
They were an entire population of scientists and engineers left stranded on Mars while Earth devolved into barbarism. As they relied 100% on machines to survive, they began to idolize and worship those devices; particularly their great central computer system and repository of knowledge. It doesn't take any sort of outside intervention to push that, over time, into an outright worship of knowledge and the devices that were both the focus and the reason for their continued survival.
Utsanomiko - I need to check those out. I've got the DH core book, but that's it.
Nah. He's kind of responsible for the mechanicus worshipping the 'machine god,' and that whole cult thing, but the vast majority of human technology has roots going back farther than the current mechanicus.
This is exactly the kind of rationalization I'd prefer to ignore. It's way more awesome when it's just human beings being crazy, rather than human beings being influenced by super powerful aliens.
It's all just Necron propaganda; a concerted effort to supplant the Chaos gods and prepare fleshy races for harvest.
But they are crazy. It's not a rationalization. They both are true; the degree to which they are true is left entirely up to the reader to decide. I mean, fuck, when the Emperor landed on mars he could heal vehicles but touching them. That's got nothing to do with the C'tan.
They were an entire population of scientists and engineers left stranded on Mars while Earth devolved into barbarism. As they relied 100% on machines to survive, they began to idolize and worship those devices; particularly their great central computer system and repository of knowledge. It doesn't take any sort of outside intervention to push that, over time, into an outright worship of knowledge and the devices that were both the focus and the reason for their continued survival.
Utsanomiko - I need to check those out. I've got the DH core book, but that's it.
And? That's what happened to them. That is official fluff. And the Dragon made some of them crazy in slightly different ways. That is also official fluff. So...?
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
I think that's what actually in cannon material is that it's a pretty sure thing that the Dragon is sleeping on Mars, and there is a small, whacked out, Mechanicus cabal that knows about it, worships it and considers it the true Omnisseiah. It's quite possible I have missed some sources, but barring that, I'm pretty sure all the talk about the Dragon being the true source of Imperial Tech, the real omnisseiah, etc is fan extrapolation blown out of proportion by the internet. Add to that the fact the Magos that the Deciever was posing as in the 'Let the Galaxy Burn' anthology has popped up on Mars and in his single apperance was the head of the 'no no no, nothing important in those dusty catacombs - in fact, let's just fill the whole thing with concrete and forget it ever existed' faction, and the whole thing gets way more attention than it warrents.
The belief that the Dragon has any intrinsic link to the Mechanicus would be completely deluded and heretical. And who better to watch over a biomechanical alien in a crypt than them? That's a plotline I can get behind.
Quiescent perils are the best perils.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
I only recall the Void Dragon being linked to Mars is because it's labeled with a question mark on the map in Codex Necrons, which would be on par with the people who think Squats are mentioned in Codex Tyranids.
Are they not? Or is that just WD/random devs making the whole "eaten" reference?
Also, the Deathbringer = memory of Death thing. Emotion feeds the warp, so wouldn't it be completely counterintuitive (especially thematically) for him to be responsible for some sort of racial memory and fear?
Posts
Is there any truth to the Inquisition part? It's always bothered me that the Ghosts weren't considered for execution after their first contact with Chaos.
But also, why the lesser demons? You could do better pimpin out your Raptors.
I vageluely.. vaguly.. ehh... vaguely [1] remember some fluff from old times. That imperial guard regiments that fought against chaos was summarily executed after the fighting.
[1] Trying to find the cure for common cold in the liquer cabinet messes up spelling.
Yeah, that. And Marines were mindwiped. At one point, even *thinking* about Chaos was enough to invite charges of Heresy (and the attentions of the Chaos Gods); or, at least, knowing that it was more than vague "evils and daemons" spoken of by the Ecclesiarchy. Hell, even Inquisitors Regular (what would be the Xenos and Hereticus these days) didn't know much, if anything. To learn that Horus' renegades were real and still lived today worshipping real (or close to it) Dark Gods would be enough to snap most Imperial citizens, guardsmen, and maybe even Marines.
Not so much, these days. Abnett's work was the beginning of the change, or at least coincided the shift in tone to more of a WWI space opera.
The sorceror's force weapon inflicts ID - not sure if my opponent uses nobz, but he'd be crazy not to, right?
A lord with daemon weapon would be more killy certainly, but the potential for lash against an ork army seems pretty big. My plan is to put the sorceror into the noise marine squad, get them into 24" and then blast away while pushing them back
edit:
Lesser daemons come in at about half the points of raptors and can really surprise a foe (also I only have 1 more raptor model, and he's got a powerfist)
1st platoon, A company, 6th Arcadian.
Two packs gives you enough for a whole platoon with command. As you can see the missile launchers are based on infantry bases so I place the Sgt and Vox behind the tray to ease movement.
However if I switch in one of the large base heavy weapons I can fit all the infantry on the tray.
I'll be basing and painting these trays to match the infantry.
Also,
Modification to make it modular.
"Allright Citizens! From your first breath in the cradle, you live to fight in the name of the Emperor against the foul forces of... something something... and pay no attention to that big glowy thing filling the sky!"
The 13th Black Crusade certainly would have been amusing, as millions of guardsmen and mega-tonnes of vehicles and munitions are rushed to Cadian space... for a long, long vacation? A massive 'training exercise' where somebody accidentally sat on the Void Missile battery launch button and everything was lost in the warp? Any large battle against Chaos, much less a crusade, like what the Ghosts take part in, would be a massive black hole that just swallows up vast numbers of men and materials. Not only the loss of sheer manpower, but the total loss of veteran forces with battlefield experience would be crippling.
Not to mention, the Alpha Legion would certainly have an easy time of things. Just buff up the armor a little, and no one would even known there's anything wrong, since, hey, space marines, they're all on our side!
At least, that's what I think.
The old "kill anyone who has any contact with chaos" fluff has a lot of charm to it still, I think. It makes no sense if you think about it with any sort of logic for the reasons you just mentioned, which is why it's great.
When discussing various conflicting points of 40k fluff, the question ought always to be, "Which of these is more GRIMDARK?" The most GRIMDARK side of the argument is the correct one.
As W2 says I have SO MANY MANS that I'm not really concerned even about templates. So a small blast is going to clip one or two more guys and a flamer a few more, that's just a few less that have to die to the follow up bolter shells flying into the squad.
It'll speed up the game both in my moment and opponent's shooting resolution! I'm fair that way.:P
Way to spoil one of the big reveals in Legion.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
I can't find anything in the codex entry for the scout squads about this, but isn't a bolt pistol+chainsword considered "free" equipment for a scout sergeant?
In the entry, chainsword isn't even mentioned. Or am I reading it wrong?
I hate you for making me consider playing it. I need to dig out the old models I got. I have a minimum of 500 points since I know I have the whole Fellowship.
In other news REINFORCEMENTS!
1x Imperial Armor Model Masterclass: volume 1
2x Death Korps Engineers to finish off my mechanized platoon
2x Sentinel Powerlifters. You know what that means? SENTINELS HIGH-FIVING WITH WRAITHLORD ARMS!
"Any model may replace his boltgun with: a shotgun, combat blade or sniper rifle - free"
Combat blade and chainsword are basicly the same thing.
Ah, this I didn't know. Cheers!
Alpha legion has always been a "tricksy" legion. I'm sure the fluff i mentioned was around since before Legion was written, so I take it in the context of a chaos raiding force yelling loyalist propaganda to mess with their opponents. Maybe that's changed, I haven't read legion yet.
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
Exactly! Up to the first year or so of 2nd 40k had an extremely unique tone: things like the Codex Imperialis were very different in tone than Codex: Ultramarines, IG, and other Red Period stuff. That 1st-early 2nd tone was extremely humorous, mostly through absurdity. The setting was, by design, absurd, absolutist, and over the top.
Versimilitude came through theme and atmosphere, rather than logic or being able to explain the mechanics of things. If something Imperial was an absolute representation of law and hyper-rationalized (but hypocritcal) Order, it worked. Exterminatus (with guard still there), mindwipes, Hive Cities, Tech Priests; all that good, characterful stuff. The logic didn't matter as long as it was straight out of a NWOBHM album cover with strong thematic concepts.
As the game got more popular GW started to rationalize things. The low point, in my opinion, was 3rd, especially late 3rd, where the Necron codex background supplanted and superceded a decade worth of theme. Order and Chaos was no longer about the Imperium and... Chaos; it was about the Old Ones and C'tan, with humans, eldar, and everything else being symptoms or side effects. Everything was rationalized as having C'tan or Old One involvement: moreso, even, than Warhammer which has kept the Old Ones/Chaos dichotomy as a strong theme from the start.
Gaunt's Ghosts grew directly out of the early change to rationalization and popularized it. More explanation (Servo Skulls were once a complete unknown; the "why the fuck are there flying skulls everywhere?" debate was always fun) pulled the setting more toward a Grimdark space opera- WWI in space- than a crazy amalgam of metal album covers and classic sci-fi, all with a strong sense of absurdist humor. Not bad, necessarily, but a very, very different beast than the first six or seven years.
5th seems to be looping back, though. It's interesting to note that the new rulebook takes a bit of the irrational, absurdist tone, but doesn't refute either 1st/2nd weirdness or 3rd/4th absolutism. I'd guess that GW is intentionally doing what they always do; leave it open for interpretation, and old players like me will ignore the C'tan being everywhere, all the time while happily coexisting and debating with newer guys who want to talk about the Dragon being responsible for human tech.
Which is bullshit speculation and heresy, obviously. The C'tan are just powerful aliens.
And I'm gonna prove it to 'em.
Nah. He's kind of responsible for the mechanicus worshipping the 'machine god,' and that whole cult thing, but the vast majority of human technology has roots going back farther than the current mechanicus.
Also, given the implications in the necron description in the new BRB, there seems to be a strong implication that the things running around as the Deciever and Nightbringer on the tabletop as just crazy powerful, crazy delusional Necron lords in a crunchy, necrodermis shell.
There's a short story where it's implied fairly directly, supported by the Necrons flying to Mars bit and Ferrus Manus (*snicker*) punching a giant metal dragon or something. It is mostly speculation, but being that the Necron book was the first in 3rd to return to the "biased 3rd-person" viewpoint (rather than more 1st-person like everything else since the launch of 3rd) it confused a lot of newer players. Just 'cause an army book says it, doesn't mean it's true.
Canon in GW stuff... hah!
Holy fuck I would love this.
This is exactly the kind of rationalization I'd prefer to ignore. It's way more awesome when it's just human beings being crazy, rather than human beings being influenced by super powerful aliens.
It's all just Necron propaganda; a concerted effort to supplant the Chaos gods and prepare fleshy races for harvest.
One of which being a surviving splinter faction of the pre-Thorian Imperial Temple creed. It's virtually identical to the 41st millennium cult.
But they are crazy. It's not a rationalization. They both are true; the degree to which they are true is left entirely up to the reader to decide. I mean, fuck, when the Emperor landed on mars he could heal vehicles by touching them. That's got nothing to do with the C'tan.
harumph.jpg
They were an entire population of scientists and engineers left stranded on Mars while Earth devolved into barbarism. As they relied 100% on machines to survive, they began to idolize and worship those devices; particularly their great central computer system and repository of knowledge. It doesn't take any sort of outside intervention to push that, over time, into an outright worship of knowledge and the devices that were both the focus and the reason for their continued survival.
Utsanomiko - I need to check those out. I've got the DH core book, but that's it.
And? That's what happened to them. That is official fluff. And the Dragon made some of them crazy in slightly different ways. That is also official fluff. So...?
The belief that the Dragon has any intrinsic link to the Mechanicus would be completely deluded and heretical. And who better to watch over a biomechanical alien in a crypt than them? That's a plotline I can get behind.
Quiescent perils are the best perils.
Also, the Deathbringer = memory of Death thing. Emotion feeds the warp, so wouldn't it be completely counterintuitive (especially thematically) for him to be responsible for some sort of racial memory and fear?