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[4E DnD Discussion] H1 and DnD quickstart rules for free from Wizards!

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    SeeksSeeks Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Alright, so backgrounds:

    Let's say I'm running a game in the Forgotten Realms setting, and everyone can choose a place and get its background bonuses.

    Do they get the background bonuses in PHB2 on top of that, or instead of?

    Edit: Okay, I think I'm just being stupid. The background section in PHB2 just lets you mix and match shit, whereas the FR book has 'em pre-made. Is that the gist of it?

    Seeks on
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    dscrilladscrilla Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Seeks wrote: »
    Alright, so backgrounds:

    yeah you got it right, FR backgrounds are (more powerful) & specific to FR, the ones in PHBII are more generic. You only get to pick one bonus, so mix/match is for flavor only.

    dscrilla on
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    HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Scales of War backgrounds from Dragon are also good generic ones... they more or less hit almost every character trope that your average player might come up with.

    Horseshoe on
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    SeeksSeeks Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Righto, thanks chaps.

    Seeks on
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    Mostlyjoe13Mostlyjoe13 Evil, Evil, Jump for joy! Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Seeks wrote: »
    Righto, thanks chaps.

    Although, the Character builder allows for up to 4 backgrounds, but it's not default. Interesting. Imagine having staggered backgrounds for specific to general things.

    Criminal -> Thief Guild -> Pickpocket

    Etc.

    Mostlyjoe13 on
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    FiggyFiggy Fighter of the night man Champion of the sunRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ok just to confirm:

    With basic attacks, you add the proficiency bonus and the ability bonus. So a guy with 20 Str and a dagger would have +8 to attack? (Prof 3 + 5 Str mod)

    With powers, you use the ability mod and the proficiency mod if it is listed as a "weapon" power.

    Is that correct?

    Figgy on
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    dscrilladscrilla Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    That sounds right to me
    Assuming the PC is proficient with the weapon:
    With basic attacks, you add the proficiency bonus and the ability bonus (without special feats: Str Melee, Dex Ranged)
    With "Weapon" powers, you use the ability mod of the power plus the proficiency mod of the weapon.

    dscrilla on
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    UEAKCrashUEAKCrash heh Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    That sounds about right, yes.

    UEAKCrash on
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    FiggyFiggy Fighter of the night man Champion of the sunRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Alright thanks.

    Also, am I reading this right that Warforged will never "strike out" with death saves?

    "When you roll a death save, you take the better of your die roll or 10 as the result. You can still die at your negative hit point total."

    Figgy on
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    UEAKCrashUEAKCrash heh Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Guess not. That's... good. Almost too good.

    UEAKCrash on
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    Mithrandir86Mithrandir86 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Horseshoe wrote: »
    Scales of War backgrounds from Dragon are also good generic ones... they more or less hit almost every character trope that your average player might come up with.

    They are a disaster in terms of balance, and may have contributed to David Noonan being fired.

    Auspicious Birth and Born Under A Bad Sign are far better than any Heroic tier feat, for example. A few of the others (Scorned Noble, for example) provide some useful, if situational bonuses. I had 3/5 of my Scales of War players pick Auspicious Birth, so I forced them to play triplets.

    The rest are utter crap.

    The point of the article was to provide some paltry game benefit for the elaboration of a character background. But what's the point of that if one of the backgrounds allows you to use your highest score to determine your hp instead of your constitution score? Or +2 to saves if you're 5 squares away from an ally? Why would anyone take +1 Endurance instead of that?

    Mithrandir86 on
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    ArkanArkan Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    It seems pretty significant at level 1, but it seems to me that the effect gets less pronounced as you go up in level.

    Then again I've never played at very high levels in this game so what do I know

    Arkan on
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    Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    the ability score substitution is arguably broken at heroic levels but, aside from making toughness a bit obsolete for certain characters, its not that big of a deal.


    +2 to saves, on the other hand, is pretty freaking crazy.

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    cdrcjsncdrcjsn Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Arkan wrote: »
    It seems pretty significant at level 1, but it seems to me that the effect gets less pronounced as you go up in level.

    Then again I've never played at very high levels in this game so what do I know

    You're right. There are even way more ways to recover hit points and prevent damage at higher levels that the chance of someone dying because of failing three death saves becomes practically nil unless it's a TPK.

    With powers that begin "Once a day, when you die..." death isn't as big a concern.

    The highest level character I've played though was 18th level and that was over a year and a half ago when I was playtesting, so my experience might be skewed, but I don't see much that have changed since the actual rules have come out so I doubt it.

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    ArkanArkan Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Well, I meant the background that let you use your highest stat to determine HP instead of CON.

    I mean, let's say you're going from 10 CON to 18 of whatever stat. That's a gain of 8 HP which is huge at level one. But you're only gaining bonus stats every 4-5 levels whereas you get like 5 HP (at a minimum) every level from your class, so as you level up the percent of your HP that background is giving you dwindles rapidly as the amount of HP you get simply being your class at levelup rises rapidly, even if every time you get stat points you're putting at least one into that primary stat.

    I don't have my PHB in front of me but I'd guesstimate that that background is giving you like 25% of your total health at level 1, but by the time you hit say level 10 it's down to less than 10%. And it keeps going down.

    Plus monster damage goes up, meaning that 10HP or whatever matters much less than the 8HP at level 1.

    Arkan on
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    RiusRius Globex CEO Nobody ever says ItalyRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I have a question concerning double weapons.

    I'm building a Tempest Fighter, he's proficient naturally with military melee weapons. Due to his Tempest-y nature, he wants to dual wield weapons (one normal, one offhand, since he's not a two-weapon ranger).

    The gist of Tempest Fighter seems to be a trade. Your offhand weapon gets buffed a little more than your mainhand weapon, so ultimately you make a choice. Mainhand weapon is 1 less accurate but does 1 more damage average, while offhand is vice versa. For example;

    Tempest fighter with 18 Str and using basic attack;

    Warhammer/Throwing Hammer
    +6/1d10+5 OR +7/1d6+6

    Double Weapons confuse me, because the description of them in the Character Builder (along with the way Character Builder applies the various Tempest bonuses) seems to indicate that you get the best of both worlds. IE you get the increased accuracy of the offhand AND the increased damage of the mainhand every time you attack with either hand. This makes your basic attack a no-brainer, for example;

    Tempest fighter with 18 Str and using basic attack;


    Double Axe/Double Axe (if Off-Hand property applies to both hands as the Character Builder implies)
    +7/1d10+6 OR +7/1d10+6

    See what I mean?

    So, the question is, since you're spending a feat to be able to access the Double Weapon in the first place, is it intended that the choice of increased accuracy or increased damage is removed? Or, to put it another way, does a Double Weapon's offhand property apply to both "hands"? If this is truly the case, then this advantage PLUS having another +1 to AC is wicked awesome.

    Rius on
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    Mike DangerMike Danger "Diane..." a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Registered on Obsidian Portal today. I am pretty impressed. Tinkering with the wiki and things now.

    Mike Danger on
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    Mostlyjoe13Mostlyjoe13 Evil, Evil, Jump for joy! Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    They are a disaster in terms of balance, and may have contributed to David Noonan being fired.

    How do you factor that? Up to about the time he was laid off he was a full time supporter of the Game and really was pimping it at Cons and the podcast. I could understand if it was a down sizing, but I didn't recall anyl animosity there.

    Mostlyjoe13 on
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    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Registered on Obsidian Portal today. I am pretty impressed. Tinkering with the wiki and things now.

    Check the tutorial if you haven't already. The whole double-bracket autocreation of new wiki pages is awesome.

    delroland on
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    Mike DangerMike Danger "Diane..." a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Yeah, I really like some of the stuff (putting the Google Maps API on the maps page was a BRILLIANT move, my players are going to love marking the hell out of that thing). I'm probably going to upgrade to the premium account once our game gets started.

    Mike Danger on
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    ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Rius wrote: »

    So, the question is, since you're spending a feat to be able to access the Double Weapon in the first place, is it intended that the choice of increased accuracy or increased damage is removed? Or, to put it another way, does a Double Weapon's offhand property apply to both "hands"? If this is truly the case, then this advantage PLUS having another +1 to AC is wicked awesome.

    Applies to both, as per RAW. Just another notch in the "What the fuck were they thinking when they made double weapons?"

    Arkady on
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    SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    So let me get this straight. If I subscribe to DnD insider for 1 month, update the character gen to full, and then unsubscribe, I can keep using the updated version? I just can't get new updates past that, right?

    SniperGuy on
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    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. If I subscribe to DnD insider for 1 month, update the character gen to full, and then unsubscribe, I can keep using the updated version? I just can't get new updates past that, right?

    That is correct.

    delroland on
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    SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Sweet action. That character gen is kickass. It even gives you power cards when you print it out!

    SniperGuy on
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    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Arkady wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »

    So, the question is, since you're spending a feat to be able to access the Double Weapon in the first place, is it intended that the choice of increased accuracy or increased damage is removed? Or, to put it another way, does a Double Weapon's offhand property apply to both "hands"? If this is truly the case, then this advantage PLUS having another +1 to AC is wicked awesome.

    Applies to both, as per RAW. Just another notch in the "What the fuck were they thinking when they made double weapons?"

    darthmaul.jpg

    delroland on
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    SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Wait hold on, how can I convert a character I make with the gen to like, a PDF to transport and print somewhere else? I don't have a printer and can't go installing the software on University PCs

    SniperGuy on
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    UEAKCrashUEAKCrash heh Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    There is a program called CutePDF, I haven't had the need for it yet, but that's what I hear recommended here.

    UEAKCrash on
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    FiggyFiggy Fighter of the night man Champion of the sunRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I would recommend PrimoPDF. I hear CutePDF cuts off the page sometimes.

    Basically, all you have to do is select "PrimoPDF" as the printer after you hit 'print' in absolutely ANY program that you print from. It then gives you some options. You'll want to pick a decent quality, since you're going to be printing.

    The software is invaluable. If you ever need to make a PDF, as long as you can print whatever it is you want, you're golden. Documents in word, images, websites, etc.etc.etc.

    Figgy on
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    RiusRius Globex CEO Nobody ever says ItalyRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Arkady wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »

    So, the question is, since you're spending a feat to be able to access the Double Weapon in the first place, is it intended that the choice of increased accuracy or increased damage is removed? Or, to put it another way, does a Double Weapon's offhand property apply to both "hands"? If this is truly the case, then this advantage PLUS having another +1 to AC is wicked awesome.

    Applies to both, as per RAW. Just another notch in the "What the fuck were they thinking when they made double weapons?"

    Does that mean that a Double Weapon counts as two weapons but is only one weapon?

    Would a Dwarven Fighter with Dwarven Weapon Training be able to use an Urgrosh fully, then? Kind of like he'd be able to use a polearm that was part axe fully, since a polearm is just one weapon?

    This stuff needs some heavy errata.

    Edit: Hell, even if you go with what seems to be the RAI and count a Double Weapon as two seperate weapons, a Double Axe is still overpowered because you have an offhand weapon that is just as good as a mainhand. Ergo, as a Tempest fighter, you can wield a Double Axe/Sword and just always use the "offhand" side of it for single attack powers for the extra hit/damage bonuses.

    Rius on
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    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Rius wrote: »
    This stuff needs some heavy errata.

    No it doesn't.

    All properties of the weapon apply simultaneously. Dwarven Weapon Training grants full proficiency with the Urgosh because it is an axe, even if it also happens to be a spear and double weapon.

    It's an OR operator.

    delroland on
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    RiusRius Globex CEO Nobody ever says ItalyRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    delroland wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    This stuff needs some heavy errata.

    No it doesn't.

    All properties of the weapon apply simultaneously. Dwarven Weapon Training grants full proficiency with the Urgosh because it is an axe, even if it also happens to be a spear and double weapon.

    It's an OR operator.

    The problem, as I see it, is that the Urgrosh IS an axe when you're attacking with the spear bit and a spear when you're attacking with the axe bit. It seems to me like Urgrosh is the only double weapon that actually would be reasonable IF double weapons were actually TWO weapons. It'd be like wielding a Waraxe and a (1d8 offhand nonranged spear, which doesn't exist iirc), with the added bonus that feating into the Urgrosh gives you the Defensive property.

    Instead we have the actual scenario, wherein a feat that gives you knowledge of axes happens to give you working knowledge of spears just because they're welded together. And that seems a little silly to me.

    Rius on
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    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Rius wrote: »
    delroland wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    This stuff needs some heavy errata.

    No it doesn't.

    All properties of the weapon apply simultaneously. Dwarven Weapon Training grants full proficiency with the Urgosh because it is an axe, even if it also happens to be a spear and double weapon.

    It's an OR operator.

    The problem, as I see it, is that the Urgrosh IS an axe when you're attacking with the spear bit and a spear when you're attacking with the axe bit. It seems to me like Urgrosh is the only double weapon that actually would be reasonable IF double weapons were actually TWO weapons. It'd be like wielding a Waraxe and a (1d8 offhand nonranged spear, which doesn't exist iirc), with the added bonus that feating into the Urgrosh gives you the Defensive property.

    Instead we have the actual scenario, wherein a feat that gives you knowledge of axes happens to give you working knowledge of spears just because they're welded together. And that seems a little silly to me.
    Less silly than Eladrin wielding Urgoshes. :P

    It's not really all that silly though when you remember that dwarves literally have decades of playing with and practicing with all manner of dwarven iconic weapons before they even start out as first level adventurers. Also, the only class that does not know how to use a spear is wizard, so the point is a bit moot. Oh, and rogue, and again, moot.

    delroland on
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    cdrcjsncdrcjsn Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Rius wrote: »
    Instead we have the actual scenario, wherein a feat that gives you knowledge of axes happens to give you working knowledge of spears just because they're welded together. And that seems a little silly to me.

    Pfft.

    I'm still waiting on them to clarify on whether or not wizard staff implements and quarterstaves are the same thing.

    Right now there's all sorts of confusion on how many hands is needed to wield a staff implement. If two, like a weapon quarterstaff, then halfling staff wizards don't exist in the world. If one, then where is that stated anywhere in the rules?

    Most things like this are easily house-ruled in a home game, but when you're playing in a global campaign like the RPGA, small things like this have a wide impact in character tactics/builds and really do need to be defined better.

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    HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Rius wrote: »
    delroland wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    This stuff needs some heavy errata.

    No it doesn't.

    All properties of the weapon apply simultaneously. Dwarven Weapon Training grants full proficiency with the Urgosh because it is an axe, even if it also happens to be a spear and double weapon.

    It's an OR operator.

    The problem, as I see it, is that the Urgrosh IS an axe when you're attacking with the spear bit and a spear when you're attacking with the axe bit. It seems to me like Urgrosh is the only double weapon that actually would be reasonable IF double weapons were actually TWO weapons. It'd be like wielding a Waraxe and a (1d8 offhand nonranged spear, which doesn't exist iirc), with the added bonus that feating into the Urgrosh gives you the Defensive property.

    Instead we have the actual scenario, wherein a feat that gives you knowledge of axes happens to give you working knowledge of spears just because they're welded together. And that seems a little silly to me.

    Someone forwarded me to a post by either Perkins or Mearls from one of their blogs or another forum... I can't seem to find it. Or maybe it was a podcast? Memory fuzzy.

    Anyway, he talked about how the original idea of double weapons was it would be like wielding two different military weapons, with the main benefit being its +1 to AC. They were going to have the double sword be a 1d10 heavy blade, one-handed at one end (so a bastard sword), and 1d6 light blade off-handed at the other end (like a short sword). Eventually, they thought this was overly complicated and just split the difference by making it a 1d8 blade with both properties.

    I believe he said that of course it wasn't an ideal solution but much smoother for the existing game mechanics and in the scheme of things, actually not that big of a deal. Perhaps it gives them a bit more oomph than some other superior weapons, but it's only ideal for specific builds. It's not a feat that every character would be crazy not to take. Heck, not even every two weapon ranger or tempest fighter would necessarily want one... there are better options depending upon how you build your little imaginary person.

    As far as silly goes... well this is a game. And one that is inherently silly in a lot of ways. A game where you attack squeaky draconic things in dark abandoned places that exist for some reasons, where wizards conjure big floating hands and man-sized faeries slum it in the mundane world for kicks. Nobody cares why a shoe owns real estate in monopoly, it's just a game piece, regardless how silly the idea of a Shoe Millionare might be.

    Horseshoe on
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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Man, D&D is not really my type of game, but I have this sudden urge to run a campaign of it. Maybe when I'm done with my Hunter game.

    Professor Phobos on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Yeah it was Mike Mearls Horseshoe. He is aware of the problems with the double sword, but I'm betting they don't have a neat and simple mechanical solution to it yet. It's probably why it hasn't been fixed just at the moment.

    Aegeri on
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    Mithrandir86Mithrandir86 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    They are a disaster in terms of balance, and may have contributed to David Noonan being fired.

    How do you factor that? Up to about the time he was laid off he was a full time supporter of the Game and really was pimping it at Cons and the podcast. I could understand if it was a down sizing, but I didn't recall anyl animosity there.

    Just idle speculation. There were some pretty nasty reactions on the CharOps boards, as well in my group. To be honest, it was just a terrible article. Noonan has done better.

    As for the using HP from another stat to determine level 1 hp, keep in mind that it ties your hp to that stat forever (just like Constitution), so an increase in that stat at level 4, 8, etc, increases it by 1 as well. Arguably, its not better than Toughness at level 21, but there is nothing saying you can't have both. And you're only comparing it to the alternatives, not to feats. Anyway you look at it, it's usually better than +1 to 2 skills, or +3 to a single skill.

    Mithrandir86 on
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    ArkanArkan Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    They are a disaster in terms of balance, and may have contributed to David Noonan being fired.

    How do you factor that? Up to about the time he was laid off he was a full time supporter of the Game and really was pimping it at Cons and the podcast. I could understand if it was a down sizing, but I didn't recall anyl animosity there.

    Just idle speculation. There were some pretty nasty reactions on the CharOps boards, as well in my group. To be honest, it was just a terrible article. Noonan has done better.

    As for the using HP from another stat to determine level 1 hp, keep in mind that it ties your hp to that stat forever (just like Constitution), so an increase in that stat at level 4, 8, etc, increases it by 1 as well. Arguably, its not better than Toughness at level 21, but there is nothing saying you can't have both. And you're only comparing it to the alternatives, not to feats. Anyway you look at it, it's usually better than +1 to 2 skills, or +3 to a single skill.

    My point was that while you can +1 that stat giving you HP every 4 levels, you're getting a lot more health from your class default features every single level. It's not even that there are better feats in paragon/epic tear- it's simply that as you level, that feat gets less and less valuable as it's giving you a smaller and smaller percentage of your total health. I'm not comparing it to any other feat- only basic class features which everyone has.

    I mean, off the top of my head sorcerers get 5HP a level. So every time they get 4 levels, then they get +1 HP from that background without putting points into CON... but +20 from their class.

    Arkan on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I wonder if whoever made Veterans Armour is next then?

    And good Gods, I'd hate to be whoever came up with Punisher of the Gods.

    Aegeri on
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    ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Arkan wrote: »

    My point was that while you can +1 that stat giving you HP every 4 levels, you're getting a lot more health from your class default features every single level. It's not even that there are better feats in paragon/epic tear- it's simply that as you level, that feat gets less and less valuable as it's giving you a smaller and smaller percentage of your total health. I'm not comparing it to any other feat- only basic class features which everyone has.

    I mean, off the top of my head sorcerers get 5HP a level. So every time they get 4 levels, then they get +1 HP from that background without putting points into CON... but +20 from their class.

    Except regional benefits, at least the fr ones, don't require a feat. You just get them. If a wizard is from Thay and starts with a 20 int and a 10 con, that's a difference of 16 hp's at level 30. That is toughness. For free. That stacks with toughness.
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I wonder if whoever made Veterans Armour is next then?

    And good Gods, I'd hate to be whoever came up with Punisher of the Gods.

    Seriously that dipshit deserves to get fired. Punisher of the Gods is so fucking ridiculous I don't even know what to say.
    delroland wrote: »
    No it doesn't.

    It so does, but not for the reason you posted. Double sword is a light and heavy blade that lets you dual wield a 2h weapon. That also gives you +1 defense. There is just so much wrong with this picture, but mostly it's the taking all the light blade feats, the heavy blade feats, all the twf feats, and then getting 3:1 with power attack. And +1 defense.

    Arkady on
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