Explain to me how it's wrong. Define "end game" content.
Max level content, and generally the highest difficulty max level content. It's "end game" because there's nothing beyond it.
But there's always something beyond the hardest dungeon in the game. Whether it's collecting all the mounts in the game, getting exalted with everyone, finishing as many achievements as possible, there are many, many harder, more difficult things to do in the game than just run the hardest dungeon.
Yes, all of these things can be done at level 80. Which is currently the max level, the end game. Well done.
Unless you've cleared everything, collected everything, talked with everyone, finished all the quests, gotten exalted with everyone, killed everyone, have all recipes/patterns, gotten all the gear for every situation, you haven't reached "end game".
The moment you ding 80 you are now in the end game (or, by another definition, the moment you step into the highest difficulty max level dungeon). From there on, it's just a matter of participating in it.
To my best recollection, nobody's beaten WoW. So, for you, me, and everyone else out there, there's still an end to be reached. Running Ulduar (at least for now) isn't the end all be all of WoW's existence.
"The end" and "end game" are two different things.
So, since nobody's reached your definition of max level content
There are plenty of people currently at level 80, and plenty of people doing Ulduar which is the currently highest difficulty dungeon in the game.
since nobody's done everything there is to do in the game
And even someone had, it would still be completely irrelevant to anything I've said.
I guess we'll have to settle with finding what we enjoy, and stick with that.
For many, it's twinking
Yes, many people like to partake and take joy in things that they know aggravates and inconveniences others. These people are often known as assholes.
Geez, you're worse than trying to reason with a 3 year old who wants a cookie but isn't allowed to have one.
Well, I'm not a fan of debating with a thick, dense rock, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the right and wrong way to play a video game.
Have fun playing your version of WoW, and the rest of us will be playing our version. I like my version better, it has more stuff in it than just one dungeon.
And on a personal note, I'm sorry that twinks make you so angry. Maybe if you weren't so busy running that one dungeon over and over again, maybe you could get some free time to make a twink and play with everyone else. Who knows, you might enjoy it.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
maybe you could get some free time to make a twink and play with everyone else
No, see, I'm actually quite good at PvP so I don't have to make a twink.
maybe you could get some free time to make a twink and play with everyone else
No, see, I'm actually quite good at PvP so I don't have to make a twink.
How do you define twink?
'Character with best available items, enchants, proffessions, consumables, stats, talents, glyphs, gems'?
Cause that is just as, if not more, time consuming to achieve at 80 as it is at 19. And to be quite good at 80 you need pretty much exactly that depending on class.
All I am saying is that up until the BoA stuff, twinking was perfectly achievable with no higher level character making it no different than any other purely-PvP geared character. I've been in battlegrounds at all levels in greens and blues, including 80. It is just as impossible to play in bad gear then as at 19
maybe you could get some free time to make a twink and play with everyone else
No, see, I'm actually quite good at PvP so I don't have to make a twink.
How do you define twink?
'Character with best available items, enchants, proffessions, consumables, stats, talents, glyphs, gems'?
Cause that is just as, if not more, time consuming to achieve at 80 as it is at 19. And to be quite good at 80 you need pretty much exactly that depending on class.
All I am saying is that up until the BoA stuff, twinking was perfectly achievable with no higher level character making it no different than any other purely-PvP geared character. I've been in battlegrounds at all levels in greens and blues, including 80. It is just as impossible to play in bad gear then as at 19
you needed a level 70+ character to bug your pant enchant
I started off reading this thread with a totally unbiased mindset. I never really had any desire to may a twink and stomp on people. I'm far more likely in game to Mind Control and buff a low level horde I came across in the open world rather than one-shot him to be a dick. So I'm trying to understand the mindset of the people who hate twinks, because you don't just hate them there's like foam coming from your mouth... Loathe? Abhor? Maybe those are better words?
Now, back to the unpopular side of the debate!
Really all I can come up with is: The dead horse casual vs hardcore debate. slurpeepoop is the only person that has made any kind of sense and had any reasonable things to say, and you have elitist comebacks when really, you're the casual in this scenerio.
There are people who play low level battlegrounds at a hardcore level. They have maximized themselves in their specific corner of the game. You hate them because you want to be able to play casually in their hardcore world. It's somehow unfair that they are more hardcore than you so it should be removed and then everyone can be casual...
We're not talking about running the same raids for months and trying to get those PvE items to complete hard mode achievements, we're not talking about forming a streamlined comp and perfecting strategies for arenas, we're not talking about arranging 40 people with that preform AV thing, we're talking about a few dungeon runs and enchants.
The idea that it's unintended to maximize a character in any aspect of the game is absurd. This games entire draw is maximizing something or another for whatever you choose to do. You're just pissed that it's outside your cookie cutter idea of what you want the game to be. I've put some time into maximizing my character for fishing skill, would you have them take that away because I can fish successfully in some areas without a lure where you can't? See how stupid that sounds?
Think about when you step into a BG at 80 in your welfare raid epics and my-cock-is-huge PvP purplez. You see a guy who just dinged 80 in his quest greens. Oh great, *that guy,* bringing the team down. This is YOU at level 19/29/39. The guy who didn't even bother to have the crafted resilience gear made and expects the rest of the people to carry him to glory.
I also fail to see how being able to PvP at max level makes you somehow exempt from putting forth the minimal effort to gear out an alt to be on equal footing with these totally broken, unfair people. If you're spending that much time in low level BGs to the point that the twink plague effects you in any way... Really? An afternoon of time is too hard?
I still have no desire to make a twink. I'm a carebear. I don't even kill stuff in PvE, I heal stuff. But apparently now I'm one of those cock twink supporters because I really feel you *should* get your ass handed to you by someone who put forth the effort to gain an advantage. It's not "World of Faircraft" after all.
Someone who is level 80 is almost by definition not really that casual and should probably get some gear instead of complaining the bg is unfair because some people are more geared than them.
If someone is new to world of warcraft's and their first experience of PvP in the game is dying repeatedly to twinks in bg's there are consequences. Since they have no way of knowing what a twink is or why they are getting crushed so badly they could easily come to the conclusions that the game is completely ridiculously unbalanced and pvp of all types at any level is so unbalanced the pvp aspect of the game is unplayable and unsubscribe.
After all, my experiences in age of Conan were that pvp was unbalanced and not fun and based on my low level pvp experiences I stopped playing and I've had friends start playing WoW and after getting butthurt in bg's I had to explain to them about twinks and that it's not their fault they got butthurt and the pvp does get better.
The idea that it's unintended to maximize a character in any aspect of the game is absurd. This games entire draw is maximizing something or another for whatever you choose to do. You're just pissed that it's outside your cookie cutter idea of what you want the game to be. I've put some time into maximizing my character for fishing skill, would you have them take that away because I can fish successfully in some areas without a lure where you can't? See how stupid that sounds?
What sounds stupid is thinking that people are ridiculous in not want to get turned over a barrel just for wanting a quick game or two on their journey upward.
I think Blizzard agrees with the idea that these tiers were never intended for the purpose of "maximized [twinks] in their specific corner of the game" considering their comments about BGs possibly giving xp in the future. In fact, its pretty obvious to me that they made these tiers so people wouldn't have to deal with overwhelming force from others that were higher level than them when wanting to pvp at a lower level.
If you think that makes me 'butthurt' because I got my ass beat by a twink - sure, fine, think that.
What everyone's missing about twinks is faction pride.
I play alliance and do everything I can to help them win in every place I can. Am I going to let my level 10-19 allies get beat up by Horde twinks? NO. I'm going to step up and defend them and help them through these rough BG patches.
Watch out, Horde. Your tears only make me twink more.
Just popping back in here, I was pretty active in the beginning and kinda said "eh" to...Rorus I think.
Anyway- My point still stands.
People keep missing the forest for the trees. There is a HUGE difference between "maximizing yourself" and "unfair advantage".
Again, at the end game, you will NOT see one rogue with FIVE TIMES the hp of another. Even IF one rogue is in quest greens and another is in full T8 at 80, there will not be a five-fold difference in stats.
however, taking a look back at the two rogues I posted earlier, it seems they have been brought more in line now. The uber-twink now only has 1.3k health compared to 450 health. Those are much "fairer" odds than 2.3k vs 450.
1.3k vs 450 is "maximizing yourself" and 2.3k vs 450 is "unfair advantage".
The second set of odds does not happen ANYWHERE else in-game but low level pvp. (and doesn't anymore ANYWAY so it is no longer an issue).
and you can also play for both teams in this instance
This is the big thing. It's like someone played the game and decided to play on a faction for whatever-the-hell arbitrary reason and you suddenly hate them for it when you could have just as easily done the same thing when you started playing.
You can root for both teams, too. It makes it boring, just like WoW.
Playing for the team doesn't matter. I'd say someone who plays for the team is better vested and therefor more likely to care even more. Ever heard about team rivalry?
Red Sox vs Yankees?
Are you saying sports rivalries are stupid? Its what makes it fun and exciting
and you can also play for both teams in this instance
This is the big thing. It's like someone played the game and decided to play on a faction for whatever-the-hell arbitrary reason and you suddenly hate them for it when you could have just as easily done the same thing when you started playing.
You could also pick two sports teams. Same deal. I don't look much like an ugly orc or an undead, so I picked the faction that was closer to what I felt Jesus thought was right for me.
In that regard, its like rooting against the devil and his minions. Even more exciting.
Well yes, but the difference is people bet money on those games and the player's salaries are probably based on how well they do.
We're not getting anything for playing in PVP; in fact, we're paying blizzard to play in it. So limiting yourself to half the choices in a certain aspect of the game for arbitrary reasons is pretty silly.
Oh, I have a good reason for my deep hatred of alliance players. Could it be the lack of basic knowledge of the English language? The ineptitude at pvp on such a great scale that I'm convinced there is some conspiracy afoot targeted solely at me. There's no way that someone who spends hundreds of hours playing a video game could be so unbelievably incompetent unless there is some deeper reason behind it.
and you can also play for both teams in this instance
This is the big thing. It's like someone played the game and decided to play on a faction for whatever-the-hell arbitrary reason and you suddenly hate them for it when you could have just as easily done the same thing when you started playing.
You could also pick two sports teams. Same deal. I don't look much like an ugly orc or an undead, so I picked the faction that was closer to what I felt Jesus thought was right for me.
In that regard, its like rooting against the devil and his minions. Even more exciting.
As someone who's played 70+ on both factions, both sides have retards, both sides have assholes, and both sides have intelligent people. In broad terms the biggest difference I've seen is that Horde tend towards being stuck-up, elitist, and arrogant; whereas alliance tend to be a bit more noobish and stupid. But there are exceptions to the rules on both sides.
Well yes, but the difference is people bet money on those games and the player's salaries are probably based on how well they do.
We're not getting anything for playing in PVP; in fact, we're paying blizzard to play in it. So limiting yourself to half the choices in a certain aspect of the game for arbitrary reasons is pretty silly.
Doesn't matter, reward are rewards. Salary = Loot. Betting is further motivation to have a team win but not does not make any further distinction between reasons to root for an organized group independent of merits.
Futhermore, without bets, rooting for your faction in WoW is much more important and has a much more direct impact on your success than a sports team does.
WoW, the Cubs won? I'm happy but I'm still just as broke as I was before they won since I didn't bet money on it. Or I'm even more broke if I bet money against them.
But Alliance win, take territory? I get gear and options directly related to that success. So really, i'm morei nvested in my faction than I am in any sports team.
maybe you could get some free time to make a twink and play with everyone else
No, see, I'm actually quite good at PvP so I don't have to make a twink.
How do you define twink?
'Character with best available items, enchants, proffessions, consumables, stats, talents, glyphs, gems'?
Cause that is just as, if not more, time consuming to achieve at 80 as it is at 19. And to be quite good at 80 you need pretty much exactly that depending on class.
All I am saying is that up until the BoA stuff, twinking was perfectly achievable with no higher level character making it no different than any other purely-PvP geared character. I've been in battlegrounds at all levels in greens and blues, including 80. It is just as impossible to play in bad gear then as at 19
you needed a level 70+ character to bug your pant enchant
Unless you are referring to something from wrath, you could easily pay for someone to apply the clefthide to your BoE trousers.
Like I said, until they made BoA items twinks had no need for high level characters on the account. So blizz seems even more stupid by encouraging it.
Your playing a satanic game and worshiping false idols. You fail at your religion.
Actually, if you play with a righteous heart and mind, you can do a lot of good through WoW on the Alliance.
Even Death Knights. They're just born again with a righteous mission. Now if a human death knight decided to join the Orcs that would be a different story.
We actually talked about this awhile back in my church's young adult group. WoW was officially "blessed" lol.
Your playing a satanic game and worshiping false idols. You fail at your religion.
Actually, if you play with a righteous heart and mind, you can do a lot of good through WoW on the Alliance.
Even Death Knights. They're just born again with a righteous mission. Now if a human death knight decided to join the Orcs that would be a different story.
We actually talked about this awhile back in my church's young adult group. WoW was officially "blessed" lol.
Posts
Yes, all of these things can be done at level 80. Which is currently the max level, the end game. Well done.
The moment you ding 80 you are now in the end game (or, by another definition, the moment you step into the highest difficulty max level dungeon). From there on, it's just a matter of participating in it.
"The end" and "end game" are two different things.
There are plenty of people currently at level 80, and plenty of people doing Ulduar which is the currently highest difficulty dungeon in the game.
And even someone had, it would still be completely irrelevant to anything I've said.
Yes, many people like to partake and take joy in things that they know aggravates and inconveniences others. These people are often known as assholes.
Well, I'm not a fan of debating with a thick, dense rock, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the right and wrong way to play a video game.
Have fun playing your version of WoW, and the rest of us will be playing our version. I like my version better, it has more stuff in it than just one dungeon.
And on a personal note, I'm sorry that twinks make you so angry. Maybe if you weren't so busy running that one dungeon over and over again, maybe you could get some free time to make a twink and play with everyone else. Who knows, you might enjoy it.
No, see, I'm actually quite good at PvP so I don't have to make a twink.
How do you define twink?
'Character with best available items, enchants, proffessions, consumables, stats, talents, glyphs, gems'?
Cause that is just as, if not more, time consuming to achieve at 80 as it is at 19. And to be quite good at 80 you need pretty much exactly that depending on class.
All I am saying is that up until the BoA stuff, twinking was perfectly achievable with no higher level character making it no different than any other purely-PvP geared character. I've been in battlegrounds at all levels in greens and blues, including 80. It is just as impossible to play in bad gear then as at 19
you needed a level 70+ character to bug your pant enchant
You're a funny guy.
HURK!
Now, back to the unpopular side of the debate!
Really all I can come up with is: The dead horse casual vs hardcore debate. slurpeepoop is the only person that has made any kind of sense and had any reasonable things to say, and you have elitist comebacks when really, you're the casual in this scenerio.
There are people who play low level battlegrounds at a hardcore level. They have maximized themselves in their specific corner of the game. You hate them because you want to be able to play casually in their hardcore world. It's somehow unfair that they are more hardcore than you so it should be removed and then everyone can be casual...
We're not talking about running the same raids for months and trying to get those PvE items to complete hard mode achievements, we're not talking about forming a streamlined comp and perfecting strategies for arenas, we're not talking about arranging 40 people with that preform AV thing, we're talking about a few dungeon runs and enchants.
The idea that it's unintended to maximize a character in any aspect of the game is absurd. This games entire draw is maximizing something or another for whatever you choose to do. You're just pissed that it's outside your cookie cutter idea of what you want the game to be. I've put some time into maximizing my character for fishing skill, would you have them take that away because I can fish successfully in some areas without a lure where you can't? See how stupid that sounds?
Think about when you step into a BG at 80 in your welfare raid epics and my-cock-is-huge PvP purplez. You see a guy who just dinged 80 in his quest greens. Oh great, *that guy,* bringing the team down. This is YOU at level 19/29/39. The guy who didn't even bother to have the crafted resilience gear made and expects the rest of the people to carry him to glory.
I also fail to see how being able to PvP at max level makes you somehow exempt from putting forth the minimal effort to gear out an alt to be on equal footing with these totally broken, unfair people. If you're spending that much time in low level BGs to the point that the twink plague effects you in any way... Really? An afternoon of time is too hard?
I still have no desire to make a twink. I'm a carebear. I don't even kill stuff in PvE, I heal stuff. But apparently now I'm one of those cock twink supporters because I really feel you *should* get your ass handed to you by someone who put forth the effort to gain an advantage. It's not "World of Faircraft" after all.
mmmm faster you filthy pervert
If someone is new to world of warcraft's and their first experience of PvP in the game is dying repeatedly to twinks in bg's there are consequences. Since they have no way of knowing what a twink is or why they are getting crushed so badly they could easily come to the conclusions that the game is completely ridiculously unbalanced and pvp of all types at any level is so unbalanced the pvp aspect of the game is unplayable and unsubscribe.
After all, my experiences in age of Conan were that pvp was unbalanced and not fun and based on my low level pvp experiences I stopped playing and I've had friends start playing WoW and after getting butthurt in bg's I had to explain to them about twinks and that it's not their fault they got butthurt and the pvp does get better.
What sounds stupid is thinking that people are ridiculous in not want to get turned over a barrel just for wanting a quick game or two on their journey upward.
I think Blizzard agrees with the idea that these tiers were never intended for the purpose of "maximized [twinks] in their specific corner of the game" considering their comments about BGs possibly giving xp in the future. In fact, its pretty obvious to me that they made these tiers so people wouldn't have to deal with overwhelming force from others that were higher level than them when wanting to pvp at a lower level.
If you think that makes me 'butthurt' because I got my ass beat by a twink - sure, fine, think that.
the would surely beat you one on one, but if you had a friend with you they were no more dangerous than any other rogue with two cruel barbs
the TBC enchants/heirloom gear made twinking less "low level pvp" and more "twinks vs twinks while also one shotting any other non twinks"
BGs are fun only because they are the last tactical pvp in this game, and twinks remove any and all tactics
I play alliance and do everything I can to help them win in every place I can. Am I going to let my level 10-19 allies get beat up by Horde twinks? NO. I'm going to step up and defend them and help them through these rough BG patches.
Watch out, Horde. Your tears only make me twink more.
like fat pride
or retard pride
I'm sorry if your faction isn't good but I try to make mine as good as possible no matter what level of play.
Really?
No, you have to be kidding. No one can take a game this seriously and still be intelligent enough to type a coherent sentence.
and you can also play for both teams in this instance
Anyway- My point still stands.
People keep missing the forest for the trees. There is a HUGE difference between "maximizing yourself" and "unfair advantage".
Again, at the end game, you will NOT see one rogue with FIVE TIMES the hp of another. Even IF one rogue is in quest greens and another is in full T8 at 80, there will not be a five-fold difference in stats.
however, taking a look back at the two rogues I posted earlier, it seems they have been brought more in line now. The uber-twink now only has 1.3k health compared to 450 health. Those are much "fairer" odds than 2.3k vs 450.
1.3k vs 450 is "maximizing yourself" and 2.3k vs 450 is "unfair advantage".
The second set of odds does not happen ANYWHERE else in-game but low level pvp. (and doesn't anymore ANYWAY so it is no longer an issue).
This is the big thing. It's like someone played the game and decided to play on a faction for whatever-the-hell arbitrary reason and you suddenly hate them for it when you could have just as easily done the same thing when you started playing.
Playing for the team doesn't matter. I'd say someone who plays for the team is better vested and therefor more likely to care even more. Ever heard about team rivalry?
Red Sox vs Yankees?
Are you saying sports rivalries are stupid? Its what makes it fun and exciting
You could also pick two sports teams. Same deal. I don't look much like an ugly orc or an undead, so I picked the faction that was closer to what I felt Jesus thought was right for me.
In that regard, its like rooting against the devil and his minions. Even more exciting.
We're not getting anything for playing in PVP; in fact, we're paying blizzard to play in it. So limiting yourself to half the choices in a certain aspect of the game for arbitrary reasons is pretty silly.
Oh, horde players are assholes, too.
yes but that would also be retarded
you could switch orcs for humans and people wouldn't notice
Doesn't matter, reward are rewards. Salary = Loot. Betting is further motivation to have a team win but not does not make any further distinction between reasons to root for an organized group independent of merits.
Futhermore, without bets, rooting for your faction in WoW is much more important and has a much more direct impact on your success than a sports team does.
WoW, the Cubs won? I'm happy but I'm still just as broke as I was before they won since I didn't bet money on it. Or I'm even more broke if I bet money against them.
But Alliance win, take territory? I get gear and options directly related to that success. So really, i'm morei nvested in my faction than I am in any sports team.
Plus, most of horde is satanic.
Why? This thread took a turn from the retarded to the hilarious.
Your playing a satanic game and worshiping false idols. You fail at your religion.
Unless you are referring to something from wrath, you could easily pay for someone to apply the clefthide to your BoE trousers.
Like I said, until they made BoA items twinks had no need for high level characters on the account. So blizz seems even more stupid by encouraging it.
Actually, if you play with a righteous heart and mind, you can do a lot of good through WoW on the Alliance.
Even Death Knights. They're just born again with a righteous mission. Now if a human death knight decided to join the Orcs that would be a different story.
We actually talked about this awhile back in my church's young adult group. WoW was officially "blessed" lol.
I'm pretty well versed on the subject, actually.
hahaha
wait
which church