[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] The Ballot Box isn't even half empty.

RMS Oceanic

So this archipelago



Has these nations.



These nations are almost completely not unique in that they're run by a system known as Politics!

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Run by these chaps



This guy would rather they didn't



Some of the Issues
- Austerity and Deficit Reduction
- Broadband Infrastructure
- Our role in Europe
- Our role in Iraq/Afghanistan
- A balding man and the daughter of a working class couple done good making babby

A spiffing place to keep up to date with the latest developments.

Irish Silesia An Poblacht na hÉireann

Run by this chap.



These guys would rather he didn't.




Some of The Issues
- A mountain of debt taken on by ill advisedly backing toxic bank debt
- Loss of confidence in the market
- Humiliating bailout by the EU
- Perceived resultant loss of Sovereignty
- And more austerity and deficit reduction
- Or maybe we should just default? [/Meaningful Look at Brussels]
- Abortion and the best way to send Death Threats
- Abolishing the Senate: Not just a topic for America or Star Wars threads!

A shockin' good place to see what the feck the craic is.

So, discuss the goings on in the Dail and the Commons!

RMS Oceanic

So to kick off the new thread, Green MP Caroline Lucas wore completely inappropriate clothing to a discussion on Sexism and was asked to cover up:

Tastyfish

She should have expected that, and then covered it up with a T-shirt like this


Then covered that up with a thick jumper and a pair of fake boobs.

Euphoriac

Right because if we ban page 3, kids will never see boobs again 'til they're eighteen, and that'll fix everything....

Much bigger fucking problems going on in the UK right now...

815165

I dunno if it's a "think of the children" issue or more of an issue of putting less emphasis on the appearance of women being the most important facet of them.

Granted it's a drop in the ocean but that's probably not a reason to ignore it.

V1m

It's mind numbingly trivial tbh. I mean maybe 20 years ago, but then this thing called The Internet happened and now I doubt curious boys even know there is a "page 3" any more

Bogart

I guess it's trivial, but that's not a reason not to point out how rubbish it is and how the girls in it are simultaneously ogled and sneered at for being thick. The little captions now carry some political point of view straight from the mouth of the editorial team that's designed to make you roll your eyes at how unlikely it must be for a pretty young thing to spell the long words.

It's also a prominent, long-standing example of objectification that's given respectability by being in what is supposed to be a family newspaper. It makes an excellent high-profile focus for people who think it would be better if we didn't do that quite so much.

In no way should it supplant efforts to deal with weightier issues (public services being cut, legal aid for filthy poor people being made into a bargain basement swap shop, corruption, etc), but "oh we don't have time for this" is the same argument the Tories are using to try and bury gay marriage legislation. The arena of public debate has room for lots of things.

I don't particularly want this to be legislated against or banned, to be honest, but I don't begrudge a campaign designed to pressure NI into dropping it.

V1m

Bogart wrote: »

I guess it's trivial, but that's not a reason not to point out how rubbish it is and how the girls in it are simultaneously ogled and sneered at for being thick. The little captions now carry some political point of view straight from the mouth of the editorial team that's designed to make you roll your eyes at how unlikely it must be for a pretty young thing to spell the long words.

It's also a prominent, long-standing example of objectification that's given respectability by being in what is supposed to be a family newspaper. It makes an excellent high-profile focus for people who think it would be better if we didn't do that quite so much.

In no way should it supplant efforts to deal with weightier issues (public services being cut, legal aid for filthy poor people being made into a bargain basement swap shop, corruption, etc), but "oh we don't have time for this" is the same argument the Tories are using to try and bury gay marriage legislation. The arena of public debate has room for lots of things.

I don't particularly want this to be legislated against or banned, to be honest, but I don't begrudge a campaign designed to pressure NI into dropping it.

In terms of issues I care about it's right up there with parliament debating how the people 4 doors down from me don't bring their bins to the road like they're supposed to on recycling day, but just leave them by their door, forcing the binmen to take an extra 30 seconds.

Yes, technically it's a problem because they shouldn't do that. I just don't see how it's worth a microsecond of parliamentary time when we have national problems that actually affect people which could be addressed in that time instead.

Basically: priorites.

Bogart

The parliamentary debate was about sexism in general, I think, not just about Page 3. Given how lots of the other problems in which we're hip deep disproportionately affect women (more unemployed, more adversely affected by cuts, etc) it doesn't seem unreasonable to have some parliamentary time on that. If they spent the entire time talking about Page 3 then yes, that would seem to be a bit of a waste.

Kalkino

In the spirit of wider EU solidarity, I suggest this thread be open to political news from the Continent. We can shine a light on their murky dealings, from these islands, these Cities on the Hill

V1m

Hearing about other peoples horrible governments always cheers me up somewhat, so in that spirit, I agree!

V1m

I mean that's going to be the best part of scottish independence if it happens.

Kalkino

and of course the abortion debate in Ireland is getting nasty, as per usual for this kind of debate

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/antiabortion-activists-send-letters-in-blood-branding-irish-pm-as-a-murderer/1128538/

RMS Oceanic

Known Radical Socialist threatens to bring Belfast to a standstill on Monday.

Kalkino

RMS Oceanic wrote: »

Known Radical Socialist threatens to bring Belfast to a standstill on Monday.

Make sure you bring an appropriate placard to work that day.

"Free Bradley Manning from the Death Panel Prism!"

V1m

"Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?"

wilting

OP might want to mention the stupid abortion debate and the stupid referendum on abolishing the Seanad in Ireland. Not just the economy is stupid!

Kalkino wrote: »

In the spirit of wider EU solidarity, I suggest this thread be open to political news from the Continent. We can shine a light on their murky dealings, from these islands, these Cities on the Hill

I was considering starting an EU thread. Its reasonable enough for this thread to be a general European politics thread. Think about all the Berlusconi jokes that could be made. Also Turkish protest could be discussed (Turkey may not be European to some, but it is certainly a European state).

Might have to put up with my federalist rantings though.

RMS Oceanic wrote: »

Known Radical Socialist threatens to bring Belfast to a standstill on Monday.

Nearly missed a flight out of Dublin thanks to the Obama visit.

RMS Oceanic

In that regard, having a Referendum on developing the park in question seems odd, so I suspect like Cameron and the Scottish question, it's an arena he's confident he can win in.

Kalkino

wilting wrote: »

Kalkino wrote: »

In the spirit of wider EU solidarity, I suggest this thread be open to political news from the Continent. We can shine a light on their murky dealings, from these islands, these Cities on the Hill

I was considering starting an EU thread. Its reasonable enough for this thread to be a general European politics thread. Think about all the Berlusconi jokes that could be made. Also Turkish protest could be discussed (Turkey may not be European to some, but it is certainly a European state).

Might have to put up with my federalist rantings though.

Oh it all deserves its own thread, but there just isn't enough of us on this forum to make it a vibrant ongoing thread as opposed to a one-off. I think there is value in a central ongoing discussion thread, so if we have to combine, so be it

V1m

It's pretty trivial to load questions to get the answer you want.

RMS Oceanic

So I read up a bit on abolishing the Seanad, as I admit I'm no expert on politics south of Newry: I don't know what the benefits of adopting a unicameral form of government might be, but I'm vaguely uneasy about it, like it's something more to benefit Fine Geal than truly advance democracy.

Kalkino

What is the deal with planning to abolish the Senate?

Upper Houses can be useful! Coming as I do from unicameral New Zealand, where the stalwart Tory party abolished ours in the early 1950s, I have a slight horror of anyone else doing the same. Although at least Ireland has some sort of constitutionalist position which adds a layer of protection that NZ does not

RMS Oceanic

V1m wrote: »

It's pretty trivial to load questions to get the answer you want.

Should we replace this boring old park with yet another exciting mall oh and by the way aren't puppies great?

Kalkino

RMS Oceanic wrote: »

So I read up a bit on abolishing the Seanad, as I admit I'm no expert on politics south of Newry: I don't know what the benefits of adopting a unicameral form of government might be, but I'm vaguely uneasy about it, like it's something more to benefit Fine Geal than truly advance democracy.

This could actually form an interesting thread of it's own in D&D, as it could be opened up to other people - Americans, Kiwis or Australians and others who may live in a state or country with a unicameral system. I may make poast

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicameralism

etc

V1m

RMS Oceanic wrote: »

V1m wrote: »

It's pretty trivial to load questions to get the answer you want.

Should we replace this boring old park with yet another exciting mall oh and by the way aren't puppies great?

We should bow down to the Greek-Zionist conspiracy and keep this park as a place for effeminate pedophile traitors to molest our children in (Agree/Disagree)

RMS Oceanic

V1m wrote: »

RMS Oceanic wrote: »

V1m wrote: »

It's pretty trivial to load questions to get the answer you want.

Should we replace this boring old park with yet another exciting mall oh and by the way aren't puppies great?

We should bow down to the Greek-Zionist conspiracy and keep this park as a place for effeminate pedophile traitors to molest our children in (Agree/Disagree)

Don't you not want to never unsee a heinously brilliant non-system of commercial generation instead of not stressing out about how ungreen the city is?

Okay, even I don't know what that question is asking.

wilting

The referendum for one park thing is quite strange.

The argument being made to abolish the Seanad is:

- Ireland has too many politicians
- The Seanad doesn't work

So a populist appeal to getting rid of it is easier than the political challenge of reducing the size of the Dail and reforming both houses.

Generally, I don't like it because of lack of imagination, its failure to actually provide any meaningful reform to Irish politics, massive overhaul of the constitution, and combination with/compounding of other authoritarian moves by this Government.

You really don't want a unicameral system for three reasons:

1) General principal
2) In a parliamentary democracy
3) In a system where executive power is continually growing due to policy increasingly being decided between Governments at EU level

The real problem with the Irish political system is the predominance of "parish pump" local/pork politics, which is a product to the electoral system (wouldn't have been a problem in the UK if it adopted AV because of single seat constituencies). The vast majority of TDs time goes to constituency work.

Personally, I would cut the number of TDs in the Dail, change the electoral system to a list system, make non-leadership cabinet positions unelected appointments, totally eliminating the local/pork problem (and hopefully getting competent people into cabinet). Then the Seanad would have 26 seats elected by AV, one for every county (with voting weighted to population), where the constituency representation gets done (Senators would require a fair bit of staff for this).

Bonus points if the Seanad gets 6 non-voting seats for the Northern counties.

Kalkino

Your post does make me a bit angry as it seems clear that the referendum is not really about the right topic and won't really address any meaningful reform.

Ugh. Maybe that is problem with referendums.

I do slightly disagree with your points about unicameralism as it can and does work in various places, like my home country. I prefer bicameralism but I prefer to make the point that a well designed upper house should help democracy and good governance

wilting

I'd be pro unicameralism in a Presidential democracy but very wary of it in a Parliamentary one. I'm not particularly familiar with the examples of it though.

Clown Shoes

The biggest problem with removing page three is that people might start to mistake the Sun for a real newspaper.

poshniallo

I'm really interested in an upper house of jurists (normal people chosen randomly).

Now, I know this is a radical idea, and not going to happen any time soon in a nation that chooses Boris Johnson and rejects PR, but is the idea itself ridiculous? I tend to embrace radical ideas very easily, so maybe I'm an idiot, but wouldn't this be much fairer and more inclusive than the current House of Lords.

Rhesus Positive

As somebody who deals with normal people a fair amount, my immediate instinct is to recoil in horror at that idea.

Clown Shoes

It's not like the current crop of lords are there for their legislative prowess.

Kalkino

Clown Shoes wrote: »

It's not like the current crop of lords are there for their legislative prowess.

Geth knows.

The problem is that the Lords sort of works in a way that is hard to explain, except to say it seems to sometimes act as a genuine chamber of review and sometimes act as a route for the parliamentary party to bring in specialists to the cabinet.

In some countries the cabinet are simply appointed by whomever the head of government likes - with the chance that one appoints competent specialists. It is a nice theory anyway.

By comparison, in NZ, we have one chamber and all ministers must be elected to that chamber before being appointed. So, we run the gubmint out of 121 or so people who managed to get themselves elected. This doesn't always fill me with confidence. Not that say the UK's in effect appointed ministers from the Lords are always that much better.

Kalkino

The new Life in the UK test has now been compared to a bad pub quiz.

Fair comment in my view, if what I've heard is accurate. The old test was a bit silly but at least asked practical questions (e.g. where do you get family planning advice etc). Both are a bit pointless though in my mind. The current and former tests are so easy to train for that it is possible to pass the test in a couple of minutes. What is the point of that? If one wants genuinely to make sure people know enough to "integrate" then how does an incredibly easy test help that? Either don't do it at all, or make a proper course on citizenship. Classes, compulsory attendance and flag ceremonies for all (kidding about this last bit)


The handbook contains about 3,000 facts including five telephone numbers, 34 websites, 278 historical dates and several brief excerpts of poetry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22892444

poshniallo

Kalkino wrote: »

The new Life in the UK test has now been compared to a bad pub quiz.

Fair comment in my view, if what I've heard is accurate. The old test was a bit silly but at least asked practical questions (e.g. where do you get family planning advice etc). Both are a bit pointless though in my mind. The current and former tests are so easy to train for that it is possible to pass the test in a couple of minutes. What is the point of that? If one wants genuinely to make sure people know enough to "integrate" then how does an incredibly easy test help that? Either don't do it at all, or make a proper course on citizenship. Classes, compulsory attendance and flag ceremonies for all (kidding about this last bit)


The handbook contains about 3,000 facts including five telephone numbers, 34 websites, 278 historical dates and several brief excerpts of poetry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22892444

Well, you're a clever bloke and a native English speaker. That's not true of most people.

Edit: I read the article, and yeah that sounds like a joke. But not because of the difficulty - because of the content.

Kalkino

Sure, I accept I and any other uni grad would find it easier than most but there is a proper training industry around this test Posh, with at least three official training books and an app, let alone third party providers and courses. You can also sit the test as often as you want.

Rhesus Positive

A Home Office spokesman said: "We've stripped out mundane information about water meters, train timetables, and using the internet. The new test rightly focuses on values and principles at the heart of being British. Instead of telling people how to claim benefits, it encourages participation in British life."

And this includes being able to quote details from memory of the first curry house, apparently.

This is just a way to ensure only the most tedious conversationalists get UK citizenship (present company excepted, Kalkino).

Dis'

Kalkino wrote: »

Sure, I accept I and any other uni grad would find it easier than most but there is a proper training industry around this test Posh, with at least three official training books and an app, let alone third party providers and courses. You can also sit the test as often as you want.

Well you see, although they've crossed continents and spent money on the citizenship process, someone planning on being a lazy benefits scrounger/evil terrorist would just give up in the face of having to remember some poetry.

Its a foolproof system.

Kalkino

So the right wing branch of the Tories attempts to troll the UK

The 42 bills also include legislation to scrap wind farm subsidies, end the ringfence for foreign aid spending and rename the late August Bank Holiday “Margaret Thatcher Day”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10133076/Conservative-MPs-launch-attempt-to-bring-back-death-penalty-privatise-the-BBC-and-ban-burka.html

Nuzak

Margret Thatcher day will be celebrated with fireworks at the grand hotel in brighton