I would strongly recommend against buying old adventures at this point if you are looking to be thrifty. The single player fun is very short lived, and as folks mentioned, the cards you get are going to rotate out of standard. As a new player, you really want to worry about standard, not wild, especially as standard is losing a bunch of cards in a few months, you will not be nearly as far behind.
Also, dust value per gold is one. Thing, but opening a card you don't have is worth 4 times as much. I would consider buying karazan with real money in a while if you decide to stick with the game, and strongly considering buying whatever adventure comes out this year (it'll be good for two years in standard), but otherwise, classic and gadgetzan packs.
That said, I think the value of arena has been very understated. Playing arena is way more enjoyable than constructed as a new player since you're on equal footing, and if you get even reasonable at it its as many or more packs per gold than just buying them. You get to play with all sorts of different cards that you don't own, too. I personally have never bought a pack with gold, I always do arena.
I think everyone can agree that aggro is good for the game: it keeps control decks honest and ensures diversity on ladder. But the pirate package and shit like Flamewreathed Faceless are just too strong and make aggro too hard to beat without specifically playing an anti-aggro deck, which is not how things should be.
Historically speaking, Blizzard underestimate drawback mechanics. Things like "you need to play deathrattles to make Undertaker grow!" and "You'll need to have spellpower to make this weapon have 3 attack!" and "You'll need to have a weapon to play this flame imp!"
I still haven't recovered from them saying "But Undertaker is a bad draw on turn 9"
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
"You need to play deathrattles to grow Undertaker" was especially stupid because of how insanely powerful Naxx deathrattles were. Everyone was running those cards anyway!
I think everyone can agree that aggro is good for the game: it keeps control decks honest and ensures diversity on ladder. But the pirate package and shit like Flamewreathed Faceless are just too strong and make aggro too hard to beat without specifically playing an anti-aggro deck, which is not how things should be.
Aggro is too fast. Reno is great if you live to turn 6 and draw him. Too many games end by turn 4-5.
Any deck without reno has a hard time stabilizing because board control doesn't mean anything past turn 5. You either die to weapons or damage from hand at that point.
Yeah, I played Arena for 4 months building up my collection and learning the game (if you can go 3-3 it's essentially the same value as packs, plus you get access to stuff outside your collection), then switched to ranked exclusively where it took me 3 or so months to hit rank 5. This was back in vanilla but I imagine it still holds true.
I think everyone can agree that aggro is good for the game: it keeps control decks honest and ensures diversity on ladder. But the pirate package and shit like Flamewreathed Faceless are just too strong and make aggro too hard to beat without specifically playing an anti-aggro deck, which is not how things should be.
Aggro is too fast. Reno is great if you live to turn 6 and draw him. Too many games end by turn 4-5.
Any deck without reno has a hard time stabilizing because board control doesn't mean anything past turn 5. You either die to weapons or damage from hand at that point.
But yeah, aggro is good for the game.
This is probably the part that annoys me the most. Even if you "stabilize" and finally clear the board, you're ~20+ health behind and the opponent can afford to ignore whatever board you're building while they smash you in the face with an arcanite reaper, or finish you off with jade lightning or eviscerate.
Reno is the only thing that lets you extend a game far enough that aggro decks run out of steam, and then you need Kazakus to set up some kind of win condition against any other deck that's playing Reno.
The really frustrating part is aside from Finley, nothing is set to rotate out in the next 2 years, and he's not even a crucial component.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
I think everyone can agree that aggro is good for the game: it keeps control decks honest and ensures diversity on ladder. But the pirate package and shit like Flamewreathed Faceless are just too strong and make aggro too hard to beat without specifically playing an anti-aggro deck, which is not how things should be.
In a vacuum or another card game, yes, but Blizzard hasn't successfully had a season which was dominated by strong control/combo decks since maybe when Mind Control was 8 mana and I'd wager that was more due to the game being brand new at that point, and I don't even think that dominated.
Edit: And I don't even want to lump Combo decks in there, because Miracle Rogue has always survived and that kind of makes the viability of actual control decks invisible if we're always lumping Combo in with them.
I think everyone can agree that aggro is good for the game: it keeps control decks honest and ensures diversity on ladder. But the pirate package and shit like Flamewreathed Faceless are just too strong and make aggro too hard to beat without specifically playing an anti-aggro deck, which is not how things should be.
In a vacuum or another card game, yes, but Blizzard hasn't successfully had a season which was dominated by strong control/combo decks since maybe when Mind Control was 8 mana and I'd wager that was more due to the game being brand new at that point, and I don't even think that dominated.
Edit: And I don't even want to lump Combo decks in there, because Miracle Rogue has always survived and that kind of makes the viability of actual control decks invisible if we're always lumping Combo in with them.
Miracle Rogue was insanely dominant for the first couple of seasons. There have been times when control warrior and handlock posted incredibly strong finishes and were top ladder decks.
It's just the case that often players will gravitate toward the aggro decks because of the ladder structure. And interestingly, something I learned recently, people apparently REALLY like aggro decks smashing into each other. There's a strong segment of players out there that have no interest in 20+ minute games. They want games that end quickly.
I think everyone can agree that aggro is good for the game: it keeps control decks honest and ensures diversity on ladder. But the pirate package and shit like Flamewreathed Faceless are just too strong and make aggro too hard to beat without specifically playing an anti-aggro deck, which is not how things should be.
Historically speaking, Blizzard underestimate drawback mechanics. Things like "you need to play deathrattles to make Undertaker grow!" and "You'll need to have spellpower to make this weapon have 3 attack!" and "You'll need to have a weapon to play this flame imp!"
The risk vs reward is way off. It should be "if you don't meet this requirement this card is bad, but if you do, this card is good" - instead we get "if you don't meet this requirement this card would be unplayable, but if you do this card is actually crazy broken"
The opposite of this was the main criticism for most joust cards. It's a very hard balance to hit.
It's just the case that often players will gravitate toward the aggro decks because of the ladder structure. And interestingly, something I learned recently, people apparently REALLY like aggro decks smashing into each other. There's a strong segment of players out there that have no interest in 20+ minute games. They want games that end quickly.
This idea that Control decks by definition all have to go 20+ minutes is really silly. You can have Control decks which have fast games: they win by repeatedly clearing the board, drawing cards, exhausting their opponent of resources, and then winning via whatever win condition they have in their deck, usually large minions or a combo of some sort. If I have 7 cards, and you have 1 because the last three turns everything you've played died to my spells, then yea, I've pretty much won.
Seraph Control Combo from Shadowverse is a Control Combo deck. It's a Control deck with quasi-minions, a ton of draw, spell and minion-based minion removal, and board wipes. And it wins the game on Turn 9 if it can accelerate its win condition. But if it can't accelerate its win condition (and the opponent doesn't Odin), wins anyway on turn 10-12 because that's naturally how long it would take Seraph to countdown if it wasn't accelerated. If it can't control the board with its Amulets, it Wraths on turn 6, and then up to two more times if it can draw more Wraths.
Now, these aren't turn 4 victories, no, but they also aren't "I'm taking 10 points of fatigue damage next turn but still going to win" victories either.
Guys when you just start the average dust value of packs is 0.
Only after you amass enough cards to start seeing duplicates is when the dust starts flowing.
Sure you can dust unwanted one-off cards but really you never now which cards you"re going to need at any given time.
When you start the minimum dust value of a pack is 260, because that would be the cost of crafting 4 commons and a rare from scratch.
Also a new player should very quickly learn which one-offs they should dust, because 5 cards you never use is worse than 1 good card you use all the time.
3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
+1
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
Incidentally, Blizzard should steal Rush as a keyword from Shadowverse.
It's Charge, except the minion can't hit face. So you use the minion exclusively to clear other minions.
Guys when you just start the average dust value of packs is 0.
Only after you amass enough cards to start seeing duplicates is when the dust starts flowing.
Sure you can dust unwanted one-off cards but really you never now which cards you"re going to need at any given time.
When you start the minimum dust value of a pack is 260, because that would be the cost of crafting 4 commons and a rare from scratch.
Also a new player should very quickly learn which one-offs they should dust, because 5 cards you never use is worse than 1 good card you use all the time.
Erm...you need dust to craft cards. Disenchanting 4 reg and 1 rare does not yield 260 dust
I think everyone can agree that aggro is good for the game: it keeps control decks honest and ensures diversity on ladder. But the pirate package and shit like Flamewreathed Faceless are just too strong and make aggro too hard to beat without specifically playing an anti-aggro deck, which is not how things should be.
Historically speaking, Blizzard underestimate drawback mechanics. Things like "you need to play deathrattles to make Undertaker grow!" and "You'll need to have spellpower to make this weapon have 3 attack!" and "You'll need to have a weapon to play this flame imp!"
The risk vs reward is way off. It should be "if you don't meet this requirement this card is bad, but if you do, this card is good" - instead we get "if you don't meet this requirement this card would be unplayable, but if you do this card is actually crazy broken"
The opposite of this was the main criticism for most joust cards. It's a very hard balance to hit.
Yeah but Joust is a shit mechanic. It doesn't in any way interact with the board state, so it's the epitome of random. You have very little control over the requirement aside from your deck composition. There's no real synergy with anything and no way to set up any sort of strategy with a joust. It's just a coin flip, and nobody outside of ramp druid ever plays into it.
Cog on
+3
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Metal JaredMulligan WizardRhode IslandRegistered Userregular
Guys when you just start the average dust value of packs is 0.
Only after you amass enough cards to start seeing duplicates is when the dust starts flowing.
Sure you can dust unwanted one-off cards but really you never now which cards you"re going to need at any given time.
When you start the minimum dust value of a pack is 260, because that would be the cost of crafting 4 commons and a rare from scratch.
Also a new player should very quickly learn which one-offs they should dust, because 5 cards you never use is worse than 1 good card you use all the time.
Erm...you need dust to craft cards. Disenchanting 4 reg and 1 rare does not yield 260 dust
Yes but to create 4 commons and one rare you need 260 dust.
It's just the case that often players will gravitate toward the aggro decks because of the ladder structure. And interestingly, something I learned recently, people apparently REALLY like aggro decks smashing into each other. There's a strong segment of players out there that have no interest in 20+ minute games. They want games that end quickly.
This idea that Control decks by definition all have to go 20+ minutes is really silly. You can have Control decks which have fast games: they win by repeatedly clearing the board, drawing cards, exhausting their opponent of resources, and then winning via whatever win condition they have in their deck, usually large minions or a combo of some sort. If I have 7 cards, and you have 1 because the last three turns everything you've played died to my spells, then yea, I've pretty much won.
Seraph Control Combo from Shadowverse is a Control Combo deck. It's a Control deck with quasi-minions, a ton of draw, spell and minion-based minion removal, and board wipes. And it wins the game on Turn 9 if it can accelerate its win condition. But if it can't accelerate its win condition (and the opponent doesn't Odin), wins anyway on turn 10-12 because that's naturally how long it would take Seraph to countdown if it wasn't accelerated. If it can't control the board with its Amulets, it Wraths on turn 6, and then up to two more times if it can draw more Wraths.
Now, these aren't turn 4 victories, no, but they also aren't "I'm taking 10 points of fatigue damage next turn but still going to win" victories either.
I think everyone can agree that aggro is good for the game: it keeps control decks honest and ensures diversity on ladder. But the pirate package and shit like Flamewreathed Faceless are just too strong and make aggro too hard to beat without specifically playing an anti-aggro deck, which is not how things should be.
In a vacuum or another card game, yes, but Blizzard hasn't successfully had a season which was dominated by strong control/combo decks since maybe when Mind Control was 8 mana and I'd wager that was more due to the game being brand new at that point, and I don't even think that dominated.
Edit: And I don't even want to lump Combo decks in there, because Miracle Rogue has always survived and that kind of makes the viability of actual control decks invisible if we're always lumping Combo in with them.
Miracle Rogue was insanely dominant for the first couple of seasons. There have been times when control warrior and handlock posted incredibly strong finishes and were top ladder decks.
It's just the case that often players will gravitate toward the aggro decks because of the ladder structure. And interestingly, something I learned recently, people apparently REALLY like aggro decks smashing into each other. There's a strong segment of players out there that have no interest in 20+ minute games. They want games that end quickly.
well, troggs and totem golem are rotating out so that's good.
And unless they print zero 1 or 2 drops for shaman/neutral, mid-range and aggro shaman will endure.
I think Blizzard has a problem with the Rogue class, and the problem is Gadgetzan Auctioneer. That card is the cornerstone of every Rogue deck. When you have a single card that so single-handedly define a class like that, it's unhealthy for the class and innovation. And it's not only that Gadgetzan Auctioneer is so strong, it's that Blizzard has built so many cards around it: the cheap spell that facilitates the miracle in Miracle Rogue. Counterfeit Coin, Backstab, Tomb Pillager, Preparation, Van Cleef, Questing Adventurer and plenty of others have their strengths defined by Gadgetzan Auctioneer. I like the interaction and I think it's fun, but those synergies are so synonymous with the class that a nerf or removal of Auctioneer (even though it is Standard) would ruin the class unless Blizzard had a whole suite of new Rogue mechanics in the pipeline ready to replace it immediately.
People really need to learn how to think about their plays on their opponent's turn.
Toast is really bad about this. Good god man, don't start talking about what you're going to do 10 seconds into your own turn
I only started watching his stream recently and already like 3 or 4 times I've seen him assume his opponent is going to rope every turn because he roped once, and get up and go to the bathroom after he takes his own turn. And then the opponent makes an immediate play and ends turn and it's a race to see if Toast finishes pissing before he ropes himself out.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Blizzard might honestly want to consider re-introducing Adrenaline Rush for Rogue, if they want to get rid of Auctioneer.
I mentioned it before, but this new Standard rotation desperately needs to shake the game up a lot. Introduce a lot of new and refreshing changes to all game modes. Things are extremely stale and another 130+ cards won't do anything to help that much.
Right now I just complete my daily quests and feel bored. Climbing ladder isn't engaging or rewarding anymore. Streaming quirky decks and interacting with people is great, but even that will be dulled when I'm facing the same decks over and over.
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
I'd like to see more tribes and interesting tribal interactions. Even between opponents, if your opponent has X tribe on the board, and you have Y tribe, I'd like to see those interact differently if those tribes align or oppose.
I'd like to see more tribes and interesting tribal interactions. Even between opponents, if your opponent has X tribe on the board, and you have Y tribe, I'd like to see those interact differently if those tribes align or oppose.
I think Murlocs were, originally, interesting in that regard, where the Murloc buffers buffed all Murlocs.
I mentioned it before, but this new Standard rotation desperately needs to shake the game up a lot. Introduce a lot of new and refreshing changes to all game modes. Things are extremely stale and another 130+ cards won't do anything to help that much.
Right now I just complete my daily quests and feel bored. Climbing ladder isn't engaging or rewarding anymore. Streaming quirky decks and interacting with people is great, but even that will be dulled when I'm facing the same decks over and over.
I hit Rank 5 on the 14th and I haven't felt any desire to play HS since then.
I know some people think this meta is the most healthy meta the game has had, but personally it feels really awful. Reno decks are fun to play, if not somewhat oppressive to play against (Reno and Kazakus are VERY strong, especially Brann+Kazakus). Pirate decks are just toxic for the game as a whole. Nothing wrong with Aggro decks but TTK has gone from Turn 7-ish to Turn 3/4. That's not okay.
I can try playing some of the more interesting decks (Burgle Rogue!) but they just get shit on by the hyper fast Pirate decks or lose to the overbearing control of Reno decks. This whole meta seems designed around Pirates beating the snot out of everything and everyone else trying to find ways to keep Pirates in check somehow.
This meta doesn't feel good to play in, at all. Which is a shame because I thought the general card quality/design of MSG was pretty good, but none of it matters when things are, yknow, like this.
They could do stuff like taunt minions being unable to block certain tribes if they aligned or opposed, or other minions being forced or unable to attack certain tribes. They could have tribal interactions mess with card draw or healing or spell power or minion damage based on what you and your opponent are playing. Could add a lot of depth on if you would or wouldn't want to play out a certain minion yet or what order to attack things in or play your removal. You might run into an archetype you normally have no problems with, but since they're a certain tribe, you have a tough matchup, or the other way around.
I suppose the concern there is they'd feel keeping all the interactions straight would be too complex or confusing. After all, we were only recently entrusted with more than 9 deck slots.
I mentioned it before, but this new Standard rotation desperately needs to shake the game up a lot. Introduce a lot of new and refreshing changes to all game modes. Things are extremely stale and another 130+ cards won't do anything to help that much.
Right now I just complete my daily quests and feel bored. Climbing ladder isn't engaging or rewarding anymore. Streaming quirky decks and interacting with people is great, but even that will be dulled when I'm facing the same decks over and over.
I agree a million percent. I'll tell you, I was just playing a game as Shaman, and I queued into a Hunter. I immediately perked up and got excited. I was less excited when he played Cloaked Huntress and a bunch of secrets, and some other Secret Hunter garbage. I thought he was just a guy behind the times still trying to make Secret Hunter work. I proceeded to roll over him and bring him down to 2.
Then he plays Reno. Then a million deathrattle minions, then Princess Huhuran, then N'zoth. I was never happier to lose a game. This is the Hearthstone that I miss. That also shows you how stale this meta is, because it's not even a super original deck he pulled out of his ass on his own, but just seeing something other than Aggro and Reno Mage/Warlock makes me happy.
I know some people think this meta is the most healthy meta the game has had, but personally it feels really awful.
I feel like people are looking at the number of classes with viable decks and that is being misconstrued as an indication of a healthy meta. When most of those decks revolve around 1 archtype (pirate aggro) or 1-2 cards (reno/kazakus) that's not a great sign. Just because those two mechanics enable multiple classes to find a viable build doesn't mean your meta is healthy.
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Metal JaredMulligan WizardRhode IslandRegistered Userregular
I'd like to see more tribes and interesting tribal interactions. Even between opponents, if your opponent has X tribe on the board, and you have Y tribe, I'd like to see those interact differently if those tribes align or oppose.
I mentioned it before, but this new Standard rotation desperately needs to shake the game up a lot. Introduce a lot of new and refreshing changes to all game modes. Things are extremely stale and another 130+ cards won't do anything to help that much.
Right now I just complete my daily quests and feel bored. Climbing ladder isn't engaging or rewarding anymore. Streaming quirky decks and interacting with people is great, but even that will be dulled when I'm facing the same decks over and over.
I agree a million percent. I'll tell you, I was just playing a game as Shaman, and I queued into a Hunter. I immediately perked up and got excited. I was less excited when he played Cloaked Huntress and a bunch of secrets, and some other Secret Hunter garbage. I thought he was just a guy behind the times still trying to make Secret Hunter work. I proceeded to roll over him and bring him down to 2.
Then he plays Reno. Then a million deathrattle minions, then Princess Huhuran, then N'zoth. I was never happier to lose a game. This is the Hearthstone that I miss. That also shows you how stale this meta is, because it's not even a super original deck he pulled out of his ass on his own, but just seeing something other than Aggro and Reno Mage/Warlock makes me happy.
Amusingly this is the deck type I convinced Dover to stream last night and he got his shit pushed in trying to make work. :biggrin:
I'd like to see more tribes and interesting tribal interactions. Even between opponents, if your opponent has X tribe on the board, and you have Y tribe, I'd like to see those interact differently if those tribes align or oppose.
I think everyone can agree that aggro is good for the game: it keeps control decks honest and ensures diversity on ladder. But the pirate package and shit like Flamewreathed Faceless are just too strong and make aggro too hard to beat without specifically playing an anti-aggro deck, which is not how things should be.
Historically speaking, Blizzard underestimate drawback mechanics. Things like "you need to play deathrattles to make Undertaker grow!" and "You'll need to have spellpower to make this weapon have 3 attack!" and "You'll need to have a weapon to play this flame imp!"
The risk vs reward is way off. It should be "if you don't meet this requirement this card is bad, but if you do, this card is good" - instead we get "if you don't meet this requirement this card would be unplayable, but if you do this card is actually crazy broken"
The opposite of this was the main criticism for most joust cards. It's a very hard balance to hit.
I can agree for the most part. Some cards do it right, but man Spirit Claws is so off. So is Tunnel Trogg and STB.
It's just the case that often players will gravitate toward the aggro decks because of the ladder structure. And interestingly, something I learned recently, people apparently REALLY like aggro decks smashing into each other. There's a strong segment of players out there that have no interest in 20+ minute games. They want games that end quickly.
This idea that Control decks by definition all have to go 20+ minutes is really silly. You can have Control decks which have fast games: they win by repeatedly clearing the board, drawing cards, exhausting their opponent of resources, and then winning via whatever win condition they have in their deck, usually large minions or a combo of some sort. If I have 7 cards, and you have 1 because the last three turns everything you've played died to my spells, then yea, I've pretty much won.
Seraph Control Combo from Shadowverse is a Control Combo deck. It's a Control deck with quasi-minions, a ton of draw, spell and minion-based minion removal, and board wipes. And it wins the game on Turn 9 if it can accelerate its win condition. But if it can't accelerate its win condition (and the opponent doesn't Odin), wins anyway on turn 10-12 because that's naturally how long it would take Seraph to countdown if it wasn't accelerated. If it can't control the board with its Amulets, it Wraths on turn 6, and then up to two more times if it can draw more Wraths.
Now, these aren't turn 4 victories, no, but they also aren't "I'm taking 10 points of fatigue damage next turn but still going to win" victories either.
Jade Idol is a good example of a healthy end game space for a control deck, where once it has the upper hand, it wins pretty quickly.
I think Blizzard is actively trying to move from the Fatigue control strategies.
I mentioned it before, but this new Standard rotation desperately needs to shake the game up a lot. Introduce a lot of new and refreshing changes to all game modes. Things are extremely stale and another 130+ cards won't do anything to help that much.
Right now I just complete my daily quests and feel bored. Climbing ladder isn't engaging or rewarding anymore. Streaming quirky decks and interacting with people is great, but even that will be dulled when I'm facing the same decks over and over.
I agree a million percent. I'll tell you, I was just playing a game as Shaman, and I queued into a Hunter. I immediately perked up and got excited. I was less excited when he played Cloaked Huntress and a bunch of secrets, and some other Secret Hunter garbage. I thought he was just a guy behind the times still trying to make Secret Hunter work. I proceeded to roll over him and bring him down to 2.
Then he plays Reno. Then a million deathrattle minions, then Princess Huhuran, then N'zoth. I was never happier to lose a game. This is the Hearthstone that I miss. That also shows you how stale this meta is, because it's not even a super original deck he pulled out of his ass on his own, but just seeing something other than Aggro and Reno Mage/Warlock makes me happy.
Amusingly this is the deck type I convinced Dover to stream last night and he got his shit pushed in trying to make work. :biggrin:
Hahahah oh really?! I was thinking about making it, should I not? Does it not work? I think I just had no idea what was coming, so I didn't know how to play around anything. The first inkling I had that it was an N'zoth deck was when he played Sylvanas. It's not like Highmane or Infested Wolf are dead giveaways for N'zoth. By the time he played Cairne I knew I was fucked but it was also too late.
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Also, dust value per gold is one. Thing, but opening a card you don't have is worth 4 times as much. I would consider buying karazan with real money in a while if you decide to stick with the game, and strongly considering buying whatever adventure comes out this year (it'll be good for two years in standard), but otherwise, classic and gadgetzan packs.
That said, I think the value of arena has been very understated. Playing arena is way more enjoyable than constructed as a new player since you're on equal footing, and if you get even reasonable at it its as many or more packs per gold than just buying them. You get to play with all sorts of different cards that you don't own, too. I personally have never bought a pack with gold, I always do arena.
Aggro is too fast. Reno is great if you live to turn 6 and draw him. Too many games end by turn 4-5.
Any deck without reno has a hard time stabilizing because board control doesn't mean anything past turn 5. You either die to weapons or damage from hand at that point.
But yeah, aggro is good for the game.
This is probably the part that annoys me the most. Even if you "stabilize" and finally clear the board, you're ~20+ health behind and the opponent can afford to ignore whatever board you're building while they smash you in the face with an arcanite reaper, or finish you off with jade lightning or eviscerate.
Reno is the only thing that lets you extend a game far enough that aggro decks run out of steam, and then you need Kazakus to set up some kind of win condition against any other deck that's playing Reno.
The really frustrating part is aside from Finley, nothing is set to rotate out in the next 2 years, and he's not even a crucial component.
In a vacuum or another card game, yes, but Blizzard hasn't successfully had a season which was dominated by strong control/combo decks since maybe when Mind Control was 8 mana and I'd wager that was more due to the game being brand new at that point, and I don't even think that dominated.
Edit: And I don't even want to lump Combo decks in there, because Miracle Rogue has always survived and that kind of makes the viability of actual control decks invisible if we're always lumping Combo in with them.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Miracle Rogue was insanely dominant for the first couple of seasons. There have been times when control warrior and handlock posted incredibly strong finishes and were top ladder decks.
It's just the case that often players will gravitate toward the aggro decks because of the ladder structure. And interestingly, something I learned recently, people apparently REALLY like aggro decks smashing into each other. There's a strong segment of players out there that have no interest in 20+ minute games. They want games that end quickly.
And unless they print zero 1 or 2 drops for shaman/neutral, mid-range and aggro shaman will endure.
The opposite of this was the main criticism for most joust cards. It's a very hard balance to hit.
Only after you amass enough cards to start seeing duplicates is when the dust starts flowing.
Sure you can dust unwanted one-off cards but really you never now which cards you"re going to need at any given time.
This idea that Control decks by definition all have to go 20+ minutes is really silly. You can have Control decks which have fast games: they win by repeatedly clearing the board, drawing cards, exhausting their opponent of resources, and then winning via whatever win condition they have in their deck, usually large minions or a combo of some sort. If I have 7 cards, and you have 1 because the last three turns everything you've played died to my spells, then yea, I've pretty much won.
Seraph Control Combo from Shadowverse is a Control Combo deck. It's a Control deck with quasi-minions, a ton of draw, spell and minion-based minion removal, and board wipes. And it wins the game on Turn 9 if it can accelerate its win condition. But if it can't accelerate its win condition (and the opponent doesn't Odin), wins anyway on turn 10-12 because that's naturally how long it would take Seraph to countdown if it wasn't accelerated. If it can't control the board with its Amulets, it Wraths on turn 6, and then up to two more times if it can draw more Wraths.
Now, these aren't turn 4 victories, no, but they also aren't "I'm taking 10 points of fatigue damage next turn but still going to win" victories either.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
When you start the minimum dust value of a pack is 260, because that would be the cost of crafting 4 commons and a rare from scratch.
Also a new player should very quickly learn which one-offs they should dust, because 5 cards you never use is worse than 1 good card you use all the time.
It's Charge, except the minion can't hit face. So you use the minion exclusively to clear other minions.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Erm...you need dust to craft cards. Disenchanting 4 reg and 1 rare does not yield 260 dust
Yeah but Joust is a shit mechanic. It doesn't in any way interact with the board state, so it's the epitome of random. You have very little control over the requirement aside from your deck composition. There's no real synergy with anything and no way to set up any sort of strategy with a joust. It's just a coin flip, and nobody outside of ramp druid ever plays into it.
Yes but to create 4 commons and one rare you need 260 dust.
PSN: SoulCrusherJared
Nope, they're generally 20+ minutes because. Control. Players. Rope. Every. Freaking. Turn.
Seriously. If there were a perma-speed mode, I would play it. You don't need to rope turns 1 and 2. You just don't.
hee hee
But i see how you're looking at it. I was considering dust value of cards you don't want/need
Toast is really bad about this. Good god man, don't start talking about what you're going to do 10 seconds into your own turn
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
I think Blizzard has a problem with the Rogue class, and the problem is Gadgetzan Auctioneer. That card is the cornerstone of every Rogue deck. When you have a single card that so single-handedly define a class like that, it's unhealthy for the class and innovation. And it's not only that Gadgetzan Auctioneer is so strong, it's that Blizzard has built so many cards around it: the cheap spell that facilitates the miracle in Miracle Rogue. Counterfeit Coin, Backstab, Tomb Pillager, Preparation, Van Cleef, Questing Adventurer and plenty of others have their strengths defined by Gadgetzan Auctioneer. I like the interaction and I think it's fun, but those synergies are so synonymous with the class that a nerf or removal of Auctioneer (even though it is Standard) would ruin the class unless Blizzard had a whole suite of new Rogue mechanics in the pipeline ready to replace it immediately.
I only started watching his stream recently and already like 3 or 4 times I've seen him assume his opponent is going to rope every turn because he roped once, and get up and go to the bathroom after he takes his own turn. And then the opponent makes an immediate play and ends turn and it's a race to see if Toast finishes pissing before he ropes himself out.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Right now I just complete my daily quests and feel bored. Climbing ladder isn't engaging or rewarding anymore. Streaming quirky decks and interacting with people is great, but even that will be dulled when I'm facing the same decks over and over.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
I think Murlocs were, originally, interesting in that regard, where the Murloc buffers buffed all Murlocs.
Then they took that away.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
I hit Rank 5 on the 14th and I haven't felt any desire to play HS since then.
I know some people think this meta is the most healthy meta the game has had, but personally it feels really awful. Reno decks are fun to play, if not somewhat oppressive to play against (Reno and Kazakus are VERY strong, especially Brann+Kazakus). Pirate decks are just toxic for the game as a whole. Nothing wrong with Aggro decks but TTK has gone from Turn 7-ish to Turn 3/4. That's not okay.
I can try playing some of the more interesting decks (Burgle Rogue!) but they just get shit on by the hyper fast Pirate decks or lose to the overbearing control of Reno decks. This whole meta seems designed around Pirates beating the snot out of everything and everyone else trying to find ways to keep Pirates in check somehow.
This meta doesn't feel good to play in, at all. Which is a shame because I thought the general card quality/design of MSG was pretty good, but none of it matters when things are, yknow, like this.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I suppose the concern there is they'd feel keeping all the interactions straight would be too complex or confusing. After all, we were only recently entrusted with more than 9 deck slots.
I agree a million percent. I'll tell you, I was just playing a game as Shaman, and I queued into a Hunter. I immediately perked up and got excited. I was less excited when he played Cloaked Huntress and a bunch of secrets, and some other Secret Hunter garbage. I thought he was just a guy behind the times still trying to make Secret Hunter work. I proceeded to roll over him and bring him down to 2.
Then he plays Reno. Then a million deathrattle minions, then Princess Huhuran, then N'zoth. I was never happier to lose a game. This is the Hearthstone that I miss. That also shows you how stale this meta is, because it's not even a super original deck he pulled out of his ass on his own, but just seeing something other than Aggro and Reno Mage/Warlock makes me happy.
I feel like people are looking at the number of classes with viable decks and that is being misconstrued as an indication of a healthy meta. When most of those decks revolve around 1 archtype (pirate aggro) or 1-2 cards (reno/kazakus) that's not a great sign. Just because those two mechanics enable multiple classes to find a viable build doesn't mean your meta is healthy.
So basically more cards like hungry crab
PSN: SoulCrusherJared
Amusingly this is the deck type I convinced Dover to stream last night and he got his shit pushed in trying to make work. :biggrin:
Yeah but with interesting effects.
I can agree for the most part. Some cards do it right, but man Spirit Claws is so off. So is Tunnel Trogg and STB.
Jade Idol is a good example of a healthy end game space for a control deck, where once it has the upper hand, it wins pretty quickly.
I think Blizzard is actively trying to move from the Fatigue control strategies.
Hahahah oh really?! I was thinking about making it, should I not? Does it not work? I think I just had no idea what was coming, so I didn't know how to play around anything. The first inkling I had that it was an N'zoth deck was when he played Sylvanas. It's not like Highmane or Infested Wolf are dead giveaways for N'zoth. By the time he played Cairne I knew I was fucked but it was also too late.