MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited June 2015
Good.
I'm up to Guards Guards on my chronological read through of the series.
I think Pyramids is the first book that really engages you. The books before this I kind of read them because I wanted to. Pyramids I was eager to keep reading more even though I already have.
And GG is even more so.
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Mort and Wyrd Sisters are absolutely up there with the best of Pratchett's books, and they're the fourth and sixth. And I like the other early ones anyway. The ones I think that don't work are from much, much later.
Mort and Wyrd Sisters are absolutely up there with the best of Pratchett's books, and they're the fourth and sixth. And I like the other early ones anyway. The ones I think that don't work are from much, much later.
I like Equal Rites. I don't think he ever wrote a Granny Weatherwax-adjacent story that wasn't solid. (Too bad I can't say the same for Vimes thanks to Snuff.)
Mort and Wyrd Sisters are absolutely up there with the best of Pratchett's books, and they're the fourth and sixth. And I like the other early ones anyway. The ones I think that don't work are from much, much later.
I'm more talking about flow.
There's a flow to a pratchett book that grabs me and sweeps me along for the ride.
I don't feel that with the earlier books anymore. When I first read them, yeah, but later, not as much. Wyrd sisters is close, but only the bits with the witches are truly gripping for me.
Mort I honestly couldn't read again, because I'd read it again after years last year. I just, sort of, skipped most of it. Couldn't keep my attention this time. It's a good book though. They're all good books.
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Mego Thor"I say thee...NAY!"Registered Userregular
I'd still say to start at the beginning, with The Colour of Magic, and go in chronological order from there. It's true that most of the books are self contained, but doing it that way lets you see how Sir Pterry grew and matured as a writer, as well as seeing how the Discworld advanced technologically; something you don't see very often in a fantasy setting.
Also, the first two books still remain as some of my favorites.
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Mego Thor"I say thee...NAY!"Registered Userregular
Starting to get a little depressed thinking about it again.
I personally love how whenever Carrot is in the room Vetinari every so subtly checks out Carrots reaction to any large policy decision he is making. It's not exactly like asking for permission. But Vimes notices it every time.
Also the part in Fifth Elephant where he hands in his badge, Vetinari's reaction was great. He didn't see it coming. I get the feeling he genuinely can't read Carrot and it bothers him a bit.
All of this - excellent analysis! I'd never actually noticed the deference to Carrot's choices, although obviously I've noticed that he's the only person Vetinari is actually afraid of. I would have loved to read the book where power is handed to Carrot because that is clearly where the series was headed; but Veti didn't want Carrot to rule without Vimes, either.
ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I personally love how whenever Carrot is in the room Vetinari every so subtly checks out Carrots reaction to any large policy decision he is making. It's not exactly like asking for permission. But Vimes notices it every time.
Also the part in Fifth Elephant where he hands in his badge, Vetinari's reaction was great. He didn't see it coming. I get the feeling he genuinely can't read Carrot and it bothers him a bit.
All of this - excellent analysis! I'd never actually noticed the deference to Carrot's choices, although obviously I've noticed that he's the only person Vetinari is actually afraid of. I would have loved to read the book where power is handed to Carrot because that is clearly where the series was headed; but Veti didn't want Carrot to rule without Vimes, either.
I don't think so. I think both Vetinari and Carrot knew that while Carrot would be a great leader, the big problem is who comes next. The time of kings in Ankh-Morpork was over. What comes next, who could've said?
Also, I think Vetinari can't predict Carrot because he knows that everyone has a hidden agenda, and looks to that, whereas Carrot is actually that simple.
I personally love how whenever Carrot is in the room Vetinari every so subtly checks out Carrots reaction to any large policy decision he is making. It's not exactly like asking for permission. But Vimes notices it every time.
Also the part in Fifth Elephant where he hands in his badge, Vetinari's reaction was great. He didn't see it coming. I get the feeling he genuinely can't read Carrot and it bothers him a bit.
All of this - excellent analysis! I'd never actually noticed the deference to Carrot's choices, although obviously I've noticed that he's the only person Vetinari is actually afraid of. I would have loved to read the book where power is handed to Carrot because that is clearly where the series was headed; but Veti didn't want Carrot to rule without Vimes, either.
I don't think so. I think both Vetinari and Carrot knew that while Carrot would be a great leader, the big problem is who comes next. The time of kings in Ankh-Morpork was over. What comes next, who could've said?
Also, I think Vetinari can't predict Carrot because he knows that everyone has a hidden agenda, and looks to that, whereas Carrot is actually that simple.
“The old order changeth yielding place to new
And God fulfills himself in many ways
Lest one good custom should corrupt the world..."
The idea behind Carrot refusing power is that he knows power corrupts. He stops being a good person the moment he thinks he has a right to rule others. It's like it says in Men at Arms, a real King is someone who can put the sword into the stone - walk away from power - not take it out.
This is the reason why Vetinari is so successful as a leader. Because he doesn't exercise power. He didn't want a police force or an army. His role is simply to keep the balance of power in the city between each competing faction, so that no-one gets completely what they want. Like fencingsax said about Carrot above, his opponents can't figure out his agenda because he doesn't have one.
Vetinari is essentially an allegory for democracy and the rule of law. Ankh-Morpork is a squalid mismash of peoples, ideas and cultures, most of whom despise each other. It's corrupt in every sense. But it has to be that way, because we are corrupt.
Vetinari, like democracy, is despised by everyone (he has the nickname "dog-botherer") but ultimately recognized as essential. Carrot meanwhile represents the dream of a utopian system which we all think we want but are thankfully kept from having to experience the reality of.
The only reason for Vetinari to die and Carrot to become king would be if Pratchett wanted to tell a tragic allegorical tale about what happens when we abandon democracy for tyranny. And Carrot is too smart to become the protagonist of that narrative.
Also Carrot is, in his quiet way, way too fucking metal to let anyone make him be king.
Eg: The Fifth Elephant when oops there's a situation which he can't play off by pretending to be the big lumpkin naif and suddenly he's Mr Scary Person McSrsbsns
The idea behind Carrot refusing power is that he knows power corrupts. He stops being a good person the moment he thinks he has a right to rule others. It's like it says in Men at Arms, a real King is someone who can put the sword into the stone - walk away from power - not take it out.
This is the reason why Vetinari is so successful as a leader. Because he doesn't exercise power. He didn't want a police force or an army. His role is simply to keep the balance of power in the city between each competing faction, so that no-one gets completely what they want. Like fencingsax said about Carrot above, his opponents can't figure out his agenda because he doesn't have one.
Vetinari is essentially an allegory for democracy and the rule of law. Ankh-Morpork is a squalid mismash of peoples, ideas and cultures, most of whom despise each other. It's corrupt in every sense. But it has to be that way, because we are corrupt.
Vetinari, like democracy, is despised by everyone (he has the nickname "dog-botherer") but ultimately recognized as essential. Carrot meanwhile represents the dream of a utopian system which we all think we want but are thankfully kept from having to experience the reality of.
The only reason for Vetinari to die and Carrot to become king would be if Pratchett wanted to tell a tragic allegorical tale about what happens when we abandon democracy for tyranny. And Carrot is too smart to become the protagonist of that narrative.
Men at Arms direct plot spoiler.
Hence why Carrot picked up the Gonne, actually listened to what it had to say, and then immediately smashed it.
Also Carrot is, in his quiet way, way too fucking metal to let anyone make him be king.
Eg: The Fifth Elephant when oops there's a situation which he can't play off by pretending to be the big lumpkin naif and suddenly he's Mr Scary Person McSrsbsns
Well the thing is he isn't actually pretending. He really is that simple. Which means when the situation turns to the point where the simple solution is to be Mr Scary McSrsbsns he does so. There's no duplicity in Carrots character. He is what he is.
If vetinari ever asked him about ruling the city he would simply refuse, because he likes his current job better. And he would mean every word.
Carrot is basically a really good deconstruction of the "ideal" fantasy King candidate. Brave, noble, intelligent, honest, straightforward. What would happen if someone with all of those qualities actually appeared in a city that would be worse off with a King?
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I always thought there was a sort of buildup for Vetinari to hand the reins of the city over to Moist von Lipwig. The fact that Lipwig succeeds under pressure while simultaneously being absolutely terrified of actually having power makes him a better ruler than someone who would actually want the position.
But, of course, Lipwig is at his best when he doesn't have a plan, and that's probably the worst possible way to run a city-state.
GNU Terry Pratchett
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Every book, Lipwig gets handed power over something else. First the post office, then the bank, then the railway... By the end of the series, he might just have ended up in charge of the entire city, bit by bit.
Every book, Lipwig gets handed power over something else. First the post office, then the bank, then the railway... By the end of the series, he might just have ended up in charge of the entire city, bit by bit.
Every book, Lipwig gets handed power over something else. First the post office, then the bank, then the railway... By the end of the series, he might just have ended up in charge of the entire city, bit by bit.
Every book, Lipwig gets handed power over something else. First the post office, then the bank, then the railway... By the end of the series, he might just have ended up in charge of the entire city, bit by bit.
Adora Belle for next Patrician.
...huh. They even look somewhat similar, come to think of it.
I was kind of expecting an Ankh Morpork politics book to have some well meaning but stupid group abduct Vetinari and force vampire on him so that he could rule forever which ends with Vetinari stepping aside as the Patrician for life ends due to him being living impaired. As for who gets to be in charge, I figure that the political groups left in charge after Verinari would be a mix of everyone having just enough power to get things done while not having enough to tell other people how things should get done. A system of mutually assured disruption.
Sigh. You know, I respect Brianna's decision and it's well within her right to make it, but I do wish they actually conceived of doing an ending story to wrap things up. "BLANK becomes next Patrician" would be a pretty logical stopping point, and practically all the main characters would be viable nominees. Rincewind could just stumble into the job, for example.
You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
Sigh. You know, I respect Brianna's decision and it's well within her right to make it, but I do wish they actually conceived of doing an ending story to wrap things up. "BLANK becomes next Patrician" would be a pretty logical stopping point, and practically all the main characters would be viable nominees. Rincewind could just stumble into the job, for example.
I would respect them just releasing whatever notes Sir Terry leaves behind in raw format, maybe with some notes by Rhianna to clarify if needed.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited June 2015
I'm okay with it having no neat ending, personally.
It's almost completely against Terry's philosophy for there to be nice neat endings in life. Most of his books are kinda messy but work out good enough from the main characters point of view.
I'd basically view it as a bit disrespectful to be honest.
Notes would be a bit different, but having read his short story about how he writes a book I don't think we'd glean much from it.
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Mego Thor"I say thee...NAY!"Registered Userregular
I was kind of expecting an Ankh Morpork politics book to have some well meaning but stupid group abduct Vetinari and force vampire on him so that he could rule forever which ends with Vetinari stepping aside as the Patrician for life ends due to him being living impaired. As for who gets to be in charge, I figure that the political groups left in charge after Verinari would be a mix of everyone having just enough power to get things done while not having enough to tell other people how things should get done. A system of mutually assured disruption.
And then they all have some rat kebobs.
Oy, did someone say "kebobs?"
Step right up, folks, step right up! At these prices, I'm cutting me own throat!
I don't think I've ever really viewed the books as a series that needed an ending. The Discworld story isn't something with a beginning, middle and end. It rolls on forever. The Lipwig books have the Patrician's Undertaking as the backbone, but I'm not sure Pratchett was ever going to tie a bow on it and say 'and they lived happily ever after'.
I was kind of expecting an Ankh Morpork politics book to have some well meaning but stupid group abduct Vetinari and force vampire on him so that he could rule forever which ends with Vetinari stepping aside as the Patrician for life ends due to him being living impaired. As for who gets to be in charge, I figure that the political groups left in charge after Verinari would be a mix of everyone having just enough power to get things done while not having enough to tell other people how things should get done. A system of mutually assured disruption.
And then they all have some rat kebobs.
Oy, did someone say "kebobs?"
Step right up, folks, step right up! At these prices, I'm cutting me own throat!
I was kind of expecting an Ankh Morpork politics book to have some well meaning but stupid group abduct Vetinari and force vampire on him so that he could rule forever which ends with Vetinari stepping aside as the Patrician for life ends due to him being living impaired. As for who gets to be in charge, I figure that the political groups left in charge after Verinari would be a mix of everyone having just enough power to get things done while not having enough to tell other people how things should get done. A system of mutually assured disruption.
And then they all have some rat kebobs.
Oy, did someone say "kebobs?"
Step right up, folks, step right up! At these prices, I'm cutting me own throat!
Rincewind was right.
An equivalent of Dibbler exists everywhere.
I really like seeing all the CMOT Dibbler clones out there.
Also, Cut MegOThor Dibbler, yes?
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Mego Thor"I say thee...NAY!"Registered Userregular
Look, is somebody gonna buy a rat-onna-stick, or what?
If you don't want kebobs, I've got some nice sausage-inna-bun.
Posts
I'm up to Guards Guards on my chronological read through of the series.
I think Pyramids is the first book that really engages you. The books before this I kind of read them because I wanted to. Pyramids I was eager to keep reading more even though I already have.
And GG is even more so.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I like Equal Rites. I don't think he ever wrote a Granny Weatherwax-adjacent story that wasn't solid. (Too bad I can't say the same for Vimes thanks to Snuff.)
Leaning towards reading Small Gods first.
I'm more talking about flow.
There's a flow to a pratchett book that grabs me and sweeps me along for the ride.
I don't feel that with the earlier books anymore. When I first read them, yeah, but later, not as much. Wyrd sisters is close, but only the bits with the witches are truly gripping for me.
Mort I honestly couldn't read again, because I'd read it again after years last year. I just, sort of, skipped most of it. Couldn't keep my attention this time. It's a good book though. They're all good books.
The Colour of Magic, and go in chronological order from there. It's true that most of the books are self contained, but doing it that way lets you see how Sir Pterry grew and matured as a writer, as well as seeing how the Discworld advanced technologically; something you don't see very often in a fantasy setting.
Also, the first two books still remain as some of my favorites.
All of this - excellent analysis! I'd never actually noticed the deference to Carrot's choices, although obviously I've noticed that he's the only person Vetinari is actually afraid of. I would have loved to read the book where power is handed to Carrot because that is clearly where the series was headed; but Veti didn't want Carrot to rule without Vimes, either.
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I don't think so. I think both Vetinari and Carrot knew that while Carrot would be a great leader, the big problem is who comes next. The time of kings in Ankh-Morpork was over. What comes next, who could've said?
Also, I think Vetinari can't predict Carrot because he knows that everyone has a hidden agenda, and looks to that, whereas Carrot is actually that simple.
“The old order changeth yielding place to new
And God fulfills himself in many ways
Lest one good custom should corrupt the world..."
This is the reason why Vetinari is so successful as a leader. Because he doesn't exercise power. He didn't want a police force or an army. His role is simply to keep the balance of power in the city between each competing faction, so that no-one gets completely what they want. Like fencingsax said about Carrot above, his opponents can't figure out his agenda because he doesn't have one.
Vetinari is essentially an allegory for democracy and the rule of law. Ankh-Morpork is a squalid mismash of peoples, ideas and cultures, most of whom despise each other. It's corrupt in every sense. But it has to be that way, because we are corrupt.
Vetinari, like democracy, is despised by everyone (he has the nickname "dog-botherer") but ultimately recognized as essential. Carrot meanwhile represents the dream of a utopian system which we all think we want but are thankfully kept from having to experience the reality of.
The only reason for Vetinari to die and Carrot to become king would be if Pratchett wanted to tell a tragic allegorical tale about what happens when we abandon democracy for tyranny. And Carrot is too smart to become the protagonist of that narrative.
Eg: The Fifth Elephant when oops there's a situation which he can't play off by pretending to be the big lumpkin naif and suddenly he's Mr Scary Person McSrsbsns
I'd say it's more likely he's scared of Carrot.
Why I fear the ocean.
Men at Arms direct plot spoiler.
Well the thing is he isn't actually pretending. He really is that simple. Which means when the situation turns to the point where the simple solution is to be Mr Scary McSrsbsns he does so. There's no duplicity in Carrots character. He is what he is.
If vetinari ever asked him about ruling the city he would simply refuse, because he likes his current job better. And he would mean every word.
Carrot is basically a really good deconstruction of the "ideal" fantasy King candidate. Brave, noble, intelligent, honest, straightforward. What would happen if someone with all of those qualities actually appeared in a city that would be worse off with a King?
Vimes'll go SPARE!
But, of course, Lipwig is at his best when he doesn't have a plan, and that's probably the worst possible way to run a city-state.
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General Lipwig...
That's Cecil Wormsborough St. John Nobbs, The Earl of Ankh to you peasant!
Adora Belle for next Patrician.
...huh. They even look somewhat similar, come to think of it.
And then they all have some rat kebobs.
I would respect them just releasing whatever notes Sir Terry leaves behind in raw format, maybe with some notes by Rhianna to clarify if needed.
It's almost completely against Terry's philosophy for there to be nice neat endings in life. Most of his books are kinda messy but work out good enough from the main characters point of view.
I'd basically view it as a bit disrespectful to be honest.
Notes would be a bit different, but having read his short story about how he writes a book I don't think we'd glean much from it.
Oy, did someone say "kebobs?"
Step right up, folks, step right up! At these prices, I'm cutting me own throat!
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Rincewind was right.
An equivalent of Dibbler exists everywhere.
Also, Cut MegO Thor Dibbler, yes?
If you don't want kebobs, I've got some nice sausage-inna-bun.
Meat from a named barnyard animal.
Or possibly an animal that might be found in or near a barnyard.
Some of these sausages were formerly quite urbane. Very posh. Those cost extra!