Because if no one clicks "Queue as tank" no one gets the bag anyway.
This solves nothing but adds more incentives for everyone to run more dungeouns. This is not a solution, this is people getting more for doing what they already do.
The only possible solution I see is going back to WotLK design, where the heroics are 15-minute AoE fests where either you're not required by design to account for mechanics (e.g., Moorabi), or you can just ignore mechanics and plow a boss down in under 30 seconds, because at least in WotLK, the queues for DPS were somewhat reasonable. But of course, a bunch of people would cry about heroics being "too easy" if they did this (far more than are doing it now, since no matter what you think, 4.1 Cata heroics are still well beyond WotLK heroics in difficulty).
That and it would be a huge time investment to redesign/shorten Cata heroics this much now, in addition to the fact that they'd have to revert the changes to tank AoE abilities that they consciously made for Cata.
Sadly that is the quickest and easiest method....
Here is a solution from my end... Stop nerfing abilites because of PVP QQing. Just separate the two already. With WoWs implementation of PVP they almost HAVE to exist separately in order to properly tune. Separate the two and tune up dps PVE, get rid of DR on stuns for PVE, increase duration on CC for PVE..
Machanics would still be in place for bosses just tune down the trash and tune up Player PVE abilites.
On top of that, where's the incentive for tanks with the current incoming change?
"Oh I'm not Call to Arms? Fuck that, I ain't tankin, I'll wait for it to come back to me."
40 minutes of DPS Queues later...Tank call to arms!
"Alright then"
Oh look now nothing has changed AND they get paid for being assholes!
Hooray progress!
Let's be honest, its always going to be tanks.
I just don't like the idea of handing 4 specs free shit because Blizzard can't figure out a better way to get tanks queuing.
Not to mention the massive increase in bad tanks, and off-spec tanks popping in as Ret, Feral cat, etc. and asking the other tank-capable class to do it for them just so they can get their bag AND their instant queue.
The only way the problem will be fixed is if they take the hard solution and figure out what it is about the tank role that people don't like that's making them not want to play it and how to fix it so it's more appealing to a greater number of players. It's not a quick solution and it will take a lot of effort to do but you aren't going to solve anything with band aid measures like this call to arms system that fail to address the underlying problems with the class role as a whole.
My guild isn't big enough to hit the xp cap every day, this isnt fair.
Okay, how about extra rewards for stuff you'd do anyways...we'll call them challenges?
THIS IS STUPID.
Well, except the challenges do far more for larger guilds than small guilds, which doesn't really solve anything since larger guilds don't have any problem with guild leveling in the first place. Also, people were hoping guild challenges would be something interesting, not just "here's more arbitrary guild XP/gold if your guild happens to be doing these 3 types of activities." If they just wanted guilds to get more XP, they could have upped the XP rewards from everything by 25% and then increased the cap to 8 million or so. Boom, same net effect, hundreds of development man-hours saved.
Also, people have been wanting other avenues of play to provide guild XP (primarily PvP/battlegrounds), which they've done nothing to address, except, bogglingly, for sub-85 characters.
forty on
0
Options
Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
The OPTION to get what, exactly? I'm pretty sure you can go farm Stratholme or heroic Sethekk, or farm herbs for flasks, or whatever, to get these same rewards. I don't think they're offering anything exclusive from Call to Arms.
The best part is you could probably do all of these things during the duration of one dps queue.
And more easily.
Lets see I want Reigns of the Raven Lord: I can A) Go to sethekk halls and do it in 15 minutes for a not too terrible drop chance, or I can que for an instance and spend an hour burning through there for a stupidly small chance of getting any mount let alone the one I want.
TOUGH CHOICES
TANK: I can get this bag that gives me a chance to get any of ALL THESE mounts while simultaneously earning JP, VP, Rep etc. And I can do it as many times a day as I like, plus I get instant queues and full control over the groups!
DPS: I can run sethekk halls! Once a day! Yay.
^ this right here. Nevermind the stupid trek to Auchindoun every day thanks to the removal of Shattrath portals.
The only way the problem will be fixed is if they take the hard solution and figure out what it is about the tank role that people don't like that's making them not want to play it and how to fix it so it's more appealing to a greater number of players. It's not a quick solution and it will take a lot of effort to do but you aren't going to solve anything with band aid measures like this call to arms system that fail to address the underlying problems with the class role as a whole.
Melee is still a nice thing to have on the majority of the fights these days and you still have your couple melee friendly fights. Double Dragons, Maloriak, Neffy, Chewie, Magmaw...
Melee friendly isn't the same thing as melee preferred, though. I'd say the only fights that are melee preferred would be Double Dragons and Nefarian. I don't know why you even listed Cho'gall. Too much melee is a liability on that fight -- the more ranged, the better.
And, no, the majority of fights could be done just as well, if not better, with no melee. The same never applies to no ranged.
Goes back to the bring the player not the class. Even in 10 mans we do this and we have progressed fine. We typically have 2 +/- melee on our regular raiders. Also, it may be old school of me but as raid tank I just plain prefer melee dps on the interrupt fights.
I listed ChoGall because all melee does is stand there and dps the whole time. If you have the AOE melee dps on that fight would almost be preferred over ranged to help with interrupting of the MC faster.
Here is a solution from my end... Stop nerfing abilites because of PVP QQing. Just separate the two already. With WoWs implementation of PVP they almost HAVE to exist separately in order to properly tune. Separate the two and tune up dps PVE, get rid of DR on stuns for PVE, increase duration on CC for PVE..
Machanics would still be in place for bosses just tune down the trash and tune up Player PVE abilites.
CC works perfectly fine in heroics now when people use it properly. Or at all.
TANK: I can get this bag that gives me a chance to get any of ALL THESE mounts while simultaneously earning JP, VP, Rep etc. And I can do it as many times a day as I like, plus I get instant queues and full control over the groups!
DPS: I can run sethekk halls! Once a day! Yay.
It looks like it isn't just the tanks with entitlement issues...
You don't even know what the drop rate of the CtA mounts is yet, but clearly it's going to be an awesome way to get every mount under the sun.
Here is a solution from my end... Stop nerfing abilites because of PVP QQing. Just separate the two already. With WoWs implementation of PVP they almost HAVE to exist separately in order to properly tune. Separate the two and tune up dps PVE, get rid of DR on stuns for PVE, increase duration on CC for PVE..
Machanics would still be in place for bosses just tune down the trash and tune up Player PVE abilites.
CC works perfectly fine in heroics now when people use it properly. Or at all.
I know . Just ridding of variables in my post. I still run into dps that dont reCC at times.
So maybe I'm just reading this the wrong way, but where exactly does it tell you that there is a call to arms? Do you need to be in the queue already in order to see this? If so then all that means is I'll be queuing as a DPS and waiting for CtA tank. Because if I queue as a tank then I'm already put in a group within 1 min tops. What's my incentive to blindly queue as a tank instead of a DPS?
The fact that I'm not eligible for this if I'm currently in a group kinda blows though. But I still don't see myself running more than 1 heroic per day until they change the cap style for VPs, and even then I'm roughly 1000 VPs away from not needing them anymore so this change really won't do anything for me.
For the non raiders I still wish they would implement a form of Skirmishes (LOTRO) into WoW. Have them starting at a certain lvl and tier up. At 85 have a Heroic Skirmish that is 1,2,3 players and lets people grind up to gear that is in between current heroic and raiding gear.
TANK: I can get this bag that gives me a chance to get any of ALL THESE mounts while simultaneously earning JP, VP, Rep etc. And I can do it as many times a day as I like, plus I get instant queues and full control over the groups!
DPS: I can run sethekk halls! Once a day! Yay.
It looks like it isn't just the tanks with entitlement issues...
You don't even know what the drop rate of the CtA mounts is yet, but clearly it's going to be an awesome way to get every mount under the sun.
I would expect they would be the same low drop rate. But the point is:
As many chances as you can run heroics > 1 per day max.
Are they fucking kidding with this new system? Tanks and healers get instant queues and free items, pets and mounts.
Sounds totally fair.
Tanks or healers, since at any given time, only the lowest representation will get the call to arms bonus. Also, are DPS enjoying the 40-minute queues? Would they prefer nothing be done about it?
Also, I'm not really sure how other players getting non-combat pets and on rare occasions, mounts, hurts you.
It's not that others get them. It's that we will never, ever even have the OPTION to get them.
To put it another way - DPS get screwed either way. It's a "pick your poison" type of thing. That's not a good solution.
The OPTION to get what, exactly? I'm pretty sure you can go farm Stratholme or heroic Sethekk, or farm herbs for flasks, or whatever, to get these same rewards. I don't think they're offering anything exclusive from Call to Arms.
As many chances as you can run heroics > 1 per day max.
Maybe.
Heroics aren't instant. They take a lot of time and effort. More effort than a normal sethekk halls run. So your argument only holds true if you have an equal chance of getting the reigns for a given bag as you do from killing anzu, which I doubt will be true.
I suspect it would take 4-5 runs to equal the same daily chance, which by that point you're putting in so much more effort I don't see what there is the complain about.
As many chances as you can run heroics > 1 per day max.
Maybe.
Heroics aren't instant. They take a lot of time and effort. More effort than a normal sethekk halls run. So your argument only holds true if you have an equal chance of getting the reigns for a given bag as you do from killing anzu, which I doubt will be true.
I suspect it would take 4-5 runs to equal the same daily chance, which by that point you're putting in so much more effort I don't see what there is the complain about.
Except that the tank isn't prevented from running sethekk and then also as many heroics as he likes as well. The DPS has no way to have multiple chances to get the mount each day, the tank does.
nm i see where they're going with the message. SO basically I just wait with my LFG box up until I see "you get free stuff" and then I'll queue as a tank.
I'll just wait around for my bag of gold and chance at a mount/pet I don't care about now that I already have my dragonhawk. Still not running more than 1 per day until they change the VP cap.
Melee is still a nice thing to have on the majority of the fights these days and you still have your couple melee friendly fights. Double Dragons, Maloriak, Neffy, Chewie, Magmaw...
Melee friendly isn't the same thing as melee preferred, though. I'd say the only fights that are melee preferred would be Double Dragons and Nefarian. I don't know why you even listed Cho'gall. Too much melee is a liability on that fight -- the more ranged, the better.
And, no, the majority of fights could be done just as well, if not better, with no melee. The same never applies to no ranged.
Goes back to the bring the player not the class. Even in 10 mans we do this and we have progressed fine. We typically have 2 +/- melee on our regular raiders. Also, it may be old school of me but as raid tank I just plain prefer melee dps on the interrupt fights.
Eh? The point is that you can actually progress better if the same players happen to be playing more ranged specs than melee specs. Shamans are the best single interrupters, and they don't have to be enhancement speced to do so. Melee are actually shitty interrupters for things like Maloriak's green phase, or Arcanotron when his shield is up.
I listed ChoGall because all melee does is stand there and dps the whole time. If you have the AOE melee dps on that fight would almost be preferred over ranged to help with interrupting of the MC faster.
The only thing that allows melee to stand there and DPS the whole time (side note: if they're just standing and DPSing Cho'gall when the tentacles pop, you've got a problem) is the presence of a significant number of ranged. That is not a melee advantage at all. In fact, if you have too many melee, Cho'gall becomes a far more difficult fight. Extra ranged cost you nothing and give you far more flexibility. Melee aren't any better at interrupting the MC than ranged on that fight; it's more of a class/spec thing, but ranged specs actually have more ways to be able to stop a channeling at range or AoE-interrupt multiple channelings (psychic scream, dragon's breath).
For the non raiders I still wish they would implement a form of Skirmishes (LOTRO) into WoW. Have them starting at a certain lvl and tier up. At 85 have a Heroic Skirmish that is 1,2,3 players and lets people grind up to gear that is in between current heroic and raiding gear.
For the benefit of those of us who've never played LotRO, what's a skirmish?
As many chances as you can run heroics > 1 per day max.
Maybe.
Heroics aren't instant. They take a lot of time and effort. More effort than a normal sethekk halls run. So your argument only holds true if you have an equal chance of getting the reigns for a given bag as you do from killing anzu, which I doubt will be true.
I suspect it would take 4-5 runs to equal the same daily chance, which by that point you're putting in so much more effort I don't see what there is the complain about.
None of this invalidates that X+1 > 1.
Well neither can you.
Yeah but I don't get paid to do this kind of thing.
I'm surprised no one has tried justifying it by claiming "But tanks are screwed because they can't do anything while waiting for queues! DPS get the advantage of having 40 minutes to do whatever whereas poor tanks have no time at all!"
TANK: I can get this bag that gives me a chance to get any of ALL THESE mounts while simultaneously earning JP, VP, Rep etc. And I can do it as many times a day as I like, plus I get instant queues and full control over the groups!
DPS: I can run sethekk halls! Once a day! Yay.
It looks like it isn't just the tanks with entitlement issues...
You don't even know what the drop rate of the CtA mounts is yet, but clearly it's going to be an awesome way to get every mount under the sun.
I would expect they would be the same low drop rate. But the point is:
As many chances as you can run heroics > 1 per day max.
Except that the tank isn't prevented from running sethekk and then also as many heroics as he likes as well. The DPS has no way to have multiple chances to get the mount each day, the tank does.
Shouldn't it also bother you then that some classes/specs can solo heroic Skadi for a chance at the proto drake while others cannot? I'd also guess that some of the other mounts are not soloable (yet, at least) by some classes.
For the non raiders I still wish they would implement a form of Skirmishes (LOTRO) into WoW. Have them starting at a certain lvl and tier up. At 85 have a Heroic Skirmish that is 1,2,3 players and lets people grind up to gear that is in between current heroic and raiding gear.
For the benefit of those of us who've never played LotRO, what's a skirmish?
Mini instances where you take a friendly NPC with you to complete it. That would be the most basic summary. In LOTRO you pick a friendly NPC to take with you (Healer/DPS/Tank) and he/she levels up with you as you do skirmishes. You can then equip the npc with abilites/spells/gear that you grind out while doing skirmishes.
In the end it would put into place instances where you can solo,duo,small group and bring NPC with you to complete the instance on a difficulty scale. More players=More difficulty. Higher Difficulty = More points to spend on gear/NPC stuff.
As many chances as you can run heroics > 1 per day max.
Maybe.
Heroics aren't instant. They take a lot of time and effort. More effort than a normal sethekk halls run. So your argument only holds true if you have an equal chance of getting the reigns for a given bag as you do from killing anzu, which I doubt will be true.
I suspect it would take 4-5 runs to equal the same daily chance, which by that point you're putting in so much more effort I don't see what there is the complain about.
Except that the tank isn't prevented from running sethekk and then also as many heroics as he likes as well. The DPS has no way to have multiple chances to get the mount each day, the tank does.
At the end of the day is the DPS queue shorter? Does this mean on my DPS character I don't have to wait between 30 and 40+ minutes at times and instead I only wait 10? If yes, who cares if the tank or healer has a <1% chance at a random mount/pet
Thus far I've read people whining because it's not fair that these people get a bag with <1% Chance at stuff that doesn't matter and who knows how much gold (more than likely 13..seems to be their fav number)
I've seen no suggestions on how to make tanking/healing less of a chore...as a tank you are required to have each and every pull memorized, know what to CC and what boss mechanics are. as a healer you are required to keep everyone alive. If the tank or healers don't do this everyone bitches and everyone notices. DPS are required to show up. All you need to do is CC the mob that's marked with a predetermined symbol, not stand in fire, and interrupt anything you can. Which the majority of the time they fail to do 2 or more of these activities.
Is the bag of goodies a bandaid.. sure... once it's no longer good enough to ensure queues I'm sure something else will be done. Until then I'll take my bag when I tank... and thank god I'm not sitting around with a thumb up my ass waiting for my DPS que to finish.
I just don't like the idea of handing 4 specs free shit because Blizzard can't figure out a better way to get tanks queuing.
Well neither can you.
You're getting dangerously close to the good old "you can't say this movie/book/show/game/etc. sucks because you haven't made a better one!" argument.
Eh, the point its easy to criticize.
The only real alternatives anyone is proposing are changes on the level of expansion stuff, and obviously that's not going to work.
The DPS are bitching like they're not getting anything here. Is the tiny chance a tank might get a mount that everyone already has access to such a high price to pay for shorter a queue? Blizzard isn't taking a god damn thing away from anyone, they're just giving people a reason to play tanks.
Yes but they still have a greater than 1 chance.
Even it's "not a big deal", it's still a 1 + X chance of getting the mount. Even if that means it goes from .02 to .06, that's still a higher chance.
And considering I will always have a .02% chance on my Mage and you can run heroics all day for it, it can go from "Not a big deal" to "completely unfair".
But then again, Blizzard gave other races more mounts because it was slightly harder but still doable to get the 100 mounts achievement done.
And no I don't mean how Tauren and Draenei had to bust their asses. Making all horde/alliance mounts work for all horde/alliance was a good idea.
I mean adding one extra mount to vendors to "even the score", so to speak. Something tells me the mount and pet will slowly shift out of the bag, or be something you could have just bought anyway (Awesome a mount! Oh, Swift Brown Wolf.)
Melee is still a nice thing to have on the majority of the fights these days and you still have your couple melee friendly fights. Double Dragons, Maloriak, Neffy, Chewie, Magmaw...
Melee friendly isn't the same thing as melee preferred, though. I'd say the only fights that are melee preferred would be Double Dragons and Nefarian. I don't know why you even listed Cho'gall. Too much melee is a liability on that fight -- the more ranged, the better.
And, no, the majority of fights could be done just as well, if not better, with no melee. The same never applies to no ranged.
Goes back to the bring the player not the class. Even in 10 mans we do this and we have progressed fine. We typically have 2 +/- melee on our regular raiders. Also, it may be old school of me but as raid tank I just plain prefer melee dps on the interrupt fights.
Eh? The point is that you can actually progress better if the same players happen to be playing more ranged specs than melee specs. Shamans are the best single interrupters, and they don't have to be enhancement speced to do so. Melee are actually shitty interrupters for things like Maloriak's green phase, or Arcanotron when his shield is up.
I listed ChoGall because all melee does is stand there and dps the whole time. If you have the AOE melee dps on that fight would almost be preferred over ranged to help with interrupting of the MC faster.
The only thing that allows melee to stand there and DPS the whole time (side note: if they're just standing and DPSing Cho'gall when the tentacles pop, you've got a problem) is the presence of a significant number of ranged. That is not a melee advantage at all. In fact, if you have too many melee, Cho'gall becomes a far more difficult fight. Extra ranged cost you nothing and give you far more flexibility. Melee aren't any better at interrupting the MC than ranged on that fight; it's more of a class/spec thing, but ranged specs actually have more ways to be able to stop a channeling at range or AoE-interrupt multiple channelings (psychic scream, dragon's breath).
I dont want to start a big ol argument. I am well aware of, and actually stated in my reponse, that you need the AOE on chewie. I was stating my opinion. On Maloriak, Tron, and other fights that require interrupts or multiple interupts I just plainly prefer melee dps to do it. My preference. We typically have a DK or two and/or Enhance Shaman.
PS I love interrupting the MC the Melee DPS with my shockwave. Quick and easy.
For the non raiders I still wish they would implement a form of Skirmishes (LOTRO) into WoW. Have them starting at a certain lvl and tier up. At 85 have a Heroic Skirmish that is 1,2,3 players and lets people grind up to gear that is in between current heroic and raiding gear.
For the benefit of those of us who've never played LotRO, what's a skirmish?
Mini instances where you take a friendly NPC with you to complete it. That would be the most basic summary. In LOTRO you pick a friendly NPC to take with you (Healer/DPS/Tank) and he/she levels up with you as you do skirmishes. You can then equip the npc with abilites/spells/gear that you grind out while doing skirmishes.
In the end it would put into place instances where you can solo,duo,small group and bring NPC with you to complete the instance on a difficulty scale. More players=More difficulty. Higher Difficulty = More points to spend on gear/NPC stuff.
That actually sounds pretty neat. I'd love to see that as another option in WoW.
A couple other questions. What sort of time investment was involved in clearing a skirmish? And since you were dealing with an AI controlled partner, how did that work out? Were there typical "retard AI" issues? How much control did you have over his actions?
I had a long post for this but im not going to bother and im sure what im going to say is going to call the few elite here to cry foul, but there really is a simple solution. Well its 2, but 1 cannot possibly be done as its too late.
1 - NERF the heroics so that its a lot more accessible to EVERYONE. You ask someone now if they want to tank a random, chances are you will get a GTFO. Hell you got that in here with people doing mainly guild runs.
2 - Shorten them. Whether it be length or HP's of mobs. Max instance length should be 25, max 30 if you wipe. Nothing more, maybe less.
You want new tanks.. you got new tanks. I think Cat was a huge mis-step from WOTLK. WOTLK was a heck of a lot more accessible to everyone, plus you had more options out of the gate. You had Naxx which was a glorified, long ass Heroic. But you could do it immediately, and with all the gear you were getting you could gear up a second spec quite quickly. It wasnt as easy now as dual spec but man, people were a lot more willing to go spend money to spec change and tank than now. Its not worth the headache.
For the non raiders I still wish they would implement a form of Skirmishes (LOTRO) into WoW. Have them starting at a certain lvl and tier up. At 85 have a Heroic Skirmish that is 1,2,3 players and lets people grind up to gear that is in between current heroic and raiding gear.
For the benefit of those of us who've never played LotRO, what's a skirmish?
Mini instances where you take a friendly NPC with you to complete it. That would be the most basic summary. In LOTRO you pick a friendly NPC to take with you (Healer/DPS/Tank) and he/she levels up with you as you do skirmishes. You can then equip the npc with abilites/spells/gear that you grind out while doing skirmishes.
In the end it would put into place instances where you can solo,duo,small group and bring NPC with you to complete the instance on a difficulty scale. More players=More difficulty. Higher Difficulty = More points to spend on gear/NPC stuff.
That actually sounds pretty neat. I'd love to see that as another option in WoW.
A couple other questions. What sort of time investment was involved in clearing a skirmish? And since you were dealing with an AI controlled partner, how did that work out? Were there typical "retard AI" issues? How much control did you have over his actions?
It has been awhile. But when I was doing Skirmishes I was on a tank class so I chose a healer. The healer seemed to use the abilities very well and I had the common pet commands. Defend this, go here, stay put... etc. The NPC would use the abilities I gave it. So if I wanted a healer that had a offensive spell and hots I could just give those abilites to the NPC. Think Hunter Pet but with a little more AI on it. The typical skirmish had a CD on Queue and took around 15-30min to complete if I remember correctly and dropped items and points. The items were basically shards that were used as currency for gear for yourself and the NPC and points needed for assigning,upgrading,buying of the abilites for the NPC.
This wouldnt need to be the implementation that WoW would use of course but something along the same lines where you grind out gear or the like. I loved the skirmishes in LOTRO.
Jubal77 on
0
Options
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
The solution is to bring back the Wrath model for tanking/healing. That -is-the only viable solution. The problem is simply that there aren’t enough tanks, not so much that the existing tanks aren’t queuing (although that is also happening). The queues were 10-15 minutes at most in Wrath. Why? Because more people were tanking and healing, it’s as simple as that. Why were there more tanks/heals? Because tanking and healing were more accessible (read: easier) and as such more people were willing to take on those roles, and in many cases they enjoyed them. The changes 4.0/Cataclysm brought alienated a huge number of tanks and healers, and so we find ourselves in the situation we see today. Making tanking/healing more accessible is the only thing that will change this situation for the better. “No way, easy mode is boring, I want challenge. If they go back to that I’m done”. Fair enough, that’s your opinion and you’re certainly welcome to it, but that doesn’t change the facts. People very obviously want that accessibility back. Not all people, naturally, but a lot of them. That’s why in my guild and your guild and every other guild, people are slowly but surely logging in less and less often, and then eventually not logging in at all. The sense of ‘laid-back, just log on and get stuff done’ is gone in Cataclysm because the developers wanted to move away from the Wrath mentality. That gamble doesn't appear to be paying off. This new stopgap solution will likely be as successful as the last (lotd buff).
I dont want to start a big ol argument. I am well aware of, and actually stated in my reponse, that you need the AOE on chewie. I was stating my opinion. On Maloriak, Tron, and other fights that require interrupts or multiple interupts I just plainly prefer melee dps to do it. My preference. We typically have a DK or two and/or Enhance Shaman.
PS I love interrupting the MC the Melee DPS with my shockwave. Quick and easy.
Right, but you only have that AoE if you have a decent chunk of ranged DPS. If you have only two ranged for 10-man Cho'gall, your raid is going to have a tougher time killing him than one with three or four (or five!) ranged.
Hunters are literally the only ranged class that can't stand on a melee pile and function as melee as far as things like "everyone needs to stack up for easier interrupting of MC" goes. If your ranged are standing back on Cho'gall when they're not taking care of an add/bloods, that's a tactical issue, not melee/ranged mechanics one.
It's fine if you prefer the melee you play with to be interrupting. I'm just saying there's no interrupt situation in Cata where a melee couldn't be replaced with a competent/hit capped (until 4.1) shaman.
Considering this spawned from a discussion of Kara/TBC unfriendly toward melee, I think it's worth noting that once the 360-cleave type issues in Kara were fixed, it was actually less punishing to have extra melee in Kara than it's been in Cata. Overall Kara had far fewer "ranged are the only (or only reasonable) way to handle X" mechanics/enemies than T11.
The solution is to bring back the Wrath model for tanking/healing. That -is-the only viable solution. The problem is simply that there aren’t enough tanks, not so much that the existing tanks aren’t queuing (although that is also happening). The queues were 10-15 minutes at most in Wrath. Why? Because more people were tanking and healing, it’s as simple as that.
I remember my dps queues in Wrath being in the 25-30 minute range, fwiw.
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a big influx of tanks once you can buy epics with JPs.
Also, Wrath heroics really didn't become AoE zergfests until you could buy epics with badges. We're already seeing CC disappear from heroics in heroic gear, I fully expect we'll be at Wrath faceroll mode by the time T11/T12 is purchasable.
I just... I just can't believe the whining. This "reward the tank" system was designed specifically to lower DPS queues. It's for DPS.
Instead of being grateful, people bitch about the supposed lost shinies. Since time apparently has no value to these folks, just level a tank to cash in on the FREE LOOT SHOWER, HOOO! It's pretty simple.
No, I don't tank nor have I ever.
And for people suggesting going back to Wrath-styled heroics--well yeah, that probably is the only other option(excluding even more massive game-shattering overhauls). Not sure if it's for the best, though. Hard to say.
Posts
This solves nothing but adds more incentives for everyone to run more dungeouns. This is not a solution, this is people getting more for doing what they already do.
Sadly that is the quickest and easiest method....
Here is a solution from my end... Stop nerfing abilites because of PVP QQing. Just separate the two already. With WoWs implementation of PVP they almost HAVE to exist separately in order to properly tune. Separate the two and tune up dps PVE, get rid of DR on stuns for PVE, increase duration on CC for PVE..
Machanics would still be in place for bosses just tune down the trash and tune up Player PVE abilites.
So basically exactly the same as now, but with a free loot bag too.
If everyone gets the loot bag as long as someone is CTA, then everyone will essentially always get the loot bag.
Which means there's no incentive to queue as tank beyond what exists now.
I just don't like the idea of handing 4 specs free shit because Blizzard can't figure out a better way to get tanks queuing.
Not to mention the massive increase in bad tanks, and off-spec tanks popping in as Ret, Feral cat, etc. and asking the other tank-capable class to do it for them just so they can get their bag AND their instant queue.
Also, people have been wanting other avenues of play to provide guild XP (primarily PvP/battlegrounds), which they've done nothing to address, except, bogglingly, for sub-85 characters.
^ this right here. Nevermind the stupid trek to Auchindoun every day thanks to the removal of Shattrath portals.
Edit: And ultimately this:
Goes back to the bring the player not the class. Even in 10 mans we do this and we have progressed fine. We typically have 2 +/- melee on our regular raiders. Also, it may be old school of me but as raid tank I just plain prefer melee dps on the interrupt fights.
I listed ChoGall because all melee does is stand there and dps the whole time. If you have the AOE melee dps on that fight would almost be preferred over ranged to help with interrupting of the MC faster.
CC works perfectly fine in heroics now when people use it properly. Or at all.
You don't even know what the drop rate of the CtA mounts is yet, but clearly it's going to be an awesome way to get every mount under the sun.
I know
The fact that I'm not eligible for this if I'm currently in a group kinda blows though. But I still don't see myself running more than 1 heroic per day until they change the cap style for VPs, and even then I'm roughly 1000 VPs away from not needing them anymore so this change really won't do anything for me.
I would expect they would be the same low drop rate. But the point is:
As many chances as you can run heroics > 1 per day max.
Well neither can you.
Cross faction pets?
Though it really is silly.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Maybe.
Heroics aren't instant. They take a lot of time and effort. More effort than a normal sethekk halls run. So your argument only holds true if you have an equal chance of getting the reigns for a given bag as you do from killing anzu, which I doubt will be true.
I suspect it would take 4-5 runs to equal the same daily chance, which by that point you're putting in so much more effort I don't see what there is the complain about.
Except that the tank isn't prevented from running sethekk and then also as many heroics as he likes as well. The DPS has no way to have multiple chances to get the mount each day, the tank does.
I'll just wait around for my bag of gold and chance at a mount/pet I don't care about now that I already have my dragonhawk. Still not running more than 1 per day until they change the VP cap.
The only thing that allows melee to stand there and DPS the whole time (side note: if they're just standing and DPSing Cho'gall when the tentacles pop, you've got a problem) is the presence of a significant number of ranged. That is not a melee advantage at all. In fact, if you have too many melee, Cho'gall becomes a far more difficult fight. Extra ranged cost you nothing and give you far more flexibility. Melee aren't any better at interrupting the MC than ranged on that fight; it's more of a class/spec thing, but ranged specs actually have more ways to be able to stop a channeling at range or AoE-interrupt multiple channelings (psychic scream, dragon's breath).
You're getting dangerously close to the good old "you can't say this movie/book/show/game/etc. sucks because you haven't made a better one!" argument.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
None of this invalidates that X+1 > 1.
Yeah but I don't get paid to do this kind of thing.
I'm surprised no one has tried justifying it by claiming "But tanks are screwed because they can't do anything while waiting for queues! DPS get the advantage of having 40 minutes to do whatever whereas poor tanks have no time at all!"
Mini instances where you take a friendly NPC with you to complete it. That would be the most basic summary. In LOTRO you pick a friendly NPC to take with you (Healer/DPS/Tank) and he/she levels up with you as you do skirmishes. You can then equip the npc with abilites/spells/gear that you grind out while doing skirmishes.
In the end it would put into place instances where you can solo,duo,small group and bring NPC with you to complete the instance on a difficulty scale. More players=More difficulty. Higher Difficulty = More points to spend on gear/NPC stuff.
At the end of the day is the DPS queue shorter? Does this mean on my DPS character I don't have to wait between 30 and 40+ minutes at times and instead I only wait 10? If yes, who cares if the tank or healer has a <1% chance at a random mount/pet
Thus far I've read people whining because it's not fair that these people get a bag with <1% Chance at stuff that doesn't matter and who knows how much gold (more than likely 13..seems to be their fav number)
I've seen no suggestions on how to make tanking/healing less of a chore...as a tank you are required to have each and every pull memorized, know what to CC and what boss mechanics are. as a healer you are required to keep everyone alive. If the tank or healers don't do this everyone bitches and everyone notices. DPS are required to show up. All you need to do is CC the mob that's marked with a predetermined symbol, not stand in fire, and interrupt anything you can. Which the majority of the time they fail to do 2 or more of these activities.
Is the bag of goodies a bandaid.. sure... once it's no longer good enough to ensure queues I'm sure something else will be done. Until then I'll take my bag when I tank... and thank god I'm not sitting around with a thumb up my ass waiting for my DPS que to finish.
Eh, the point its easy to criticize.
The only real alternatives anyone is proposing are changes on the level of expansion stuff, and obviously that's not going to work.
The DPS are bitching like they're not getting anything here. Is the tiny chance a tank might get a mount that everyone already has access to such a high price to pay for shorter a queue? Blizzard isn't taking a god damn thing away from anyone, they're just giving people a reason to play tanks.
This is a win for everyone.
Even it's "not a big deal", it's still a 1 + X chance of getting the mount. Even if that means it goes from .02 to .06, that's still a higher chance.
And considering I will always have a .02% chance on my Mage and you can run heroics all day for it, it can go from "Not a big deal" to "completely unfair".
But then again, Blizzard gave other races more mounts because it was slightly harder but still doable to get the 100 mounts achievement done.
And no I don't mean how Tauren and Draenei had to bust their asses. Making all horde/alliance mounts work for all horde/alliance was a good idea.
I mean adding one extra mount to vendors to "even the score", so to speak. Something tells me the mount and pet will slowly shift out of the bag, or be something you could have just bought anyway (Awesome a mount! Oh, Swift Brown Wolf.)
I dont want to start a big ol argument. I am well aware of, and actually stated in my reponse, that you need the AOE on chewie. I was stating my opinion. On Maloriak, Tron, and other fights that require interrupts or multiple interupts I just plainly prefer melee dps to do it. My preference. We typically have a DK or two and/or Enhance Shaman.
PS I love interrupting the MC the Melee DPS with my shockwave. Quick and easy.
A couple other questions. What sort of time investment was involved in clearing a skirmish? And since you were dealing with an AI controlled partner, how did that work out? Were there typical "retard AI" issues? How much control did you have over his actions?
I had a long post for this but im not going to bother and im sure what im going to say is going to call the few elite here to cry foul, but there really is a simple solution. Well its 2, but 1 cannot possibly be done as its too late.
1 - NERF the heroics so that its a lot more accessible to EVERYONE. You ask someone now if they want to tank a random, chances are you will get a GTFO. Hell you got that in here with people doing mainly guild runs.
2 - Shorten them. Whether it be length or HP's of mobs. Max instance length should be 25, max 30 if you wipe. Nothing more, maybe less.
You want new tanks.. you got new tanks. I think Cat was a huge mis-step from WOTLK. WOTLK was a heck of a lot more accessible to everyone, plus you had more options out of the gate. You had Naxx which was a glorified, long ass Heroic. But you could do it immediately, and with all the gear you were getting you could gear up a second spec quite quickly. It wasnt as easy now as dual spec but man, people were a lot more willing to go spend money to spec change and tank than now. Its not worth the headache.
It has been awhile. But when I was doing Skirmishes I was on a tank class so I chose a healer. The healer seemed to use the abilities very well and I had the common pet commands. Defend this, go here, stay put... etc. The NPC would use the abilities I gave it. So if I wanted a healer that had a offensive spell and hots I could just give those abilites to the NPC. Think Hunter Pet but with a little more AI on it. The typical skirmish had a CD on Queue and took around 15-30min to complete if I remember correctly and dropped items and points. The items were basically shards that were used as currency for gear for yourself and the NPC and points needed for assigning,upgrading,buying of the abilites for the NPC.
This wouldnt need to be the implementation that WoW would use of course but something along the same lines where you grind out gear or the like. I loved the skirmishes in LOTRO.
/popcorn
Hunters are literally the only ranged class that can't stand on a melee pile and function as melee as far as things like "everyone needs to stack up for easier interrupting of MC" goes. If your ranged are standing back on Cho'gall when they're not taking care of an add/bloods, that's a tactical issue, not melee/ranged mechanics one.
It's fine if you prefer the melee you play with to be interrupting. I'm just saying there's no interrupt situation in Cata where a melee couldn't be replaced with a competent/hit capped (until 4.1) shaman.
Considering this spawned from a discussion of Kara/TBC unfriendly toward melee, I think it's worth noting that once the 360-cleave type issues in Kara were fixed, it was actually less punishing to have extra melee in Kara than it's been in Cata. Overall Kara had far fewer "ranged are the only (or only reasonable) way to handle X" mechanics/enemies than T11.
I remember my dps queues in Wrath being in the 25-30 minute range, fwiw.
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a big influx of tanks once you can buy epics with JPs.
Also, Wrath heroics really didn't become AoE zergfests until you could buy epics with badges. We're already seeing CC disappear from heroics in heroic gear, I fully expect we'll be at Wrath faceroll mode by the time T11/T12 is purchasable.
Instead of being grateful, people bitch about the supposed lost shinies. Since time apparently has no value to these folks, just level a tank to cash in on the FREE LOOT SHOWER, HOOO! It's pretty simple.
And for people suggesting going back to Wrath-styled heroics--well yeah, that probably is the only other option(excluding even more massive game-shattering overhauls). Not sure if it's for the best, though. Hard to say.
God that was a snooze fest.
Games that are designed based on the whims of the players sink hard.