Uuuuugggghhhh fucking Nef is stumbling my guild. We have the strat down but our execution is poor. Missed kicks on phase 2 fuck us a lot. It sucks because we worked out phase 3 kiting just fine but what's that? Fire on both his sides? Well fuck. I'm not even sure what we can do at this point to make it better. We just need to be better players and that a lot less tangible.
I am not sure how you would miss kicks, unless it's because you're losing to the lip-of-the-pillar boss and missing the first one. And if you have fire on both sides of the boss it's because you don't have phase 3 kiting worked out. The fire only ever goes after the adds, if it's hiting the raid, it's because your kiter let one get loose, didn't get them all to drop, or you didn't stack them enough in phase 1. This isn't anything horrible on their part, that kiting is probably the hardest role in any fight at the moment.
I queued as a healer and had a 5 min queue time -- got an in progress throne of tides [which sort of irked me since I could use the shoulders from the beginning]. In Progress turns out they were right in front of ozumat. Quickest run for me ever. I then had a 15 min specific queue [VP, HoO, BRC] got VP and got a great tank with decent dps and had zero deaths for the run. I am having really bad luck with drops lately.
What are your servers selling valor point boots for? I am thinking of buying them so I can use my VP on something else
We’ve been following discussions and reading feedback on the Dungeon Finder Call to Arms feature, and appreciate everyone’s opinions on the topic. We wanted to share a few items though that supplement the recent announcement:
The additional reward for completing the Dungeon Finder Call to Arms (called the Satchel of Exotic Mysteries) will be Bind on Account; able to be freely sent to other characters on your account once you receive it.
An error existed in the announcement regarding flasks and potions being picked based on your spec. This is not the case. If someone earns a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries, and if it rolls the random chance to provide a potion or flask, it will be a randomly selected. This helps ensure a broad array of available flasks and potions for all characters.
We also wanted to clarify, mounts that have a possibility to be found in a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries are found with the same rarity as if you had slain the dungeon boss that normally drops them.
BoA should make people who have mount farms on non-tank characters happier, at least.
oh, that's good. :^:
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
The goodie bag adds an incentive to queue solo for these tanks. That's why it's restricted to heroics and that's why it's restricted to solo queuing. CtA is supposed to re-enter tanks into the system that can carry a group by themselves.
I'm not buying it, raid geared tanks could easily just solo the dungeons that contain the mounts (there has been no indication that the drop rate will be higher) and I doubt the money/items will be sufficient to change their minds. Now if there were unique items that might change but then they would be going back on their own policy of now punishing people over what class they play.
In my opinion what this will do is lead to people that currently dps either respeccing or rerolling. This will lead to undergeared/inexperienced tanks and healers joining the queue. There is nothing wrong with that but it won't solve the frustration, just move it from the queue times to running the instances.
You're wrong.
I will Solo Queue in patch 4.1 for Heroics instead of sitting around in Org, Fishing, or doing Archeology. I am not the only Tank at my iLvL that will do this.
We’ve been following discussions and reading feedback on the Dungeon Finder Call to Arms feature, and appreciate everyone’s opinions on the topic. We wanted to share a few items though that supplement the recent announcement:
The additional reward for completing the Dungeon Finder Call to Arms (called the Satchel of Exotic Mysteries) will be Bind on Account; able to be freely sent to other characters on your account once you receive it.
An error existed in the announcement regarding flasks and potions being picked based on your spec. This is not the case. If someone earns a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries, and if it rolls the random chance to provide a potion or flask, it will be a randomly selected. This helps ensure a broad array of available flasks and potions for all characters.
We also wanted to clarify, mounts that have a possibility to be found in a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries are found with the same rarity as if you had slain the dungeon boss that normally drops them.
BoA should make people who have mount farms on non-tank characters happier, at least.
oh, that's good. :^:
But this isn't fair...!!!... All of my characters are DPS only, why should I be forced to roll a healer or a tank so that I can get a chance to get a bag that has a low chance at a mount that I want on my Warlock!!!
I queued as a healer and had a 5 min queue time -- got an in progress throne of tides [which sort of irked me since I could use the shoulders from the beginning]. In Progress turns out they were right in front of ozumat. Quickest run for me ever. I then had a 15 min specific queue [VP, HoO, BRC] got VP and got a great tank with decent dps and had zero deaths for the run. I am having really bad luck with drops lately.
What are your servers selling valor point boots for? I am thinking of buying them so I can use my VP on something else
What class are you? I ask because as a resto shaman, there are epic quality boots from Earthern ring that are nearly on par with the BoE valor boots (I think all that I've written there is correct) provided you get the rep.
I've no idea about any other healers and their boots though.
We also wanted to clarify, mounts that have a possibility to be found in a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries are found with the same rarity as if you had slain the dungeon boss that normally drops them.
We’ve been following discussions and reading feedback on the Dungeon Finder Call to Arms feature, and appreciate everyone’s opinions on the topic. We wanted to share a few items though that supplement the recent announcement:
The additional reward for completing the Dungeon Finder Call to Arms (called the Satchel of Exotic Mysteries) will be Bind on Account; able to be freely sent to other characters on your account once you receive it.
An error existed in the announcement regarding flasks and potions being picked based on your spec. This is not the case. If someone earns a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries, and if it rolls the random chance to provide a potion or flask, it will be a randomly selected. This helps ensure a broad array of available flasks and potions for all characters.
We also wanted to clarify, mounts that have a possibility to be found in a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries are found with the same rarity as if you had slain the dungeon boss that normally drops them.
BoA should make people who have mount farms on non-tank characters happier, at least.
oh, that's good. :^:
But this isn't fair...!!!... All of my characters are DPS only, why should I be forced to roll a healer or a tank so that I can get a chance to get a bag that has a low chance at a mount that I want on my Warlock!!!
Don't be such an entitled baby, shorter dungeon queues should be more than enough of a reward. I mean for example look at tanks now, they have instant queues and it's... oh.
-SPI- on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Uuuuugggghhhh fucking Nef is stumbling my guild. We have the strat down but our execution is poor. Missed kicks on phase 2 fuck us a lot. It sucks because we worked out phase 3 kiting just fine but what's that? Fire on both his sides? Well fuck. I'm not even sure what we can do at this point to make it better. We just need to be better players and that a lot less tangible.
I am not sure how you would miss kicks, unless it's because you're losing to the lip-of-the-pillar boss and missing the first one. And if you have fire on both sides of the boss it's because you don't have phase 3 kiting worked out. The fire only ever goes after the adds, if it's hiting the raid, it's because your kiter let one get loose, didn't get them all to drop, or you didn't stack them enough in phase 1. This isn't anything horrible on their part, that kiting is probably the hardest role in any fight at the moment.
We're missing kicks because of players being bad. Two kickers + tank on each pillar means that no kick should ever be missed.
But almost every pull, there's a missed kick on one of the three and oh god the pain of wiping.
Phase 3 the fire thing happened once, but it happened our best attempt. It sucked. It really sucked.
Uuuuugggghhhh fucking Nef is stumbling my guild. We have the strat down but our execution is poor. Missed kicks on phase 2 fuck us a lot. It sucks because we worked out phase 3 kiting just fine but what's that? Fire on both his sides? Well fuck. I'm not even sure what we can do at this point to make it better. We just need to be better players and that a lot less tangible.
I am not sure how you would miss kicks, unless it's because you're losing to the lip-of-the-pillar boss and missing the first one. And if you have fire on both sides of the boss it's because you don't have phase 3 kiting worked out. The fire only ever goes after the adds, if it's hiting the raid, it's because your kiter let one get loose, didn't get them all to drop, or you didn't stack them enough in phase 1. This isn't anything horrible on their part, that kiting is probably the hardest role in any fight at the moment.
We're missing kicks because of players being bad. Two kickers + tank on each pillar means that no kick should ever be missed.
But almost every pull, there's a missed kick on one of the three and oh god the pain of wiping.
Phase 3 the fire thing happened once, but it happened our best attempt. It sucked. It really sucked.
I haven't raided this tier but we used to assign kickers on general vezax when we first started trying to kill him in ten-man, how we did it was two groups of two and we'd set up a macro on our interrupts to whisper the other group.
Might this help? we did it to prevent everyone from using there interrupts on the same searing flame risking none being up the next time it came around, we found it helped stop the confusion of whose 'turn' it was to interrupt when you got a whisper in all caps 'INTERRUPTED, YOUR TURN NEXT!'
If you miss interrupts during p2 you do not have the strat down. The cast is not that quick and with 3 interrupters per platform it should not be missed. As bowen said if your having problems during P2, P3 will kick your ass. We still wipe to it as any flaw in your execution means someone important will go down... most likely the add tank.
We also crackle during p2 but it is not needed it just makes p3 last that much longer which you dont want. The fight is still very straight forward but its the little things that seem so easy to do that cause you the most problems.
Uh, yes, we do have the strategy down. The strategy we're running is flawless.
Because we've down Nefarian already
The problem is our execution of the strategy. We've regressed to failing at phase 2 and 3. Phase 1 has never been an issue.
I mean basically, we have two kickers + a back up (as tanks aren't hit capped so relying on them to interrupt is dumb) who are supposed to alternate. Then "Oh shit, I missed that one" or "Crap, I hit it too early" or "Fuck, I hit at the same time as you" then the tank kick missed and well fuck, Blast Nova, Electrocute and Wipe.
On the times we get through Phase 2 and we hit 3, we start out with Nef between 50 and 60%, occasionally just above 60 if our DPS was slow in 2 and healers are assigned Electrocutes to blow cooldowns on to keep the DPS up. That hasn't failed us. What has, is the kiting of the adds. We had a really good strategy last night that was working pretty well but then oh shit, fire just dropped on one of the kiting tank healers and killed them. Then the two tanks go down because now they're short a healer and being beat on. Shit, an add got free on resurrect and fire is now in the raid.
It's stupid shit like that that is wiping us. Our strategy works. Our execution of the strategy is failing us.
There's also some players who I feel aren't pulling their weight. Some of our druids aren't using Barkskin on Electrocute like they should and it's grating me.
Oh so your in the same boat as us. Downed him several times but raiders getting lazy in execution. We have been making too many little mistakes aka lack of focus aka whatever causes us to fail taht night for a few attampts heh.
And? It's still something a lot of players want, and the game isn't hurt by opening up options and giving people more to do.
Actually it is. Balance goes all to shit the more respeccing options you get and the easier you make it. The more specs you introduce, the more specialized for a very specific task each spec gets because you can pick and choose for each specific scenario without penalty. And that goes against the entire idea of specialization in the first place and makes choices and tradeoffs even more meaningless.
Specifics? What balance goes all to shit with three specs? Or four specs? At which point does this nebulous scenario kick in? Has it already come into play with two specs? Shit, our OT can go DPS on Atramedes because we only need one tank!
The more specs you have, the more specialized each one can be. That means taking the specific combination of talents that make me best at my roll in this encounter, and then switching to another for the next encounter. (Hey this boss has alot of adds, lemme switch to this spec that has all the AoE boosts. Oh, next boss has no adds, let me switch out of all my AoE talents and grab other ones instead) So if I have, say, infinite specs, I can do this in any combination I can imagine. And once you can reasonably do it, the game has to be balanced on the assumption that you WILL do it.
It also makes choices in spec even less meaningful. I'm only making a choice for a specific fight and not for how my character plays in general. The trade-off nature of talents becomes even more of a joke.
And it has, I'm sure with some hardcore types, already come into play with 2 specs. And with every spec you add, it comes more and more into play. Which is, you know, why they are so reluctant to add additional ones. Each additional spec is another step in that direction and they want to discourage that behavior as much as possible. There's a balance between offering versatility and giving too much versatility so that specialization becomes more meaningless and the game has to be balanced around assuming you have the exact perfect talent spec for every encounter. It's a sliding scale.
They seem to feel 2 is a good balance. I could see 3 personally (tank or heal/DPS/PVP) as a good place to be, but 2 works fine as well. This is compounded also by the fact that some specs only do 2 roles (PvE/PvP) and some can do like 8 (druids).
It's not a nebulous scenario just because you don't understand the idea.
Well...
There is no limit on the number of respecs you can do at a trainer. I mean, what's the argument here, you have never and no one you know has ever respecced for that one specific fight? It's already - and has been for years - a convenience tax, not the pillars keeping the balance-sky in place. The "hardcore" has been able to adapt to specific encounters since vanilla, and we havn't fallen down the slippery slope of changing classes yet.
Secondly, we're already pretty specialized. It's not about being "dedicated" to PvE and PvP at the same time, it's about being able to meaningfully contribute to one without excluding oneself from participation in the other. I think we're already at the point were you can either show up in a PvE spec or you can GTFO the raid, because the encounters aren't - have they ever been since maybe parts of vanilla? - balanced around the idea that you're in your PvP spec. Or some JOAT spec. Is there actually room to make the game more spec tuned than it already is?
I love how you brush over the "convenience tax" as if it's nothing.
By this logic, we've had infinite specs since basically launch when you could respec as many times as you wanted. So why do you even need dual spec, let alone more?
Oh right, because that "convenience tax" is fucking HUGE.
I'm curious what a reasonable expectation of execution is, particularly in heroics. Should heroics have to be tactical? Should heroics require paying some attention to position? Require CC? Should heroics have mechanics that you can't ignore (i.e one shot if you do x)?
What's a reasonable expectation of personal performance to balance around? 90% of class potential? 50%? 25%?
I wonder what the general expectation is, because people keep talking about how heroics are hard and I'm just not seeing it (even in a lot of pugs). I feel like the LFD system has established an expectation that you can do content with zero coordination between a randomly constructed group of 5 strangers, and I wonder if that's a realistic outcome. Or a desirable one.
We never really had a hard time with Nef at all to be honest. Spent more time on Maloriak and Ascendent Council.
The only thing that gave us issues was dealing with adds in phase 1 as a 10 man group, we just have our hunter tank them with nemesis. We have some fantastic tanks though, so p3 never was an issue. Over all the fight is really rather simple.
I'm curious what a reasonable expectation of execution is, particularly in heroics. Should heroics have to be tactical? Should heroics require paying some attention to position? Require CC? Should heroics have mechanics that you can't ignore (i.e one shot if you do x)?
What's a reasonable expectation of personal performance to balance around? 90% of class potential? 50%? 25%?
I wonder what the general expectation is, because people keep talking about how heroics are hard and I'm just not seeing it (even in a lot of pugs). I feel like the LFD system has established an expectation that you can do content with zero coordination between a randomly constructed group of 5 strangers, and I wonder if that's a realistic outcome. Or a desirable one.
I think post-ulduar wrath was really the best honestly. The current heroics are much more fun when running with a guild group than the old wrath ones, but the pug experience is about 6 times worse than it was. As a personal preference I liked knowing that I could go into a pug as a healer, dps or tank and just carry a group of knobheads through some AE bullshit in about 20 minutes regardless of whether they were pants-on-head retarded or oops-my-fly-is-down stupid. I'm pretty sure cata will get there basically the second epics become purchaseable with jp (so probably firelands patch) but man, let me tell you. I quit this game for a month after hitting 80 because pugs just could not do the dungeons.
Now they can mostly do it, but I'll probably have to cycle through 3 or 4 tanks who die because they AE pull and then nobody interrupts the giant fuck off doom spell. Unless I'm the tank, in which case it switches to cycling dps until we get at least 1 motherfucker who can break 10k.
Arkady on
LoL: failboattootoot
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
I'm curious what a reasonable expectation of execution is, particularly in heroics. Should heroics have to be tactical? Should heroics require paying some attention to position? Require CC? Should heroics have mechanics that you can't ignore (i.e one shot if you do x)?
What's a reasonable expectation of personal performance to balance around? 90% of class potential? 50%? 25%?
I wonder what the general expectation is, because people keep talking about how heroics are hard and I'm just not seeing it (even in a lot of pugs). I feel like the LFD system has established an expectation that you can do content with zero coordination between a randomly constructed group of 5 strangers, and I wonder if that's a realistic outcome. Or a desirable one.
Eh, I'll bite.
It's not that heroics are "hard", per se. They're simply more trouble than they're worth. Yes, they're more involved in many cases than the heroics in Wrath for obvious reasons, but that's not really the issue. They were a pain in the ass in Burning Crusade as well, but it was worse there because the rewards were garbage. Hell the loot tables in some cases didn't even change from normal to heroic save for the epic at the end. Once the badge system was introduced, heroics went from their original intended purpose (that being a means of progression for people who weren't in raiding guilds) to a currency-generation system, which is what they are today.
Honestly, with heroics, the newness and 'ooh, ahh' factor wears off by about your third run or so. You know you're going to be seeing these fucking things day in, day out for months/years. Do you really want them to be 'challenging' or involving? For something that is simply a means to an end? You're no longer "experiencing the content" when you're running heroic Stonecore for the 45th time. Most people just want to knock it out and be done with it, just as they did in Wrath (again, admittedly not as easily in the beginning as they did after the first year). With so many people playing alts, the ability to easily gear them and make them viable raid candidates was also a benefit of that system. Far fewer people are bothering to do that these days, in my guild at least.
So that's where the complaint of "Too hard" seems to stem from (based on what I've seen at least). They're not impossible, they never were, but for what you actually get out of them, they're more trouble than they're worth. If they made dailies reward players with points (as they did in Sunwell Isle with badges), most people would probably stop running them altogether.
I'm curious what a reasonable expectation of execution is, particularly in heroics. Should heroics have to be tactical? Should heroics require paying some attention to position? Require CC? Should heroics have mechanics that you can't ignore (i.e one shot if you do x)?
What's a reasonable expectation of personal performance to balance around? 90% of class potential? 50%? 25%?
I wonder what the general expectation is, because people keep talking about how heroics are hard and I'm just not seeing it (even in a lot of pugs). I feel like the LFD system has established an expectation that you can do content with zero coordination between a randomly constructed group of 5 strangers, and I wonder if that's a realistic outcome. Or a desirable one.
Eh, I'll bite.
It's not that heroics are "hard", per se. They're simply more trouble than they're worth. Yes, they're more involved in many cases than the heroics in Wrath for obvious reasons, but that's not really the issue. They were a pain in the ass in Burning Crusade as well, but it was worse there because the rewards were garbage. Hell the loot tables in some cases didn't even change from normal to heroic save for the epic at the end. Once the badge system was introduced, heroics went from their original intended purpose (that being a means of progression for people who weren't in raiding guilds) to a currency-generation system, which is what they are today.
Honestly, with heroics, the newness and 'ooh, ahh' factor wears off by about your third run or so. You know you're going to be seeing these fucking things day in, day out for months/years. Do you really want them to be 'challenging' or involving? For something that is simply a means to an end? You're no longer "experiencing the content" when you're running heroic Stonecore for the 45th time. Most people just want to knock it out and be done with it, just as they did in Wrath (again, admittedly not as easily in the beginning as they did after the first year). With so many people playing alts, the ability to easily gear them and make them viable raid candidates was also a benefit of that system. Far fewer people are bothering to do that these days, in my guild at least.
So that's where the complaint of "Too hard" seems to stem from (based on what I've seen at least). They're not impossible, they never were, but for what you actually get out of them, they're more trouble than they're worth. If they made dailies reward players with points (as they did in Sunwell Isle with badges), most people would probably stop running them altogether.
This i think describes how i feel, plus an addition to that which i feel is missing, WOTLK had Naxx to help it along, which was a glorified long Heroic. A bit tougher yes, but it didnt take much to down a few bosses so you had additional chances at gear. It distracted you away from the heroics as you didnt have to endlessly run them. At this point in Cat, im not sure what is the equivalent to that. Youre gear requirements for raids are higher as well. It got people into raiding and ready for raiding a lot quicker.
And? It's still something a lot of players want, and the game isn't hurt by opening up options and giving people more to do.
Actually it is. Balance goes all to shit the more respeccing options you get and the easier you make it. The more specs you introduce, the more specialized for a very specific task each spec gets because you can pick and choose for each specific scenario without penalty. And that goes against the entire idea of specialization in the first place and makes choices and tradeoffs even more meaningless.
Specifics? What balance goes all to shit with three specs? Or four specs? At which point does this nebulous scenario kick in? Has it already come into play with two specs? Shit, our OT can go DPS on Atramedes because we only need one tank!
The more specs you have, the more specialized each one can be. That means taking the specific combination of talents that make me best at my roll in this encounter, and then switching to another for the next encounter. (Hey this boss has alot of adds, lemme switch to this spec that has all the AoE boosts. Oh, next boss has no adds, let me switch out of all my AoE talents and grab other ones instead) So if I have, say, infinite specs, I can do this in any combination I can imagine. And once you can reasonably do it, the game has to be balanced on the assumption that you WILL do it.
What's "the game" in this case? See, already this is nebulous as shit. Solo content? Dungeons? Raids? Heroic raids? Arenas? Battlegrounds? Rated battlegrounds? What "has to be balanced" on these assumptions? And why? Who exactly are they balancing the game for, here? Paragon? The five hours a week folk? There's no description of "balance going all to shit" here, only platitudes about what people can do more conveniently with (a lot) more specs.
Guess what: "the game" already is balanced around your character being more or less optimally speced. You don't kill progression AoE focused fights like heroic Maloriak without your hunters speced survival or your warlocks as demonology. If you're arguing that arenas are even balanced, then apparently you're arguing that they're currently balanced around people skipping PvP oriented talents, since there aren't enough specs available to guarantee that people have an optimal PvP spec.
It also makes choices in spec even less meaningful. I'm only making a choice for a specific fight and not for how my character plays in general. The trade-off nature of talents becomes even more of a joke.
This isn't "balance going all to shit" either. This is "I don't like how more specs feel," which is a different argument.
And it has, I'm sure with some hardcore types, already come into play with 2 specs. And with every spec you add, it comes more and more into play. Which is, you know, why they are so reluctant to add additional ones. Each additional spec is another step in that direction and they want to discourage that behavior as much as possible. There's a balance between offering versatility and giving too much versatility so that specialization becomes more meaningless and the game has to be balanced around assuming you have the exact perfect talent spec for every encounter. It's a sliding scale.
They seem to feel 2 is a good balance. I could see 3 personally (tank or heal/DPS/PVP) as a good place to be, but 2 works fine as well. This is compounded also by the fact that some specs only do 2 roles (PvE/PvP) and some can do like 8 (druids).
2 actually works pretty poorly. I know people playing pure DPS classes who wish they had 3 specs, because raiding realities require them to have two different PvE specs. If they want to PvP, it's respec or play gimped.
It's not a nebulous scenario just because you don't understand the idea.
You're right, it's not. It's a nebulous scenario since you portend doom and gloom, but then you can't actually reach that conclusion without skipping logic and hoping the reader fills in the blanks.
Edit: Or, shit, I should have just limed Calixtus's post on the previous page.
On my all of my characters I have run maybe, maybe five heroics. And all of those have been on my main. And of those five they were all with my guildmates. I've tried the LFD several times but when I can't finish a single dungeon with a PUG after waiting 40ish minutes to get into said dungeon and have it fall apart within minutes it really isn't worth it.
I've been told that if I can gear up I have a spot in both of my guild's 10 man groups from folks in both. My guildies know that I can raid and I can do it well. I'm just at a place where they aren't on unless they are raiding and I'll be damned if I'm going to piss away another 40 minutes to have the group fall apart with the LFD.
So, I just log on, do the Ramkahen dailies (both of them...) maybe some of the Tol Barad ones and then call it a night.
2 actually works pretty poorly. I know people playing pure DPS classes who wish they had 3 specs, because raiding realities require them to have two different PvE specs. If they want to PvP, it's respec or play gimped.
So you do understand exactly what I'm talking about and agree. Strange how you spend so many words getting around to it.
The game isn't balanced around you having multiple PvE specs for the same role, just in slightly different situations. They don't want to balance around that. The more specs you give people to seamlessly switch between, the more this becomes important. Hence, they limit the number of specs you have so it's not a big deal.
I mean seriously, this is really funny. You bitch and moan and then come right around here and show you actually fully understand what I'm talking about. Those DPS you are mentioning are meant to feel like they wish they had more specs because that's the result of having to make a tradeoff, which is the core of a meaningful choice. The same way you might wish you had more talent points because you had to choose between 2 things you wanted.
The reality is, they expect you to have 1 spec per role. If some people choose to have more then that, that's just an unwanted but unavoidable result Blizzard is making in the design. By limiting the number of specs you can simultaneously have ready though, they discourage the unwanted side-effect. That's why they do it.
We never really had a hard time with Nef at all to be honest. Spent more time on Maloriak and Ascendent Council.
The only thing that gave us issues was dealing with adds in phase 1 as a 10 man group, we just have our hunter tank them with nemesis. We have some fantastic tanks though, so p3 never was an issue. Over all the fight is really rather simple.
An updated DBM was the key for me. I couldn't tell when he was about to launch the shit so the issue was the fires were all over the god damned shit.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Is anyone having problems clicking things in chat? For the past week or so I've been unable to click on item links, names to send tells, anything. This is only a very recent problem and I deactivated my one chat mod, so I have no idea what could be causing it. It's irritating.
2 actually works pretty poorly. I know people playing pure DPS classes who wish they had 3 specs, because raiding realities require them to have two different PvE specs. If they want to PvP, it's respec or play gimped.
When are people going to realize that a slightly suboptimal PVE spec for one specific fight isnt the end of the world? I mean I understand trying to bring your A game but seriously having 2 pve specs is not going to be the difference between a raid wipe and a succesful encounter. Even if every single DPS in the raid increased their dps by say 5%, it is not likely that is going to make or break the raid.
So their raiding "realities" are actually not even remotely a reality. Next time one of those people who play a pure dps class tells you about this spec issue tell them not to switch to the preferred spec on a specific fight and see if their raid fails. (hint: it wont)
2 actually works pretty poorly. I know people playing pure DPS classes who wish they had 3 specs, because raiding realities require them to have two different PvE specs. If they want to PvP, it's respec or play gimped.
So you do understand exactly what I'm talking about and agree. Strange how you spend so many words getting around to it.
No? Not sure how you get that from anything there.
The more specs you give people to seamlessly switch between, the more this becomes important. Hence, they limit the number of specs you have so it's not a big deal.
I mean seriously, this is really funny. You bitch and moan and then come right around here and show you actually fully understand what I'm talking about. Those DPS you are mentioning are meant to feel like they wish they had more specs because that's the result of having to make a tradeoff, which is the core of a meaningful choice. The same way you might wish you had more talent points because you had to choose between 2 things you wanted.
The tradeoff they're making is "waste a bunch of time each time they want to PvP," "be gimped at PvP," or "don't PvP even if they'd like to sometimes." Pick what you like. I'm trying to figure out how those tradeoffs are beneficial to the game or an interesting design.
More talent points is a completely separate issue from number of specs and respecs. That you don't understand that is "really funny," by which I of course mean "really sad."
The reality is, they expect you to have 1 spec per role.
Source? Sounds more like your assumption than anything. The fact that you've always been able to respec seems like 6.5 year old evidence to the contrary.
If some people choose to have more then that, that's just an unwanted but unavoidable result Blizzard is making in the design. By limiting the number of specs you can simultaneously have ready though, they discourage the unwanted side-effect. That's why they do it.
As I noted before, inconvenience is a lousy design for discouragement, and 6.5 years of changes to WoW have consistently demonstrated a general agreement with this philosophy. If you're pro-rigmarole, WoW is pretty far from the ideal MMO.
A final note: if you're a raider with zero interest in PvP or you're only ever required to fill one role, you've already broken this supposed design expectation you assume they have. Or if you only PvP and don't do any progression PvE content (i.e., you just do an occasional heroic or Baradin Hold), then you've also broken the "sacred design." Why is it that when you have an interest in more than one area of the game or want to fill more than a couple roles, you're told "we're just fine with you doing this, but we want it to be a hassle for you"? That's the reality.
2 actually works pretty poorly. I know people playing pure DPS classes who wish they had 3 specs, because raiding realities require them to have two different PvE specs. If they want to PvP, it's respec or play gimped.
When are people going to realize that a slightly suboptimal PVE spec for one specific fight isnt the end of the world? I mean I understand trying to bring your A game but seriously having 2 pve specs is not going to be the difference between a raid wipe and a succesful encounter. Even if every single DPS in the raid increased their dps by say 5%, it is not likely that is going to make or break the raid.
So their raiding "realities" are actually not even remotely a reality. Next time one of those people who play a pure dps class tells you about this spec issue tell them not to switch to the preferred spec on a specific fight and see if their raid fails. (hint: it wont)
I think you need to realize that this is the reality of progression raiding. The first time we killed heroic Maloriak, we could not get the oozes or aberrations down in time without maximizing our AoE potential. Specifically, this involved our warlocks switching to demonology. Our hunters at the time were already rolling survival anyway because it's an add focused fight, but if they had been marksmanship instead, doing, say, 20% less damage to the adds, you can bet that would have broken the raid more than made it.
Or our first heroic Chimaeron kill. We would not have downed it without a priest going discipline for Mortality phase PWS spam.
Hell, we had an 80k health heroic Atramedes wipe once. I've never seen a wipe->boss despawn with such low health (less than .1% of total) before. Not that it was a spec issue, really, but that's the degree of closeness progression fights come down to sometimes.
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I am not sure how you would miss kicks, unless it's because you're losing to the lip-of-the-pillar boss and missing the first one. And if you have fire on both sides of the boss it's because you don't have phase 3 kiting worked out. The fire only ever goes after the adds, if it's hiting the raid, it's because your kiter let one get loose, didn't get them all to drop, or you didn't stack them enough in phase 1. This isn't anything horrible on their part, that kiting is probably the hardest role in any fight at the moment.
What are your servers selling valor point boots for? I am thinking of buying them so I can use my VP on something else
oh, that's good. :^:
You're wrong.
I will Solo Queue in patch 4.1 for Heroics instead of sitting around in Org, Fishing, or doing Archeology. I am not the only Tank at my iLvL that will do this.
But this isn't fair...!!!... All of my characters are DPS only, why should I be forced to roll a healer or a tank so that I can get a chance to get a bag that has a low chance at a mount that I want on my Warlock!!!
What class are you? I ask because as a resto shaman, there are epic quality boots from Earthern ring that are nearly on par with the BoE valor boots (I think all that I've written there is correct) provided you get the rep.
I've no idea about any other healers and their boots though.
Ha.
We're missing kicks because of players being bad. Two kickers + tank on each pillar means that no kick should ever be missed.
But almost every pull, there's a missed kick on one of the three and oh god the pain of wiping.
Phase 3 the fire thing happened once, but it happened our best attempt. It sucked. It really sucked.
I haven't raided this tier but we used to assign kickers on general vezax when we first started trying to kill him in ten-man, how we did it was two groups of two and we'd set up a macro on our interrupts to whisper the other group.
Might this help? we did it to prevent everyone from using there interrupts on the same searing flame risking none being up the next time it came around, we found it helped stop the confusion of whose 'turn' it was to interrupt when you got a whisper in all caps 'INTERRUPTED, YOUR TURN NEXT!'
That was how we did it. That is white-knuckle difficult.
???
I meant that it is not needed and if you dont it makes p3 last that much longer...
Because we've down Nefarian already
The problem is our execution of the strategy. We've regressed to failing at phase 2 and 3. Phase 1 has never been an issue.
I mean basically, we have two kickers + a back up (as tanks aren't hit capped so relying on them to interrupt is dumb) who are supposed to alternate. Then "Oh shit, I missed that one" or "Crap, I hit it too early" or "Fuck, I hit at the same time as you" then the tank kick missed and well fuck, Blast Nova, Electrocute and Wipe.
On the times we get through Phase 2 and we hit 3, we start out with Nef between 50 and 60%, occasionally just above 60 if our DPS was slow in 2 and healers are assigned Electrocutes to blow cooldowns on to keep the DPS up. That hasn't failed us. What has, is the kiting of the adds. We had a really good strategy last night that was working pretty well but then oh shit, fire just dropped on one of the kiting tank healers and killed them. Then the two tanks go down because now they're short a healer and being beat on. Shit, an add got free on resurrect and fire is now in the raid.
It's stupid shit like that that is wiping us. Our strategy works. Our execution of the strategy is failing us.
There's also some players who I feel aren't pulling their weight. Some of our druids aren't using Barkskin on Electrocute like they should and it's grating me.
I love how you brush over the "convenience tax" as if it's nothing.
By this logic, we've had infinite specs since basically launch when you could respec as many times as you wanted. So why do you even need dual spec, let alone more?
Oh right, because that "convenience tax" is fucking HUGE.
What's a reasonable expectation of personal performance to balance around? 90% of class potential? 50%? 25%?
I wonder what the general expectation is, because people keep talking about how heroics are hard and I'm just not seeing it (even in a lot of pugs). I feel like the LFD system has established an expectation that you can do content with zero coordination between a randomly constructed group of 5 strangers, and I wonder if that's a realistic outcome. Or a desirable one.
The only thing that gave us issues was dealing with adds in phase 1 as a 10 man group, we just have our hunter tank them with nemesis. We have some fantastic tanks though, so p3 never was an issue. Over all the fight is really rather simple.
I think post-ulduar wrath was really the best honestly. The current heroics are much more fun when running with a guild group than the old wrath ones, but the pug experience is about 6 times worse than it was. As a personal preference I liked knowing that I could go into a pug as a healer, dps or tank and just carry a group of knobheads through some AE bullshit in about 20 minutes regardless of whether they were pants-on-head retarded or oops-my-fly-is-down stupid. I'm pretty sure cata will get there basically the second epics become purchaseable with jp (so probably firelands patch) but man, let me tell you. I quit this game for a month after hitting 80 because pugs just could not do the dungeons.
Now they can mostly do it, but I'll probably have to cycle through 3 or 4 tanks who die because they AE pull and then nobody interrupts the giant fuck off doom spell. Unless I'm the tank, in which case it switches to cycling dps until we get at least 1 motherfucker who can break 10k.
LoL: failboattootoot
Eh, I'll bite.
It's not that heroics are "hard", per se. They're simply more trouble than they're worth. Yes, they're more involved in many cases than the heroics in Wrath for obvious reasons, but that's not really the issue. They were a pain in the ass in Burning Crusade as well, but it was worse there because the rewards were garbage. Hell the loot tables in some cases didn't even change from normal to heroic save for the epic at the end. Once the badge system was introduced, heroics went from their original intended purpose (that being a means of progression for people who weren't in raiding guilds) to a currency-generation system, which is what they are today.
Honestly, with heroics, the newness and 'ooh, ahh' factor wears off by about your third run or so. You know you're going to be seeing these fucking things day in, day out for months/years. Do you really want them to be 'challenging' or involving? For something that is simply a means to an end? You're no longer "experiencing the content" when you're running heroic Stonecore for the 45th time. Most people just want to knock it out and be done with it, just as they did in Wrath (again, admittedly not as easily in the beginning as they did after the first year). With so many people playing alts, the ability to easily gear them and make them viable raid candidates was also a benefit of that system. Far fewer people are bothering to do that these days, in my guild at least.
So that's where the complaint of "Too hard" seems to stem from (based on what I've seen at least). They're not impossible, they never were, but for what you actually get out of them, they're more trouble than they're worth. If they made dailies reward players with points (as they did in Sunwell Isle with badges), most people would probably stop running them altogether.
This i think describes how i feel, plus an addition to that which i feel is missing, WOTLK had Naxx to help it along, which was a glorified long Heroic. A bit tougher yes, but it didnt take much to down a few bosses so you had additional chances at gear. It distracted you away from the heroics as you didnt have to endlessly run them. At this point in Cat, im not sure what is the equivalent to that. Youre gear requirements for raids are higher as well. It got people into raiding and ready for raiding a lot quicker.
Guess what: "the game" already is balanced around your character being more or less optimally speced. You don't kill progression AoE focused fights like heroic Maloriak without your hunters speced survival or your warlocks as demonology. If you're arguing that arenas are even balanced, then apparently you're arguing that they're currently balanced around people skipping PvP oriented talents, since there aren't enough specs available to guarantee that people have an optimal PvP spec.
This isn't "balance going all to shit" either. This is "I don't like how more specs feel," which is a different argument.
2 actually works pretty poorly. I know people playing pure DPS classes who wish they had 3 specs, because raiding realities require them to have two different PvE specs. If they want to PvP, it's respec or play gimped.
You're right, it's not. It's a nebulous scenario since you portend doom and gloom, but then you can't actually reach that conclusion without skipping logic and hoping the reader fills in the blanks.
Edit: Or, shit, I should have just limed Calixtus's post on the previous page.
On my all of my characters I have run maybe, maybe five heroics. And all of those have been on my main. And of those five they were all with my guildmates. I've tried the LFD several times but when I can't finish a single dungeon with a PUG after waiting 40ish minutes to get into said dungeon and have it fall apart within minutes it really isn't worth it.
I've been told that if I can gear up I have a spot in both of my guild's 10 man groups from folks in both. My guildies know that I can raid and I can do it well. I'm just at a place where they aren't on unless they are raiding and I'll be damned if I'm going to piss away another 40 minutes to have the group fall apart with the LFD.
So, I just log on, do the Ramkahen dailies (both of them...) maybe some of the Tol Barad ones and then call it a night.
So you do understand exactly what I'm talking about and agree. Strange how you spend so many words getting around to it.
The game isn't balanced around you having multiple PvE specs for the same role, just in slightly different situations. They don't want to balance around that. The more specs you give people to seamlessly switch between, the more this becomes important. Hence, they limit the number of specs you have so it's not a big deal.
I mean seriously, this is really funny. You bitch and moan and then come right around here and show you actually fully understand what I'm talking about. Those DPS you are mentioning are meant to feel like they wish they had more specs because that's the result of having to make a tradeoff, which is the core of a meaningful choice. The same way you might wish you had more talent points because you had to choose between 2 things you wanted.
The reality is, they expect you to have 1 spec per role. If some people choose to have more then that, that's just an unwanted but unavoidable result Blizzard is making in the design. By limiting the number of specs you can simultaneously have ready though, they discourage the unwanted side-effect. That's why they do it.
An updated DBM was the key for me. I couldn't tell when he was about to launch the shit so the issue was the fires were all over the god damned shit.
When are people going to realize that a slightly suboptimal PVE spec for one specific fight isnt the end of the world? I mean I understand trying to bring your A game but seriously having 2 pve specs is not going to be the difference between a raid wipe and a succesful encounter. Even if every single DPS in the raid increased their dps by say 5%, it is not likely that is going to make or break the raid.
So their raiding "realities" are actually not even remotely a reality. Next time one of those people who play a pure dps class tells you about this spec issue tell them not to switch to the preferred spec on a specific fight and see if their raid fails. (hint: it wont)
Cata bosses are often soloable. I've done Orzuk, all 3 VP bosses, some DM bosses, etc. at least from 50% solo when my party died. But trash isn't...
But it is. There are specs that simply do not cut the mustard for AoE, control, burst, etc.
Apparently they already do.
So what changes exactly in "tri-spec WoW"?
The tradeoff they're making is "waste a bunch of time each time they want to PvP," "be gimped at PvP," or "don't PvP even if they'd like to sometimes." Pick what you like. I'm trying to figure out how those tradeoffs are beneficial to the game or an interesting design.
More talent points is a completely separate issue from number of specs and respecs. That you don't understand that is "really funny," by which I of course mean "really sad."
Source? Sounds more like your assumption than anything. The fact that you've always been able to respec seems like 6.5 year old evidence to the contrary.
As I noted before, inconvenience is a lousy design for discouragement, and 6.5 years of changes to WoW have consistently demonstrated a general agreement with this philosophy. If you're pro-rigmarole, WoW is pretty far from the ideal MMO.
A final note: if you're a raider with zero interest in PvP or you're only ever required to fill one role, you've already broken this supposed design expectation you assume they have. Or if you only PvP and don't do any progression PvE content (i.e., you just do an occasional heroic or Baradin Hold), then you've also broken the "sacred design." Why is it that when you have an interest in more than one area of the game or want to fill more than a couple roles, you're told "we're just fine with you doing this, but we want it to be a hassle for you"? That's the reality.
Or our first heroic Chimaeron kill. We would not have downed it without a priest going discipline for Mortality phase PWS spam.
Hell, we had an 80k health heroic Atramedes wipe once. I've never seen a wipe->boss despawn with such low health (less than .1% of total) before. Not that it was a spec issue, really, but that's the degree of closeness progression fights come down to sometimes.