Sam should be dead and I think its stupid he isn't. When whatsherface super bow and arrow lady shot that other dude next to Sam through the neck, there is no reason for her to just stop, and not shoot Sam as well. But she just did, because Sam. Which I thought was dumb.
I don't know that other dudes name because I watched half of this episode on Mute since most of it was just fighting and nothing important during all of that mess was probably being said other than typical rah rah lets go fight the dudes speeches.
Why would Sam be dead...Pyp was sticking his head up above the wall to shoot at dudes, which gave her a clear shot. Sam was hiding beneath reloading the crossbows. She probably wouldn't have even known he was there. By the time he stood up the battle had progressed and she was probably sniping one of the many other targets.
but with this style of viewing I'm not surprised
She looked right at him, and just stared at him for a bit. She had plenty of time to shoot him, and given how she'd be shown to be so fast and accurate with a bow there's no reason for her not to. Other than the fact that Sam has Plot Armor.
No she didn't. Just watched it again. It's like a 15 second clip. He's behind the wall the whole time. This is a really silly point to hang your plot armor criticism hat on.
If you say so. I can't watch it again from here, but I remember her being on their side, not from the front, where hiding behind that cover would save him any. If not, then yeah I guess he's safe. But I thought the arrow that killed other guy from from their side because it was sideways through his neck.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
Sam should be dead and I think its stupid he isn't. When whatsherface super bow and arrow lady shot that other dude next to Sam through the neck, there is no reason for her to just stop, and not shoot Sam as well. But she just did, because Sam. Which I thought was dumb.
I don't know that other dudes name because I watched half of this episode on Mute since most of it was just fighting and nothing important during all of that mess was probably being said other than typical rah rah lets go fight the dudes speeches.
Why would Sam be dead...Pyp was sticking his head up above the wall to shoot at dudes, which gave her a clear shot. Sam was hiding beneath reloading the crossbows. She probably wouldn't have even known he was there. By the time he stood up the battle had progressed and she was probably sniping one of the many other targets.
but with this style of viewing I'm not surprised
She looked right at him, and just stared at him for a bit. She had plenty of time to shoot him, and given how she'd be shown to be so fast and accurate with a bow there's no reason for her not to. Other than the fact that Sam has Plot Armor.
No she didn't. Just watched it again. It's like a 15 second clip. He's behind the wall the whole time. This is a really silly point to hang your plot armor criticism hat on.
If you say so. I can't watch it again from here, but I remember her being on their side, not from the front, where hiding behind that cover would save him any. If not, then yeah I guess he's safe. But I thought the arrow that killed other guy from from their side because it was sideways through his neck.
It's a square courtyard. They're on adjacent sides. She got him through the neck from an angle while his head was turned.
The word plot armor is almost always nonsensically paraded about.
For it to mean something, it has to be the only reason a character survives. You can't go "Dany has plot armor because she's important to the plot!" and discard all of the in universe reasons she might be alive. Saying she survived the poisoning attempt because of lol plot armor makes no sense, because it's clearly explained why she survived! It was because Jorah became loyal to her.
If she just went to the next stall and accidentally drank some antidote or some shit that would be weird and bullshit. Characters surviving for meaningful in universe reasons can't just be "olol plot armor". Then everything is plot armor and the term has no meaning.
I think it's a weird idea anyway. Even if you can figure out that "hey, arya and dany probably won't die next episode because it would be nonsensical!" doesn't mean they're invincible. A thousand different terrible horrible things could happen to them anyway so you can't really relax anyway.
And yeah the giant tunnel charge was amazing. But I was content with all the fights in this episode which is saying something, because I'm one of those nitpickers who complain about lame slow fights. Everything in this episode looked great, and all of it was relevant. They had to have this showdown, the story demanded it.
I've now seen the latest episode, and having read a number of reviews that were impressed with its technical achievements but less so with what it means for the characters I gotta say I greatly enjoyed the battle. I like Sam a lot, but Jon has moments that I find surprisingly poignant and endearing. His smile at Ygritte... It's difficult to pull that one off without it becoming corny, but he did it extremely well. I find the guy and the actor relatively boring, yet my heart melted for him in that one moment. So, on a scale from 1 to 10 Helm's Deeps this one gets a 10. Possibly even an 11, due to its lack of Cannibalistic Olympic Runner.
Edit: @Vic_Hazard Plot armour, like plot hole, is one of those terms that loses most of its meaning if looked at out of context. Something is a plot hole if the storytelling that's there isn't strong enough to make you not see it. Similarly, a character is saved by plot armour if the story falters and you no longer believe the reasons it gives you why the character isn't killed. Neither term has any inherent meaning, but they describe ways in which gaps in a story show up once the story no longer holds up (as well) for you.
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
you see, every character has plot armor, because a random gamma ray burst doesn't just kill the whole world instantly in the middle of a random scene
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Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
What I really liked about this episode was how it made you care about people you despised before.
Probably the most emotional scene for me was Thorne fighting Tormund. Especially because up until that point, the show made you hate Thorne and like Tormund (or at least like him more than you liked Thorne). But almost immediately in that fight, you found yourself doing something you didn't think you would do. You were rooting for Thorne.
What I really liked about this episode was how it made you care about people you despised before.
Probably the most emotional scene for me was Thorne fighting Tormund. Especially because up until that point, the show made you hate Thorne and like Tormund (or at least like him more than you liked Thorne). But almost immediately in that fight, you found yourself doing something you didn't think you would do. You were rooting for Thorne.
Or atleast I was.
I think my reaction was one of internal conflict. I couldn't see a way for them to both survive, so I'm glad they (possibly, since I don't think that Thorne's wound is immediately fatal) found a way to resolve it without either getting murdered.
I've now seen the latest episode, and having read a number of reviews that were impressed with its technical achievements but less so with what it means for the characters I gotta say I greatly enjoyed the battle. I like Sam a lot, but Jon has moments that I find surprisingly poignant and endearing. His smile at Ygritte... It's difficult to pull that one off without it becoming corny, but he did it extremely well. I find the guy and the actor relatively boring, yet my heart melted for him in that one moment. So, on a scale from 1 to 10 Helm's Deeps this one gets a 10. Possibly even an 11, due to its lack of Cannibalistic Olympic Runner.
Edit: @Vic_Hazard Plot armour, like plot hole, is one of those terms that loses most of its meaning if looked at out of context. Something is a plot hole if the storytelling that's there isn't strong enough to make you not see it. Similarly, a character is saved by plot armour if the story falters and you no longer believe the reasons it gives you why the character isn't killed. Neither term has any inherent meaning, but they describe ways in which gaps in a story show up once the story no longer holds up (as well) for you.
Exactly, which is why saying that Dany has plot armor makes no sense. In what part of the story does her survival not make sense? She has been surrounded by loyal subjects and fire breathing dragons since S2, she has even gotten free stuff heaped on her for being exotic. She has been in danger sure, but at no point has there been a "whaaaaat how could she not die!". Her chances has only been going up since forever.
If anything Joffrey, Frey and Cersei has (had) plot armor, their survival is a lot more weird than Dany's. I mean Stannis made a failed amphibian assault and presumably had to escape from cavalry on the shore onto rowboats, to row out to ships lying in a bay on fire and he made it without a scratch, without explanations off screen. No one goes "Bullshit Stannis has plot armor!", but people think it's really weird Arya's alive because... Uh...
And if Thorne died I think they'd show it, not show him getting dragged off. At worst he'll die in sickbed next episode so he can still have some dialogue or something.
What I really liked about this episode was how it made you care about people you despised before.
Probably the most emotional scene for me was Thorne fighting Tormund. Especially because up until that point, the show made you hate Thorne and like Tormund (or at least like him more than you liked Thorne). But almost immediately in that fight, you found yourself doing something you didn't think you would do. You were rooting for Thorne.
Or atleast I was.
It helped that Thorne WASN'T all talk. He's an asshole, but he's PROBABLY an asshole you'd rather have on your side than the other one
Grenn was the MVP of the episode (underrated contribution: Getting Slynt the fuck off The Wall. That probably saved lives in some way).
But Thorne was a goddamned pro. Duty over all else for that man. He even tried to impart a little wisdom to Jon, in his own begrudging way.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
This episode was kind of a slog, although there was some good spectacle. Part of the problem is simply that there aren't enough important characters on the Wall, and we never get enough time there. So when what's his face died or who's that bit it, I can't say I was all choked up. Likewise, the Ygritte plotline has gone nowhere since she last saw Jon, so after a long period of "yep, she's alive" check-ins I'm mostly relieved that that story is over.
One of the chief problems with the show overall is that almost every single individual storyline is egregiously paced, and Jon's Adventures At the Wall is one of the worst examples. And it doesn't help that Jon is just a boring character at this point. (Sam is good, though. All the Sam stuff here was good.)
Anyway, this wasn't a bad episode. Its failings belong to the show as a whole, and GoT is a show I'm increasingly unhappy with, although it continues to be fitfully great (last week's episode was fantastic).
I don't know if it's the characters involved or the actors involved. Cersei, Jamie, Joffrey, Tywin, Obeyrn, Varys, and all the other players at Kings Landing are really fun to watch. I always hate it when the show wanders off to what the dragon lady is doing or the wall. Nothing ever happens and none of the characters are all that compelling.
Nothing ever happens?!
I swear, it just boggles the mind, its like we are watching two different shows. Tons of shit happens with the Night's Watch and Daenerys 'dragon lady' Targaryen.
One is entitled to one's opinions, which I disagree wholeheartedly with that Emilia Clarke hasn't been rocking it, but its a straight up fallacy to claim nothing ever happens. You gotta be one jaded point of view to think that all this is "nothing": 'gifted' to a horse raiding warlord, brother is a dick, flips Drogo to do what she wants, impresses the shit out of Jorah and her maidens, dick bro gets a gold crown the hard way, makes a mistake with a witch by not wanting rape on the shoot n loot menu, gives birth to things of legend, convinces a city to let raiders right through the front door, fucks up wizards and con artists, gets the bad ass real deal old man white cloak, sails closer to her poorly thought out iron sword throne, convinces slavers to make a deal with a dragon (never make a deal with a dragon), gets one of the most bad ass group of infantry in the known world in their entirety, convinces mercenaries she is going to win, smokes a number of slave towns, convinces slaves to win her pyramid town, starts to think of more than just burn it all, learns of Jorah's duplicity, and the dragons just keep getting bigger... and that's the short list.
Come on now, seriously, none of the characters involved with all that, are at all compelling? Puh-leez.
Lots of things have happened to Daenerys. One time she got dragons! One time her dragons got stolen. Very little of her story is directed by her; she's very reactive. Somebody stole my dragons, what do I do? Somebody offered me ships, what do I do?* And many of the events of her storyline have been repetitive and/or provided no real progress on her goals or growth.
Moreover, up until literally last episode, every character in her plotline has been subordinate to her motivations--ie., her advisors want to help her succeed, her soldiers want to help her succeed, her Dothraki want to follow her and join in her success, etc. So when she makes no real progress toward her goal, the narratives of everyone around her become stagnant and boring. Yeah, it was cool when Ser Barrister showed up. Has he changed and grown since he's been with her? Gone through struggles, faced challenges, made hard choices, displayed relatable emotions? Not really. The same goes for everybody around her.
"The dragons keep getting bigger" is not an event, it's just a metaphor for that entire stupid side of the show. I'm sick of watching them do nothing at all, I want to see the resolution of the conflict that's been teased and foreshadowed and prophesied for four years now. 90% of the things on your list is the show treading water when the island of Sweet Dragon Battles is right over there, just swim towards it!
*This is true for most stories; the difference is that that those stories have compelling characters on both sides of the conflict, so instead of "the author put a Quarthful of dicks in this character's way to delay her plot" it feels like "Cersei, whom we know and hate, is framing Tyrion for a murder committed by another character we know and are interested in." Daenerys' conflicts always seem like "man versus author" instead of "man versus man" or "man versus nature."
Yes, really. Come on, our attention spans can't be that short as to be so reductive as to call things like Baristan finding out Jorah is a spy and the fallout from that not a challenge with hard choices or Baristan struggling with Dany not choosing his Paragon option with regards to the Masters and so on.
And worse is the notion that her deciding that part of her taking the Iron Throne is her actually knowing what to do with it once she sits her pretty arse down on it and letting her dragons grow to battle ready status ( which includes being big enough to ride on during flight and kill people ... and for a second there we wondered if Drogon had killed the shepherd's kid after he went all crispy critter on the Masters, but that's not progress from them riding in cages, ok... ) is somehow not intelligent progress towards her goal but instead 'treading water'.
I'll put my attention span up against anybody's. Come meet me in the movie thread and we'll see who likes Bela Tarr more. I watched Treme, motherfucker, come at me!
It's not a "this moves too slow" problem. It's a "these are not the events we're looking for" problem. The plotline is not framed for us as a slice of life in Slaver Bay show, or a romantic drama about a Queen with many lovers, or even a bildungsroman about Daenerys growing up. It's framed as a build-up to a dramatic and military conflict with the rest of the show, and like all conflicts, after a certain point, the longer you delay them, the less effective the pay-off (see: Ygritte's death in the latest episode, robbed of much of its power after a season-long break in the story) and the more people will get restless. A large portion of the audience couldn't handle going 30 minutes without seeing Godzilla in the new Godzilla movie, and you expect them to wait 10 years for the authors to pay off a promise they made in the first episode?
So while Daeny's problems may have been interesting in a vacuum ("This man has what I want, but he does not respect me. How can I change that, or turn it to my advantage?" is not an uninteresting story event or character challenge), they're framed by viewers solely in terms of "Will this get Daeny closer to King's Landing?" And just about everything in her story fails that test pretty spectacularly. It's the same problem The Killing ran into, where a lot of people gave up on the show in disgust after the first season failed to answer the marketing tag-line, "Who killed Rosie Larsen?" Never mind that the showrunners wanted to use the murder to explore the grief of a town and the personal lives of the detectives and the corruption of the local blah blah blah, when you write a murder mystery, you best solve the murder or have a really good reason why not--and make it clear in the story that that's the choice you're making.
This problem has only gotten better, in fact, in the last few episodes, since Daeny consciously, audibly said, "I'm not ready to go to King's Landing yet. I need to stay here and do this." Now that her goal is not "make forward progress towards the Iron Throne" but "Regain/maintain control of Slaver's Bay while ruling effectively and justly," the show and the audience can relax their expectations. This has led to some of the best material in that part of the show, like the fallout from Jorah's betrayal, Daeny juggling the affections and egos of her advisors, the elegant and sad short story about Missandre and Greyworm. For now, this is a solved problem. (Eventually Daeny should get back to her quest, or give it up utterly.) But for seasons and seasons of television before this, yes, the show was treading water.
Shit man, Stannis and Bran story line's tread way more water (literally in Stannis' case) with him hanging out on his island brooding and burning or look, Bran's in yet another non-descript snowy forest ... yet, no, of course its Dany who has conquered 4 cities when Stannis couldn't even take one after getting part of his dead brother's army, yeah its her who is treading water. Wait, wut?
Oh, those are bad storylines too. Like I said, almost every major plotline on the show is paced poorly. Bran's is probably the worst of the lot, since his storyline rarely features concrete elements. Stannis at least has the illusion of forward motion, and his scenes provide other entertainment, like characters we like (the Onion Knight) and hate (Melisandre) and thematic statements about how shitty is the state of his family and dominion.
But Daenerys' storyline is not exempt from this complaint just because sometimes people there get violently murdered or whatever.
What I really liked about this episode was how it made you care about people you despised before.
Probably the most emotional scene for me was Thorne fighting Tormund. Especially because up until that point, the show made you hate Thorne and like Tormund (or at least like him more than you liked Thorne). But almost immediately in that fight, you found yourself doing something you didn't think you would do. You were rooting for Thorne.
Or atleast I was.
It helped that Thorne WASN'T all talk. He's an asshole, but he's PROBABLY an asshole you'd rather have on your side than the other one
He's basically an unpleasant drill sergeant. He's an asshole but still trained as a soldier and able to lead in a fight even if he isn't a good candidate for higher officer positions.
I'm also working on a song based off last episode sung to the tune of that one Fabolous song "cuffin season" . Here's a preview
"Them crows keep fightin but I'll fuck em up
Them crows wall hidin' but I'm climbin up
Better yet I'll set a fire for the whole winter
damn it's so cold in the fuckin winter
You was at Castle black all summer
You was at Mole's town all summer
Now it's gettin chilly that's the walkers comin
Hope the wall doesn't fall from em
Whats up thornezilla AKA Crow Hitler
but he saved the whole place
he kicked ass, really
Then sam put Gilly in the crow shelter
Cuz theres a few wildlings that would have so killed her
4 arrows in his back you know Tormund
This N*gga surrounded and he's still fightin no frontin
(and then it ends with)
Hibernating for a thousand years tryin to make it Icey
Summer knights turnin into winter wighties"
What I really liked about this episode was how it made you care about people you despised before.
Probably the most emotional scene for me was Thorne fighting Tormund. Especially because up until that point, the show made you hate Thorne and like Tormund (or at least like him more than you liked Thorne). But almost immediately in that fight, you found yourself doing something you didn't think you would do. You were rooting for Thorne.
Or atleast I was.
It helped that Thorne WASN'T all talk. He's an asshole, but he's PROBABLY an asshole you'd rather have on your side than the other one
He's basically an unpleasant drill sergeant. He's an asshole but still trained as a soldier and able to lead in a fight even if he isn't a good candidate for higher officer positions.
Eh, to be fair he seemed like an awful drill sergeant. He sure was intimidating but what did he really teach anyone? The groups discipline wasn't very great under his leadership.
If anything he seemed like he was waaaay better as a battlefield commander than any drill sergeant, he should be promoted. Or maybe he should be like a small force commander, because clearly he shouldn't be high up lord commander either if you think about his mistakes about preparing defenses.
Grenn was the MVP of the episode (underrated contribution: Getting Slynt the fuck off The Wall. That probably saved lives in some way).
But Thorne was a goddamned pro. Duty over all else for that man. He even tried to impart a little wisdom to Jon, in his own begrudging way.
I'm so glad they gave Thorne that moment, and it contrasted nicely with Slynt. They've both just been skulking around plotting ways to get John Snurrr killed, but when it came down to a fight, Slynt was a coward way out of his depth, and Thorne's an asshole, but one who's not afraid to get stuck in.
What I really liked about this episode was how it made you care about people you despised before.
Probably the most emotional scene for me was Thorne fighting Tormund. Especially because up until that point, the show made you hate Thorne and like Tormund (or at least like him more than you liked Thorne). But almost immediately in that fight, you found yourself doing something you didn't think you would do. You were rooting for Thorne.
Or atleast I was.
It helped that Thorne WASN'T all talk. He's an asshole, but he's PROBABLY an asshole you'd rather have on your side than the other one
I actually like Thorne's little speech to Jon on leadership. He was still a raging asshole, but it gave you a momentary glimpse into this person. He isn't a Janos Slynt, who thus far seems entirely irredeemable. He's a dark, unlikeable character who has spent most of his life training criminals and up-start bastards at an impossible task. He doesn't see Jon Snow as a "main character" like us, he's just another in a long line of up-start bastards who undermine Thorne's leadership. Snow might've been right this time, but Thorne has had to lead, and that means trusting in himself, etc. etc.
It was a compelling moment between the two of them. It wasn't a role reversal like Jaime gets, where I actually start liking the character, but it was a really satisfying glimpse into the humanity of what had previously been a villain and is now one of our hero's companions for the battle.
Edit: And it was exactly what we needed to coax us into rooting for him in the sword fight that followed.
This episode was kind of a slog, although there was some good spectacle. Part of the problem is simply that there aren't enough important characters on the Wall, and we never get enough time there. So when what's his face died or who's that bit it, I can't say I was all choked up. Likewise, the Ygritte plotline has gone nowhere since she last saw Jon, so after a long period of "yep, she's alive" check-ins I'm mostly relieved that that story is over.
One of the chief problems with the show overall is that almost every single individual storyline is egregiously paced, and Jon's Adventures At the Wall is one of the worst examples. And it doesn't help that Jon is just a boring character at this point. (Sam is good, though. All the Sam stuff here was good.)
Anyway, this wasn't a bad episode. Its failings belong to the show as a whole, and GoT is a show I'm increasingly unhappy with, although it continues to be fitfully great (last week's episode was fantastic).
I don't know if it's the characters involved or the actors involved. Cersei, Jamie, Joffrey, Tywin, Obeyrn, Varys, and all the other players at Kings Landing are really fun to watch. I always hate it when the show wanders off to what the dragon lady is doing or the wall. Nothing ever happens and none of the characters are all that compelling.
Nothing ever happens?!
I swear, it just boggles the mind, its like we are watching two different shows. Tons of shit happens with the Night's Watch and Daenerys 'dragon lady' Targaryen.
One is entitled to one's opinions, which I disagree wholeheartedly with that Emilia Clarke hasn't been rocking it, but its a straight up fallacy to claim nothing ever happens. You gotta be one jaded point of view to think that all this is "nothing": 'gifted' to a horse raiding warlord, brother is a dick, flips Drogo to do what she wants, impresses the shit out of Jorah and her maidens, dick bro gets a gold crown the hard way, makes a mistake with a witch by not wanting rape on the shoot n loot menu, gives birth to things of legend, convinces a city to let raiders right through the front door, fucks up wizards and con artists, gets the bad ass real deal old man white cloak, sails closer to her poorly thought out iron sword throne, convinces slavers to make a deal with a dragon (never make a deal with a dragon), gets one of the most bad ass group of infantry in the known world in their entirety, convinces mercenaries she is going to win, smokes a number of slave towns, convinces slaves to win her pyramid town, starts to think of more than just burn it all, learns of Jorah's duplicity, and the dragons just keep getting bigger... and that's the short list.
Come on now, seriously, none of the characters involved with all that, are at all compelling? Puh-leez.
Lots of things have happened to Daenerys. One time she got dragons! One time her dragons got stolen. Very little of her story is directed by her; she's very reactive. Somebody stole my dragons, what do I do? Somebody offered me ships, what do I do?* And many of the events of her storyline have been repetitive and/or provided no real progress on her goals or growth.
Moreover, up until literally last episode, every character in her plotline has been subordinate to her motivations--ie., her advisors want to help her succeed, her soldiers want to help her succeed, her Dothraki want to follow her and join in her success, etc. So when she makes no real progress toward her goal, the narratives of everyone around her become stagnant and boring. Yeah, it was cool when Ser Barrister showed up. Has he changed and grown since he's been with her? Gone through struggles, faced challenges, made hard choices, displayed relatable emotions? Not really. The same goes for everybody around her.
"The dragons keep getting bigger" is not an event, it's just a metaphor for that entire stupid side of the show. I'm sick of watching them do nothing at all, I want to see the resolution of the conflict that's been teased and foreshadowed and prophesied for four years now. 90% of the things on your list is the show treading water when the island of Sweet Dragon Battles is right over there, just swim towards it!
*This is true for most stories; the difference is that that those stories have compelling characters on both sides of the conflict, so instead of "the author put a Quarthful of dicks in this character's way to delay her plot" it feels like "Cersei, whom we know and hate, is framing Tyrion for a murder committed by another character we know and are interested in." Daenerys' conflicts always seem like "man versus author" instead of "man versus man" or "man versus nature."
Yes, really. Come on, our attention spans can't be that short as to be so reductive as to call things like Baristan finding out Jorah is a spy and the fallout from that not a challenge with hard choices or Baristan struggling with Dany not choosing his Paragon option with regards to the Masters and so on.
And worse is the notion that her deciding that part of her taking the Iron Throne is her actually knowing what to do with it once she sits her pretty arse down on it and letting her dragons grow to battle ready status ( which includes being big enough to ride on during flight and kill people ... and for a second there we wondered if Drogon had killed the shepherd's kid after he went all crispy critter on the Masters, but that's not progress from them riding in cages, ok... ) is somehow not intelligent progress towards her goal but instead 'treading water'.
I'll put my attention span up against anybody's. Come meet me in the movie thread and we'll see who likes Bela Tarr more. I watched Treme, motherfucker, come at me!
It's not a "this moves too slow" problem. It's a "these are not the events we're looking for" problem. The plotline is not framed for us as a slice of life in Slaver Bay show, or a romantic drama about a Queen with many lovers, or even a bildungsroman about Daenerys growing up. It's framed as a build-up to a dramatic and military conflict with the rest of the show, and like all conflicts, after a certain point, the longer you delay them, the less effective the pay-off (see: Ygritte's death in the latest episode, robbed of much of its power after a season-long break in the story) and the more people will get restless. A large portion of the audience couldn't handle going 30 minutes without seeing Godzilla in the new Godzilla movie, and you expect them to wait 10 years for the authors to pay off a promise they made in the first episode?
So while Daeny's problems may have been interesting in a vacuum ("This man has what I want, but he does not respect me. How can I change that, or turn it to my advantage?" is not an uninteresting story event or character challenge), they're framed by viewers solely in terms of "Will this get Daeny closer to King's Landing?" And just about everything in her story fails that test pretty spectacularly. It's the same problem The Killing ran into, where a lot of people gave up on the show in disgust after the first season failed to answer the marketing tag-line, "Who killed Rosie Larsen?" Never mind that the showrunners wanted to use the murder to explore the grief of a town and the personal lives of the detectives and the corruption of the local blah blah blah, when you write a murder mystery, you best solve the murder or have a really good reason why not--and make it clear in the story that that's the choice you're making.
This problem has only gotten better, in fact, in the last few episodes, since Daeny consciously, audibly said, "I'm not ready to go to King's Landing yet. I need to stay here and do this." Now that her goal is not "make forward progress towards the Iron Throne" but "Regain/maintain control of Slaver's Bay while ruling effectively and justly," the show and the audience can relax their expectations. This has led to some of the best material in that part of the show, like the fallout from Jorah's betrayal, Daeny juggling the affections and egos of her advisors, the elegant and sad short story about Missandre and Greyworm. For now, this is a solved problem. (Eventually Daeny should get back to her quest, or give it up utterly.) But for seasons and seasons of television before this, yes, the show was treading water.
Shit man, Stannis and Bran story line's tread way more water (literally in Stannis' case) with him hanging out on his island brooding and burning or look, Bran's in yet another non-descript snowy forest ... yet, no, of course its Dany who has conquered 4 cities when Stannis couldn't even take one after getting part of his dead brother's army, yeah its her who is treading water. Wait, wut?
Oh, those are bad storylines too. Like I said, almost every major plotline on the show is paced poorly. Bran's is probably the worst of the lot, since his storyline rarely features concrete elements. Stannis at least has the illusion of forward motion, and his scenes provide other entertainment, like characters we like (the Onion Knight) and hate (Melisandre) and thematic statements about how shitty is the state of his family and dominion.
But Daenerys' storyline is not exempt from this complaint just because sometimes people there get violently murdered or whatever.
That must be the crux of it then, I agree with you. This must be how I am enjoying Dany's side of the planet so much while others couldn't care less - I'm not looking toward some future event and its pay off for Dany, I am enjoying the pay off in Dany's setting right now.
And as far as story lines paying off, she's been the best. Heck, I kinda hope she gives up on Westeros, everyone over there we cheer for as a protagonist keeps getting fucked over in the worst possible ways. Shit, have all the ones we still can cheer for move over to her side of the planet.
I will admit, I even felt a stab of pity for Slynt after he had his breakdown atop the wall and was running for safety afterwards. He's a cock and he'll go right back to being a cock for as long as he survives, but I can't help feeling sorry for someone so sincerely afraid to die like that.
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ComradebotLord of DinosaursHouston, TXRegistered Userregular
I will admit, I even felt a stab of pity for Slynt after he had his breakdown atop the wall and was running for safety afterwards. He's a cock and he'll go right back to being a cock for as long as he survives, but I can't help feeling sorry for someone so sincerely afraid to die like that.
I don't feel any. Guy is a coward of the highest quality whose own douchebaggery got him in that position in the first place. If he wasn't such a balless cock (he's a stem without the stones!) to begin with, he wouldn't have got sent to the Wall by Tyrion and wouldn't have any need to fear for his life from Wildlings.
I'm also working on a song based off last episode sung to the tune of that one Fabolous song "cuffin season" . Here's a preview
"Them crows keep fightin but I'll fuck em up
Them crows wall hidin' but I'm climbin up
Better yet I'll set a fire for the whole winter
damn it's so cold in the fuckin winter
You was at Castle black all summer
You was at Mole's town all summer
Now it's gettin chilly that's the walkers comin
Hope the wall doesn't fall from em
Whats up thornezilla AKA Crow Hitler
but he saved the whole place
he kicked ass, really
Then sam put Gilly in the crow shelter
Cuz theres a few wildlings that would have so killed her
4 arrows in his back you know Tormund
This N*gga surrounded and he's still fightin no frontin
(and then it ends with)
Hibernating for a thousand years tryin to make it Icey
Summer knights turnin into winter wighties"
I will admit, I even felt a stab of pity for Slynt after he had his breakdown atop the wall and was running for safety afterwards. He's a cock and he'll go right back to being a cock for as long as he survives, but I can't help feeling sorry for someone so sincerely afraid to die like that.
I don't feel any. Guy is a coward of the highest quality whose own douchebaggery got him in that position in the first place. If he wasn't such a balless cock (he's a stem without the stones!) to begin with, he wouldn't have got sent to the Wall by Tyrion and wouldn't have any need to fear for his life from Wildlings.
Oh I know, and I'll go right back to feeling that way the second he starts lording it over people again.
I will admit, I even felt a stab of pity for Slynt after he had his breakdown atop the wall and was running for safety afterwards. He's a cock and he'll go right back to being a cock for as long as he survives, but I can't help feeling sorry for someone so sincerely afraid to die like that.
He's no doubt ordered the deaths of many, so you are not really meant to feel for him. He's not like that quivering little kid that shot Ygritte - and that kid had more courage than Slynt! Slynt is just a bully.
Slynt literally murdered a baby (and didn't even ask for an exorbitant sum of money). That is more than enough information for me to have a firm opinion on the man.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
I don't like the term either but dany doesn't have "plot armor" because she's survived anything insane, she has it because they've spent 4 very expensive seasons focusing on her almost totally separate storyline off in a completely different part of the world and it'd be pretty terrible storytelling for her to just randomly die making it all a giant waste of time
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
So basically I just don't expect her to catch Grumpkin flu and die over in essos
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
It's all fun and games until you get to Blighttown.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
it was all set up for Jorah Mormont's majestic return to Westeros, reclaiming claw, kill the white walkers and pimp walk up to Winterfell to see if they want to buy any zombie slaves and then ruling from bear island, or at least riding a bear in his conquest of king's landing. He will be known as the mountain that bears down.
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He doesn't seem THAT important in grand scheme
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
They held the gate.
I guess I'm a sucker for what has been described as "rah-rah let's fight the mans" speeches and valiant stands.
I was moved as intended and enjoyed it.
And now I expect him to somehow die the next episode in the opening credits.
If you say so. I can't watch it again from here, but I remember her being on their side, not from the front, where hiding behind that cover would save him any. If not, then yeah I guess he's safe. But I thought the arrow that killed other guy from from their side because it was sideways through his neck.
It's a square courtyard. They're on adjacent sides. She got him through the neck from an angle while his head was turned.
NNID: Hakkekage
He drew first blood... So far, he has killed more white walkers than the dragons, the fire god, their little helpers and armies combined.
Samwel Tarley is humanities champion.
For it to mean something, it has to be the only reason a character survives. You can't go "Dany has plot armor because she's important to the plot!" and discard all of the in universe reasons she might be alive. Saying she survived the poisoning attempt because of lol plot armor makes no sense, because it's clearly explained why she survived! It was because Jorah became loyal to her.
If she just went to the next stall and accidentally drank some antidote or some shit that would be weird and bullshit. Characters surviving for meaningful in universe reasons can't just be "olol plot armor". Then everything is plot armor and the term has no meaning.
I think it's a weird idea anyway. Even if you can figure out that "hey, arya and dany probably won't die next episode because it would be nonsensical!" doesn't mean they're invincible. A thousand different terrible horrible things could happen to them anyway so you can't really relax anyway.
And yeah the giant tunnel charge was amazing. But I was content with all the fights in this episode which is saying something, because I'm one of those nitpickers who complain about lame slow fights. Everything in this episode looked great, and all of it was relevant. They had to have this showdown, the story demanded it.
Edit: @Vic_Hazard Plot armour, like plot hole, is one of those terms that loses most of its meaning if looked at out of context. Something is a plot hole if the storytelling that's there isn't strong enough to make you not see it. Similarly, a character is saved by plot armour if the story falters and you no longer believe the reasons it gives you why the character isn't killed. Neither term has any inherent meaning, but they describe ways in which gaps in a story show up once the story no longer holds up (as well) for you.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Probably the most emotional scene for me was Thorne fighting Tormund. Especially because up until that point, the show made you hate Thorne and like Tormund (or at least like him more than you liked Thorne). But almost immediately in that fight, you found yourself doing something you didn't think you would do. You were rooting for Thorne.
Or atleast I was.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
I think my reaction was one of internal conflict. I couldn't see a way for them to both survive, so I'm glad they (possibly, since I don't think that Thorne's wound is immediately fatal) found a way to resolve it without either getting murdered.
Exactly, which is why saying that Dany has plot armor makes no sense. In what part of the story does her survival not make sense? She has been surrounded by loyal subjects and fire breathing dragons since S2, she has even gotten free stuff heaped on her for being exotic. She has been in danger sure, but at no point has there been a "whaaaaat how could she not die!". Her chances has only been going up since forever.
If anything Joffrey, Frey and Cersei has (had) plot armor, their survival is a lot more weird than Dany's. I mean Stannis made a failed amphibian assault and presumably had to escape from cavalry on the shore onto rowboats, to row out to ships lying in a bay on fire and he made it without a scratch, without explanations off screen. No one goes "Bullshit Stannis has plot armor!", but people think it's really weird Arya's alive because... Uh...
And if Thorne died I think they'd show it, not show him getting dragged off. At worst he'll die in sickbed next episode so he can still have some dialogue or something.
It helped that Thorne WASN'T all talk. He's an asshole, but he's PROBABLY an asshole you'd rather have on your side than the other one
But Thorne was a goddamned pro. Duty over all else for that man. He even tried to impart a little wisdom to Jon, in his own begrudging way.
I'll put my attention span up against anybody's. Come meet me in the movie thread and we'll see who likes Bela Tarr more. I watched Treme, motherfucker, come at me!
It's not a "this moves too slow" problem. It's a "these are not the events we're looking for" problem. The plotline is not framed for us as a slice of life in Slaver Bay show, or a romantic drama about a Queen with many lovers, or even a bildungsroman about Daenerys growing up. It's framed as a build-up to a dramatic and military conflict with the rest of the show, and like all conflicts, after a certain point, the longer you delay them, the less effective the pay-off (see: Ygritte's death in the latest episode, robbed of much of its power after a season-long break in the story) and the more people will get restless. A large portion of the audience couldn't handle going 30 minutes without seeing Godzilla in the new Godzilla movie, and you expect them to wait 10 years for the authors to pay off a promise they made in the first episode?
So while Daeny's problems may have been interesting in a vacuum ("This man has what I want, but he does not respect me. How can I change that, or turn it to my advantage?" is not an uninteresting story event or character challenge), they're framed by viewers solely in terms of "Will this get Daeny closer to King's Landing?" And just about everything in her story fails that test pretty spectacularly. It's the same problem The Killing ran into, where a lot of people gave up on the show in disgust after the first season failed to answer the marketing tag-line, "Who killed Rosie Larsen?" Never mind that the showrunners wanted to use the murder to explore the grief of a town and the personal lives of the detectives and the corruption of the local blah blah blah, when you write a murder mystery, you best solve the murder or have a really good reason why not--and make it clear in the story that that's the choice you're making.
This problem has only gotten better, in fact, in the last few episodes, since Daeny consciously, audibly said, "I'm not ready to go to King's Landing yet. I need to stay here and do this." Now that her goal is not "make forward progress towards the Iron Throne" but "Regain/maintain control of Slaver's Bay while ruling effectively and justly," the show and the audience can relax their expectations. This has led to some of the best material in that part of the show, like the fallout from Jorah's betrayal, Daeny juggling the affections and egos of her advisors, the elegant and sad short story about Missandre and Greyworm. For now, this is a solved problem. (Eventually Daeny should get back to her quest, or give it up utterly.) But for seasons and seasons of television before this, yes, the show was treading water.
Oh, those are bad storylines too. Like I said, almost every major plotline on the show is paced poorly. Bran's is probably the worst of the lot, since his storyline rarely features concrete elements. Stannis at least has the illusion of forward motion, and his scenes provide other entertainment, like characters we like (the Onion Knight) and hate (Melisandre) and thematic statements about how shitty is the state of his family and dominion.
But Daenerys' storyline is not exempt from this complaint just because sometimes people there get violently murdered or whatever.
He's basically an unpleasant drill sergeant. He's an asshole but still trained as a soldier and able to lead in a fight even if he isn't a good candidate for higher officer positions.
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Heh, if any of them had plot armor, a gamma ray burst wouldn't kill em but make them really strong when they get angry.
I don't understand the hip-hop GOT connection but, there's also this:
edit: gif edited out, thanks guys
Eh, to be fair he seemed like an awful drill sergeant. He sure was intimidating but what did he really teach anyone? The groups discipline wasn't very great under his leadership.
If anything he seemed like he was waaaay better as a battlefield commander than any drill sergeant, he should be promoted. Or maybe he should be like a small force commander, because clearly he shouldn't be high up lord commander either if you think about his mistakes about preparing defenses.
I'm so glad they gave Thorne that moment, and it contrasted nicely with Slynt. They've both just been skulking around plotting ways to get John Snurrr killed, but when it came down to a fight, Slynt was a coward way out of his depth, and Thorne's an asshole, but one who's not afraid to get stuck in.
I actually like Thorne's little speech to Jon on leadership. He was still a raging asshole, but it gave you a momentary glimpse into this person. He isn't a Janos Slynt, who thus far seems entirely irredeemable. He's a dark, unlikeable character who has spent most of his life training criminals and up-start bastards at an impossible task. He doesn't see Jon Snow as a "main character" like us, he's just another in a long line of up-start bastards who undermine Thorne's leadership. Snow might've been right this time, but Thorne has had to lead, and that means trusting in himself, etc. etc.
It was a compelling moment between the two of them. It wasn't a role reversal like Jaime gets, where I actually start liking the character, but it was a really satisfying glimpse into the humanity of what had previously been a villain and is now one of our hero's companions for the battle.
Edit: And it was exactly what we needed to coax us into rooting for him in the sword fight that followed.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
That must be the crux of it then, I agree with you. This must be how I am enjoying Dany's side of the planet so much while others couldn't care less - I'm not looking toward some future event and its pay off for Dany, I am enjoying the pay off in Dany's setting right now.
And as far as story lines paying off, she's been the best. Heck, I kinda hope she gives up on Westeros, everyone over there we cheer for as a protagonist keeps getting fucked over in the worst possible ways. Shit, have all the ones we still can cheer for move over to her side of the planet.
I don't feel any. Guy is a coward of the highest quality whose own douchebaggery got him in that position in the first place. If he wasn't such a balless cock (he's a stem without the stones!) to begin with, he wouldn't have got sent to the Wall by Tyrion and wouldn't have any need to fear for his life from Wildlings.
You should remove the gif from the post you quoted, the OP got infracted for image size.
Oh I know, and I'll go right back to feeling that way the second he starts lording it over people again.
Theon Greyjoy. That guy just survives everything!
there's that reek guy that can play a convincing theon greyjoy character
He's no doubt ordered the deaths of many, so you are not really meant to feel for him. He's not like that quivering little kid that shot Ygritte - and that kid had more courage than Slynt! Slynt is just a bully.
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Same hair color and everything.