"Rebellion" is a strong word for it. They didn't want to leave the US, they just wanted to subdivide parts of Northern California and Southern Oregon into a new state.
That's still sort of a thing among a certain segment of the population, isn't it?
Not really, although Wikipedia tells me that a number of Northern Californian counties have recently revived the idea.
Eh, one of the hard core wing nuts on one of the car forums I go to was really, really into Jefferson as a state.
Eh. Most people living in the area realize it's crazy, but honestly with the population dense voting blocks in California literally not giving a shit about anyone north or east of Sacramento I can understand the frustration. I recall when I was a little kid, they would pump our local water to Los Angeles then charge us a water-transfer fee on our bill as though they were doing us a favor. It's pretty balls awful living as a native of the state and being essentially shit on constantly by population dense sprawling areas of green lawns and people with enough money to relocate to a trendy state with wealth that could give two fucks about anything in the state except the water.
Edit: I mean, North and South Dakota, Wyoming... Plenty of states have smaller populations than some of the proposed borders of Jefferson. So while ridiculous as a notion, it's understandable a million or so people feel a little left out when it comes to representation.
Edit2: Hell, Chico + Redding + Medford alone is almost 300,000... that's a lot of people who basically get a big "shrug" from their states that may be listened to in a less populous state. (Wyoming has a population of 550,000)
"Rebellion" is a strong word for it. They didn't want to leave the US, they just wanted to subdivide parts of Northern California and Southern Oregon into a new state.
That's still sort of a thing among a certain segment of the population, isn't it?
Not really, although Wikipedia tells me that a number of Northern Californian counties have recently revived the idea.
Eh, one of the hard core wing nuts on one of the car forums I go to was really, really into Jefferson as a state.
Eh. Most people living in the area realize it's crazy, but honestly with the population dense voting blocks in California literally not giving a shit about anyone north or east of Sacramento I can understand the frustration. I recall when I was a little kid, they would pump our local water to Los Angeles then charge us a water-transfer fee on our bill as though they were doing us a favor. It's pretty balls awful living as a native of the state and being essentially shit on constantly by population dense sprawling areas of green lawns and people with enough money to relocate to a trendy state with wealth that could give two fucks about anything in the state except the water.
Edit: I mean, North and South Dakota, Wyoming... Plenty of states have smaller populations than some of the proposed borders of Jefferson. So while ridiculous as a notion, it's understandable a million or so people feel a little left out when it comes to representation.
Edit2: Hell, Chico + Redding + Medford alone is almost 300,000... that's a lot of people who basically get a big "shrug" from their states that may be listened to in a less populous state.
Difficulty of actually doing it aside, are there any solid theoretical reasons why it would be a bad idea? There obviously needs to be some limit on dividing up states, but California seems huge enough to be above that limit.
"Rebellion" is a strong word for it. They didn't want to leave the US, they just wanted to subdivide parts of Northern California and Southern Oregon into a new state.
That's still sort of a thing among a certain segment of the population, isn't it?
Not really, although Wikipedia tells me that a number of Northern Californian counties have recently revived the idea.
Eh, one of the hard core wing nuts on one of the car forums I go to was really, really into Jefferson as a state.
Eh. Most people living in the area realize it's crazy, but honestly with the population dense voting blocks in California literally not giving a shit about anyone north or east of Sacramento I can understand the frustration. I recall when I was a little kid, they would pump our local water to Los Angeles then charge us a water-transfer fee on our bill as though they were doing us a favor. It's pretty balls awful living as a native of the state and being essentially shit on constantly by population dense sprawling areas of green lawns and people with enough money to relocate to a trendy state with wealth that could give two fucks about anything in the state except the water.
Edit: I mean, North and South Dakota, Wyoming... Plenty of states have smaller populations than some of the proposed borders of Jefferson. So while ridiculous as a notion, it's understandable a million or so people feel a little left out when it comes to representation.
Edit2: Hell, Chico + Redding + Medford alone is almost 300,000... that's a lot of people who basically get a big "shrug" from their states that may be listened to in a less populous state.
Difficulty of actually doing it aside, are there any solid theoretical reasons why it would be a bad idea? There obviously needs to be some limit on dividing up states, but California seems huge enough to be above that limit.
It's hard to get a reasonable opinion really. The rural areas think it wont happen because "They need to steal our water and resources" which isn't entirely wrong. The populous areas think it's just some hick bullshit that poor people complain about.
I am from Chico originally, I think it should be stated so you can take my opinion as it is... but the attitudes of many people who live in the larger cities in California is total garbage with regard to how many people actually exist in the rest of the state. If you drive up/down i5 or 99 you will literally always be an exit or two from a city of 50,000+ people that you may or may not have ever heard of. Many of those cities are more developed and diverse than the most populous and diverse cities in other states. California is just a twisted beast held together with blood rituals and an ancient spells scrawled on flayed skin they use as the constitution and proposition system.
Edit: With the way taxes and such are collected and distributed in California. I don't know that it would be a net-loss for "Jeffers". Many cities run on their own budgets, albeit poorly with little or no help from the state. In fact with the way the property taxes are fixed in some areas, they would be able to adjust their income by quite a bit if not tied to the proposition funding system for things like education.
It can not be overstated how absolutely fucked and shitty the proposition system is and how it makes entire regions of the state powerless to self-govern based on population centers.
"Rebellion" is a strong word for it. They didn't want to leave the US, they just wanted to subdivide parts of Northern California and Southern Oregon into a new state.
That's still sort of a thing among a certain segment of the population, isn't it?
Not really, although Wikipedia tells me that a number of Northern Californian counties have recently revived the idea.
Eh, one of the hard core wing nuts on one of the car forums I go to was really, really into Jefferson as a state.
Eh. Most people living in the area realize it's crazy, but honestly with the population dense voting blocks in California literally not giving a shit about anyone north or east of Sacramento I can understand the frustration. I recall when I was a little kid, they would pump our local water to Los Angeles then charge us a water-transfer fee on our bill as though they were doing us a favor. It's pretty balls awful living as a native of the state and being essentially shit on constantly by population dense sprawling areas of green lawns and people with enough money to relocate to a trendy state with wealth that could give two fucks about anything in the state except the water.
Edit: I mean, North and South Dakota, Wyoming... Plenty of states have smaller populations than some of the proposed borders of Jefferson. So while ridiculous as a notion, it's understandable a million or so people feel a little left out when it comes to representation.
Edit2: Hell, Chico + Redding + Medford alone is almost 300,000... that's a lot of people who basically get a big "shrug" from their states that may be listened to in a less populous state.
Difficulty of actually doing it aside, are there any solid theoretical reasons why it would be a bad idea? There obviously needs to be some limit on dividing up states, but California seems huge enough to be above that limit.
It's unconstitutional.
Also might run into tax base problems- a lot of rural counties get a net inflow of state tax money, which they'd lose by splitting off.
West Virginia and Maine both did it. I've heard questions about the legality / constitutionality of the West Virginia split and subsequent admission into the union, but I seriously doubt even if was not done legally that it would somehow be undone at this point.
West Virginia and Maine both did it. I've heard questions about the legality / constitutionality of the West Virginia split and subsequent admission into the union, but I seriously doubt even if was not done legally that it would somehow be undone at this point.
I'd actually be interested in seeing how it would play out. I've always sort of been apprehensive about the rural population in other states complaining about those crazy city liberals. In the case of California the rural communities rival large cities in other states. Some of them are very rich agriculturally. Especially if you count Humboldt county. I'd be a lot happier in Jefferstonia than the Rural Waste Holdings of California.
Jefferson people aren't really much like Bundy militia people. Most of those I know are very liberal. I don't think you'd see them handing Muir Woods or Yosemite over to hard working 'murican ranchers.
When Oregon was granted statehood in 1859, it was the only state in the Union admitted with a constitution that forbade black people from living, working, or owning property there. It was illegal for black people even to move to the state until 1926.
I think there are about 4 US territories I'd like to get full statehood before we start splitting the states to make more.
To some extent yes, but CA is so huge and diverse both population and terrain-wise it's a bit of an impossible proposition to govern properly, so I understand the frustration. It's similar to places like PA and NY where the rest of the state has little to do with their major metro area, and you could likely split the two and both sides would leave happy.
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They think they would... But in reality it is harder than that. Living in Central Illinois, Chicago has always been the powerhouse of the state. But the reality is that the tax base of both halves would die without the other, as we help provide them with food and they help maintain our infrastructure and attract talent.
I think there are about 4 US territories I'd like to get full statehood before we start splitting the states to make more.
Eh. Puerto Rico is the only "territory" that has enough people to be viable state.
Like, yeah, American Samoa gets a shitty deal but they only have 55k people...even if you combine it with the other Pacific territories and make a giant franken-state, you end up with less than 300k people.
I think there are about 4 US territories I'd like to get full statehood before we start splitting the states to make more.
To some extent yes, but CA is so huge and diverse both population and terrain-wise it's a bit of an impossible proposition to govern properly, so I understand the frustration. It's similar to places like PA and NY where the rest of the state has little to do with their major metro area, and you could likely split the two and both sides would leave happy.
In theory, I would t have an issue, so long as there was a minimum population requirement (enough for a given number of representatives, maybe). In practice, it would be a complete clusterfuck. I don't know what would happen to the rest of NY if the port revenue was suddenly all funneled into a new state consisting of the city and island. In California, any split is going to impact the Colorado River water agreements. Then you get into situations like public utilities, prison populations and whatnot. It would be absolute hell.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I think there are about 4 US territories I'd like to get full statehood before we start splitting the states to make more.
Eh. Puerto Rico is the only "territory" that has enough people to be viable state.
Like, yeah, American Samoa gets a shitty deal but they only have 55k people...even if you combine it with the other Pacific territories and make a giant franken-state, you end up with less than 300k people.
There's no population requirement for statehood. There's a lot more to statehood than gaining representatives in the House.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
I think there are about 4 US territories I'd like to get full statehood before we start splitting the states to make more.
Eh. Puerto Rico is the only "territory" that has enough people to be viable state.
Like, yeah, American Samoa gets a shitty deal but they only have 55k people...even if you combine it with the other Pacific territories and make a giant franken-state, you end up with less than 300k people.
There's no population requirement for statehood. There's a lot more to statehood than gaining representatives in the House.
Also, those 300k people are not being represented at all, and should be. Even if that means lumping the Pacific territories as officially part of Hawaii in jurisdiction, at least that would mean they have a voice.
Also, DC should gain statehood and representation. It's population (~600k) is almost that of North Dakota or Alaska ( both are at ~700k).
Here in Canada, our least populous province (PEI) literally has 1% of the population of our most populous province (Ontario), 140,000 vs. 14 million. It mostly works out.
I also think that lack of representation is a worse problem than overrepresentation.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
US Territories vote in the primaries, I just learned this yesterday
But they have no electoral votes so in the real election they have no voice, yet get fucked by US policy all the same. And we overthrew a government under the auspice of taxation without representation...
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Unfortunately any addition of states to the union is going to be a tough sell to the people in power right now. Do you honestly think that the Republicans would be on board with adding D.C. and a nearly guaranteed 2 Democratic Senators and 1 Democratic Representative? I don't think Puerto Rico would be very likely to vote Republican either, though I haven't looked into it closely.
I'm not even sure the people of Puerto Rico want to be a state. It's hard to tell, though, because every time they have a referendum they always give three options (statehood, status quo or independence) and none of those options gain a majority.
Basically something else to add to the list of things to wait until the Dems have strong control of Congress.
The DC thing though is just pure hypocrisy, though, the party of small government that allegedly hates Washington all too willing to have congress directly override local initiatives of all kinds and stick their nose in the city's business.
I'm not even sure the people of Puerto Rico want to be a state. It's hard to tell, though, because every time they have a referendum they always give three options (statehood, status quo or independence) and none of those options gain a majority.
Eh that vote was weirdly confusing, though. 61.15% of those who marked a preference said statehood, but 24% of people didn't mark anything at all. If I am doing the math correctly, that means 46.47% of voters desired statehood and presumably the 24% of people that didn't mark anything did not like any of the choices given (none of which was the status quo apparently). It was also a two part question, and it wasn't clear that people who voted for the status quo in the first question (46% of voters) should even select an answer to the second.
Whoever chose the wording for the choices did not do a good job of making it clear what each vote really meant (well the first one was pretty clear, it was the second part that I think causes problems). It does at least demonstrate that the voters in Puerto Rico are increasingly dissatisfied with the status quo, but I don't think majority support for statehood has yet been demonstrated (really close though, and it's possible that majority support does exist).
Basically something else to add to the list of things to wait until the Dems have strong control of Congress.
The DC thing though is just pure hypocrisy, though, the party of small government that allegedly hates Washington all too willing to have congress directly override local initiatives of all kinds and stick their nose in the city's business.
The federal part of DC should just be the government facilities/monuments and the capitol itself. The actual city should be spun off into its own state. Its population if far more than sufficient to justify its statehood. In a few decades there is a strong chance it will have a larger population than some of the western states.
Unfortunately any addition of states to the union is going to be a tough sell to the people in power right now. Do you honestly think that the Republicans would be on board with adding D.C. and a nearly guaranteed 2 Democratic Senators and 1 Democratic Representative? I don't think Puerto Rico would be very likely to vote Republican either, though I haven't looked into it closely.
Adding new states is always going to be a tough sell, because neither party is willing to give the other more senators and reps. The easiest solution for DC would probably be to allow residents to claim residency in the neighboring state of their choice, if they so desired.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Has anybody been charged with anything over the fucking car bomb trap situation?
Because I'm still not over that. That's just so much holy shit.
One (or more?) of the already arrested guys had an additional charge brought against him once they investigated the area. It had a minimum jail time of (I'm gonna guess) 20 years which made people think it was something to do with explosives. this is just off the top of my head though.
I... Is that real? I mean, something doesn't get put on an official license plate unless it's something you're meant to be proud of, right? Or do the people who run the DMV in DC have no oversight at all and hate the government?
GNU Terry Pratchett
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I... Is that real? I mean, something doesn't get put on an official license plate unless it's something you're meant to be proud of, right? Or do the people who run the DMV in DC have no oversight at all and hate the government?
Has anybody been charged with anything over the fucking car bomb trap situation?
Because I'm still not over that. That's just so much holy shit.
Apparently there are a fresh round of arrests and indictments pending. It'll likely be a few weeks before we see those charges, but we will see those charges.
Now for some good news! The FBI have finished processing the scene, and the Malheur refuge has once again been turned over to the control of the U.S Fish and wildlife service. Hopefully the cleanup won't take terribly long.
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Eh. Most people living in the area realize it's crazy, but honestly with the population dense voting blocks in California literally not giving a shit about anyone north or east of Sacramento I can understand the frustration. I recall when I was a little kid, they would pump our local water to Los Angeles then charge us a water-transfer fee on our bill as though they were doing us a favor. It's pretty balls awful living as a native of the state and being essentially shit on constantly by population dense sprawling areas of green lawns and people with enough money to relocate to a trendy state with wealth that could give two fucks about anything in the state except the water.
Edit: I mean, North and South Dakota, Wyoming... Plenty of states have smaller populations than some of the proposed borders of Jefferson. So while ridiculous as a notion, it's understandable a million or so people feel a little left out when it comes to representation.
Edit2: Hell, Chico + Redding + Medford alone is almost 300,000... that's a lot of people who basically get a big "shrug" from their states that may be listened to in a less populous state. (Wyoming has a population of 550,000)
Difficulty of actually doing it aside, are there any solid theoretical reasons why it would be a bad idea? There obviously needs to be some limit on dividing up states, but California seems huge enough to be above that limit.
It's hard to get a reasonable opinion really. The rural areas think it wont happen because "They need to steal our water and resources" which isn't entirely wrong. The populous areas think it's just some hick bullshit that poor people complain about.
I am from Chico originally, I think it should be stated so you can take my opinion as it is... but the attitudes of many people who live in the larger cities in California is total garbage with regard to how many people actually exist in the rest of the state. If you drive up/down i5 or 99 you will literally always be an exit or two from a city of 50,000+ people that you may or may not have ever heard of. Many of those cities are more developed and diverse than the most populous and diverse cities in other states. California is just a twisted beast held together with blood rituals and an ancient spells scrawled on flayed skin they use as the constitution and proposition system.
Edit: With the way taxes and such are collected and distributed in California. I don't know that it would be a net-loss for "Jeffers". Many cities run on their own budgets, albeit poorly with little or no help from the state. In fact with the way the property taxes are fixed in some areas, they would be able to adjust their income by quite a bit if not tied to the proposition funding system for things like education.
It can not be overstated how absolutely fucked and shitty the proposition system is and how it makes entire regions of the state powerless to self-govern based on population centers.
It's unconstitutional.
Also might run into tax base problems- a lot of rural counties get a net inflow of state tax money, which they'd lose by splitting off.
I'd actually be interested in seeing how it would play out. I've always sort of been apprehensive about the rural population in other states complaining about those crazy city liberals. In the case of California the rural communities rival large cities in other states. Some of them are very rich agriculturally. Especially if you count Humboldt county. I'd be a lot happier in Jefferstonia than the Rural Waste Holdings of California.
Jefferson people aren't really much like Bundy militia people. Most of those I know are very liberal. I don't think you'd see them handing Muir Woods or Yosemite over to hard working 'murican ranchers.
- John Stuart Mill
At the time they were taking a pro union stance though I feel like that's a unique circumstance
http://gizmodo.com/oregon-was-founded-as-a-racist-utopia-1539567040
There's actually a clause for it. Congress and all involved states must approve it.
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To some extent yes, but CA is so huge and diverse both population and terrain-wise it's a bit of an impossible proposition to govern properly, so I understand the frustration. It's similar to places like PA and NY where the rest of the state has little to do with their major metro area, and you could likely split the two and both sides would leave happy.
Eh. Puerto Rico is the only "territory" that has enough people to be viable state.
Like, yeah, American Samoa gets a shitty deal but they only have 55k people...even if you combine it with the other Pacific territories and make a giant franken-state, you end up with less than 300k people.
In theory, I would t have an issue, so long as there was a minimum population requirement (enough for a given number of representatives, maybe). In practice, it would be a complete clusterfuck. I don't know what would happen to the rest of NY if the port revenue was suddenly all funneled into a new state consisting of the city and island. In California, any split is going to impact the Colorado River water agreements. Then you get into situations like public utilities, prison populations and whatnot. It would be absolute hell.
- John Stuart Mill
Also, those 300k people are not being represented at all, and should be. Even if that means lumping the Pacific territories as officially part of Hawaii in jurisdiction, at least that would mean they have a voice.
Also, DC should gain statehood and representation. It's population (~600k) is almost that of North Dakota or Alaska ( both are at ~700k).
I also think that lack of representation is a worse problem than overrepresentation.
But they have no electoral votes so in the real election they have no voice, yet get fucked by US policy all the same. And we overthrew a government under the auspice of taxation without representation...
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I'm not even sure the people of Puerto Rico want to be a state. It's hard to tell, though, because every time they have a referendum they always give three options (statehood, status quo or independence) and none of those options gain a majority.
The DC thing though is just pure hypocrisy, though, the party of small government that allegedly hates Washington all too willing to have congress directly override local initiatives of all kinds and stick their nose in the city's business.
Because I'm still not over that. That's just so much holy shit.
negative
60% in favor of statehood as of 2012
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statehood_movement_in_Puerto_Rico#2012_statehood_vote
Whoever chose the wording for the choices did not do a good job of making it clear what each vote really meant (well the first one was pretty clear, it was the second part that I think causes problems). It does at least demonstrate that the voters in Puerto Rico are increasingly dissatisfied with the status quo, but I don't think majority support for statehood has yet been demonstrated (really close though, and it's possible that majority support does exist).
The federal part of DC should just be the government facilities/monuments and the capitol itself. The actual city should be spun off into its own state. Its population if far more than sufficient to justify its statehood. In a few decades there is a strong chance it will have a larger population than some of the western states.
Adding new states is always going to be a tough sell, because neither party is willing to give the other more senators and reps. The easiest solution for DC would probably be to allow residents to claim residency in the neighboring state of their choice, if they so desired.
- John Stuart Mill
I... Is that real? I mean, something doesn't get put on an official license plate unless it's something you're meant to be proud of, right? Or do the people who run the DMV in DC have no oversight at all and hate the government?
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that is what DC tags say, yes.
Apparently there are a fresh round of arrests and indictments pending. It'll likely be a few weeks before we see those charges, but we will see those charges.
Now for some good news! The FBI have finished processing the scene, and the Malheur refuge has once again been turned over to the control of the U.S Fish and wildlife service. Hopefully the cleanup won't take terribly long.
Meanwhile, a crack legal team is assembling to defend the arrestees...
How can they possibly fail?
No, really.
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