I do wonder how people would've reacted to the Tyrion character in the show if he was as hideously disfigured as he was in the books. Like it or not, we judge based upon appearances, and the Tyrion in the books is so ugly that people cringe when they look at him (doubly so after his injury in the Battle of the Blackwater, which cut off his nose and gashed his face).
Keep in mind for the show Brienne of Tarth's actress is a model in real life. This show is full of very pretty actresses. IIRC Ygritte isn't supposed to be that hot either, she's played by
Yeah, they couldn't make Tyrion and Brienne actually ugly because TV. Can't have people's escapist fantasies display ugly people and remind them they exist in real life. =P
Really though, Dinklage and Christie are so great at playing the characters that it no longer matters. They've made the characters into something special for the show.
...I'm not super sure how in-depth we're allowed to go with stuff here. My post deals with things more explicitly taken from the books. These are also events that happened in the show, and none are covered under the OP's spoiler policy, but I don't want to be a dick, so - be forewarned. I'll spoiler my post just in case.
Like, Tywin was not an innately evil man, not even really an innately cruel man, at least in the sense of taking any pleasure from it (not that he was an innately good man, either).
Not an evil man, huh? I guess you've forgotten about Tysha (book, television), not to mention the Red Wedding.
Tywin was an awful ratfuck of a person. He was an evil man, he was a cruel man. Just because he showed some decency to a servant girl doesn't absolve him of sin.
Tywin is a man who does the wrong things for the right reasons. The Red Wedding was in the interest of his family.
Ordering 100 soldiers to gang rape your son's wife because she was lowborn is "the wrong thing for the right reason"?
The Red Wedding was seen as a heinous betrayal by basically everyone not a Lannister or a Frey - and by at least one Lannister.
Tywin was acting well within the moral bounds of his setting, on a scale of 1 to 10 from good to evil he's probably a 6, with his prideful nature and shitty parenting. He thought the war was stupid but he was in a position where he had to fight it, the red wedding probably saved lives (or would have if everything didn't continue to go to shit).
Not sure I agree with the "moral bounds of the setting" thing. Authorial intent seems to be basically that everyone not acting in the best interest of the land gets their comeuppance. If you cling to honor, or love, or personal gain, or anything else - horrible things happen. (yes, horrible things happen to everyone, but it tends to be specific actions wherein characters abandon their duty to the land that sets them on the path to ruin) And, as mentioned before, the Red Wedding is seen as pretty heinous but everybody who knows about it (and didn't personally gain from it).
I mean if you want to get super technical, surrendering would have been the path to saving the most lives. But Tywin played towards personal (and legacy) gain over all else. So framing it as the lesser evil is disingenuous - he has a long history of ordering heinous acts for personal gain (the rape and murder of Elia Martell and her children, the rape of Tysha, the Red Wedding, etc). There were alternatives to repeatedly ordering atrocities, he just doesn't give a shit as long as it isn't his family that suffers.
Tywin could have
given Ned's bones back, and Sansa, and given the North independence and a comical sack of gold for each northern lord as reparations and not had to deal with a war at all
They could worry about bringing the north back into the fold in a few decades, but part of Tywin's character isn't just choosing the most logical path, he has to make his enemies pay
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fRAWRstThe Seas CallThe Mad AnswerRegistered Userregular
...I'm not super sure how in-depth we're allowed to go with stuff here. My post deals with things more explicitly taken from the books. These are also events that happened in the show, and none are covered under the OP's spoiler policy, but I don't want to be a dick, so - be forewarned. I'll spoiler my post just in case.
Like, Tywin was not an innately evil man, not even really an innately cruel man, at least in the sense of taking any pleasure from it (not that he was an innately good man, either).
Not an evil man, huh? I guess you've forgotten about Tysha (book, television), not to mention the Red Wedding.
Tywin was an awful ratfuck of a person. He was an evil man, he was a cruel man. Just because he showed some decency to a servant girl doesn't absolve him of sin.
Tywin is a man who does the wrong things for the right reasons. The Red Wedding was in the interest of his family.
Ordering 100 soldiers to gang rape your son's wife because she was lowborn is "the wrong thing for the right reason"?
The Red Wedding was seen as a heinous betrayal by basically everyone not a Lannister or a Frey - and by at least one Lannister.
Tywin was acting well within the moral bounds of his setting, on a scale of 1 to 10 from good to evil he's probably a 6, with his prideful nature and shitty parenting. He thought the war was stupid but he was in a position where he had to fight it, the red wedding probably saved lives (or would have if everything didn't continue to go to shit).
Not sure I agree with the "moral bounds of the setting" thing. Authorial intent seems to be basically that everyone not acting in the best interest of the land gets their comeuppance. If you cling to honor, or love, or personal gain, or anything else - horrible things happen. (yes, horrible things happen to everyone, but it tends to be specific actions wherein characters abandon their duty to the land that sets them on the path to ruin) And, as mentioned before, the Red Wedding is seen as pretty heinous but everybody who knows about it (and didn't personally gain from it).
I mean if you want to get super technical, surrendering would have been the path to saving the most lives. But Tywin played towards personal (and legacy) gain over all else. So framing it as the lesser evil is disingenuous - he has a long history of ordering heinous acts for personal gain (the rape and murder of Elia Martell and her children, the rape of Tysha, the Red Wedding, etc). There were alternatives to repeatedly ordering atrocities, he just doesn't give a shit as long as it isn't his family that suffers.
Tywin could have
given Ned's bones back, and Sansa, and given the North independence and a comical sack of gold for each northern lord as reparations and not had to deal with a war at all
They could worry about bringing the north back into the fold in a few decades, but part of Tywin's character isn't just choosing the most logical path, he has to make his enemies pay
very interesting
Tywin was of a mind that if any kingdom was independent, other kingdoms would become independent, thus destroying all he worked for to get a lannister family member on the throne
if he let Robb defy him and walk away, others would follow and chaos would ensure. The Northern Lords werent in it for the gold, they were in it for their staunch loyalty to Ned and the Starks. If Robb accepted a peace term if a bribery sense, the northern lords would lose all respect and more chaos would ensue.
The make his enemies pay is very true, he told Joffrey the same thing. When your enemies defy you, you must serve them fire and steel. When they bend the knee, you must help them back up to their graces, or else no one would ever bend the knee to you again.
Very interesting stuff to theorize about. Im of the mind that once Ned was murdered, the North had to go to war, with peace being a defeat in the eyes of every non-stark northern lord
I think part of Tyrion's ugliness is probably overstated because it's almost always from his perspective (pre-Blackwater) and he has deep self-loathing.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I think part of Tyrion's ugliness is probably overstated because it's almost always from his perspective (pre-Blackwater) and he has deep self-loathing.
And based on how others describe him. The mismatched eyes probably cause no shortage of pearl-clutching, and describing a dwarf as "grostesque," in general, is probably a commin choice of words in this world; and doesn't necessarily a remark on his facial symmetry.
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
I don't think those illustrations are too far off of the actors playing Ygritte or Brienne at all... They're both beautiful, natch, but the pics aren't exactly of hideous creatures.
I don't think those illustrations are too far off of the actors playing Ygritte or Brienne at all... They're both beautiful, natch, but the pics aren't exactly of hideous creatures.
In the case of Brienne it is going to be hard to find an actress that embodies every last one of her physical qualities and to then go "hey we're going to make you look like Charlize Theron in Monster" is a rough sell to someone who may be up and coming.
Rose Leslie on the other hand literally knows boner magic and I would have cast her in every unfilled female role in the show if she had walked into my office for an audition.
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In the Game of Thrones world, being a dwarf makes you hideously ugly. Being a tall muscular woman makes you a freak, full stop. Whether or not they actually have dreamy eyes and a symmetrical face and nice skin is a moot consideration, because they're completely in violation of what their society thinks they're supposed to look like.
I mean, as a pretty recent example less than 100 years ago women would sooner walk around half blind than be caught wearing glasses outside, it was seen as completely disqualifying, unfeminine and embarrassing. The first corrective contact lenses sold were for the daughters of rich men, who paid a minor fortune so they didn't need to wear glasses. And that's just something you wear.
That we find certain actors attractive even while the world of Westeros finds them hideous is more a feature than a bug, I think.
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I think part of Tyrion's ugliness is probably overstated because it's almost always from his perspective (pre-Blackwater) and he has deep self-loathing.
The mismatched eyes probably cause no shortage of pearl-clutching
I don't know. David Bowie and Mila Kunis aren't that repulsive.
christ my great grandma used to get beaten and tied up in a closet for being left handed (make america great again)
They don't call it "sinister" for nothing.
In many societies toilet paper wasn't commonly available until much more recently than you'd think and the usual way of cleaning up was to wet a hand and wipe. This was usually done with the left hand. Even after toilet paper became available many of those societies didn't let go of the stigma of the left hand being the one that cleans up poop. It's a very bad idea in the ones not yet past that to hand anything to someone with your left hand.
...I'm not super sure how in-depth we're allowed to go with stuff here. My post deals with things more explicitly taken from the books. These are also events that happened in the show, and none are covered under the OP's spoiler policy, but I don't want to be a dick, so - be forewarned. I'll spoiler my post just in case.
Like, Tywin was not an innately evil man, not even really an innately cruel man, at least in the sense of taking any pleasure from it (not that he was an innately good man, either).
Not an evil man, huh? I guess you've forgotten about Tysha (book, television), not to mention the Red Wedding.
Tywin was an awful ratfuck of a person. He was an evil man, he was a cruel man. Just because he showed some decency to a servant girl doesn't absolve him of sin.
Tywin is a man who does the wrong things for the right reasons. The Red Wedding was in the interest of his family.
Ordering 100 soldiers to gang rape your son's wife because she was lowborn is "the wrong thing for the right reason"?
The Red Wedding was seen as a heinous betrayal by basically everyone not a Lannister or a Frey - and by at least one Lannister.
Tywin was acting well within the moral bounds of his setting, on a scale of 1 to 10 from good to evil he's probably a 6, with his prideful nature and shitty parenting. He thought the war was stupid but he was in a position where he had to fight it, the red wedding probably saved lives (or would have if everything didn't continue to go to shit).
Not sure I agree with the "moral bounds of the setting" thing. Authorial intent seems to be basically that everyone not acting in the best interest of the land gets their comeuppance. If you cling to honor, or love, or personal gain, or anything else - horrible things happen. (yes, horrible things happen to everyone, but it tends to be specific actions wherein characters abandon their duty to the land that sets them on the path to ruin) And, as mentioned before, the Red Wedding is seen as pretty heinous but everybody who knows about it (and didn't personally gain from it).
I mean if you want to get super technical, surrendering would have been the path to saving the most lives. But Tywin played towards personal (and legacy) gain over all else. So framing it as the lesser evil is disingenuous - he has a long history of ordering heinous acts for personal gain (the rape and murder of Elia Martell and her children, the rape of Tysha, the Red Wedding, etc). There were alternatives to repeatedly ordering atrocities, he just doesn't give a shit as long as it isn't his family that suffers.
Tywin could have
given Ned's bones back, and Sansa, and given the North independence and a comical sack of gold for each northern lord as reparations and not had to deal with a war at all
They could worry about bringing the north back into the fold in a few decades, but part of Tywin's character isn't just choosing the most logical path, he has to make his enemies pay
Small aside
Tyrion had already given Ned's bones back before Tywin ever got to king's landing, I think they reached riverrun shortly before the ironborn took the north, and were sent back to the north with some northern dude, and it's currently unknown whether the bones made it to winterfell or not.
Tywin is Neutral Evil. He cares about himself more than anything. If the law can be used to enrich himself, than he will use it. If breaking the law will help, then that's cool to. Even his family is more about his "legacy" than any actual care he has for them. His greatest sin is Ambition, and his soul would end up in Gehenna.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Tywin is Neutral Evil. He cares about himself more than anything. If the law can be used to enrich himself, than he will use it. If breaking the law will help, then that's cool to. Even his family is more about his "legacy" than any actual care he has for them. His greatest sin is Ambition, and his soul would end up in Gehenna.
Counterpoint: Purple Wedding spoilers
When Joffrey starts to choke, Cersei and Jamie run to his side and hold him as he dies, then Cersei goes full ragefit and immediately orders Tyrion's arrest.
Tywin, on the other hand, runs to Tommen, covers his eyes and stays by his side throughout the chaos, protecting him.
Tywin is evil, but he's also complicated, and he's capable of caring deeply for people. In the books, that's reflected in the love he had for his wife. In the show, it's in little moments like the one above.
I hope they have an actual reason for bringing Lyanna Mormont back that goes beyond "Hey guys, remember that character you liked? We shoe-horned her back in because you liked her so much."
With just 13 episodes left to wrap up the series, I'd appreciate it if they kept the pandering to a minimum next season.
Tywin is Neutral Evil. He cares about himself more than anything. If the law can be used to enrich himself, than he will use it. If breaking the law will help, then that's cool to. Even his family is more about his "legacy" than any actual care he has for them. His greatest sin is Ambition, and his soul would end up in Gehenna.
Counterpoint: Purple Wedding spoilers
When Joffrey starts to choke, Cersei and Jamie run to his side and hold him as he dies, then Cersei goes full ragefit and immediately orders Tyrion's arrest.
Tywin, on the other hand, runs to Tommen, covers his eyes and stays by his side throughout the chaos, protecting him.
Tywin is evil, but he's also complicated, and he's capable of caring deeply for people. In the books, that's reflected in the love he had for his wife. In the show, it's in little moments like the one above.
Tywin also
realized that Tommen had just become king.
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
I hope they have an actual reason for bringing Lyanna Mormont back that goes beyond "Hey guys, remember that character you liked? We shoe-horned her back in because you liked her so much."
With just 13 episodes left to wrap up the series, I'd appreciate it if they kept the pandering to a minimum next season.
I hope they have an actual reason for bringing Lyanna Mormont back that goes beyond "Hey guys, remember that character you liked? We shoe-horned her back in because you liked her so much."
With just 13 episodes left to wrap up the series, I'd appreciate it if they kept the pandering to a minimum next season.
Is there any reason why she wouldn't be back?
Because dragons are expensive, and there aren't many wolves left to kill.
Roommate just started GoT. She is currently in the living room watching S1E9
I am listening intently
Props to you for not taking the risk of spoiling it for her by going out watching her reaction, or worse filming it like those red wedding assholes.
"Hey what part are you at?"
"Nothing interesting. That kid Joffrey is on stage and about to pardon Ned Stark. The episode's almost over, so I'm guessing it'll end with Ned packing and leaving for Winterfell, or maybe with Joffrey and Sansa walking off into the sunset together. He's such a nice boy."
I do wonder how people would've reacted to the Tyrion character in the show if he was as hideously disfigured as he was in the books. Like it or not, we judge based upon appearances, and the Tyrion in the books is so ugly that people cringe when they look at him (doubly so after his injury in the Battle of the Blackwater, which cut off his nose and gashed his face).
Keep in mind for the show Brienne of Tarth's actress is a model in real life. This show is full of very pretty actresses. IIRC Ygritte isn't supposed to be that hot either, she's played by
I always thought the biggest disparity in looks from the book to the show was Ramsay.
To be fair I stopped reading the books for a good few months after Ned.
Yeah I'm really hoping she swears the show off for like, months, after Season 3. Instantly going into S4 just seems like it would lesson the impact of that second wedding.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
the end of season 1 was upsetting
the red wedding legit made me mad and I almost stopped watching. if the show wasn't such a cultural thing with all my friends watching and such I might have.
not trying to make the argument that it was wrong at this point, I don't feel nearly as strongly as I did then and different people like different things and all that. but it fucking made me maaaaaaaaaad.
I hope they have an actual reason for bringing Lyanna Mormont back that goes beyond "Hey guys, remember that character you liked? We shoe-horned her back in because you liked her so much."
With just 13 episodes left to wrap up the series, I'd appreciate it if they kept the pandering to a minimum next season.
Is there any reason why she wouldn't be back?
There's 13 hours of show remaining. It's not like there's not ample room to work her into the story. That's like six movies.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I do wonder how people would've reacted to the Tyrion character in the show if he was as hideously disfigured as he was in the books. Like it or not, we judge based upon appearances, and the Tyrion in the books is so ugly that people cringe when they look at him (doubly so after his injury in the Battle of the Blackwater, which cut off his nose and gashed his face).
Keep in mind for the show Brienne of Tarth's actress is a model in real life. This show is full of very pretty actresses. IIRC Ygritte isn't supposed to be that hot either, she's played by
I always thought the biggest disparity in looks from the book to the show was Ramsay.
Iwan Rheon is not this:
I'm actually pretty sure that Iwan Rheon is closer to Ramsay Bolton than Rose Leslie is to Ygritte
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Keep in mind for the show Brienne of Tarth's actress is a model in real life. This show is full of very pretty actresses. IIRC Ygritte isn't supposed to be that hot either, she's played by
Books brienne:
and of course the biggest change
Really though, Dinklage and Christie are so great at playing the characters that it no longer matters. They've made the characters into something special for the show.
Tywin could have
They could worry about bringing the north back into the fold in a few decades, but part of Tywin's character isn't just choosing the most logical path, he has to make his enemies pay
Tywin was of a mind that if any kingdom was independent, other kingdoms would become independent, thus destroying all he worked for to get a lannister family member on the throne
if he let Robb defy him and walk away, others would follow and chaos would ensure. The Northern Lords werent in it for the gold, they were in it for their staunch loyalty to Ned and the Starks. If Robb accepted a peace term if a bribery sense, the northern lords would lose all respect and more chaos would ensue.
The make his enemies pay is very true, he told Joffrey the same thing. When your enemies defy you, you must serve them fire and steel. When they bend the knee, you must help them back up to their graces, or else no one would ever bend the knee to you again.
Very interesting stuff to theorize about. Im of the mind that once Ned was murdered, the North had to go to war, with peace being a defeat in the eyes of every non-stark northern lord
And based on how others describe him. The mismatched eyes probably cause no shortage of pearl-clutching, and describing a dwarf as "grostesque," in general, is probably a commin choice of words in this world; and doesn't necessarily a remark on his facial symmetry.
In the case of Brienne it is going to be hard to find an actress that embodies every last one of her physical qualities and to then go "hey we're going to make you look like Charlize Theron in Monster" is a rough sell to someone who may be up and coming.
Rose Leslie on the other hand literally knows boner magic and I would have cast her in every unfilled female role in the show if she had walked into my office for an audition.
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I mean, as a pretty recent example less than 100 years ago women would sooner walk around half blind than be caught wearing glasses outside, it was seen as completely disqualifying, unfeminine and embarrassing. The first corrective contact lenses sold were for the daughters of rich men, who paid a minor fortune so they didn't need to wear glasses. And that's just something you wear.
That we find certain actors attractive even while the world of Westeros finds them hideous is more a feature than a bug, I think.
LOL Is that a gold tooth? They would have needed Gary Oldman to play him to actually have him come off as charismatic.
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Gary is a chameleon, he's as old as he wants to be.
Can you guess which role he's playing here?
He's Leo's glass.
I don't know. David Bowie and Mila Kunis aren't that repulsive.
christ my great grandma used to get beaten and tied up in a closet for being left handed (make america great again)
They don't call it "sinister" for nothing.
In many societies toilet paper wasn't commonly available until much more recently than you'd think and the usual way of cleaning up was to wet a hand and wipe. This was usually done with the left hand. Even after toilet paper became available many of those societies didn't let go of the stigma of the left hand being the one that cleans up poop. It's a very bad idea in the ones not yet past that to hand anything to someone with your left hand.
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Small aside
Lyanna Mormont will be back to take no shit.
Counterpoint: Purple Wedding spoilers
Tywin, on the other hand, runs to Tommen, covers his eyes and stays by his side throughout the chaos, protecting him.
Tywin is evil, but he's also complicated, and he's capable of caring deeply for people. In the books, that's reflected in the love he had for his wife. In the show, it's in little moments like the one above.
With just 13 episodes left to wrap up the series, I'd appreciate it if they kept the pandering to a minimum next season.
Tywin also
Is there any reason why she wouldn't be back?
Because dragons are expensive, and there aren't many wolves left to kill.
I am listening intently
Props to you for not taking the risk of spoiling it for her by going out watching her reaction, or worse filming it like those red wedding assholes.
"Hey what part are you at?"
"Nothing interesting. That kid Joffrey is on stage and about to pardon Ned Stark. The episode's almost over, so I'm guessing it'll end with Ned packing and leaving for Winterfell, or maybe with Joffrey and Sansa walking off into the sunset together. He's such a nice boy."
"Mmmhhmmnnmmmnnnn"
Roommate "Oh shit!"
Sword comes down "OH NO THEY DIDN'T"
Getting ready to walk to the store and I hear her in the kitchen "That's bullshit he fucking betrayed his honor and everything!"
Oh summer child, I am going to enjoy this.
Which is annoying, because now I have constant "who is that"s to deal with.
I always thought the biggest disparity in looks from the book to the show was Ramsay.
Iwan Rheon is not this:
Yeah I'm really hoping she swears the show off for like, months, after Season 3. Instantly going into S4 just seems like it would lesson the impact of that second wedding.
the red wedding legit made me mad and I almost stopped watching. if the show wasn't such a cultural thing with all my friends watching and such I might have.
not trying to make the argument that it was wrong at this point, I don't feel nearly as strongly as I did then and different people like different things and all that. but it fucking made me maaaaaaaaaad.
There's 13 hours of show remaining. It's not like there's not ample room to work her into the story. That's like six movies.
I'm actually pretty sure that Iwan Rheon is closer to Ramsay Bolton than Rose Leslie is to Ygritte