Is there anyone who actually thinks the extra HP from the backburner is needed? If the backburner lost normal crits and had a wider range of critting from behind, yet lost the extra HP, would anyone complain?
Edit: and yeah, that was a strange experience. Although we did learn why you're a bad Heavy, Duld. Stop breathing through your mouth, duh.
The extra HP is needed as it is, but yeah, I would definitely rather see it replaced with another buff. The Backburner is already not an upgrade, but it's too newb-friendly IMHO.
Ugh but people on opposition are tilting it all one way.
Removing context for the pyro's argument and refusing to ignore it to the point of obstinacy for the sniper's argument. So nobody has even raised the issues about snipers being targeted a lot on the PA servers, or having their aims jogged, or shots blocked by people walking in front of them - but as soon as the pyro is focused on I'm hearing things like "oh well it's TEAM fortress, your team shouldn't be letting him through" etc. And nobody has mentioned either the fact that the sniper then has to play much better than the pyro.
People are giving pyro all the subjective advantages and the sniper all the objective negatives.
What I am saying, my fundamental point is this:
Pyros should not be able to do what they are doing at the minute. They should not be able to plough straight at a sniper, shrugging off headshots, at high speed, and kill him instantly.
No other class can do this, and pyros are meant to be close combat. This is what I am talking about when I say that I think they are unbalanced - it's not in relation specifically to a sniper. I am using a sniper paradigm because it's what I know best. I've played 380 hours as the class. Want to put this into technical experiment terms? Consider the sniper the control, and the classes the variables. I don't see other classes doing what pyros can do.
i appreciate the extra hp, its helps when attackign from the front. hence its an upgrade.
Well of course extra HP helps, but that wasn't the question. Do you think its NEEDED, or would a 175 HP backburner be more balanced? And besides, its supposed to be a fucking ALTERNATIVE weapon, not an "upgrade".
no it is an upgrade. thats why its a lvl10 flame thrower as opposed to a lvl1 flame thrower..
Normal weapons scale from, what, 5-20% critrate as more damage is done? Something like +15% when maxed, anyways. Maybe the backburner should be changed to be able to scale from 5-50%, but would take triple damage(over triple the time, of course). Then you'd get a pretty big bonus for managing to live longer while still damaging opponents.
I dunno...might be useful while still requiring the pyro to not be completely retarded.
Is it that snipers just rile people up more than pyros or something?
Well, snipers DO smell like poop.
Well, it's not like they can just leave their perch to go find an outhouse, now can they?
Zoidberg, it's not really like Cannonball Run as much as it's like It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World. There are six teams of people racing for a cash prize, so Atkinson gets a proportionate share of the screen time. His character is pretty goofy, but so's the movie, on the whole. He's not much like Bean in this one though, in that Atkinson isn't miming the humor.
Rat Race was a good movie, even if only to see Atkinson not be Bean again (Blackadder was much better in my opinion).
Rat Race was an awful remake of It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World.
I agree with you Flippy. But in the end the game is only like 19% complete as it stands atm. I have faith Valve will implement such interesting changes we will literally be playing TF2 v2.0+.
Is there anyone who actually thinks the extra HP from the backburner is needed? If the backburner lost normal crits and had a wider range of critting from behind, yet lost the extra HP, would anyone complain?
Edit: and yeah, that was a strange experience. Although we did learn why you're a bad Heavy, Duld. Stop breathing through your mouth, duh.
Double nerfage makes it a pretty mediocre weapon. I don't see why you wouldn't just use the leafblower if they did that.
Because me with all 9 hours in pyro is out here touting the pyro buffs as the final word on everything. It's not a lack of objectivity, it's the suspension of disbelief you're pulling. If a pyro can run straight at you from across the Dustbowl trench and kill you, you're a bad sniper. Know when to stand and when to retreat, and if that sucker is at your heels, retreat and pick off other shit
Your entire premise is all broken down because between a sniper and a pyro is the rest of your team and whatever other obstacles. The pyro ignoring those 11 other people he has to run by to get to a sniper who's in the back is going to die, simple as that.
You're having some kind of persecution complex with the whole "people targeting snipers". People target YOU because you are a good sniper. People will also target heavys because they're the main defensive brunt or demos because they're sticky fields go away when they die.
Pyros should not be able to do what they are doing at the minute. They should not be able to plough straight at a sniper, shrugging off headshots, at high speed, and kill him instantly.
A pyro can't just plow straight at a sniper, because your team will (or at the very least, *should*) kill him before he sets a finger on you.
Also, how are they 'high speed'? Do you think spies are too fast? Snipers?
Because me with all 9 hours in pyro is out here touting the pyro buffs as the final word on everything.
I'm not an American politican so I can't see what's wrong in American politics.
Stop looking at this as a sniper versus pyro complaint and start looking at it as a sniper who faces ALL classes noticing a distinct difference in the potential ability of the pyro compared to the other classes.
Because me with all 9 hours in pyro is out here touting the pyro buffs as the final word on everything.
I'm not an American politican so I can't see what's wrong in American politics.
Stop looking at this as a sniper versus pyro complaint and start looking at it as a sniper who faces ALL classes noticing a distinct difference in the potential ability of the pyro compared to the other classes.
Because other classes don't have unlocks yet?
It's going to even itself out as other combat classes get their unlocks
So you do concede that pyros are relatively stronger than other classes at the moment, then?
Because lordy that's the only point I've ever been making, just through the prism of a sniper's perspective.
I said in the previous thread the +50 hp was excessive, and it's most likely the main reason there's lots of moping about pyros right now.
Are they relatively stronger than other classes? Yes some, but they're still not that much of an issue for anyone who is at least modest in the pyro, soldier, demo, and heavy classes.
Enders why the hell were you arguing with Flippy in the first place if you agree that pyros are stronger than other classes
Do you enjoy watching him get riled up too?
Also, I hear that one of the Zombie Master devs is working on a map for TF2. I shall investigate further.
No, just the original statement implied that as a class specialists, he believed there was something more snipers should have to give them over a short ranged class.
Me and Flippy are still butt-buddies, I just like to leap at nonsense with abandon
And I haven't been in an internet debate in a while so it was built up inside
Tyrantcow you thought my complaint was that I couldn't kill anyone with ease. I don't think you can claim to have a very solid grasp on the discussion.
Because me with all 9 hours in pyro is out here touting the pyro buffs as the final word on everything.
I'm not an American politican so I can't see what's wrong in American politics.
Stop looking at this as a sniper versus pyro complaint and start looking at it as a sniper who faces ALL classes noticing a distinct difference in the potential ability of the pyro to kill snipers compared to the other classes.
fixed
The Pyro got buffed and now he's stronger than he was before, that's not rocket science. BB Pyros are probably the best class at bull-rushing a Sniper too, so what? That doesn't prove anything about the overall balance. I don't know how you can possibly call your opinion "objective" when 99% of your time is spent on one class.
A quick look at the stats shows that Pyros, the majority of which use the backburner(because they suck), aren't #1 in a single category. They're below the Heavy in both points and kills, above the other combat classes by a slim margin, and near the bottom in average lifespan. I don't see any evidence of an obvious imbalance.
Because me with all 9 hours in pyro is out here touting the pyro buffs as the final word on everything.
I'm not an American politican so I can't see what's wrong in American politics.
Stop looking at this as a sniper versus pyro complaint and start looking at it as a sniper who faces ALL classes noticing a distinct difference in the potential ability of the pyro to kill snipers compared to the other classes.
fixed
The Pyro got buffed and now he's stronger than he was before, that's not rocket science. BB Pyros are probably the best class at bull-rushing a Sniper too, so what? That doesn't prove anything about the overall balance. I don't know how you can possibly call your opinion "objective" when 99% of your time is spent on one class.
A quick look at the stats shows that Pyros, the majority of which use the backburner(because they suck), aren't #1 in a single category. They're below the Heavy in both points and kills, above the other combat classes by a slim margin, and near the bottom in average lifespan. I don't see any evidence of an obvious imbalance.
if theyre below in averge life span and (as you said most use the BB) then that shows that the extra health is needed because it isnt sustaining life for long enough.. also on another note.. you dont have to be a crap pyro to use a back burner. before the update i would regualry top the server as a pyro with a "classic" flamethrower. the BB just compiments my skills better, as it was designed for a good pyro.
once the other updates are out people wont be bitching about pyros. i promise you. so why bother now?
(this is to the whole PA TF2 community as a whole)
if your goign to bitch about pyros killing you then A) get the fuck better so you can try to kill us first! or dont let us get behind you!!!
Because me with all 9 hours in pyro is out here touting the pyro buffs as the final word on everything.
I'm not an American politican so I can't see what's wrong in American politics.
Stop looking at this as a sniper versus pyro complaint and start looking at it as a sniper who faces ALL classes noticing a distinct difference in the potential ability of the pyro to kill snipers compared to the other classes.
fixed
The Pyro got buffed and now he's stronger than he was before, that's not rocket science. BB Pyros are probably the best class at bull-rushing a Sniper too, so what? That doesn't prove anything about the overall balance. I don't know how you can possibly call your opinion "objective" when 99% of your time is spent on one class.
A quick look at the stats shows that Pyros, the majority of which use the backburner(because they suck), aren't #1 in a single category. They're below the Heavy in both points and kills, above the other combat classes by a slim margin, and near the bottom in average lifespan. I don't see any evidence of an obvious imbalance.
if theyre below in averge life span and (as you said most use the BB) then that shows that the extra health is needed because it isnt sustaining life for long enough.. also on another note.. you dont have to be a crap pyro to use a back burner. before the update i would regualry top the server as a pyro with a "classic" flamethrower. the BB just compiments my skills better, as it was designed for a good pyro.
once the other updates are out people wont be bitching about pyros. i promise you. so why bother now?
(this is to the whole PA TF2 community as a whole)
if your goign to bitch about pyros killing you then A) get the fuck better so you can try to kill us first! or dont let us get behind you!!!
The problem with it is it made bad Pyro's GOOD and GOOD Pyro's unstopable. The medic patch did neither.
Except most people pre-update thought the pyro needed a buff (not just a change of equipment) to be effective. That's why they got the leafblower option and falloff removed. I do agree, however, that the health from the backburner is excessive, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it brought down to 25 in the heavy update.
Because me with all 9 hours in pyro is out here touting the pyro buffs as the final word on everything.
I'm not an American politican so I can't see what's wrong in American politics.
Stop looking at this as a sniper versus pyro complaint and start looking at it as a sniper who faces ALL classes noticing a distinct difference in the potential ability of the pyro to kill snipers compared to the other classes.
fixed
The Pyro got buffed and now he's stronger than he was before, that's not rocket science. BB Pyros are probably the best class at bull-rushing a Sniper too, so what? That doesn't prove anything about the overall balance. I don't know how you can possibly call your opinion "objective" when 99% of your time is spent on one class.
A quick look at the stats shows that Pyros, the majority of which use the backburner(because they suck), aren't #1 in a single category. They're below the Heavy in both points and kills, above the other combat classes by a slim margin, and near the bottom in average lifespan. I don't see any evidence of an obvious imbalance.
if theyre below in averge life span and (as you said most use the BB) then that shows that the extra health is needed because it isnt sustaining life for long enough.. also on another note.. you dont have to be a crap pyro to use a back burner. before the update i would regualry top the server as a pyro with a "classic" flamethrower. the BB just compiments my skills better, as it was designed for a good pyro.
once the other updates are out people wont be bitching about pyros. i promise you. so why bother now?
(this is to the whole PA TF2 community as a whole)
if your goign to bitch about pyros killing you then A) get the fuck better so you can try to kill us first! or dont let us get behind you!!!
The problem with it is it made bad Pyro's GOOD and GOOD Pyro's unstopable. The medic patch did neither.
On that note, I love the leafblower.
but that's the thing, the medic update did do that.. Remember when we had whole teams of medics going round in pairs with über saws alternating their übers..? I do. And the vamp gun made pyros afterburn useless.. The heavy update will come out and the pyros will be mowed down once again. And then people will complain about heavies.. This is all just lame, if it bothers you so much then don't play or wait for your favorite class to get its turn..
Honestly, using overall stats right now are probably skewed.
1) With the recent pyro patch, alot of bad pyros (like me) have been playing the pyro just to try to get the achievements.
2) Gaining the achievements often encourage kamikaze behavior, leading to a lower life span: I got a number of achievements on instant respawn pub servers while waiting to get into regular servers... Which is how one can easily reconcile their low average lifespan with their high average kills/hour.
That said, I've felt many times that the backburner should ONLY crit from the back. I've alternately felt on many occasions that the +50 HP is too much (so many pyros have escaped me or killed me with 50 or fewer HP). Though I try not to complain too much and figure out how to beat them, I'd prefer the BB to only crit from behind.
you dont have to be a crap pyro to use a back burner. before the update i would regualry top the server as a pyro with a "classic" flamethrower. the BB just compiments my skills better, as it was designed for a good pyro.
Maybe so, but that was then, and now using the airblast is a major part of Pyro skill. Most people use the Backburner instead because they think the airblast isn't good enough, which is generally because they suck at it.
The problem with it is it made bad Pyro's GOOD and GOOD Pyro's unstopable. The medic patch did neither.
On that note, I love the leafblower.
The Pyro needed a buff. It just so happened that he got one rolled in with his update. No other class will get as much love in their patch. The Medic just got some token improvements to tempt people to play him, the rest of the classes will probably get mostly sidegrades.
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The extra HP is needed as it is, but yeah, I would definitely rather see it replaced with another buff. The Backburner is already not an upgrade, but it's too newb-friendly IMHO.
Removing context for the pyro's argument and refusing to ignore it to the point of obstinacy for the sniper's argument. So nobody has even raised the issues about snipers being targeted a lot on the PA servers, or having their aims jogged, or shots blocked by people walking in front of them - but as soon as the pyro is focused on I'm hearing things like "oh well it's TEAM fortress, your team shouldn't be letting him through" etc. And nobody has mentioned either the fact that the sniper then has to play much better than the pyro.
People are giving pyro all the subjective advantages and the sniper all the objective negatives.
What I am saying, my fundamental point is this:
Pyros should not be able to do what they are doing at the minute. They should not be able to plough straight at a sniper, shrugging off headshots, at high speed, and kill him instantly.
No other class can do this, and pyros are meant to be close combat. This is what I am talking about when I say that I think they are unbalanced - it's not in relation specifically to a sniper. I am using a sniper paradigm because it's what I know best. I've played 380 hours as the class. Want to put this into technical experiment terms? Consider the sniper the control, and the classes the variables. I don't see other classes doing what pyros can do.
no it is an upgrade. thats why its a lvl10 flame thrower as opposed to a lvl1 flame thrower..
see what happened there?
I dunno...might be useful while still requiring the pyro to not be completely retarded.
I'm trying!
Double nerfage makes it a pretty mediocre weapon. I don't see why you wouldn't just use the leafblower if they did that.
Because me with all 9 hours in pyro is out here touting the pyro buffs as the final word on everything. It's not a lack of objectivity, it's the suspension of disbelief you're pulling. If a pyro can run straight at you from across the Dustbowl trench and kill you, you're a bad sniper. Know when to stand and when to retreat, and if that sucker is at your heels, retreat and pick off other shit
Your entire premise is all broken down because between a sniper and a pyro is the rest of your team and whatever other obstacles. The pyro ignoring those 11 other people he has to run by to get to a sniper who's in the back is going to die, simple as that.
You're having some kind of persecution complex with the whole "people targeting snipers". People target YOU because you are a good sniper. People will also target heavys because they're the main defensive brunt or demos because they're sticky fields go away when they die.
I just got 3 kills in a 1v1 against a scout, when I was a sniper. That was glorious.
Er, also, I agree with Flippy's reasoning. With +50 HP the Pyro goes everywhere and kills everything. I still love pyro, though.
Also, how are they 'high speed'? Do you think spies are too fast? Snipers?
Stop looking at this as a sniper versus pyro complaint and start looking at it as a sniper who faces ALL classes noticing a distinct difference in the potential ability of the pyro compared to the other classes.
Because other classes don't have unlocks yet?
It's going to even itself out as other combat classes get their unlocks
Because lordy that's the only point I've ever been making, just through the prism of a sniper's perspective.
Doesn't seem that imba to me, looking at it OBJECTIVELY (none of what anyone has said so far is objective (neither is this))
Don't nobody concede nothing, watching flippy flail about madly is far too entertaining.
I said in the previous thread the +50 hp was excessive, and it's most likely the main reason there's lots of moping about pyros right now.
Are they relatively stronger than other classes? Yes some, but they're still not that much of an issue for anyone who is at least modest in the pyro, soldier, demo, and heavy classes.
Enders why the hell were you arguing with Flippy in the first place if you agree that pyros are stronger than other classes
Do you enjoy watching him get riled up too?
Also, I hear that one of the Zombie Master devs is working on a map for TF2. I shall investigate further.
No, just the original statement implied that as a class specialists, he believed there was something more snipers should have to give them over a short ranged class.
Me and Flippy are still butt-buddies, I just like to leap at nonsense with abandon
And I haven't been in an internet debate in a while so it was built up inside
@Enders: Okay.
fixed
The Pyro got buffed and now he's stronger than he was before, that's not rocket science. BB Pyros are probably the best class at bull-rushing a Sniper too, so what? That doesn't prove anything about the overall balance. I don't know how you can possibly call your opinion "objective" when 99% of your time is spent on one class.
A quick look at the stats shows that Pyros, the majority of which use the backburner(because they suck), aren't #1 in a single category. They're below the Heavy in both points and kills, above the other combat classes by a slim margin, and near the bottom in average lifespan. I don't see any evidence of an obvious imbalance.
if theyre below in averge life span and (as you said most use the BB) then that shows that the extra health is needed because it isnt sustaining life for long enough.. also on another note.. you dont have to be a crap pyro to use a back burner. before the update i would regualry top the server as a pyro with a "classic" flamethrower. the BB just compiments my skills better, as it was designed for a good pyro.
once the other updates are out people wont be bitching about pyros. i promise you. so why bother now?
(this is to the whole PA TF2 community as a whole)
Ooh! and a wed fire twuck.
The problem with it is it made bad Pyro's GOOD and GOOD Pyro's unstopable. The medic patch did neither.
On that note, I love the leafblower.
What is this heresy
Except most people pre-update thought the pyro needed a buff (not just a change of equipment) to be effective. That's why they got the leafblower option and falloff removed. I do agree, however, that the health from the backburner is excessive, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it brought down to 25 in the heavy update.
Steam | XBL: Elazual | Last.fm
but that's the thing, the medic update did do that.. Remember when we had whole teams of medics going round in pairs with über saws alternating their übers..? I do. And the vamp gun made pyros afterburn useless.. The heavy update will come out and the pyros will be mowed down once again. And then people will complain about heavies.. This is all just lame, if it bothers you so much then don't play or wait for your favorite class to get its turn..
1) With the recent pyro patch, alot of bad pyros (like me) have been playing the pyro just to try to get the achievements.
2) Gaining the achievements often encourage kamikaze behavior, leading to a lower life span: I got a number of achievements on instant respawn pub servers while waiting to get into regular servers... Which is how one can easily reconcile their low average lifespan with their high average kills/hour.
That said, I've felt many times that the backburner should ONLY crit from the back. I've alternately felt on many occasions that the +50 HP is too much (so many pyros have escaped me or killed me with 50 or fewer HP). Though I try not to complain too much and figure out how to beat them, I'd prefer the BB to only crit from behind.
Origin: Viycktor
Maybe so, but that was then, and now using the airblast is a major part of Pyro skill. Most people use the Backburner instead because they think the airblast isn't good enough, which is generally because they suck at it.
The Pyro needed a buff. It just so happened that he got one rolled in with his update. No other class will get as much love in their patch. The Medic just got some token improvements to tempt people to play him, the rest of the classes will probably get mostly sidegrades.