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Let's talk about rape culture.

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Posts

  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    But rapes are almost never about guys using a shortcut into a girl's pants. They are, as you said, about people seizing power that they feel they need but are otherwise lacking the ability to achieve. That has nothing to do with sex or sexualization. Even in the case of godawful fuckwads like the guys discussing the Pick-Up Artists culture thread of a while back, they admit that if a girl says no then that means no. Rapists are, almost universally, not just guys who really, really want sex. They're psychologically unbalanced individuals who are using a violent action to assert dominance and power over people whom they would otherwise perceive themselves as being subordinate to.

    Ehhh...

    Rape with a capital R of the type that is premeditated is not at all about sex. It is entirely about power.

    But I would hazard a guess that a decent proportion of sexual violence incidents don't fall into that category. I can only speak from personal experience and the experiences of my friends. But most of the women I know that have experienced sexual assault it wasn't that clear. It was a case where the girl planned on making out but doing nothing more and both kept drinking all night (equal amounts) until they were naked and she was too drunk to enunciate the words to ask him to stop. Or she was scared of the look in his eyes. Or she doesn't remember the night at all and doesn't know what she said to him. Or they were messing around with teasing and it took him longer than it should to realize that she meant stop when she was saying stop. Or he was bigger than her and she assumed he wouldn't stop if she said no so she said nothing.

    Honestly, I don't know if any of these were rape. But they were all things that in the morning left the girl feeling like something wrong had happened.

    I do think that the part of culture that portrays virtuous women as not being interested in sex contributes to this problem because there are girls out there who say "no" in a teasing manner and happily have sex after that because they can feel good about themselves because they said no. This sets up guys to not believe the next girl who says no.

    Also, reporting a robbery doesn't leave the person who was robbed labeled as a "robbery victim" for the rest of their lives. Being a "rape victim" is something that tends to label women for the rest of their lives, and is even used to deny them health insurance.

    Kistra on
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  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    GungHo wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I don't know because it's probably different in each case. Society doesn't tend to look down on rape victims though; rather society tends to be very sympathetic towards them.
    As for why more rapists aren't convicted; though obviously a terrible crime, it can often be very difficult to prove. You can't throw a person in jail because "Come on, you just know this guy is guilty!". You need hard evidence, and sometimes there isn't any. Also, because it can be such a traumatizing experience, the victim is often not a reliable eye witness. It sounds terrible, but it's true.
    Someone who has been raped is very likely to be put in the "damaged goods" category by those who are aware of it.
    Those people who do so need to be flogged.

    I can't believe I'm getting into this discussion.

    Would you really date a recovering rape victim? There are very real psychological trauma that occur from that kind of abuse, and that trauma can affect their future relationships with people in general and especially men who they're romantically involved with.

    A lot of them don't ever recover from what's been done to them, and they may never fully trust a man again. You can't blame the victim for what happened, but that lack of trust won't make them an ideal partner either.

    Brolo on
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Or it's, you know, because men typically have a more active sex drive than women.

    This is actually something of a myth.

    Yeah, sexual aggressiveness is such a huge part of the cultural definition of masculinity that there's this whole cottage industry of evolutionary biology and appeals to science to try to say this is "right" or "natural."

    Maybe men's "naturally higher sex drive" has to do with the fact that culture makes it acceptable for men to be aggressive about sex? Just maybe? No? Okay.

    lenore beadsman on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Rolo wrote: »
    Would you really date a recovering rape victim? There are very real psychological trauma that occur from that kind of abuse, and that trauma can affect their future relationships with people in general and especially men who they're romantically involved with.

    A lot of them don't ever recover from what's been done to them, and they may never fully trust a man again. You can't blame the victim for what happened, but that lack of trust won't make them an ideal partner either.

    Not all victims react the same way.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    Seems to be a lot of grand standing ended with "and if you don't agree you're part of the problem". Hate to kinda rain on the thesis here, but even my big barrel chested ass stops doing certain things if there's a hint of danger. You know, going to a big city and flashing cash, not going down seedy alley ways, not drawing attention to myself, not wearing ridiculously expensive clothing, etc. I avoid doing things like that when I'm in New Orleans at night because I don't want to get shot.

    That doesn't mean we're in some kind of culture that promotes violence because that happens.

    Bad things happen. Period. Be it theft, rape, murder, assault, etc. Do some people blame the victim? Yes, but those people are not indicative of society.

    If you want to see a real rape culture then go to the Congo. Don't try to highlight shitty parts of our society to paint the entire country as being of a certain mindset.

    Yeah man, this can only be a problem in one place, and it sure as shit isn't here.

    What the fuck? Rape culture can exist in two different cultures. In more than two. Hint: it does.

    I think his point was that a society where soldiers rape women an gunpoint and brag about it is more drastic than a society with embedded chauvinistic/misogynistic tenancies which may or may not lead to cases of rape.

    I'd like to pose this question. In order to live in a rape culture, do convicted rapists need to be considered respectable and/or legitimate in the eyes of the majority of society?

    Heartlash on
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  • logic7logic7 Registered User
    edited October 2009
    I've often complained to my wife about how overly sexualized young girls clothing is these days.

    a few years ago, we started seeing little girls shorts and sweats with slogans and whatnot in huge print across the butt area of the garment. My first reaction was that it focuses attention to the posterior end of little girls and inadvertently (or maybe intentionaly) makes everyone within eyesight stare at them. I said this was a bad idea and designers need to quit. Next, while shopping for my girls with the wife, we started to notice "sexy" underwear for little girls. The fuck does an 8 year old need low-rise bikini panties for??? That shit was waaaaaaay over the top and the first thing I could think of was some pedo jerking to a JC Penny catalog while staring at little girl models in these things. Finally... Skinny jeans. It's bad enough wne guys wear 'em, but when a developing 14-17 year old girl is in them along with skin tight shirts, it's inviting grown ass men that wouldn't otherwise stare at these teenagers to oogle them. I've voiced my distaste for them, yet my wife doesn't see anything wrong with them and continues to buy them for my oldest girl (she's 15). Also, girls shorts are getting shorter and shorter. These days, you almost CAN'T buy anything that's not skin tight and ultra short (to the point of all but showing a hint of ass cheek) for teenage girls anymore. Thankfully, schools started banning thong underwear on teenage girls... well, visible whale-tails anyways. I'm pretty sure the girls are still wearing them, but what the fuck for??? Low Rise jeans in juniors sizes and half tops for teens only make it worse.

    And this shit is available at EVERY Walmart in the U.S. In fact, Walmart pretty much doesn't sell anything for teenage girls that's NOT sexually charged.

    All of this fosters an environment where teenage girls, and even pre-teens, are seen by their peers and some grown ass men as sexual objects. This can lead to an increase in the incidents of rape among teenagers and pedos looking to get that 16 year old girl next door drunk so he can "score".

    logic7 on
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    And another thing from the Tower of Text:
    Rape culture is rape jokes. Rape culture is rape jokes on t-shirts, rape jokes in college newspapers, rape jokes in soldiers' home videos, rape jokes on the radio, rape jokes on news broadcasts, rape jokes in magazines, rape jokes in viral videos, rape jokes in promotions for children's movies, rape jokes on Page Six (and again!), rape jokes on the funny pages, rape jokes on TV shows, rape jokes on the campaign trail, rape jokes on Halloween, rape jokes in online content by famous people, rape jokes in online content by non-famous people, rape jokes in headlines, rape jokes onstage at clubs, rape jokes in politics, rape jokes in one-woman shows, rape jokes in print campaigns, rape jokes in movies, rape jokes in cartoons, rape jokes in nightclubs, rape jokes on MTV, rape jokes on late-night chat shows, rape jokes in tattoos, rape jokes in stand-up comedy, rape jokes on websites, rape jokes at awards shows, rape jokes in online contests, rape jokes in movie trailers, rape jokes on the sides of buses, rape jokes on cultural institutions…

    How are jokes about rape rape culture? Our society, and in fact human nature, demands that we make jokes about things. Humor is a coping mechanism. Once we're done being horrified, we make a joke so that the horror is dulled. People make jokes about literally everything. The fact that you make a joke about something horrible doesn't mean that you support it.
    Go to the original post and click through some of the links in that paragraph, and let me know if you think the perpetrators are 'done being horrified, so make a joke so that the horror is dulled.' The answer may surprise you!

    scrivenerjones on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »

    What's being stolen is a bit more "shameful" in the case of rape.


    (Note: I don't think it's shameful at all, but I've also never been a rape victim)

    My point is why is that more shameful (not from your perspective, but from society's? Why is it shameful for a woman to have been sexually violated? That is a symptom of rape culture.

    Society doesn't shame the victim, the victim shames him/herself.

    It's shame and fear brought on by feelings of weakness and powerlessness, and fear of retribution (if they "tell").

    All right. Where does the victim get the idea in her head that she ought to be ashamed? Do you think there is a gene responsible for being ashamed of being raped?

    Also the main defense used for accused rapists is that the victim was a whore so obviously would have said yes and her claiming she said no can't possible be true.
    That's not true. Such a defense is not admissible under modern criminal evidence rules in the US. The reputation, dress and promiscuity of the victim is not relevant to a charge of rape. That may have happened in the past, but that simply doesn't happen anymore.

    The most common defense of rapists in cases where the victim and the defendant knew each other is that the victim consented to the sexual contact.

    Modern Man on
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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Kistra wrote: »
    Rape with a capital R of the type that is premeditated is not at all about sex. It is entirely about power.

    Except for the part that involves genitals.

    Rape is mostly about power, but it is also about sex.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Seems to be a lot of grand standing ended with "and if you don't agree you're part of the problem". Hate to kinda rain on the thesis here, but even my big barrel chested ass stops doing certain things if there's a hint of danger. You know, going to a big city and flashing cash, not going down seedy alley ways, not drawing attention to myself, not wearing ridiculously expensive clothing, etc. I avoid doing things like that when I'm in New Orleans at night because I don't want to get shot.

    That doesn't mean we're in some kind of culture that promotes violence because that happens.

    Bad things happen. Period. Be it theft, rape, murder, assault, etc. Do some people blame the victim? Yes, but those people are not indicative of society.

    If you want to see a real rape culture then go to the Congo. Don't try to highlight shitty parts of our society to paint the entire country as being of a certain mindset.

    Yeah man, this can only be a problem in one place, and it sure as shit isn't here.

    What the fuck? Rape culture can exist in two different cultures. In more than two. Hint: it does.

    I think his point was that a society where soldiers rape women an gunpoint and brag about it is more drastic than a society with embedded chauvinistic/misogynistic tenancies which may or may not lead to cases of rape.

    I'd like to pose this question. In order to live in a rape culture, do convicted rapists need to be considered respectable and/or legitimate in the eyes of the majority of society?

    No.

    lenore beadsman on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2009
    I'm not sure I understand this post, are you saying that "being a woman" is one of those activities that is too dangerous to be doing in certain parts of town?

    What I said didn't really clearly make my point, which is basically that because it exists doesn't mean it's part of the culture as a whole.
    What the fuck? Rape culture can exist in two different cultures. In more than two. Hint: it does.

    I didn't say it didn't.

    I'm just saying it doesn't exist here as a majority.

    The general line of thinking seems to be that since it happens here and because some comedian jokes about it, then a majority of our society supports it.
    I'd like to pose this question. In order to live in a rape culture, do convicted rapists need to be considered respectable and/or legitimate in the eyes of the majority of society?

    No, because if they were convicted, they would, at least in our legal institution, not be legitimized. If an individual or individuals thinks different, they're not part of our society as a whole.

    To say that the US is in a rape culture that supports the act includes the demographic that are often raped, which seems to be kinda circular logic that leads back to "well they asked for it".

    And we all know the response to something stupid like that.

    Sheep on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »

    What's being stolen is a bit more "shameful" in the case of rape.


    (Note: I don't think it's shameful at all, but I've also never been a rape victim)

    My point is why is that more shameful (not from your perspective, but from society's? Why is it shameful for a woman to have been sexually violated? That is a symptom of rape culture.

    Society doesn't shame the victim, the victim shames him/herself.

    It's shame and fear brought on by feelings of weakness and powerlessness, and fear of retribution (if they "tell").

    All right. Where does the victim get the idea in her head that she ought to be ashamed? Do you think there is a gene responsible for being ashamed of being raped?

    Also the main defense used for accused rapists is that the victim was a whore so obviously would have said yes and her claiming she said no can't possible be true.
    That's not true. Such a defense is not admissible under modern criminal evidence rules in the US. The reputation, dress and promiscuity of the victim is not relevant to a charge of rape. That may have happened in the past, but that simply doesn't happen anymore.

    The most common defense of rapists in cases where the victim and the defendant knew each other is that the victim consented to the sexual contact.

    It happened, what, four years ago? In a somewhat prominent trial in Colorado.

    enlightenedbum on
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  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    logic7 wrote: »
    All of this fosters an environment where teenage girls, and even pre-teens, are seen by their peers and some grown ass men as sexual objects. This can lead to an increase in the incidents of rape among teenagers and pedos looking to get that 16 year old girl next door drunk so he can "score".

    Yup.

    lenore beadsman on
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »

    What's being stolen is a bit more "shameful" in the case of rape.


    (Note: I don't think it's shameful at all, but I've also never been a rape victim)

    My point is why is that more shameful (not from your perspective, but from society's? Why is it shameful for a woman to have been sexually violated? That is a symptom of rape culture.

    Society doesn't shame the victim, the victim shames him/herself.

    It's shame and fear brought on by feelings of weakness and powerlessness, and fear of retribution (if they "tell").

    All right. Where does the victim get the idea in her head that she ought to be ashamed? Do you think there is a gene responsible for being ashamed of being raped?

    Also the main defense used for accused rapists is that the victim was a whore so obviously would have said yes and her claiming she said no can't possible be true.
    That's not true. Such a defense is not admissible under modern criminal evidence rules in the US. The reputation, dress and promiscuity of the victim is not relevant to a charge of rape. That may have happened in the past, but that simply doesn't happen anymore.

    The most common defense of rapists in cases where the victim and the defendant knew each other is that the victim consented to the sexual contact.

    It happened, what, four years ago? In a somewhat prominent trial in Colorado.

    Colorado's law enforcement is completely fucked up.

    Zombiemambo on
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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    But rapes are almost never about guys using a shortcut into a girl's pants. They are, as you said, about people seizing power that they feel they need but are otherwise lacking the ability to achieve. That has nothing to do with sex or sexualization. Even in the case of godawful fuckwads like the guys discussing the Pick-Up Artists culture thread of a while back, they admit that if a girl says no then that means no. Rapists are, almost universally, not just guys who really, really want sex. They're psychologically unbalanced individuals who are using a violent action to assert dominance and power over people whom they would otherwise perceive themselves as being subordinate to.

    What do you think date rape is?

    I think that date rape is, in most cases, the same as any other rape. Men don't go on dates with a pocket full of ruphies (sp?) thinking, "Well, I'll just take these along in case things go badly." Date rapists are the same twisted individuals as jump-you-in-the-parking-lot rapists, only not quite as incapable of social interaction since they are still sufficiently savvy to get their target into a private situation before raping them.

    Note that I'm not talking here about men who take advantage of drunk women or cases were both parties are impaired. Those are problems and forms of rape, but they're a whole other kettle of fish from pre-meditated date (or otherwise) rapists.

    I think date rape is the same as other kinds of rape, too. I think there's a culture that says "if he buys you dinner, you should probably put out," and teaches women that men get mad if they won't, and teaches men that that anger is legitimate. It isn't. Women are taught that they somehow owe men sex if the men do xyz. Nobody ever owes anybody sex.

    I would argue that this kind of thinking is decreasing rather than increasing, but it's beside the point. Every human has the right and responsibility to say 'no' to sex and every other human has the responsibility to listen. Your expectations of getting sex don't matter. If I have been dating a girl for six months, we're making out, I have my hand down her pants and she's nothing but smiles but says "No" when I go for a condom it still means "No". I would, up to that point, have every apparently legitimate expectation that I'm about to get some sex but my expectations don't mean shit if she's not willing. Rape is a violation of personal rights. It's not an attitude. It's not an expectation. It's not pouting or yelling or saying mean things. It's a violent assault, perpetrated by a twisted individual.


    And on that subject, I have a question about the "1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted" statistic that gets quoted a lot. What does that mean, exactly? There are a lot of kinds of sexual assault, and I am genuinely curious if 1 in 6 women are actually raped, or if they're including things like verbal sexual harassment, flashing, etc. None of those things are okay, but the statistic really changes when it goes from "1 in 6 women will be raped" to "1 in 6 women will be the target of an unwanted sexual advance, of which a smaller percentage are rapes". Please note that I am not trying to diminish the plight of sexually assaulted women. I know that studies show rape to be a crime of dominance, not sexual desire, and performed by deviant personalities, not horny guys. This does not appear to mesh with the 1 in 6 figure. I am curious as to why.

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  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Seems to be a lot of grand standing ended with "and if you don't agree you're part of the problem". Hate to kinda rain on the thesis here, but even my big barrel chested ass stops doing certain things if there's a hint of danger. You know, going to a big city and flashing cash, not going down seedy alley ways, not drawing attention to myself, not wearing ridiculously expensive clothing, etc. I avoid doing things like that when I'm in New Orleans at night because I don't want to get shot.

    That doesn't mean we're in some kind of culture that promotes violence because that happens.

    Bad things happen. Period. Be it theft, rape, murder, assault, etc. Do some people blame the victim? Yes, but those people are not indicative of society.

    If you want to see a real rape culture then go to the Congo. Don't try to highlight shitty parts of our society to paint the entire country as being of a certain mindset.

    Yeah man, this can only be a problem in one place, and it sure as shit isn't here.

    What the fuck? Rape culture can exist in two different cultures. In more than two. Hint: it does.

    I think his point was that a society where soldiers rape women an gunpoint and brag about it is more drastic than a society with embedded chauvinistic/misogynistic tenancies which may or may not lead to cases of rape.

    I'd like to pose this question. In order to live in a rape culture, do convicted rapists need to be considered respectable and/or legitimate in the eyes of the majority of society?

    No.

    So, can a society which largely condemns rapists still be a rape culture? If so, how?

    Heartlash on
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  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    That's not true. Such a defense is not admissible under modern criminal evidence rules in the US. The reputation, dress and promiscuity of the victim is not relevant to a charge of rape. That may have happened in the past, but that simply doesn't happen anymore.

    The most common defense of rapists in cases where the victim and the defendant knew each other is that the victim consented to the sexual contact.

    It happened, what, four years ago? In a somewhat prominent trial in Colorado.

    Er... yeah... it happens all the time.

    Chanus on
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  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I think there's a culture that says "if he buys you dinner, you should probably put out," and teaches women that men get mad if they won't, and teaches men that that anger is legitimate. It isn't. Women are taught that they somehow owe men sex if the men do xyz. Nobody ever owes anybody sex.

    I think you're using examples from the 1960s again. There's no real cultural standard stating that women are supposed to put out if bought dinner.

    TubularLuggage on
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    That's not true. Such a defense is not admissible under modern criminal evidence rules in the US. The reputation, dress and promiscuity of the victim is not relevant to a charge of rape. That may have happened in the past, but that simply doesn't happen anymore.

    The most common defense of rapists in cases where the victim and the defendant knew each other is that the victim consented to the sexual contact.

    You life in a fantasy land fyi. From the Orange County gang rape case of a few years ago, where the defendants were filmed raping a girl who was passed-out drunk on a pool table and violating her with objects:
    No, this incident suggests that the young Haidl is growing up.

    In the first rape case, his father, who made a fortune selling used government cars in Rancho Cucamonga, funded a nine-member legal defense team—not including the army of private detectives, on-duty police officers and assorted other Haidl family camp followers. They called Jane Doe 1 a "slut" who enticed an "innocent . . . little boy" (that would be six-foot-plus Greg Haidl, who has had six known separate criminal episodes in the past three years). In hopes of forcing Jane Doe 1 to decline prosecution, they probed her entire life—tailed her, posted inflammatory fliers in her neighborhood, spread savage rumors about her family, sued investigating police agencies, and released her private medical records to members of the media. Some jurors weren't bothered; some actually received post-trial checks from Haidl in return for a promise to act as consultants at the retrial, which could begin later this year.
    The Haidl case actually made news because the prosecution made the "shocking" case during closing arguments that a woman who was sexually promiscuous could still be raped!

    And from the UK, which is also a rape culture:
    [The 10-year-old girl] was attacked in a park in South Oxfordshire by [Keith Fenn, 24] and his accomplice Darren Wright, 34, on October 14 last year. Fenn removed all her clothes and raped her, then Wright took her to his home and sexually assaulted her. Yet [Judge Julian Hall] said the case was exceptional because the "young woman" had been wearing a frilly bra and thong.

    …The court heard that the girl regularly wore make-up, strappy tops and jeans. "It is quite clear she is a very disturbed child and a very needy child and she is a sexually precocious child. She liked to dress provocatively," the judge said. "Did she look like she was 10? Certainly not. She looked 16."
    ...
    Judge Hall said he faced "a moral dilemma." So instead of the life sentence that Fenn faced, he instead gave him "concurrent two-year and 18-month sentences" which will leave him "free in just weeks after spending eight months in jail awaiting sentence." Fenn's accomplice is already free after having served eight months on remand.

    If this decision wasn't bad enough, earlier this year, Judge Hall set free another pedophile, "telling him to give his victim money 'to buy a nice new bicycle'."

    scrivenerjones on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »

    All right. Well. If rape is so deeply condemned by our society, then why are rapes underreported, and why is the conviction rate for rape charges so low?

    Yes, because something sometimes goes unreported, it must mean our society actively encourages it.
    Can you hear yourself? Seriously, read your own sentence back to yourself there.

    A lot of car accidents go unreported too, and those aren't encouraged or acceptable either.
    It's condemned in the sense that any sane, stable person is completely against it.

    That's kind of a dodge. You would think that if sexual violence was condemned and taken seriously, there'd be a lot more support for women who have been raped, and the people accused of rape would be convicted more often. Why do you think women often don't report rapes?
    I can't speak as to why rape victims don't report the assaults more often.

    But, in terms of getting convictions, keep in mind most rapes involve a person that the victim knows. Given that fact, making the legal case for rape in such a situation is difficult. If it comes down to a question of "he said, she said" when it comes to the question of consent (lack of which is a requirement for rape to occur), it is fairly easy for a defense counsel to establish reasonable doubt. That is, in cases where the victim and alleged rapist knew each other and there is no clear evidence of force or the threat thereof, it is tough to get a conviction.

    Why isn't the default status "not consenting?" It is in New Jersey. The defense must prove that there was an affirmative declaration of consent, not just an absence of not-consent. Only yes means yes, rather than no means no.
    Under that standard, the default setting for any act of intercourse is rape. I see some major problems with that assumption.

    I have a problem with such an approach because it shifts the burden onto the defense to disprove the existence of a necessary element of a crime, which I think is a violation of the defendant's rights. The prosecution should bear the onus of having to prove every element of the crime of rape, including a lack of consent.

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  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    I'm not sure I understand this post, are you saying that "being a woman" is one of those activities that is too dangerous to be doing in certain parts of town?

    What I said didn't really clearly make my point, which is basically that because it exists doesn't mean it's part of the culture as a whole.
    What the fuck? Rape culture can exist in two different cultures. In more than two. Hint: it does.

    I didn't say it didn't.

    I'm just saying it doesn't exist here as a majority.

    The general line of thinking seems to be that since it happens here and because some comedian jokes about it, then a majority of our society supports it.

    Right but there is a majority. Or were all nineteen of those boys individually psychopaths? No, of course not, do not even try to make that argument.

    There's a majority in that people firmly believe in traditional gender roles, with aggressive men and passive women. There's a majority in that people are super reluctant to identify as feminists. There's a majority in that people believe that you should put out on the third date or he's never going to call you again. There's a majority in that sex begins and ends with male penetration and male orgasm and women are seen as vessels for male sexual activity. There's a majority in that people ever--ever--say "she shouldn't be wearing that." There's a majority in that people believe women's bodies are public property. All of those things are contributing factors.

    lenore beadsman on
  • psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS
    edited October 2009
    I think date rape is the same as other kinds of rape, too. I think there's a culture that says "if he buys you dinner, you should probably put out," and teaches women that men get mad if they won't, and teaches men that that anger is legitimate. It isn't. Women are taught that they somehow owe men sex if the men do xyz. Nobody ever owes anybody sex.

    This is true, but that's a rather one sided view of things.

    Women also know that if a man invites you out for dinner, and it's not McDonalds, he's trying to get into your pants, there is no other reason. So if the woman doesn't want to have sex with him, she should refuse the free meal. If she keeps doing it, that makes her a problem. A man has no right to get mad that a woman doesn't sleep with him after a dinner. He does have a right to get mad if said woman is knowingly taking the free meals and using the situation.

    I have plenty of female friends that will use their sexuality to land favors at work, dinners (bought buy guys they have no intention of sleeping with but will egg them on), and free drinks.

    I don't know many guys that get mad because they didn't get laid. Most get mad when they realize the women are willing to string people along to get whatever they want and using sex as bait.

    psychotix on
  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Welp, can't find the article but someone else posted some evidence anyway.

    So this thing in Jersey, how exactly are they expected to prove that consent was given? A notarised time stamped letter of consent (I mean something like that would be pretty hard to force someone to do if they didn't want to) or what?

    How does it not run ramshod over the central basis of law (innocent until proven guilty)

    Leitner on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I think there's a culture that says "if he buys you dinner, you should probably put out," and teaches women that men get mad if they won't, and teaches men that that anger is legitimate. It isn't. Women are taught that they somehow owe men sex if the men do xyz. Nobody ever owes anybody sex.

    I think you're using examples from the 1960s again. There's no real cultural standard stating that women are supposed to put out if bought dinner.

    Indeed. It may occur in some circles, but to assume it occurs in all seems a bit, well, hyperbolic and cynical.

    Heartlash on
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  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Seems to be a lot of grand standing ended with "and if you don't agree you're part of the problem". Hate to kinda rain on the thesis here, but even my big barrel chested ass stops doing certain things if there's a hint of danger. You know, going to a big city and flashing cash, not going down seedy alley ways, not drawing attention to myself, not wearing ridiculously expensive clothing, etc. I avoid doing things like that when I'm in New Orleans at night because I don't want to get shot.

    That doesn't mean we're in some kind of culture that promotes violence because that happens.

    Bad things happen. Period. Be it theft, rape, murder, assault, etc. Do some people blame the victim? Yes, but those people are not indicative of society.

    If you want to see a real rape culture then go to the Congo. Don't try to highlight shitty parts of our society to paint the entire country as being of a certain mindset.

    Yeah man, this can only be a problem in one place, and it sure as shit isn't here.

    What the fuck? Rape culture can exist in two different cultures. In more than two. Hint: it does.

    I think his point was that a society where soldiers rape women an gunpoint and brag about it is more drastic than a society with embedded chauvinistic/misogynistic tenancies which may or may not lead to cases of rape.

    I'd like to pose this question. In order to live in a rape culture, do convicted rapists need to be considered respectable and/or legitimate in the eyes of the majority of society?

    No.

    So, can a society which largely condemns rapists still be a rape culture? If so, how?

    It condemns rape as much as it encourages it by using sex as a symbol for status and power.

    Zombiemambo on
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  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    psychotix wrote: »
    I think date rape is the same as other kinds of rape, too. I think there's a culture that says "if he buys you dinner, you should probably put out," and teaches women that men get mad if they won't, and teaches men that that anger is legitimate. It isn't. Women are taught that they somehow owe men sex if the men do xyz. Nobody ever owes anybody sex.

    This is true, but that's a rather one sided view of things.

    Women also know that if a man invites you out for dinner, and it's not McDonalds, he's trying to get into your pants, there is no other reason. So if the woman doesn't want to have sex with him, she should refuse the free meal. If she keeps doing it, that makes her a problem. A man has no right to get mad that a woman doesn't sleep with him after a dinner. He does have a right to get mad if said woman is knowingly taking the free meals and using the situation.

    I have plenty of female friends that will use their sexuality to land favors at work, dinners (bought buy guys they have no intention of sleeping with but will egg them on), and free drinks.

    I don't know many guys that get mad because they didn't get laid. Most get mad when they realize the women are willing to string people along to get whatever they want and using sex as bait.

    Jesus Christ I am adding this post to rapeculture.txt

    A woman is "a problem" if she wants to have dinner with a guy but not sleep with him

    What is wrong with you

    scrivenerjones on
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »

    Why isn't the default status "not consenting?" It is in New Jersey. The defense must prove that there was an affirmative declaration of consent, not just an absence of not-consent. Only yes means yes, rather than no means no.
    Under that standard, the default setting for any act of intercourse is rape. I see some major problems with that assumption.

    I have a problem with such an approach because it shifts the burden onto the defense to disprove the existence of a necessary element of a crime, which I think is a violation of the defendant's rights. The prosecution should bear the onus of having to prove every element of the crime of rape, including a lack of consent.

    But the default setting isn't that it's rape! You just have to say and hear "yes sex? this sounds great let's do it" and if it wasn't rape, you just don't go to the police afterwards. Easy as pie. It really isn't very hard to not rape somebody. Don't ever have sex with someone who isn't into it. Why would you want to anyway?

    lenore beadsman on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    I'm not sure I understand this post, are you saying that "being a woman" is one of those activities that is too dangerous to be doing in certain parts of town?

    What I said didn't really clearly make my point, which is basically that because it exists doesn't mean it's part of the culture as a whole.
    What the fuck? Rape culture can exist in two different cultures. In more than two. Hint: it does.

    I didn't say it didn't.

    I'm just saying it doesn't exist here as a majority.

    The general line of thinking seems to be that since it happens here and because some comedian jokes about it, then a majority of our society supports it.

    Right but there is a majority. Or were all nineteen of those boys individually psychopaths? No, of course not, do not even try to make that argument.

    There's a majority in that people firmly believe in traditional gender roles, with aggressive men and passive women. There's a majority in that people are super reluctant to identify as feminists. There's a majority in that people believe that you should put out on the third date or he's never going to call you again. There's a majority in that sex begins and ends with male penetration and male orgasm and women are seen as vessels for male sexual activity. There's a majority in that people ever--ever--say "she shouldn't be wearing that." There's a majority in that people believe women's bodies are public property. All of those things are contributing factors.

    Do you HONESTLY think most Americans, after hearing about what those boys did, would think "Gee, sounds good to me!"

    Of course not. The sentiment would more likely lean toward "Those guys are criminals and horrible human beings!"

    Heartlash on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Do you HONESTLY think most Americans, after hearing about what those boys did, would think "Gee, sounds good to me!"

    Of course not. The sentiment would more likely lean toward "Those guys are criminals and horrible human beings!"

    A substantial number of them would focus on her use of alcohol and her being initially willing or for even attending an event with that many boys.

    She will also have a hell of a time getting anyone who isn't a predator to date her now.

    Incenjucar on
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    I'm not sure I understand this post, are you saying that "being a woman" is one of those activities that is too dangerous to be doing in certain parts of town?

    What I said didn't really clearly make my point, which is basically that because it exists doesn't mean it's part of the culture as a whole.
    What the fuck? Rape culture can exist in two different cultures. In more than two. Hint: it does.

    I didn't say it didn't.

    I'm just saying it doesn't exist here as a majority.

    The general line of thinking seems to be that since it happens here and because some comedian jokes about it, then a majority of our society supports it.

    Right but there is a majority. Or were all nineteen of those boys individually psychopaths? No, of course not, do not even try to make that argument.

    There's a majority in that people firmly believe in traditional gender roles, with aggressive men and passive women. There's a majority in that people are super reluctant to identify as feminists. There's a majority in that people believe that you should put out on the third date or he's never going to call you again. There's a majority in that sex begins and ends with male penetration and male orgasm and women are seen as vessels for male sexual activity. There's a majority in that people ever--ever--say "she shouldn't be wearing that." There's a majority in that people believe women's bodies are public property. All of those things are contributing factors.

    Now you're just wrong.
    First, even if someone believes in traditional gender roles and thinks men are inherently superior, it doesn't automatically mean he thinks rape is a-okay.
    I'd also disagree with the majority thinking most if not all of those things you listed. Some no doubt do think those things, but definitely not the majority.

    TubularLuggage on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Kistra wrote: »
    Also, reporting a robbery doesn't leave the person who was robbed labeled as a "robbery victim" for the rest of their lives. Being a "rape victim" is something that tends to label women for the rest of their lives, and is even used to deny them health insurance.

    I forgot about this.
    That's a pretty grotesque example of victim blaming--or, if not literally blaming, than continued victimization.

    Hachface on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2009

    Right but there is a majority. Or were all nineteen of those boys individually psychopaths? No, of course not, do not even try to make that argument.


    The kids in the news story in the OP are hardly representative of the majority.
    There's a majority in that people firmly believe in traditional gender roles, with aggressive men and passive women. There's a majority in that people are super reluctant to identify as feminists. There's a majority in that people believe that you should put out on the third date or he's never going to call you again.

    That is indicative of a sexualized society. I would say many people believe traditional gender roles to fall in line with the idea of a Nuclear Family. Rape is not a tenet of the Nuclear Family.
    There's a majority in that sex begins and ends with male penetration and male orgasm and women are seen as vessels for male sexual activity. There's a majority in that people ever--ever--say "she shouldn't be wearing that." There's a majority in that people believe women's bodies are public property. All of those things are contributing factors.

    Citation please.

    Again, you're assuming that because it happens then it applies to everyone.

    Sheep on
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  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    psychotix wrote: »
    I think date rape is the same as other kinds of rape, too. I think there's a culture that says "if he buys you dinner, you should probably put out," and teaches women that men get mad if they won't, and teaches men that that anger is legitimate. It isn't. Women are taught that they somehow owe men sex if the men do xyz. Nobody ever owes anybody sex.

    This is true, but that's a rather one sided view of things.

    Women also know that if a man invites you out for dinner, and it's not McDonalds, he's trying to get into your pants, there is no other reason. So if the woman doesn't want to have sex with him, she should refuse the free meal. If she keeps doing it, that makes her a problem. A man has no right to get mad that a woman doesn't sleep with him after a dinner. He does have a right to get mad if said woman is knowingly taking the free meals and using the situation.

    I have plenty of female friends that will use their sexuality to land favors at work, dinners (bought buy guys they have no intention of sleeping with but will egg them on), and free drinks.

    I don't know many guys that get mad because they didn't get laid. Most get mad when they realize the women are willing to string people along to get whatever they want and using sex as bait.

    Jesus Christ I am adding this post to rapeculture.txt

    A woman is "a problem" if she wants to have dinner with a guy but not sleep with him

    What is wrong with you

    I think his last statement may clarify that's not exactly what he meant.

    No, a woman should not be considered "a problem" if she wants to date a guy but doesn't want to have sex.

    Yes, it is a problem if she's explicitly using her sexuality to extort things from the guy.

    And no, it's not only women that are able to use their sexuality as a means of extortion.

    And no, it's not justification for having sex with him/her against his/her will.

    Chanus on
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  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Do you HONESTLY think most Americans, after hearing about what those boys did, would think "Gee, sounds good to me!"

    Of course not. The sentiment would more likely lean toward "Those guys are criminals and horrible human beings!"

    A substantial number of them would focus on her use of alcohol and her being initially willing or for even attending an event with that many boys.

    She will also have a hell of a time getting anyone who isn't a predator to date her now.

    Bleh, this is why I tend to shy away from discussions about something as large as society. You and I both just committed the same logical fallacy, neither one of us can prove what we just said. We operate under anecdotal and observational assumptions.

    Heartlash on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The act of treating dinner as payment for prostitution and having expectations from it is part of the rape culture issue.

    Incenjucar on
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    ...

    adytum on
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  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Leitner wrote: »
    Welp, can't find the article but someone else posted some evidence anyway.

    So this thing in Jersey, how exactly are they expected to prove that consent was given? A notarised time stamped letter of consent (I mean something like that would be pretty hard to force someone to do if they didn't want to) or what?

    How does it not run ramshod over the central basis of law (innocent until proven guilty)

    The new jersey law dictates that if the defendant knew the sex happened without freely given yes-means-yes permission, then the defendant should be found guilty (as opposed to if the defendant had sex without hearing the word no. some victims may be too stunned to speak, for example, or are afraid that if they resist a rape will turn into a rape-murder). If the defendant -believed- that the sex happened with same yes-means-yes permission, then the prosecution must prove that the defendant's belief was unreasonable.

    lenore beadsman on
  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    The act of treating dinner as payment for prostitution and having expectations from it is part of the rape culture issue.

    Yes.

    Chanus on
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  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Kistra wrote: »
    Also, reporting a robbery doesn't leave the person who was robbed labeled as a "robbery victim" for the rest of their lives. Being a "rape victim" is something that tends to label women for the rest of their lives, and is even used to deny them health insurance.

    I forgot about this.
    That's a pretty grotesque example of victim blaming--or, if not literally blaming, than continued victimization.

    Oh, it's absolutely appalling, but I think it's more a case of American insurance companies using any excuse they possibly can to deny coverage than anything else.

    TubularLuggage on
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    logic7 wrote: »
    I've often complained to my wife about how overly sexualized young girls clothing is these days.

    a few years ago, we started seeing little girls shorts and sweats with slogans and whatnot in huge print across the butt area of the garment. My first reaction was that it focuses attention to the posterior end of little girls and inadvertently (or maybe intentionaly) makes everyone within eyesight stare at them. I said this was a bad idea and designers need to quit. Next, while shopping for my girls with the wife, we started to notice "sexy" underwear for little girls. The fuck does an 8 year old need low-rise bikini panties for??? That shit was waaaaaaay over the top and the first thing I could think of was some pedo jerking to a JC Penny catalog while staring at little girl models in these things. Finally... Skinny jeans. It's bad enough wne guys wear 'em, but when a developing 14-17 year old girl is in them along with skin tight shirts, it's inviting grown ass men that wouldn't otherwise stare at these teenagers to oogle them. I've voiced my distaste for them, yet my wife doesn't see anything wrong with them and continues to buy them for my oldest girl (she's 15). Also, girls shorts are getting shorter and shorter. These days, you almost CAN'T buy anything that's not skin tight and ultra short (to the point of all but showing a hint of ass cheek) for teenage girls anymore. Thankfully, schools started banning thong underwear on teenage girls... well, visible whale-tails anyways. I'm pretty sure the girls are still wearing them, but what the fuck for??? Low Rise jeans in juniors sizes and half tops for teens only make it worse.

    And this shit is available at EVERY Walmart in the U.S. In fact, Walmart pretty much doesn't sell anything for teenage girls that's NOT sexually charged.

    All of this fosters an environment where teenage girls, and even pre-teens, are seen by their peers and some grown ass men as sexual objects. This can lead to an increase in the incidents of rape among teenagers and pedos looking to get that 16 year old girl next door drunk so he can "score".

    While I agree with you, by and large, regarding the availability and prevalence of...sexualized, I guess, for lack of a better term, clothing for young women I'm not sure that it's really a matter of big companies wanting to sexualize little girls.

    Teen girls see adult women wearing these clothes in movies, on TV, in music videos, on the street, etc. The women wearing the clothes look good and attract attention, so the teen girls want to wear those clothes, too. The teen girl's little sister sees her big sister, or her mother, or her aunt or cousin, wearing these clothes and wants to emulate her. When women primarily wore dresses and demure blouses, little girls wore dresses and demure blouses. When women primarily wore jeans and more form-fitting blouses, little girls started wearing jeans and more fitted blouses. Now women wear a lot of skinny, low-rise, hip-hugging shorts cut off an inch below the butt-cheek with halter tops or skin-tight t-shirts. Guess what little girls want to wear? And as long as little girls want them, some mothers will buy them, and as long as mothers want to buy them...someone's going to sell them.

    I'm not saying it's good but I don't think it's either a sick attempt at sexualizing children on the part of marketing executives or even surprising.

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