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Let's talk about rape culture.

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Posts

  • SaammielSaammiel Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    OK I get what you are going for, but this is really a distinction without a difference for the purposes of this discussion. A culture where rape survivors can expect to be described as sluts and aspiring porn stars at trial is a rape culture, regardless of the specific legal theory behind it. As I understand it, your original claim was that this doesn't happen in the US, when it very clearly does.

    Who cares what people say during trial? You can use almost any stupid defence you want within bounds of the judge's orders to try and get yourself off the hook, it is part and parcel of an adversarial justice system. What you would need to provide is evidence that this sort of defence is actually effective in current society. Which is sorely lacking.

    Saammiel on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    I still want to know what's not a "rape culture". Or is all culture "rape culture" because men participate in it? Is this just a natural continuation of the "all sex is rape" line of thinking? That's what I'm getting from a lot of these posts.

    Please feel free to correct me. I think rape is horrible, and should be punished severely, but unfortunately it's a crime that is difficult to prove and prosecute and I enjoy living in a free society where men and women are innocent until proven guilty.
    You're setting up some impressive strawmen here. People who describe rape culture think all sex is rape, think all men are rapists, and oppose due process rights of the accused. Those are pretty strong claims, and ones that I don't think are borne out by any of the comments in the thread.

    As for your question, the easy answer is that any feminist (sub)culture is a non-rape or anti-rape culture. And there's nothing that stops men from being feminists.

    Please name some, so I'll have an idea of what's being presented.

    And I wasn't trying to make strawmen arguments. I just honestly don't understand how people can see the same culture I do, and call it a rape culture.

    Through thorny, selective lenses. There are plenty of examples of rape culture in the US for them to chose from. I think there's just a false exaggeration that occurs. A "these 15 guys thought they were doing something acceptable!" = society finds it acceptable.

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    But tons of people play sports?

    Again, you're implying that most men, even if they don't commit rape or sexual abuse, WANT to commit rape or sexual abuse.

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    If there's encouragement or protection, it's on a base level that doesn't really seep into culture as a whole. Calling it "rape culture" elevates it to a level that's indicative of a pandemic. Criminal organizations don't exist in a "Theft and murder culture" because society as a whole condemns them and the law prosecutes them. Drug users aren't a part of some "drug culture".

    Are you serious? You don't think there's a mafia culture or even a gansta/thug culture? You don't think there's a DRUG culture? Have you ever seen a stoner comedy or a High Times magazine?

    flamebroiledchicken on
    y59kydgzuja4.png
  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    That's his issue, I think.

    Some of the arguments/statements here could easily be interpreted that rape is the culture, not a facet of it, or a concurrent aspect... thus people aren't "getting it". Your sports analogy there is one of the clearest explanations of what people are actually meaning when they say "rape culture" I've seen in this thread.

    Chanus on
    **Winner Softest and Most Comfy Hugs Award Summer 2018**

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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    SkyGheNe wrote: »
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    I have no idea what you're saying here. We should treat rape as normal? What will that help?

    The ultimate culmination of western culture is the rapist? Really? That's what our culture points to as an ideal? Then why are there no rapist folk-heroes? Why is rape universally condemned? If rape were looked upon as the ultimate success of the male dominant mentality then why would we consider it twisted and abnormal?

    A murderer is a person who killed someone. They are not necessarily in any other manner abnormal, but they killed someone. That makes them abnormal in that the average, normal person has never killed anyone. If rape is an abnormal behavior then a rapist is, by definition, an abnormal person. And if you think that rape is a normal, expected behavior then...well, I don't even know what then because that's just bizarre to me.

    I believe you misunderstood what he was saying, but instead of putting words in his mouth, I assume he'll come back to help you understand.

    He seems to be saying that society produces an attitude about the male psyche that is conducive to rape and sexual abuse, no?

    I want to assume that is not what he's saying because it leads to the 'every man is a rapist' scenario that seems to be popular in a lot of rape discussions nowadays. If rape is a cultural artifact then there is no compelling reason I can see why the same culture would produce a universal denouncement of rape, why it would treat it as the violent crime that it is, or why so many male members of the culture would not be rapists. Even more: if men rape women because our culture says that they should, why do men rape men? Why do women rape men? Why do women rape other women?

    If this violent crime is a product of society and is best combated by assuming that the individual is merely acting on their cultural teachings, what does that say about every other violent crime? Should we assume that all murderers are merely acting on the drives of a murder-culture? That muggers are acting out of desire to conform to mugger-culture?

    Rapists have a fundamental disconnect with reality in that they fail to recognize the personal rights of another individual. If a culture de-emphasizes personal rights to the extent that it can, in an otherwise average individual, produce the belief that others have no personal rights then that should be the majority view. Even as horrible as the 1-in-6 statistic is, and even assuming that that's 1-in-6 women will be raped rather than any other sexual harassment type crime, that's still 15% of women. 85% of women will never be sexually assaulted. If our culture is so corrupt and so twisted that it routinely produces individuals who are perfectly healthy psychologically but do not respect women's personal rights, why is it such a minority?

    CptHamilton on
    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    But tons of people play sports?

    Again, you're implying that most men, even if they don't commit rape or sexual abuse, WANT to commit rape or sexual abuse.

    It's not that specific. It's more the idea that rape is a result of underlying cultural tendencies which may or may not be innocuous on their own.

    Chanus on
    **Winner Softest and Most Comfy Hugs Award Summer 2018**

    Blueberrywerewlf on the Sony Anime Games Box | BluberryWerewlf on the BroBone
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    I have no idea what you're saying here.

    This. If you think rape is okay, and/or commit a rape, you are a warped twisted person. They're not just a product of our culture, because the majority of people within that same culture condemn it.
    I don't care if they seemed normal day to day. If someone doesn't think rape is unacceptable, they aren't all there.

    TubularLuggage on
  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    But tons of people play sports?

    Again, you're implying that most men, even if they don't commit rape or sexual abuse, WANT to commit rape or sexual abuse.

    No, he's implying that our society has a cultural narrative in which men are dominant and women are passive, and this leads to things like date rape and "she's a slut, she deserved it" and "you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want some" and etc etc etc.

    flamebroiledchicken on
    y59kydgzuja4.png
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    If there's encouragement or protection, it's on a base level that doesn't really seep into culture as a whole. Calling it "rape culture" elevates it to a level that's indicative of a pandemic. Criminal organizations don't exist in a "Theft and murder culture" because society as a whole condemns them and the law prosecutes them. Drug users aren't a part of some "drug culture".

    Are you serious? You don't think there's a mafia culture or even a gansta/thug culture? You don't think there's a DRUG culture? Have you ever seen a stoner comedy or a High Times magazine?

    The OP asked: "So tell me, PA--do we live in a rape culture?"

    Doesn't quite translate into a "America is a Mafia Culture" or a "America is a Drug Culture", though. There are furries in America, perhaps "America is a Furry Culture"?

    Brolo on
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Saammiel wrote: »
    OK I get what you are going for, but this is really a distinction without a difference for the purposes of this discussion. A culture where rape survivors can expect to be described as sluts and aspiring porn stars at trial is a rape culture, regardless of the specific legal theory behind it. As I understand it, your original claim was that this doesn't happen in the US, when it very clearly does.

    Who cares what people say during trial? You can use almost any stupid defence you want within bounds of the judge's orders to try and get yourself off the hook, it is part and parcel of an adversarial justice system. What you would need to provide is evidence that this sort of defence is actually effective in current society. Which is sorely lacking.

    Well the defense attorneys managed to throw up enough confusion and mistrust of Jane Doe that the jury deadlocked--despite videotaped evidence of the defendants raping and sodomizing her unconscious body. Mission accomplished!

    But more important than that, they managed to send a clear message of what would happen to anyone else who dared report a rape, especially if the rapist is rich and well-connected. That is rape culture.

    scrivenerjones on
  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    I have no idea what you're saying here.

    This. If you think rape is okay, and/or commit a rape, you are a warped twisted person. They're not just a product of our culture, because the majority of people within that same culture condemn it.
    I don't care if they seemed normal day to day. If someone doesn't think rape is unacceptable, they aren't all there.

    It's the difference between a chemical brain disorder and an ingrained set of incorrect judgment.

    Chanus on
    **Winner Softest and Most Comfy Hugs Award Summer 2018**

    Blueberrywerewlf on the Sony Anime Games Box | BluberryWerewlf on the BroBone
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Even rapists think rape is unacceptable. In Diana Sculley's book Understanding Sexual Violence, she interviews convicted rapists and asks them to talk to her about their crime. Even "violent rapists" (i use quotes because all rape is violent. i'm talking about physical force in addition to other coercive techniques here) think what they did isn't rape. Even if the victim was screaming and saying no, they convinced themselves in their minds that she actually kind of liked it.

    You can simultaneously denounce rape and participate in rape culture.

    lenore beadsman on
  • geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    But tons of people play sports?

    Again, you're implying that most men, even if they don't commit rape or sexual abuse, WANT to commit rape or sexual abuse.

    No, he's implying that our society has a cultural narrative in which men are dominant and women are passive, and this leads to things like date rape and "she's a slut, she deserved it" and "you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want some" and etc etc etc.

    So then . . it boils down to being completely against power imbalances during sex? Or something?

    You people took way too many sociology classes in college. Rape Culture is stupid bullshit, period.

    geckahn on
  • aaronsedgeaaronsedge __BANNED USERS
    edited October 2009
    Saammiel wrote: »
    OK I get what you are going for, but this is really a distinction without a difference for the purposes of this discussion. A culture where rape survivors can expect to be described as sluts and aspiring porn stars at trial is a rape culture, regardless of the specific legal theory behind it. As I understand it, your original claim was that this doesn't happen in the US, when it very clearly does.

    Who cares what people say during trial? You can use almost any stupid defence you want within bounds of the judge's orders to try and get yourself off the hook, it is part and parcel of an adversarial justice system. What you would need to provide is evidence that this sort of defence is actually effective in current society. Which is sorely lacking.

    Well the defense attorneys managed to throw up enough confusion and mistrust of Jane Doe that the jury deadlocked--despite videotaped evidence of the defendants raping and sodomizing her unconscious body. Mission accomplished!

    But more important than that, they managed to send a clear message of what would happen to anyone else who dared report a rape, especially if the rapist is rich and well-connected. That is rape culture.

    I see that as another fucked up thing in a fucked up system more than a culture.

    aaronsedge on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Munch wrote: »
    Only if there are some tig ol' bitties on the cover know'm sayin'?
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    But tons of people play sports?

    Again, you're implying that most men, even if they don't commit rape or sexual abuse, WANT to commit rape or sexual abuse.

    No, he's implying that our society has a cultural narrative in which men are dominant and women are passive, and this leads to things like date rape and "she's a slut, she deserved it" and "you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want some" and etc etc etc.

    Makes sense I suppose. Do you consider those people a byproduct or a conclusion of said culture? That is to say, does such a culture primarily create those people? Or are they an outlier?

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    geckahn wrote: »
    So then . . it boils down to being completely against power imbalances during sex? Or something?

    You people took way too many sociology classes in college. Rape Culture is stupid bullshit, period.

    Seems like you are bad at reading posts, and also ignorant. Cheers.

    scrivenerjones on
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    geckahn wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    But tons of people play sports?

    Again, you're implying that most men, even if they don't commit rape or sexual abuse, WANT to commit rape or sexual abuse.

    No, he's implying that our society has a cultural narrative in which men are dominant and women are passive, and this leads to things like date rape and "she's a slut, she deserved it" and "you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want some" and etc etc etc.

    So then . . it boils down to being completely against power imbalances during sex? Or something?

    You people took way too many sociology classes in college. Rape Culture is stupid bullshit, period.

    That power imbalance extends beyond just sex.

    It is not bullshit. It is well documented. Sociology is sorta important, as is anthropology. Don't dismiss so leisurely.

    SkyGheNe on
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    I have no idea what you're saying here.

    This. If you think rape is okay, and/or commit a rape, you are a warped twisted person. They're not just a product of our culture, because the majority of people within that same culture condemn it.
    I don't care if they seemed normal day to day. If someone doesn't think rape is unacceptable, they aren't all there.

    It's the difference between a chemical brain disorder and an ingrained set of incorrect judgment.

    The thing is, someone would have to be warped to come to the conclusion that rape is okay, even with a highly sexualized culture. It's pretty plainly stated that rape is not acceptable in our culture. Saying a bunch of sexy imagery can turn a normal person into a rapist is like saying video games can turn a normal person into a murderer. It's bullshit in both cases.

    TubularLuggage on
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    aaronsedge wrote: »
    Saammiel wrote: »
    OK I get what you are going for, but this is really a distinction without a difference for the purposes of this discussion. A culture where rape survivors can expect to be described as sluts and aspiring porn stars at trial is a rape culture, regardless of the specific legal theory behind it. As I understand it, your original claim was that this doesn't happen in the US, when it very clearly does.

    Who cares what people say during trial? You can use almost any stupid defence you want within bounds of the judge's orders to try and get yourself off the hook, it is part and parcel of an adversarial justice system. What you would need to provide is evidence that this sort of defence is actually effective in current society. Which is sorely lacking.

    Well the defense attorneys managed to throw up enough confusion and mistrust of Jane Doe that the jury deadlocked--despite videotaped evidence of the defendants raping and sodomizing her unconscious body. Mission accomplished!

    But more important than that, they managed to send a clear message of what would happen to anyone else who dared report a rape, especially if the rapist is rich and well-connected. That is rape culture.

    I see that as another fucked up thing in a fucked up system more than a culture.

    You're almost there, the next step is realizing that the "system" and the "culture" are inextricably linked :)

    scrivenerjones on
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    aaronsedge wrote: »

    I see that as another fucked up thing in a fucked up system more than a culture.

    Buh? What is a fucked up system if not a culture?

    lenore beadsman on
  • geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Even rapists think rape is unacceptable. In Diane Sculley's book Understanding Sexual Violence, she interviews convicted rapists and asks them to talk to her about their crime. Even "violent rapists" (i use quotes because all rape is violent. i'm talking about physical force in addition to other coercive techniques here) think what they did isn't rape. Even if the victim was screaming and saying no, they convinced themselves in their minds that she actually kind of liked it.

    You can simultaneously denounce rape and participate in rape culture.

    holy shit, people who do bad things mentally find ways into thinking that they didn't do bad things?

    I have never heard of this phenomenon before.
    Seems like you are bad at reading posts, and also ignorant. Cheers.

    Not ignorant, no. I just have little patience for people who want to paint entire swathes of people as permissive and encouraging of rape when that is absolutely not the case

    geckahn on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    geckahn wrote: »
    So then . . it boils down to being completely against power imbalances during sex? Or something?

    You people took way too many sociology classes in college. Rape Culture is stupid bullshit, period.

    You're being ignorant.

    Expressions of power, within mutual consent, during sexual activity, is fine. I've dated Submissive Gaspers for crying out loud, and I'm very openly a feminist.

    Kinks and fetishes are not the same as cultural narratives of power. They may STEM from them, but they are not automatically part of the structure.

    Incenjucar on
  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    edited October 2009
    The thing is, someone would have to be warped to come to the conclusion that rape is okay, even with a highly sexualized culture. It's pretty plainly stated that rape is not acceptable in our culture. Saying a bunch of sexy imagery can turn a normal person into a rapist is like saying video games can turn a normal person into a murderer. It's bullshit in both cases.
    A bunch of sexy imagery can convince a person that what he is doing "isn't really rape" though.

    Grid System on
  • psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS
    edited October 2009
    aaronsedge wrote: »
    Saammiel wrote: »
    OK I get what you are going for, but this is really a distinction without a difference for the purposes of this discussion. A culture where rape survivors can expect to be described as sluts and aspiring porn stars at trial is a rape culture, regardless of the specific legal theory behind it. As I understand it, your original claim was that this doesn't happen in the US, when it very clearly does.

    Who cares what people say during trial? You can use almost any stupid defence you want within bounds of the judge's orders to try and get yourself off the hook, it is part and parcel of an adversarial justice system. What you would need to provide is evidence that this sort of defence is actually effective in current society. Which is sorely lacking.

    Well the defense attorneys managed to throw up enough confusion and mistrust of Jane Doe that the jury deadlocked--despite videotaped evidence of the defendants raping and sodomizing her unconscious body. Mission accomplished!

    But more important than that, they managed to send a clear message of what would happen to anyone else who dared report a rape, especially if the rapist is rich and well-connected. That is rape culture.

    I see that as another fucked up thing in a fucked up system more than a culture.

    You're almost there, the next step is realizing that the "system" and the "culture" are inextricably linked :)

    In which case it's not a rape culture.

    It's a culture of the rich, famous, well connected, and powerful getting what they want while screwing over everybody else.

    Trying to pick one specific aspect of it, and then claim it's all about that. Means you don't give a damn about the other aspects.

    psychotix on
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The thing is, someone would have to be warped to come to the conclusion that rape is okay, even with a highly sexualized culture. It's pretty plainly stated that rape is not acceptable in our culture. Saying a bunch of sexy imagery can turn a normal person into a rapist is like saying video games can turn a normal person into a murderer. It's bullshit in both cases.
    A bunch of sexy imagery can convince a person that what he is doing "isn't really rape" though.

    Again, if they're a mentally healthy person, no it can't.

    TubularLuggage on
  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    edited October 2009
    geckahn wrote: »
    Not ignorant, no. I just have little patience for people who want to paint entire swathes of people as permissive and encouraging of rape when that is absolutely not the case
    Could you maybe throw down some points in support of your position instead of sticking your fingers in your ears?

    Grid System on
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    geckahn wrote: »
    Seems like you are bad at reading posts, and also ignorant. Cheers.

    Not ignorant, no. I just have little patience for people who want to paint entire swathes of people as permissive and encouraging of rape when that is absolutely not the case

    I guess I am not sure how you could read the swathes of examples of how the rape culture operates in this thread and come away with "being completely against power imbalances during sex."

    scrivenerjones on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The thing is, someone would have to be warped to come to the conclusion that rape is okay, even with a highly sexualized culture. It's pretty plainly stated that rape is not acceptable in our culture. Saying a bunch of sexy imagery can turn a normal person into a rapist is like saying video games can turn a normal person into a murderer. It's bullshit in both cases.
    A bunch of sexy imagery can convince a person that what he is doing "isn't really rape" though.

    It can, yes. The question is would contemporary society accept that as an excuse.

    I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest that they would.

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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The thing is, someone would have to be warped to come to the conclusion that rape is okay, even with a highly sexualized culture. It's pretty plainly stated that rape is not acceptable in our culture. Saying a bunch of sexy imagery can turn a normal person into a rapist is like saying video games can turn a normal person into a murderer. It's bullshit in both cases.
    A bunch of sexy imagery can convince a person that what he is doing "isn't really rape" though.

    Again, if they're a mentally healthy person, no it can't.

    And if they're mentally unhealthy, how did they become mentally unhealthy?

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    psychotix wrote: »
    In which case it's not a rape culture.

    It's a culture of the rich, famous, well connected, and powerful getting what they want while screwing over everybody else.

    Trying to pick one specific aspect of it, and then claim it's all about that. Means you don't give a damn about the other aspects.

    The fact that two power-seeking structures collided does not negate the less-powerful one.

    Incenjucar on
  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    But tons of people play sports?

    Again, you're implying that most men, even if they don't commit rape or sexual abuse, WANT to commit rape or sexual abuse.

    No, he's implying that our society has a cultural narrative in which men are dominant and women are passive, and this leads to things like date rape and "she's a slut, she deserved it" and "you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want some" and etc etc etc.

    Makes sense I suppose. Do you consider those people a byproduct or a conclusion of said culture? That is to say, does such a culture primarily create those people? Or are they an outlier?

    I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.

    Look, to say "We live in a rape culture" is not to say that all men are rapists, or even that the majority of men are rapists, or have rape impulses. It is not to say that all sex is rape, or that society thinks rape is great.

    It is simply to say that we live in a culture in which rape is often trivialized, violence is often eroticized, and sex is often conflated with conquest.

    That's all.

    flamebroiledchicken on
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  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    edited October 2009
    The thing is, someone would have to be warped to come to the conclusion that rape is okay, even with a highly sexualized culture. It's pretty plainly stated that rape is not acceptable in our culture. Saying a bunch of sexy imagery can turn a normal person into a rapist is like saying video games can turn a normal person into a murderer. It's bullshit in both cases.
    A bunch of sexy imagery can convince a person that what he is doing "isn't really rape" though.

    Again, if they're a mentally healthy person, no it can't.
    Well, that's convenient, isn't it?

    Grid System on
  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Leitner wrote: »
    And if what I have said about not saying no offends a rape victim on this forum, I apologize. (I also think that saying "don't you think that hurts actual victims?" is a classic derailing tactic, so I don't want to spend too much time on this point.)

    Not talking about you, I'm talking about the article you quoted. Which in defense of the change used the example of women (subtle sexism lol, clearly a woman can never be sexally violent or have power over a man) 'too stunned' to say no? The intimidated thing makes sense. But I can't ever imagine a case in which someone is simply too stunned to do anything to stop them or refuse consent.

    Maybe it's just shockingly poorly worded and refering to a possble situation I'm missing?

    Sorry, I know this is old, this thread is moving incredibly fast.

    But you are wrong. You can't imagine a situation where a woman is thinking, but he's a nice guy, I've known him for years, I've seen him treat his girlfriends with respect, I must be dreaming, or I've drunk too much and I'm hallucinating. Or just terrified by the look in his eyes.

    This ties into the other post that people were liming in it's entirety (and if I could multiquote it I would put it here).

    Guys that commit sexual violence aren't necessarily weirdos, they aren't strangers, they aren't people with social problems. In a lot of cases they are acquaintances, they are nice guys, they are neigbors, they are co-workers. Rape, in general is the obvious case of sexual violence. Other things can be subtle. Or confusing.

    Would you call the police if a co-worker kissed you on the mouth on new year's eve? What if you weren't sure if he just grabbed your boob or was trying to grab some papers and missed. What if he had done it three times this week and now you are sure, but you are worried that the three times he did it previously and you didn't say anything will imply consent? What if you worked to be seen as just another person in the office and not treated differently for being female, would you be less likely to speak up?

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  • aaronsedgeaaronsedge __BANNED USERS
    edited October 2009
    aaronsedge wrote: »

    I see that as another fucked up thing in a fucked up system more than a culture.

    Buh? What is a fucked up system if not a culture?

    I just mean I don't see it as a culture. I mean, I guess I could see it linked to a sex fueled society. Ya know, t.v. adds, movies, other media etc that cause or influence it, but then I feel like I'm getting a little close to Laura Ingraham. That just seems too generalized to call it a rape culture. More like a culture that has fucked up things in it like rape and rapist getting away with rape by blaming the victim, which is also a fucked up thing.

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  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    The thing is, someone would have to be warped to come to the conclusion that rape is okay, even with a highly sexualized culture. It's pretty plainly stated that rape is not acceptable in our culture. Saying a bunch of sexy imagery can turn a normal person into a rapist is like saying video games can turn a normal person into a murderer. It's bullshit in both cases.
    A bunch of sexy imagery can convince a person that what he is doing "isn't really rape" though.

    It can, yes. The question is would contemporary society accept that as an excuse.

    I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest that they would.

    Your focus on post-rape reactions is far too narrow, and too late in a very real sense. If the imagery is implicated in some meaningful way in a rape, it doesn't matter how loudly we yell at the perpretrator afterwards. The victim was still raped, and we can't fix that.

    Grid System on
  • geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Let's say, hypothetically, that I objectify women purely for sex. I literally cannot perceive any real value that is specific to women other than their ability to provide sexual satisfaction. Sure, they can run errands or prepare food, but most men (and certain well-trained chimpanzees) can do that too, so these things don't make a female uniquely valuable. In my mind, women are simply sausage wallets to be used for sexual purposes, and should be pacified or ignored to the point of irrelevance in all other situations. Because of this worldview, the only way I can evaluate women is based on their perceived sexual worth, and I rank them accordingly.

    Okay, so I have objectified women and lumped them in categories. Now let's say that every time I interact with a woman for sex, it is with a consenting partner. No trickery, no physical assault, no roofies in the drink. Heads up, consentual sex.

    How does that create a legitimate connection to rape culture? The answer is: it doesn't. It's misogynistic, it's callous, and it probably hurts some feelings, but it isn't rape culture.

    Sure, you can say that people who propogate rape culture also objectify women and categorize them, so the concepts are linked. That's like saying that the people who propogate it like sex, so the concept of liking sex is now linked to rape culture.

    And that, my friend, is what we call "hippy logic".

    geckahn on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Well the defense attorneys managed to throw up enough confusion and mistrust of Jane Doe that the jury deadlocked--despite videotaped evidence of the defendants raping and sodomizing her unconscious body. Mission accomplished!
    Which just shows that if a defendant's family and a shady defense attorney are willing to push the line of decency and legal ethics, they can get a hung jury. Even with all of that, the perps aren't walking- they have to face another trial.
    But more important than that, they managed to send a clear message of what would happen to anyone else who dared report a rape, especially if the rapist is rich and well-connected. That is rape culture.
    You're taking an extreme outlier and trying to claim it is representative of the mainstream. OJ Simpson, through a combination of money, celebrity and incompetent prosecution, was able to get away with a double homicide. Does that mean we live in a murder culture?

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    geckahn wrote: »
    And that, my friend, is what we call "hippy logic".

    The jackassery of an isolated individual does not constitute a culture.

    As you would be able to figure out if you were capable of "hippy logic."

    Incenjucar on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    But tons of people play sports?

    Again, you're implying that most men, even if they don't commit rape or sexual abuse, WANT to commit rape or sexual abuse.

    No, he's implying that our society has a cultural narrative in which men are dominant and women are passive, and this leads to things like date rape and "she's a slut, she deserved it" and "you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want some" and etc etc etc.

    Makes sense I suppose. Do you consider those people a byproduct or a conclusion of said culture? That is to say, does such a culture primarily create those people? Or are they an outlier?

    I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.

    Look, to say "We live in a rape culture" is not to say that all men are rapists, or even that the majority of men are rapists, or have rape impulses. It is not to say that all sex is rape, or that society thinks rape is great.

    It is simply to say that we live in a culture in which rape is often trivialized, violence is often eroticized, and sex is often conflated with conquest.

    That's all.

    That makes more sense than:
    a culture in which rape and other sexual violence (usually against women) are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or encourage sexualized violence.

    I think there are significant differences between what you said and the above OP quote. Namely, sexual abuse/rape being both "common" and "encouraged". Your definition seems to deal with a sort of soft encouragement. Furthermore, there's no guarantee that the majority of society even participates in said soft encouragement. The evidence is only anecdotal or observational.

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