Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Let's talk about rape culture.

13468942

Posts

  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, though, can you prove that society, by and large, would assess the behavior of the boys as appropriate? Excluding anything about the girl. If the question is simply "Did these boys act in a manner which is acceptable?" How do you think people would respond?

    :?

    You're asking the wrong question.

    People tend to add qualifiers to the responses, though.

    "Oh I don't agree with it, but she was asking for it! And you know boys will be boys!"

    Are you actually suggesting that any notable percentage of people would use a "boys will be boys" excuse in relation to gang rape? And I thought I was cynical.

    TubularLuggage on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, though, can you prove that society, by and large, would assess the behavior of the boys as appropriate? Excluding anything about the girl. If the question is simply "Did these boys act in a manner which is acceptable?" How do you think people would respond?

    :?

    You're asking the wrong question.

    People tend to add qualifiers to the responses, though.

    "Oh I don't agree with it, but she was asking for it! And you know boys will be boys!"

    Well, rape culture is supposed to accept the actions of those who perpetuate sexual violence, so the question has relevance.

    As to the qualifiers, I still think you're making assumptions.

    On a separate note, do you assume that most men want to rape women? Or that people assume that most men want to rape women?

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Am I the only one who understands what psychotix is saying?

    Chanus on
    **Winner Softest and Most Comfy Hugs Award Summer 2018**

    Blueberrywerewlf on the Sony Anime Games Box | BluberryWerewlf on the BroBone
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Are you actually suggesting that any notable percentage of people would use a "boys will be boys" excuse in relation to gang rape? And I thought I was cynical.

    If you don't think the world is full of fuckwits you should read more of the political threads.

    Incenjucar on
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Leitner wrote: »

    That doesn't move the goalposts at all. That is if we're taking believed yes - means -yes to include clear non-verbal consent. How does that help prosecute more rapists? And I'm sorry but 'too stunned' to say no? Isn't that a tad offensive to actual rape victims?

    It may not help prosecute more rapists, but yes-means-yes is a better measure of when something is rape than no-means-no, because it definitely is possible to be too afraid to say no or fight back.

    And if what I have said about not saying no offends a rape victim on this forum, I apologize. (I also think that saying "don't you think that hurts actual victims?" is a classic derailing tactic, so I don't want to spend too much time on this point.)

    I don't pretend to speak for all sexual assault survivors, but this is a pretty common occurence. And Harriet Jacobs at Fugitivus has a nice post about the dynamic of rape victims who don't say no. It's because women are taught to be demure, and "nice," and meek, and not to start fights, and to please others, and so instead of saying NO GTFO YOU CREEP they just play along because they've been taught these perverted fucked up rules their whole lives.

    (hint: that's part of rape culture too)

    lenore beadsman on
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    ...

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    Am I the only one who understands what psychotix is saying?

    No, I understand what he's saying too, and agree with him.

    TubularLuggage on
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    logic7 wrote: »
    Okay, so in the scenario of women "using their sexuality" to get drinks and dinner and stuff from men:

    Why is it that women's sexuality is powerful in this way? What makes it so valuable in a way that men's sexuality presumably isn't?

    I remember a case not too long ago where a teenage girl used the promis of sex as a lure to have a boy killed. I'll look for the case online. That kid's face is pretty much burned in my head 'cause I've had friends beaten up like that.

    If you can't find the case, here's an episode of CSI.
    Maybe that's where they got the idea.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    On a separate note, do you assume that most men want to rape women? Or that people assume that most men want to rape women?

    No.

    It's not like most men go raping.

    --

    Rape culture is kind of like a slimy film that covers all other cultures. It is not outright dominant and doesn't rule the whole of cultural discourse, but it's still just about everywhere, and just thick enough to provide some layer of protection and encouragement for those deranged enough to seek to conquer others via gonads.

    Incenjucar on
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Are you actually suggesting that any notable percentage of people would use a "boys will be boys" excuse in relation to gang rape? And I thought I was cynical.

    If you don't think the world is full of fuckwits you should read more of the political threads.

    Oh, I'm well aware of the "30 senators supporting gangrape" thing. Politics in the States tend to draw extremists and crazies though. I doubt in society in general, any considerable number of people with nothing to gain from lobbyists would try to defend gang rape.

    TubularLuggage on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I'm not sure how useful the technical distinction you are trying to draw is, but the Haidl gang's attorneys brought up Jane Doe's "promiscuity" in front of the jury too. From a different article:
    At the May 3 start of the Orange County trial of three teenage boys accused of gang-raping an unconscious minor, a defense attorney made a startling assertion: the alleged victim enticed the "sweet," "caring," "kind" defendants into a sexual frenzy and then, while faking unconsciousness, sexually assaulted them. At one point, the attorney, an incredulous Joseph G. Cavallo, blurted out to the jury, "Why isn't she being charged with this crime?"

    The defense is pretty over the top, but they're arguing that the victim consented. It is a major legal distinction. A victim's promiscuity is not a defense if she did not consent to the sex. But, arguing that a woman consented to sex with a group of guys because she wanted to be a porn star or whatever is a defense.

    The "slut" defense used to involve a defendant arguing that a woman wearing a miniskirt, or that a history of promiscuity, was implict consent to sex. Something like that is not admissible. But, an argument that a woman wanted to become a porn star and invited a group of guys over for a filmed gang bang goes to the question of consent, and is admissible.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    ...

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    With the clothing thing, the place to tackle the issue is from the people giving the attention more than those seeking it.

    LFT

    lenore beadsman on
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    Evil Multifarious on
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »
    I still want to know what's not a "rape culture". Or is all culture "rape culture" because men participate in it? Is this just a natural continuation of the "all sex is rape" line of thinking? That's what I'm getting from a lot of these posts.

    Please feel free to correct me. I think rape is horrible, and should be punished severely, but unfortunately it's a crime that is difficult to prove and prosecute and I enjoy living in a free society where men and women are innocent until proven guilty.

    A non-rape culture would be one in which rape is treated as seriously as it deserves to be treated, people don't have to be ashamed of being raped, violence is not eroticized in the media, nobody ever "blames the victim", and rape is never trivialized or made light of.

    Pretty simple, really.

    flamebroiledchicken on
    y59kydgzuja4.png
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »
    I still want to know what's not a "rape culture". Or is all culture "rape culture" because men participate in it? Is this just a natural continuation of the "all sex is rape" line of thinking? That's what I'm getting from a lot of these posts.

    Please feel free to correct me. I think rape is horrible, and should be punished severely, but unfortunately it's a crime that is difficult to prove and prosecute and I enjoy living in a free society where men and women are innocent until proven guilty.

    Well, if amazon.com offering 'rape products' when you search for 'rape' is rape-culture then every culture with a localized amazon site is a rape-culture.

    CptHamilton on
    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    And if what I have said about not saying no offends a rape victim on this forum, I apologize. (I also think that saying "don't you think that hurts actual victims?" is a classic derailing tactic, so I don't want to spend too much time on this point.)

    Not talking about you, I'm talking about the article you quoted. Which in defense of the change used the example of women (subtle sexism lol, clearly a woman can never be sexally violent or have power over a man) 'too stunned' to say no? The intimidated thing makes sense. But I can't ever imagine a case in which someone is simply too stunned to do anything to stop them or refuse consent.

    Maybe it's just shockingly poorly worded and refering to a possble situation I'm missing?

    Leitner on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »
    I still want to know what's not a "rape culture". Or is all culture "rape culture" because men participate in it? Is this just a natural continuation of the "all sex is rape" line of thinking? That's what I'm getting from a lot of these posts.

    Please feel free to correct me. I think rape is horrible, and should be punished severely, but unfortunately it's a crime that is difficult to prove and prosecute and I enjoy living in a free society where men and women are innocent until proven guilty.

    Rape culture is a symptom of patriarchal culture, so a majority of cultures probably could be described as "rape culture." Women's liberation is a pretty novel idea, worldwide. Obviously there are different degrees of rape culture; this isn't black-and-white.

    I am very curious, however, what has given you the idea that anybody in this thread thinks that all sex is rape. Maybe you're not actually arguing against the things we are actually saying?

    Hachface on
  • logic7logic7 Registered User
    edited October 2009
    logic7 wrote: »
    Okay, so in the scenario of women "using their sexuality" to get drinks and dinner and stuff from men:

    Why is it that women's sexuality is powerful in this way? What makes it so valuable in a way that men's sexuality presumably isn't?

    I remember a case not too long ago where a teenage girl used the promis of sex as a lure to have a boy killed. I'll look for the case online. That kid's face is pretty much burned in my head 'cause I've had friends beaten up like that.

    If you can't find the case, here's an episode of CSI.
    Maybe that's where they got the idea.

    no, I don't watch CSI. I read it in a magazine... I wanna say Rolling Stone.

    logic7 on
  • psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS
    edited October 2009
    psychotix wrote: »
    Okay, so in the scenario of women "using their sexuality" to get drinks and dinner and stuff from men:

    Why is it that women's sexuality is powerful in this way? What makes it so valuable in a way that men's sexuality presumably isn't?

    Men can do it as well. I get dragged to gay bars by my friend and people always try to buy me drinks. Likewise I've had plenty of women try to pick me up. I just don't take favors from someone who's obviously interested in me when I'm not interested in them.

    Society, tries to make it OK for women to do this, when in reality it's a bit of a problem.

    Because the only reason people buy drinks for, nay, even talk to each other is to facilitate sexual relationships, right?

    You're telling me you can't tell the difference between a friend buying you a drink/dinner because they are a friend, and someone buying you a drink dinner because they are interested in sleeping with you?

    And you're telling me that you treat both situations the same, and would accept them both the same?

    o_O

    psychotix on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    On a separate note, do you assume that most men want to rape women? Or that people assume that most men want to rape women?

    No.

    It's not like most men go raping.

    --

    Rape culture is kind of like a slimy film that covers all other cultures. It is not outright dominant and doesn't rule the whole of cultural discourse, but it's still just about everywhere, and just thick enough to provide some layer of protection and encouragement for those deranged enough to seek to conquer others via gonads.

    Ok, that makes more sense.

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »
    I still want to know what's not a "rape culture". Or is all culture "rape culture" because men participate in it? Is this just a natural continuation of the "all sex is rape" line of thinking? That's what I'm getting from a lot of these posts.

    Please feel free to correct me. I think rape is horrible, and should be punished severely, but unfortunately it's a crime that is difficult to prove and prosecute and I enjoy living in a free society where men and women are innocent until proven guilty.
    You're setting up some impressive strawmen here. People who describe rape culture think all sex is rape, think all men are rapists, and oppose due process rights of the accused. Those are pretty strong claims, and ones that I don't think are borne out by any of the comments in the thread.

    As for your question, the easy answer is that any feminist (sub)culture is a non-rape or anti-rape culture. And there's nothing that stops men from being feminists.

    Grid System on
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    I'm not sure how useful the technical distinction you are trying to draw is, but the Haidl gang's attorneys brought up Jane Doe's "promiscuity" in front of the jury too. From a different article:
    At the May 3 start of the Orange County trial of three teenage boys accused of gang-raping an unconscious minor, a defense attorney made a startling assertion: the alleged victim enticed the "sweet," "caring," "kind" defendants into a sexual frenzy and then, while faking unconsciousness, sexually assaulted them. At one point, the attorney, an incredulous Joseph G. Cavallo, blurted out to the jury, "Why isn't she being charged with this crime?"

    The defense is pretty over the top, but they're arguing that the victim consented. It is a major legal distinction. A victim's promiscuity is not a defense if she did not consent to the sex. But, arguing that a woman consented to sex with a group of guys because she wanted to be a porn star or whatever is a defense.

    The "slut" defense used to involve a defendant arguing that a woman wearing a miniskirt, or that a history of promiscuity, was implict consent to sex. Something like that is not admissible. But, an argument that a woman wanted to become a porn star and invited a group of guys over for a filmed gang bang goes to the question of consent, and is admissible.
    OK I get what you are going for, but this is really a distinction without a difference for the purposes of this discussion. A culture where rape survivors can expect to be described as sluts and aspiring porn stars at trial is a rape culture, regardless of the specific legal theory behind it. As I understand it, your original claim was that this doesn't happen in the US, when it very clearly does.

    scrivenerjones on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    People should not be buying their way into eachothers' pants. It is an unhealthy way to view sexuality unless you're outright hiring a prostitute.

    Incenjucar on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    On a separate note, do you assume that most men want to rape women? Or that people assume that most men want to rape women?

    No.

    It's not like most men go raping.

    --

    Rape culture is kind of like a slimy film that covers all other cultures. It is not outright dominant and doesn't rule the whole of cultural discourse, but it's still just about everywhere, and just thick enough to provide some layer of protection and encouragement for those deranged enough to seek to conquer others via gonads.

    Does the fact that the people who perpetrated the example in the OP are being hunted down for prosecution after someone who wasn't caught up in the event reported it to the police change anything?

    That's not encouragement or protection.

    If there's encouragement or protection, it's on a base level that doesn't really seep into culture as a whole. Calling it "rape culture" elevates it to a level that's indicative of a pandemic. Criminal organizations don't exist in a "Theft and murder culture" because society as a whole condemns them and the law prosecutes them. Drug users aren't a part of some "drug culture".
    A non-rape culture would be one in which rape is treated as seriously as it deserves to be treated, people don't have to be ashamed of being raped, violence is not eroticized in the media, nobody ever "blames the victim", and rape is never trivialized or made light of.

    Pretty simple, really.

    And that's never going to happen if the solution is to fix "rape culture" instead of fixing the individual. And even then, with all of the education in the world, if they still feel the same then there's nothing you can do about it.

    With that said, those people that exist don't exist in a culture and not treating rape super serious 100% of the time doesn't suggest support.

    Sheep on
    QlBGc.jpg
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    I still want to know what's not a "rape culture". Or is all culture "rape culture" because men participate in it? Is this just a natural continuation of the "all sex is rape" line of thinking? That's what I'm getting from a lot of these posts.

    Please feel free to correct me. I think rape is horrible, and should be punished severely, but unfortunately it's a crime that is difficult to prove and prosecute and I enjoy living in a free society where men and women are innocent until proven guilty.

    Rape culture is a symptom of patriarchal culture, so a majority of cultures probably could be described as "rape culture." Women's liberation is a pretty novel idea, worldwide. Obviously there are different degrees of rape culture; this isn't black-and-white.

    I am very curious, however, what has given you the idea that anybody in this thread thinks that all sex is rape. Maybe you're not actually arguing against the things we are actually saying?

    This seems to be the attitude prevalent in a lot of posts in this thread, and I honestly don't understand it. I said it before: rape isn't an attitude or a worldview or an expectation; it's a violent crime committed against an individual. And that individual is not necessarily a female and the perpetrator is not necessarily a male.

    If patriarchal culture is rape culture, what about female-on-male rape? Male-on-male? Female-on-female? Where do those come from? Why are they just as, if not more, poorly reported and convicted as male-on-female? Yes, they're less common, but they're still real problems.

    CptHamilton on
    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    <3 <3 <3

    I love you so much right now I could rape you.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Leitner wrote: »
    And if what I have said about not saying no offends a rape victim on this forum, I apologize. (I also think that saying "don't you think that hurts actual victims?" is a classic derailing tactic, so I don't want to spend too much time on this point.)

    Not talking about you, I'm talking about the article you quoted. Which in defense of the change used the example of women (subtle sexism lol, clearly a woman can never be sexally violent or have power over a man) 'too stunned' to say no? The intimidated thing makes sense. But I can't ever imagine a case in which someone is simply too stunned to do anything to stop them or refuse consent.

    Maybe it's just shockingly poorly worded and refering to a possble situation I'm missing?

    I can tell you that being the victim of a violent crime is extremely shocking. It can definitely make you freeze up. And I think the default reaction when something horrible happens is to freak out and if your choices are "say nothing and get raped" or "scream and get raped and possibly killed," then I'd think the survival instinct would go with door number 1.

    Maybe just poor wording, though.

    lenore beadsman on
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The fact that there is a problem within a culture does not mean that the problem is a cornerstone of the culture.

    Unless the majority of men are out raping women (or think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc.) then yes, those who do would be "abnormal" due to being a statistically smaller percentage of the male population and falling outside the acceptable interactions.

    Now if you want to start talking rape culture, look at Japan. In Japan, rape is like saying Hello. Alternate image-memes if that one offends you, choose from "Tentacle Hentai" or "Used Panty Vending Machine."

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture
    .

    Have you taken women studies courses? Because you seem to understand this issue pretty well.

    SkyGheNe on
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    Everybody read this post

    scrivenerjones on
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    I have no idea what you're saying here. We should treat rape as normal? What will that help?

    The ultimate culmination of western culture is the rapist? Really? That's what our culture points to as an ideal? Then why are there no rapist folk-heroes? Why is rape universally condemned? If rape were looked upon as the ultimate success of the male dominant mentality then why would we consider it twisted and abnormal?

    A murderer is a person who killed someone. They are not necessarily in any other manner abnormal, but they killed someone. That makes them abnormal in that the average, normal person has never killed anyone. If rape is an abnormal behavior then a rapist is, by definition, an abnormal person. And if you think that rape is a normal, expected behavior then...well, I don't even know what then because that's just bizarre to me.

    CptHamilton on
    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    I have no idea what you're saying here. We should treat rape as normal? What will that help?

    The ultimate culmination of western culture is the rapist? Really? That's what our culture points to as an ideal? Then why are there no rapist folk-heroes? Why is rape universally condemned? If rape were looked upon as the ultimate success of the male dominant mentality then why would we consider it twisted and abnormal?

    A murderer is a person who killed someone. They are not necessarily in any other manner abnormal, but they killed someone. That makes them abnormal in that the average, normal person has never killed anyone. If rape is an abnormal behavior then a rapist is, by definition, an abnormal person. And if you think that rape is a normal, expected behavior then...well, I don't even know what then because that's just bizarre to me.

    I believe you misunderstood what he was saying, but instead of putting words in his mouth, I assume he'll come back to help you understand.

    SkyGheNe on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    SkyGheNe wrote: »
    I would like to just point out that the idea that rapists are "twisted" or otherwise abnormal is exactly wrong.

    The whole reason that rape is a really pervasive, massive problem in our culture (and many others) is that rape is not abnormal, and sexual assault far less so.

    What's "twisted" is the standard male model of sexuality - aggression and dominance. Men who are rapists are simply a product of their culture. They don't understand what rape is, and roll their eyes at any argument to the contrary; they think it's permissible to have sex with a girl who's asleep, unconscious, drunk, scared, uncertain, guilty, etc. They think of women as targets, as objects to be acted upon.

    There are plenty of rapists who are otherwise not noticeably "abnormal." This is because we live in a culture that encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to manipulate and coerce women into sex, and when a woman makes accusations of rape, the standard defense is to make the situation as ambiguous as possible and make the woman out to be sexually "immoral," as if that has anything to do with sexual assault.

    We live in a rape culture, because rape is a very very severe problem in our culture.

    I have no idea what you're saying here. We should treat rape as normal? What will that help?

    The ultimate culmination of western culture is the rapist? Really? That's what our culture points to as an ideal? Then why are there no rapist folk-heroes? Why is rape universally condemned? If rape were looked upon as the ultimate success of the male dominant mentality then why would we consider it twisted and abnormal?

    A murderer is a person who killed someone. They are not necessarily in any other manner abnormal, but they killed someone. That makes them abnormal in that the average, normal person has never killed anyone. If rape is an abnormal behavior then a rapist is, by definition, an abnormal person. And if you think that rape is a normal, expected behavior then...well, I don't even know what then because that's just bizarre to me.

    I believe you misunderstood what he was saying, but instead of putting words in his mouth, I assume he'll come back to help you understand.

    He seems to be saying that society produces an attitude about the male psyche that is conducive to rape and sexual abuse, no?

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    Does the fact that the people who perpetrated the example in the OP are being hunted down for prosecution after someone who wasn't caught up in the event reported it to the police change anything?

    That's not encouragement or protection.

    15 people stood around watching, rather than reporting or attempting the stop the 4 attackers. That is encouragement and protection.

    15 people.
    If there's encouragement or protection, it's on a base level that doesn't really seep into culture as a whole. Calling it "rape culture" elevates it to a level that's indicative of a pandemic. Criminal organizations don't exist in a "Theft and murder culture" because society as a whole condemns them and the law prosecutes them. Drug users aren't a part of some "drug culture".

    A culture can contain other cultures of varying size and power. There are drug cultures. Pot culture has its own magazines and events for crying out loud.
    And that's never going to happen if the solution is to fix "rape culture" instead of fixing the individual. And even then, with all of the education in the world, if they still feel the same then there's nothing you can do about it.

    Fixing rape culture is to minimize, isolate, and remove protection.

    Then normal law enforcement will have to suffice for those who will rape anyways.
    With that said, those people that exist don't exist in a culture and not treating rape super serious 100% of the time doesn't suggest support.

    It is so very complex. I think you're looking at the issue in much more blunt terms than it deserves. Did you read the giant text block?

    Incenjucar on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    I'm not sure how useful the technical distinction you are trying to draw is, but the Haidl gang's attorneys brought up Jane Doe's "promiscuity" in front of the jury too. From a different article:
    At the May 3 start of the Orange County trial of three teenage boys accused of gang-raping an unconscious minor, a defense attorney made a startling assertion: the alleged victim enticed the "sweet," "caring," "kind" defendants into a sexual frenzy and then, while faking unconsciousness, sexually assaulted them. At one point, the attorney, an incredulous Joseph G. Cavallo, blurted out to the jury, "Why isn't she being charged with this crime?"

    The defense is pretty over the top, but they're arguing that the victim consented. It is a major legal distinction. A victim's promiscuity is not a defense if she did not consent to the sex. But, arguing that a woman consented to sex with a group of guys because she wanted to be a porn star or whatever is a defense.

    The "slut" defense used to involve a defendant arguing that a woman wearing a miniskirt, or that a history of promiscuity, was implict consent to sex. Something like that is not admissible. But, an argument that a woman wanted to become a porn star and invited a group of guys over for a filmed gang bang goes to the question of consent, and is admissible.
    OK I get what you are going for, but this is really a distinction without a difference for the purposes of this discussion. A culture where rape survivors can expect to be described as sluts and aspiring porn stars at trial is a rape culture, regardless of the specific legal theory behind it. As I understand it, your original claim was that this doesn't happen in the US, when it very clearly does.
    But, in a trial, the question of whether the legal requirements of the crime of rape were met is what is being litigated.

    In such a situation, the behavior of the victim in the night at question can be relevant to the question of whether or not she consented to the sexual activity. The defendant needs to be able to put on a case, even if doing so leads to discomfort for the victim.

    Granted, the defense counsel here went overboard. If I was a judge, I would have reined him in. But, that being said, judges do tend to err on the side of letting the defense make its case, even if it involves some hyperbole, as they don't want to give them too much of a basis for appeal.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    ...

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    edited October 2009
    If patriarchal culture is rape culture, what about female-on-male rape? Male-on-male? Female-on-female? Where do those come from? Why are they just as, if not more, poorly reported and convicted as male-on-female? Yes, they're less common, but they're still real problems.
    Where do they come from?
    Female-on-male - The notion that all men want sex all the time; the notion that if a woman is able, a man is willing
    Male-on-male - The notion that sex is dominance and power; the notion that if you are being penetrated, you are being subordinated and, conversely, that by penetrating someone you subordinate them
    Female-on-female - The notion of women as acquiescent; the notion of sex as power

    Why are they poorly reported?
    Female-on-male - The notion that being dominated by a woman is especially shameful
    Male-on-male - The notion that being dominated at all is shameful
    Female-on-female - See above

    That's just a brief sketch of the reasons, but you can hopefully see how it all ties back into patriarchal notions of power, sex, masculinity, and femininity.

    Grid System on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Again, that post seems to imply that the majority of men should want to rape women, and that they should because culture dictates that it's AOK.

    I don't fully buy it.

    :?

    You aren't getting it.

    America has a very strong sports culture. Not everyone gets into the NFL.

    Incenjucar on
This discussion has been closed.