Back in 4.03, even if your CS or Hammer was dodge/parried/missed, it would generate a Holy Power Charge. The change basically guts your HoPo generation if you're not hit capped. This is bad during the first few seconds when you're trying to establish threat and before Vengeance has a high enough stack. I haven't done any Heroic Modes, but I figure competent DPS will be right on your tails so you want to get those SoTR going asap.
Okay, after playing all afternoon the change wasn't THAT drastic, but still a pretty good improvement. I'm consistently able to get 10K plus in heroics, and I'm still fairly new at this. For me it's been a 2-3K boost at minimum, which makes me happy.
It feels like I don't have to depend on procs nearly as much. Procs feel more like a bonus, like they should be, than the key part of my dps.
Okay, after playing all afternoon the change wasn't THAT drastic, but still a pretty good improvement. I'm consistently able to get 10K plus in heroics, and I'm still fairly new at this. For me it's been a 2-3K boost at minimum, which makes me happy.
It feels like I don't have to depend on procs nearly as much. Procs feel more like a bonus, like they should be, than the key part of my dps.
Yeah don't forget the 15% luck of the draw if it applied.
If you ask me, it was bound to happen one way or another. I find Warrior and DK gearing quite fun. The whole balancing threat stats with survivability. Paladin Tanks never had to deal with that ever. I know some people will be up in arms about the change. The only other solution (which was never gonna happen) was for Vengeance to be nerfed in some way. It's just too good.
As I understood it - and I may well be wrong - Warriors and DKs never had to deal with that ever, either. You should have had enough threat without gearing for hit and expertise. Indeed, Zarhym's post about the HP change suggests that they *expect* tanks to have minimal hit and expertise:
Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine.
If this was giving parity with Warriors and DKs, then fine, but as I understand it, it's not. I do suspect he's right, and we will be able to tank fine, but it does heavily cripple our HP generation which was already weak. Indeed, our HP generation issues as tanks was why tank crusader strike got changed to a 3s CD from a 4.5s CD. Now we're back to a similar rate of average HP generation as the 4.5s Crusader Strike, but based around RNG rather than slow CDs, which I suspect will be really frustrating.
8% missrate isn't nearly going to put our hp generation down as much as 4.5 sec crusader strike.
It will be pretty annoying though, and lead to some free GCDs waiting for cs to get back off cooldown since we got nothing else to do. But considering I get worried about threat more than 30 sec into the fight if someone is at more than 70% of my threat... I'm pretty sure it will be fine :P. No real threay issues apart from the start, and I always run with a rogue in raids.
Apparently maintankadin blew up over this, and the guy who does a lot of the mathhammering for them threatened to drop the class over it.
I'm hoping Blizz is planning on giving us another method of gaining HoPo, either that or altering a deep talent/creating a new specialization to allow us to get them on misses/dodges/parries again.
8% missrate isn't nearly going to put our hp generation down as much as 4.5 sec crusader strike.
It's misses, not Misses. In other words, we're also not generating from Dodges and Parries, either. That's a whopping 20.5% on top of that, I believe. Plus, there's the RNG factor.
It will be pretty annoying though, and lead to some free GCDs waiting for cs to get back off cooldown since we got nothing else to do. But considering I get worried about threat more than 30 sec into the fight if someone is at more than 70% of my threat... I'm pretty sure it will be fine . No real threay issues apart from the start, and I always run with a rogue in raids.
In threat terms, once we've got a decent stack of vengeance, we don't need to worry. However, HP also dictates Holy Shield uptime and (if we're self-WoGing) self-healing. Those are both going to mean a hit to our survivability, too.
Apparently maintankadin blew up over this, and the guy who does a lot of the mathhammering for them threatened to drop the class over it.
Theck does get a little... emotive at times. Still, he does have viable points, even if they're a bit... enthusiastic.
I'm hoping Blizz is planning on giving us another method of gaining HoPo, either that or altering a deep talent/creating a new specialization to allow us to get them on misses/dodges/parries again.
I've suggested a few times: Chance of HP on block (plus ICD) fits the spec very, very effectively.
Chance of HP on block will put us on add duty always. Can you imagine the HP generation when you're tanking...say...whelps?
High chance (or even 100%), ICD of a couple of seconds. No real advantage tanking multiple mobs over tanking a single one.
Basically designed to give you a consistent drip of HP while you're actually being hit. Also makes mastery more desirable (not that it particularly needs to be for pally tanks, but hey)
I was not generating nearly enough HP last night. I was getting out-threat left and right, but as long as the person doesn't keep hitting buttons and stops then it's fine.
We did one shot ascendant council this week, and chim so my threat issues weren't an issue so much as functioning well as a group. It was vastly annoying to not be able to do 3 shield slams with an avenging wrath anymore, I'm lucky to get 1 sometimes with how often I'm, apparently, missing.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I was not generating nearly enough HP last night. I was getting out-threat left and right, but as long as the person doesn't keep hitting buttons and stops then it's fine.
Divine Plea is going to be much more useful, I probably ought to get into the habit of using it on CD.
If I'm reading that correctly, basically he's saying that hit/exp don't matter for threat because of lolvengeance, and that it's still better for survivability purposes to reforge hit/exp into mastery because the WoG heals don't outstrip the mitigation from blocking the attack via holy shield?
I'll see first-hand later, but it suggests that my suspicions were correct: the changes haven't really made things worse for us, just a whole lot more irritating. Your DPS might need to be alert about early misses, possibly.
In short, though, to respond to Nobody: That's how it seems on first impressions.
Edit: More worrying is the HotR issue, which may actually be a bug and has been around for a bit, but has more significantly come to the fore with this; it appears that HotR misses, is parried or dodged, it does not do the AoE portion, meaning our main AoE skill is less reliable than those of other tanks. Annoyingly, said miss/parry/dodges don't show up on the combat log.
If you had 0 hit and expertise, there's a 28.5% chance for your CS to fail against a boss. Of course you'll never be that low, but even with a modest, let's say, 4% hit and 12 expertise, you've still got an 18.5% chance for a whiff, which is pretty high.
I was already using hit food and maintaining 5%+ hit in raid, so that part felt about the same for myslef last night. However, I definitely noticed bad dodge/parry streaks at the start of boss fights last night in terms of threat generation. Now the flipside is that even now, once you get a lead, it's over, you will not lose it. So overall the change is just an annoying one, not a game breaker.
On the other hand, the new mechanics of HotR are asinine and highly frustrating.
I'm at 26 expertise since I use the SoT glyph and tank gear actually has expertise on it.
Hit is really low since I reforged to mastery and avoidance instead, and I'm thinking about reforging hit again now. Not getting HP sometimes was really really really annoying, and I actually lose aggro once about 30 sec into al'akir when our mages mirror images faded. Just so used to completely not caring about threat, so noone has paid attention to it for a fair while :P.
I honestly don't get this change, runes don't go on CD when the attack is dodged/parried/missed etc right? Resources like this should not be capped by that <<.
I personally think it's more of an attempt by Blizzard to slow down WoG spam than it is to make threat matter. After the changes you either tell dps to actually watch threat at the start, or you pick back up some hit/exp and lose mitigation to get more WoG's off.
I actually thought strategic use of Word of Glory as Protection just a part of the new rotation. Great in raids such as Baradin Hold when I want to use WoG when not currently tanking to help the healers and not risk pulling thread of the tank after a swap with a Righteous Shield crit.
Anecdotal evidence from my first actual raid with the changes:
The only major change I made was to default to Seal of Truth over Seal of Insight (thereby getting the hefty expertise bonus). I also made sure that the DPS were aware that threat might be a problem at the start of the fight, if I did the initial tanking.
Halfus: Tanked the first drake to be killed (swapped to Halfus shortly before it died to relieve the mortal strike debuff). No problem with threat, although that was a L87 mob, not a boss.
Valiona + Theralion: Tanked Valiona (we use two tanks for the fight, mainly so we have something for another tank to do at this point). No major problem with threat, although I did have to give one of the DPS a gentle warning early on. Had I been more alert, salv would have done the trick.
Ascendant Council: Lots of attempts on this, no kill (progression boss). Flubbed one of the pulls, lost aggro but that's entirely my fault. One attempt I did lose aggro due to an unlucky string of misses; the only time it caused a problem all night.
Overall, it's potentially an issue, but I didn't feel all that threatened by it, and didn't have to make any gear changes to accomodate it. When I get more used to it I'll start swapping to SoI once I have a reasonable threat foundation to build on... I'm sure there's going to be a free GCD somewhere that I can use!
It is, however, more irritating. In particular, I'm often *not* noticing a CS miss and instead of using a filler for its cooldown, I keep hammering CS. I need a plan to fix that.
That was pretty much my experience. I found myself having to blow a 1 or 2 holy power WoG to keep Holy Shield up, but otherwise I typically had a comfortable threat lead.
The HotR change was more troublesome due to the problems it caused with keeping adds on me (see also: the flowers on Conclave of the Winds).
That was pretty much my experience. I found myself having to blow a 1 or 2 holy power WoG to keep Holy Shield up, but otherwise I typically had a comfortable threat lead.
I'm using the HolyTrinity mod one of the Maintankadin folks coded to track my holy power; I might look into expanding it over the weekend to both track Holy Shield duration (so I know when I absolutely must use whatever HP I have) and notify me when CS/HotR are on CD (so I don't keep spamming the button after it's missed; in the past I'd use the bar lighting up as my cue to move to the next step of the rotation)
That was pretty much my experience. I found myself having to blow a 1 or 2 holy power WoG to keep Holy Shield up, but otherwise I typically had a comfortable threat lead.
The HotR change was more troublesome due to the problems it caused with keeping adds on me (see also: the flowers on Conclave of the Winds).
I thought about it a bunch yesterday, and in my mind the best thing to do about the HotR change on stuff like Halfus and Conclave is to just make sure to always target one of the adds when hitting HotR so that the lower level mob gives you less chance to not hit your primary target.
What a mess. They really have to be smart about HoR. I mean, if HoR always hits and always generates HOPO were gonna end up dumping CS.
Eh, they can separate it. Have the small physical portion have it's own hit roll, and if it hits it generates HoPo. The holy aoe portion has its own roll against each target without relying on the physical portion to hit the primary target.
The Luck of the Draw + Ret Tweaks are nuts. I was doing 18k DPS in Heroics which is way more than a 20% increase. Has anyone retriawesomed a raid or two and seen similar results?
The Luck of the Draw + Ret Tweaks are nuts. I was doing 18k DPS in Heroics which is way more than a 20% increase. Has anyone retriawesomed a raid or two and seen similar results?
We have two ret paladins in our raids; Maleric is significantly better than Zli, but both saw improvements.
The Luck of the Draw + Ret Tweaks are nuts. I was doing 18k DPS in Heroics which is way more than a 20% increase. Has anyone retriawesomed a raid or two and seen similar results?
We have two ret paladins in our raids; Maleric is significantly better than Zli, but both saw improvements.
Halfus shows bigger differences, but those stats are probably tainted by the changes to the fight itself.
That's a pretty enormous increase at any rate. It would appear that Zli is not playing very well, but Maleric's output gain is awesome. So Ret is viable in raids, sweet.
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Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
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Thank you, patch.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
It feels like I don't have to depend on procs nearly as much. Procs feel more like a bonus, like they should be, than the key part of my dps.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Yeah don't forget the 15% luck of the draw if it applied.
As I understood it - and I may well be wrong - Warriors and DKs never had to deal with that ever, either. You should have had enough threat without gearing for hit and expertise. Indeed, Zarhym's post about the HP change suggests that they *expect* tanks to have minimal hit and expertise:
If this was giving parity with Warriors and DKs, then fine, but as I understand it, it's not. I do suspect he's right, and we will be able to tank fine, but it does heavily cripple our HP generation which was already weak. Indeed, our HP generation issues as tanks was why tank crusader strike got changed to a 3s CD from a 4.5s CD. Now we're back to a similar rate of average HP generation as the 4.5s Crusader Strike, but based around RNG rather than slow CDs, which I suspect will be really frustrating.
It will be pretty annoying though, and lead to some free GCDs waiting for cs to get back off cooldown since we got nothing else to do. But considering I get worried about threat more than 30 sec into the fight if someone is at more than 70% of my threat... I'm pretty sure it will be fine :P. No real threay issues apart from the start, and I always run with a rogue in raids.
I'm hoping Blizz is planning on giving us another method of gaining HoPo, either that or altering a deep talent/creating a new specialization to allow us to get them on misses/dodges/parries again.
It's misses, not Misses. In other words, we're also not generating from Dodges and Parries, either. That's a whopping 20.5% on top of that, I believe. Plus, there's the RNG factor.
In threat terms, once we've got a decent stack of vengeance, we don't need to worry. However, HP also dictates Holy Shield uptime and (if we're self-WoGing) self-healing. Those are both going to mean a hit to our survivability, too.
Theck does get a little... emotive at times. Still, he does have viable points, even if they're a bit... enthusiastic.
I've suggested a few times: Chance of HP on block (plus ICD) fits the spec very, very effectively.
High chance (or even 100%), ICD of a couple of seconds. No real advantage tanking multiple mobs over tanking a single one.
Basically designed to give you a consistent drip of HP while you're actually being hit. Also makes mastery more desirable (not that it particularly needs to be for pally tanks, but hey)
We did one shot ascendant council this week, and chim so my threat issues weren't an issue so much as functioning well as a group. It was vastly annoying to not be able to do 3 shield slams with an avenging wrath anymore, I'm lucky to get 1 sometimes with how often I'm, apparently, missing.
Divine Plea is going to be much more useful, I probably ought to get into the habit of using it on CD.
I guess I better start gemming for hit now... sigh.
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=30921&rb_v=viewtopic&start=105#p644004
In short, though, to respond to Nobody: That's how it seems on first impressions.
Edit: More worrying is the HotR issue, which may actually be a bug and has been around for a bit, but has more significantly come to the fore with this; it appears that HotR misses, is parried or dodged, it does not do the AoE portion, meaning our main AoE skill is less reliable than those of other tanks. Annoyingly, said miss/parry/dodges don't show up on the combat log.
On the other hand, the new mechanics of HotR are asinine and highly frustrating.
Hit is really low since I reforged to mastery and avoidance instead, and I'm thinking about reforging hit again now. Not getting HP sometimes was really really really annoying, and I actually lose aggro once about 30 sec into al'akir when our mages mirror images faded. Just so used to completely not caring about threat, so noone has paid attention to it for a fair while :P.
I honestly don't get this change, runes don't go on CD when the attack is dodged/parried/missed etc right? Resources like this should not be capped by that <<.
The only major change I made was to default to Seal of Truth over Seal of Insight (thereby getting the hefty expertise bonus). I also made sure that the DPS were aware that threat might be a problem at the start of the fight, if I did the initial tanking.
Halfus: Tanked the first drake to be killed (swapped to Halfus shortly before it died to relieve the mortal strike debuff). No problem with threat, although that was a L87 mob, not a boss.
Valiona + Theralion: Tanked Valiona (we use two tanks for the fight, mainly so we have something for another tank to do at this point). No major problem with threat, although I did have to give one of the DPS a gentle warning early on. Had I been more alert, salv would have done the trick.
Ascendant Council: Lots of attempts on this, no kill (progression boss). Flubbed one of the pulls, lost aggro but that's entirely my fault. One attempt I did lose aggro due to an unlucky string of misses; the only time it caused a problem all night.
Overall, it's potentially an issue, but I didn't feel all that threatened by it, and didn't have to make any gear changes to accomodate it. When I get more used to it I'll start swapping to SoI once I have a reasonable threat foundation to build on... I'm sure there's going to be a free GCD somewhere that I can use!
It is, however, more irritating. In particular, I'm often *not* noticing a CS miss and instead of using a filler for its cooldown, I keep hammering CS. I need a plan to fix that.
The HotR change was more troublesome due to the problems it caused with keeping adds on me (see also: the flowers on Conclave of the Winds).
I'm using the HolyTrinity mod one of the Maintankadin folks coded to track my holy power; I might look into expanding it over the weekend to both track Holy Shield duration (so I know when I absolutely must use whatever HP I have) and notify me when CS/HotR are on CD (so I don't keep spamming the button after it's missed; in the past I'd use the bar lighting up as my cue to move to the next step of the rotation)
I thought about it a bunch yesterday, and in my mind the best thing to do about the HotR change on stuff like Halfus and Conclave is to just make sure to always target one of the adds when hitting HotR so that the lower level mob gives you less chance to not hit your primary target.
Eh, they can separate it. Have the small physical portion have it's own hit roll, and if it hits it generates HoPo. The holy aoe portion has its own roll against each target without relying on the physical portion to hit the primary target.
We have two ret paladins in our raids; Maleric is significantly better than Zli, but both saw improvements.
Valiona & Theralion, pre-patch (Monday)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-w0nnostb0sckqz1i/sum/damageDone/?s=5582&e=6128
Valiona & Theralion, post-patch (Wednesday)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-01x0ejlyi1i2jfu5/sum/damageDone/?s=4966&e=5324
Halfus shows bigger differences, but those stats are probably tainted by the changes to the fight itself.
That's a pretty enormous increase at any rate. It would appear that Zli is not playing very well, but Maleric's output gain is awesome. So Ret is viable in raids, sweet.