I think games are reaching the point where they need to be rebranded in order to move on as an art form. Games in which the goal is simply to "win" or get the highest score are increasingly thin on the ground. Most games are now arranged as interactive narratives with possible failure states. Games like Fable 2 are impossible to "lose". I think we need to bring back the archaic name of "interactive fiction", because modern games frequently fall into that category just as well as Infocom games used to.
I agree with Roger Ebert on Braid by the way. That game was dumb.
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Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
all told, it's a stupid argument, stoked by people who can't concieve of the fact that something originally conceived as a children's toy could ascend to an artform
and while very few games can be considered art in the "meaningful expression of feelings" sense, there are examples of such
Roger Ebert is a grouchy old dude
I admire how well he put his point across, but the problem is that it is manifest that he hasn't played any games. It's like watching the trailer for The Godfather and saying "this is stupid, it's just a dumb crime film"
yeah, the problem is he's an intelligent and well spoken man who refuses to even look at the medium he's decrying
kind of sad, really
It's a problem with the medium though. If I said to Roger Ebert "look, play GTAIV. It's like The Godfather of video games. It's incredible" and he agreed, he wouldn't just play it until the end and then go "wow Tube you were so right, it must be awesome being you. It'd involve me sitting with him going
"no press A to run. that's the one at the bottom... the... yeah the green one now get into cover that guy has a gun NO DON'T RUN TOWARDS HI- aaaahhhh ok ok no big deal let's start again ok next time you want to hold the right trigger- the one at the back - yeah on the right hand side that's the trigger and then use the left stick to- look let's just watch the cutscenes on youtube"
Or persuading him to play Planescape Torment and having to have an awkward conversation at The Transcendant One because he picked all the wrong spells.
I know I would argue that the artistry in games is really in the playing experience and what it evokes. Watching Shadow of the Colossus is actually pretty fucking boring, but playing it, deciding what to do and struggling with the controls (not that they're bad, just that you gotta work dat thing) involves you in a way that you can't get with movies or TV. This is offset by the fact that your narrative is going to be interrupted a shit-ton.
People tend to focus on video games as art in terms of how close to a movie it is.
Look how cinematic and dramatic and moving our cut scenes are, this must be art!
Nobody ever talks about the art of good gameplay, and it's something Ebert will never understand because he doesn't care to figure it out.
This artist, whom I just discovered and am quite in awe of, is clearly a highly skilled craftswoman of her trade (the skill necessary to create the lotus bowl alone is quite impressive). Her pieces are also extremely warm and artistic.
I think games are reaching the point where they need to be rebranded in order to move on as an art form. Games in which the goal is simply to "win" or get the highest score are increasingly thin on the ground. Most games are now arranged as interactive narratives with possible failure states. Games like Fable 2 are impossible to "lose". I think we need to bring back the archaic name of "interactive fiction", because modern games frequently fall into that category just as well as Infocom games used to.
I agree with Roger Ebert on Braid by the way. That game was dumb.
But it's puzzles + pretension! That has to equal good!
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
I just find it hard to believe that in 100-200 years if video games are still around that his statement that video games can never be art will still be an accepted stance.
It won't be
It'll take a couple decades give or take, but games will eventually earn their place
Now that we have big budget games with graphics that don't suck and a penchant for dramatic cutscenes, plus some genuinely creative people who know the strengths of the medium, I imagine it won't be super long before really crazy stuff starts coming out
Hell there's been a few so far that I'd consider evidence of art, but Roger Ebert hasn't played them, so he wouldn't know
This artist, whom I just discovered and am quite in awe of, is clearly a highly skilled craftswoman of her trade (the skill necessary to create the lotus bowl alone is quite impressive). Her pieces are also extremely warm and artistic.
I think games are reaching the point where they need to be rebranded in order to move on as an art form. Games in which the goal is simply to "win" or get the highest score are increasingly thin on the ground. Most games are now arranged as interactive narratives with possible failure states. Games like Fable 2 are impossible to "lose". I think we need to bring back the archaic name of "interactive fiction", because modern games frequently fall into that category just as well as Infocom games used to.
I agree with Roger Ebert on Braid by the way. That game was dumb.
Much like how comic books were re-branded as graphic novels to widen their critical appeal?
Craftsmen are not artists
The things which craftsmen make are not art
The Sistine Chapel was created by craftsmen
Therefore, the Sistine Chapel is not art
I respect Ebert because he's the only pulitzer prize winning journalist/reviewer I know of that used who used to write soft core porn, consistently gets the phrase WTF published in nationally syndicated papers, and has a Joker like permanent grin.
I think games are reaching the point where they need to be rebranded in order to move on as an art form. Games in which the goal is simply to "win" or get the highest score are increasingly thin on the ground. Most games are now arranged as interactive narratives with possible failure states. Games like Fable 2 are impossible to "lose". I think we need to bring back the archaic name of "interactive fiction", because modern games frequently fall into that category just as well as Infocom games used to.
I agree with Roger Ebert on Braid by the way. That game was dumb.
the one thing i thought after ebert's most recent piece was he was right that where the main aim is to 'win', the game cannot be art
but interactivity is not about winning always. more often recently, and sure in the past too, the interactivity is just a mode of reading the text - the way you navigate it. in which case interactivity is certainly not excluded from art. it actually enhances it.
I think games are reaching the point where they need to be rebranded in order to move on as an art form. Games in which the goal is simply to "win" or get the highest score are increasingly thin on the ground. Most games are now arranged as interactive narratives with possible failure states. Games like Fable 2 are impossible to "lose". I think we need to bring back the archaic name of "interactive fiction", because modern games frequently fall into that category just as well as Infocom games used to.
I agree with Roger Ebert on Braid by the way. That game was dumb.
But it's puzzles + pretension! That has to equal good!
Braid is problematic
On the one hand, it is genuinely clever how they made the story, such as it is, tie into the gameplay in a very real way and the themes present in it extend into the gameplay
On the other hand, that dude began his credits sequence with a quote from a poem
You have to get up pretty early in the morning to be more pretentious than that
There's nothing wrong with pretension if you're capable of pulling it off. I think the description of the writing as being fortune cookie standard is pretty much dead on.
You don't even know what the word pretentious means, do you Olivaw?
pretentious in an internet context means anything that attempts to be clever in any way whatsoever. I was once called pretentious on here for using the word "vexatious"
The full title of this seminal work of space art is Base of the World, Magic Base No. 3 by Piero Manzoni 1961 Homage to Galileo. By subtitling his work an homage to Galileo, Manzoni was slyly making the absurd proclamation that the entire earth is a sculpture.
pretentious in an internet context means anything that attempts to be clever in any way whatsoever. I was once called pretentious on here for using the word "vexatious"
Whenever I hear about an art debate inevitably my very first thought is the cover of a Superboy comic depicting Bizarro(boy?) clad in smock and wielding palette, standing critically over his creation of a stiple portrait of Superboy warily shielding Lana from the artist
there are still a lot of games that are games though
it'd be hard to brand a Madden or Burnout game as interactive fiction, for example
the problem is games are a mash-up of other mediums that really defies one description
so we label them all games and people immediately think "games are for kids"
Interactive Entertainment is a better fit, I think
if only it didn't sound so stupid
I don't like interactive fiction as the fancified artsy-fartsy name for games
That implies that there has to be a story or dialogue for it to count as art
The game mechanics themselves should qualify, whatever they're attached to
Otherwise you're just talking about a choose-your-own adventure movie, and of course that counts as art. That's not even a new medium at all, and it's missing the more interesting discussion.
there are still a lot of games that are games though
it'd be hard to brand a Madden or Burnout game as interactive fiction, for example
the problem is games are a mash-up of other mediums that really defies one description
so we label them all games and people immediately think "games are for kids"
Interactive Entertainment is a better fit, I think
if only it didn't sound so stupid
I don't like interactive fiction as the fancified artsy-fartsy name for games
That implies that there has to be a story or dialogue for it to count as art
The game mechanics themselves should qualify, whatever they're attached to
Otherwise you're just talking about a choose-your-own adventure movie, and of course that counts as art. That's not even a new medium at all, and it's missing the more interesting discussion.
I think any product that is the result of a person or people's creativity and skill is art
so yeah, even Madden! though it's certainly on the low end of the scale
I'd honestly put the STALKER games (when they work) as among the closest things to 'art' in a video game I've played yet. Each part of the game, from the controls to the gameplay to the atmosphere work together to create this palpable sense of foreboding and suspense. For me, it evokes exactly the kind of emotion that I imagine I'd feel in that environment - one of stress and a sort of low grade despair. I have to stop playing that game sometimes because I'm getting too stressed out.
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Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
there are still a lot of games that are games though
it'd be hard to brand a Madden or Burnout game as interactive fiction, for example
the problem is games are a mash-up of other mediums that really defies one description
so we label them all games and people immediately think "games are for kids"
Interactive Entertainment is a better fit, I think
if only it didn't sound so stupid
I don't like interactive fiction as the fancified artsy-fartsy name for games
That implies that there has to be a story or dialogue for it to count as art
The game mechanics themselves should qualify, whatever they're attached to
Otherwise you're just talking about a choose-your-own adventure movie, and of course that counts as art. That's not even a new medium at all, and it's missing the more interesting discussion.
I think any product that is the result of a person or people's creativity and skill is art
so yeah, even Madden! though it's certainly on the low end of the scale
Certainly.
I just don't like the implication that it's only art if it pretends to be a book/movie/album.
Tetris is art. Even if you strip out the rad soundtrack.
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I agree with Roger Ebert on Braid by the way. That game was dumb.
People tend to focus on video games as art in terms of how close to a movie it is.
Look how cinematic and dramatic and moving our cut scenes are, this must be art!
Nobody ever talks about the art of good gameplay, and it's something Ebert will never understand because he doesn't care to figure it out.
Here is some art pottery
This artist, whom I just discovered and am quite in awe of, is clearly a highly skilled craftswoman of her trade (the skill necessary to create the lotus bowl alone is quite impressive). Her pieces are also extremely warm and artistic.
also I did not like playing it
But it's puzzles + pretension! That has to equal good!
He can't eat or speak, but his fingers still work okay
And he's been writing more of them than ever since they're the only way he can really communicate now
I'd probably be doing the same thing, all things considered
It won't be
It'll take a couple decades give or take, but games will eventually earn their place
Now that we have big budget games with graphics that don't suck and a penchant for dramatic cutscenes, plus some genuinely creative people who know the strengths of the medium, I imagine it won't be super long before really crazy stuff starts coming out
Hell there's been a few so far that I'd consider evidence of art, but Roger Ebert hasn't played them, so he wouldn't know
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
That makes me sad.
Forever will he curse that video game, Yo, Noid! For the NES.
Oooooo I want that scallop edge cake stand.
You're totally wrong about Braid though.
IS THIS ART?!
no
all artists are necessarily also craftsmen
but not all craftsmen are artists
Wasn't it?
To be fair, it's not like I don't like it because it's been out a while and was critically acclaimed. I don't like it because it sucks.
it'd be hard to brand a Madden or Burnout game as interactive fiction, for example
the problem is games are a mash-up of other mediums that really defies one description
so we label them all games and people immediately think "games are for kids"
Interactive Entertainment is a better fit, I think
if only it didn't sound so stupid
I don't $325 want them, though. I may $140 want a cake stand, though. Although there's plenty that looks close for fairly cheap.
the one thing i thought after ebert's most recent piece was he was right that where the main aim is to 'win', the game cannot be art
but interactivity is not about winning always. more often recently, and sure in the past too, the interactivity is just a mode of reading the text - the way you navigate it. in which case interactivity is certainly not excluded from art. it actually enhances it.
Detective novels can not be art, then.
This whole discussion is beyond absurd.
Braid is problematic
On the one hand, it is genuinely clever how they made the story, such as it is, tie into the gameplay in a very real way and the themes present in it extend into the gameplay
On the other hand, that dude began his credits sequence with a quote from a poem
You have to get up pretty early in the morning to be more pretentious than that
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
the whole concept is not my thing
pretentious in an internet context means anything that attempts to be clever in any way whatsoever. I was once called pretentious on here for using the word "vexatious"
Everything is art.
And I just spent twenty minutes making a character do the creepy Milhouse 'come hither' eyebrows.
I'm pretty proud of myself.
for anyone to have their passions be decried as invalid is a crime
A question: Yes
but am it art?
You can only be proud if it was a raptor.
EDIT - That includes both dinosaurs and Garrus.
Yeah, but nobody tries to claim that Citizen Kane isn't allowed to be art because it shares a medium with Leprechaun: Back 2 tha Hood.
Although now that I mention it, that might be a pretty valid argument.
I don't like interactive fiction as the fancified artsy-fartsy name for games
That implies that there has to be a story or dialogue for it to count as art
The game mechanics themselves should qualify, whatever they're attached to
Otherwise you're just talking about a choose-your-own adventure movie, and of course that counts as art. That's not even a new medium at all, and it's missing the more interesting discussion.
I think any product that is the result of a person or people's creativity and skill is art
so yeah, even Madden! though it's certainly on the low end of the scale
Certainly.
I just don't like the implication that it's only art if it pretends to be a book/movie/album.
Tetris is art. Even if you strip out the rad soundtrack.