Options

The Booth Babe Policy

Robert KhooRobert Khoo Registered User, ClubPA staff
edited June 2010 in PAX Archive
Some guy.
Robert Khoo on
«13

Posts

  • Options
    proXimityproXimity Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Taken

    proXimity on
    camo_sig2.png
  • Options
    MaradineMaradine Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Surprisingly, they probably know that.

    edit: would have preferred the policy option "Questionable cases will be brought before a gaming tribunal and grilled on their subject matter." And something about a penalty cage.

    Maradine on
  • Options
    Moe FwackyMoe Fwacky Right Here, Right Now Drives a BuickModerator Mod Emeritus
    edited May 2010
    All kinds of filled out

    Moe Fwacky on
    E6LkoFK.png

  • Options
    BrokenAngelBrokenAngel Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Filled out.

    EDIT: Also Khoo, will the decision of whether to start enforcing the ban or having it lifted be announced before PAX? I would very much like to know the outcome.

    BrokenAngel on
    k9mk2carn.pngeleventhdoc2carn.png *Proud Head Girl of Slytherin & Team Red*
  • Options
    bubblegumnexbubblegumnex Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Filled out like something fierce.

    bubblegumnex on
    <@zerzhul&gt; bubblegumnex: you were so very fucked up
    <@zerzhul&gt; you win at twdt
  • Options
    laserdoglaserdog Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I asked one to cover herself up before a photo at last PAX Prime (She was an awesome sport about it):
    modest_booth_babe.JPG

    Also she looked cold.

    laserdog on
  • Options
    BrennaCeDriaBrennaCeDria Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Done.

    BrennaCeDria on
  • Options
    JediknightkarlJediknightkarl Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    i don't care if they are scantily clad as long as they know their product backwards and forwards.

    Jediknightkarl on
    damn...bit my tongue....i hate that.
  • Options
    HeleorHeleor SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I filled it out.

    As a question: Will this policy apply to all cosplayers or just those employed on the show floor?

    Heleor on
  • Options
    ThreeveThreeve Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I believe this is directed at the exhibitors. Cosplayers generally just have to obey Wheaton's Law.

    Threeve on
  • Options
    The_ReflectionThe_Reflection Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Here's all I have to say about the matter.

    I don't care if a place uses booth babes, as long as they aren't dizty blonds who don't know or don't care about the product they are promoting and are just there to insult my intelligence because companies believe i'll give two shits about their horrible game because they put tits next to it.

    The_Reflection on
  • Options
    BamboozaBambooza Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Filled out the survey, just not sure it asked enough questions.

    My feelings on the subject is I don’t mind if the employees of a booth are scantily clad so long as they are fully cosplaying a character of the game. A good example of this was the Alien Ware booth. Not all of the agents where knowledgeable on all the details of the computer system or even the details of the tournament that was taking place, but they were more than willing to help while still maintaining the persona of being secret government agents.

    So as a final example if EA Sports had some Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders to promote their newest NFL game then that would be acceptable. Now if a graphics card manufacture had some Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders in an attempt to entice people to visit their booth given its limited if any relevance to the product should not be tolerated at pax.

    Bambooza on
    The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
  • Options
    WingedillidanWingedillidan Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Complete, on soo many levels...

    Wingedillidan on
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
  • Options
    HeleorHeleor SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Bambooza: What about the boots that are not at all directly related to video games - such as the gaming sunglasses booth? They definitely had a lot of booth babes, not anything I'd consider revealing, but obviously there to entice attention.

    Heleor on
  • Options
    DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Heleor wrote: »
    Bambooza: What about the boots that are not at all directly related to video games - such as the gaming sunglasses booth? They definitely had a lot of booth babes, not anything I'd consider revealing, but obviously there to entice attention.

    Personally, I'd say it's ok as long as they can provide us with at least some info. If there's a dev at the booth of a company, obviously he can tell us a lot about a game he's promoting, but if, say, ArenaNet had a Aion booth babe, I'd like her to be able to explain that Aion is a MMORPG that has two factions of angel-like creatures fighting a third race, the Balaurs. She doesn't have to know everything, but if she's here to promote a product, she must be able to do more than "have breasts".

    Djiem on
  • Options
    dyaballikldyaballikl PAX Main Theatre House & Security Manager • PAX Community Cartographer Gold Coast QLD AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Done!

    I love boobs as much as the next guy, but I don't go to PAX for that. I go to PAX for games. Let's keep substance at PAX and let E3 have the flash.

    dyaballikl on
    a.k.a. dya
    "Riding a mongoose reminds me of having sex with a man, which is something I do frequently because I am gay!" -Gabe
  • Options
    parabolaparabola Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I like the ban on booth babes, but if they in the future get allowed , i'd like for them to at least know what they're promoting. That's the key.

    parabola on
  • Options
    Steel FireSteel Fire Gunboat Diplomat PAI MarketingRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Completed.

    As the old saying goes: "Everything in moderation."

    Steel Fire on
  • Options
    3DKnight3DKnight Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I voted, as a game developer, negatory. PAX's theme is "welcome home".

    I don't view booth babes as fitting into that theme.

    3DKnight on
  • Options
    Future_LSFuture_LS Registered User new member
    edited May 2010
    Tycho always says that PAX is the convention that always should have been. Gamers have an uncanny ability to recognize bullshots, cutscenes passed off as in-game footage, and every other slick marketing gimmick. Somehow we have developed, as a subculture, a potent gift to sift signal from noise. We are not the mainstream. PAX is not about the mainstream. I for one appreciate the current stance where I am not pandered to like the mainstream, at least when I go to PAX.

    I'm not for discrimination based on looks, mind you. If a beautiful girl can tell me coherently why this RTS is going to make Starcraft its bitch and distract me from her answer with her pendulous breasts, I'm all for that. But as a gamer and as an informed consumer I resent the bejesus out of companies trotting out some beautiful young thing in a g-string in hopes that as I grasp with my sweaty palms for the girl I will accidentally end up with one of their products in my hands.

    Future_LS on
  • Options
    Tel PrydainTel Prydain Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The key thing here is that the booth babe/boy be a gamer who knows what they’re talking about. The draw of PAX is the idea that PAX is ‘home’ for the freaks,the geeks, the gamers. And it can’t be ‘home’ if there are snotty models there judging all the smelly geeks hanging about.

    And that's just looking at it from a guy's point of view. Imagine the girl gamers - Are they going to feel at home with a half-dressed America’s Next Top Model reject staring at them from the game booths?

    Keep it in character. Keep it covered. Hire gamers who know the product.
    End of story.

    Tel Prydain on
  • Options
    thespiffyneostarthespiffyneostar Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Taken.

    I didn't really notice the booth babes that much last year at pax. but having seen videos from other conventions, I don't want it to become like that.

    thespiffyneostar on
  • Options
    TheOneWhoStoodUpTheOneWhoStoodUp Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Done.

    I hate over-regulation, especially when it comes to "decency" stuff. Tell booths not to bring booth babes, or put standards on "scantily clad", then you'd have to put the same standards on female convention-goers.

    That ever-so-popular L4D Witch cosplay would sure as shit fall under "scantily clad". I was pretty shocked when I first saw it. But never did it cross my mind that she shouldn't have been allowed to do it.

    TheOneWhoStoodUp on
    That's pretty far out, man!
  • Options
    Lynx_Lynx_ Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    3DKnight wrote: »
    I voted, as a game developer, negatory. PAX's theme is "welcome home".

    I don't view booth babes as fitting into that theme.
    This, most simply.

    I also don't find the "know the product" deal to be sufficient. That's just putting a gloss on what is still the problem: the only reason the booth babe is there is to look attractive, and it's that aspect of the booth babe concept that offends me. Anyone on the team can talk about the product, so why didn't they bring the girl who wrote the code? And if the booth babe is the girl who wrote the code, why'd the company dress her up funny? Maybe I'd be okay with it if everyone in the booth was dressed ridiculously, heh.

    Anyways, it's obviously not scantily clad girls that are offensive to people, otherwise we probably wouldn't be able to play 75-90% of games.

    Lynx_ on
  • Options
    kraftboykraftboy Registered User new member
    edited May 2010
    Down with booth babes. It's an insulting career path and with all due respect, as an engineer, girls are much smarter and more capable of such menial crap.

    Even if she can talk gamer with you, shes still just a PR rep. We need more girls in engineering and programming that arn't subjected to the kind of crap where the attitude is, "Hey, I'm fine with you being scantily clad as long as you can speak my lingo."

    If you change your mind on what you would have done to something different because there is an attractive girl involved, you're doing it wrong. Find your own attractive girl, and leave the gaming/nerd conferences to gaming/nerd fans. Shit, it's not like there arn't tons of hot women working with you, walking on the street, and being visitors to these conferences. There's really no need to encourage an industry of women to set their bar low.

    kraftboy on
  • Options
    TheOneWhoStoodUpTheOneWhoStoodUp Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    kraftboy wrote: »
    If you change your mind on what you would have done to something different because there is an attractive girl involved, you're doing it wrong.

    Surely you can see the irony inherent in this statement compared to your view.

    In any case, it's just marketing.

    I think the obnoxious "TURN THAT SHIT UP" campaign was insultingly bad. Doesn't mean we should regulate how they choose to market. If it's effective, it's effective. If it isn't, it isn't, and it'll get scaled out.

    If it's "not about scantily clad women", then you're banning some honestly cool shit, like the Sins of the Solar Empire girl that was at PAX '08. And you'd certainly have to ban basically anyone that dresses up just for marketing purposes if it's not a "decency" thing. So that means "bye-bye guy in full Isaac Dead Space armour who did nothing but stand around".

    If it IS a decency thing, I'm against it as well. Again, anything you'd have to enforce on booth babes you'd logically have to enforce on cosplayers who show up to the convention. Welcome Home, indeed.

    And this is all coming from someone who couldn't give two shits about booth babes or cosplay. I think they're both weird. But it sure as hell ain't killing my buzz.

    TheOneWhoStoodUp on
    That's pretty far out, man!
  • Options
    Moe FwackyMoe Fwacky Right Here, Right Now Drives a BuickModerator Mod Emeritus
    edited May 2010
    This debate has the potential to become heated, and I don't want to stifle anybody from expressing their opinions, but please remember Wheaton's Law while doing so.

    Not that anybody has been less than civil, just wanted to get that out there.

    Moe Fwacky on
    E6LkoFK.png

  • Options
    olanmillsolanmills Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I think it's going to be difficult to make clearly defined rules. I don't think it's wrong to use people to attract attention even if they are not experts on the product. You might have people dressed up as game characters for instance.

    Also, at E3 and PAX, many companies use attractive people (especially women) to do things like hand out pamphlets or bags and stuff. In most cases, these people are modestly dressed in things like polos or tshirts and pants. I think that's perfectly fine too. The women that Nintendo or Sony have used in the past is a good example.

    For me, the problem is when the booth babes are dressed and/or behave in a way that's designed to be sexually provocative. Bikini-like clothes definitely fit the bill in my opinion, but that's not the only way I've seen it.

    That's just not the type of atmosphere PAX should have IMO. Sure, if you go into a booth for certain kinds of games, you might see sexual or violent promotional material in addition to whatever's in the game. If it fits the game and the audience, that's to be expected. However, I don't like it when I see booth babes at the edges of a booth that are mainly designed to catch people's initial attention sexually.

    I also wanted to add that some people seem to be saying that we can't enforce decency standards on exhiboitors because then we would have to enforce those standards on attendees as well. My first question, is why is that necessarily the case? I would be alright with stricter standards for exhibitors than attendees. Secondly, why would enforcing rules on attendees be out of the question? I would actually be in support of that too.

    olanmills on
    VmUq7mz.png
  • Options
    ploogleploogle Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I personally wasn't thrilled when I saw the people at the Borderlands booth last year. I'm all for having people dressed up as *modest* game characters to promote the product, and if they know about the game that's even better.

    PAX Attendees should be allowed to wear whatever they are legally allowed to. I may not like what I see some people wearing, but if it's not illegal to wear to the grocery store I don't see why we should ban it at PAX. I just don't want to see the game companies themselves supporting the clothing themselves.

    ploogle on
    If you can't handle me at my Worcestershire, you don't deserve me at my Bestershire.
  • Options
    chardishchardish Registered User new member
    edited May 2010
    I wrote a much longer opinion in my comments to the survey, but I'll give the Cliffs Notes version here:

    1. PAX is a big party for a bunch of friends who've never met. At a party, you want all your friends to be comfortable. Lots of people are really, really uncomfortable with the idea of booth babes. Not having booth babes keeps the peace.

    2. Booth babes create a gender disparity between men and women, as they're meant almost exclusively to attract the attention of men. Thus, it creates an environment less welcoming to women, and sends the message that the convention is meant for men. PAX is wonderful for having a female attendance much higher than would be expected; it'd be a shame if booth babes made women feel less welcome.

    3. PAX isn't about being sexually aroused, it's about the gaming culture and community. You can find sexual arousal any day of the year. You can only find PAX one (or two) weekend(s) a year.

    In short, PAX is a beautiful formula, and shouldn't be mucked with.

    chardish on
  • Options
    KliptKlipt Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I hope the fact that this got posted over at Kotaku doesn't SERIOUSLY skew the results. I mean, I love me some Kotaku, but I don't know about the community as a whole.

    Klipt on
  • Options
    gilby123gilby123 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Filled out, sir.

    My thoughts are I think there's a fine line between booth babes and attractive female gamers. I too saw the glasses booth at Pax East and found the women there were about at the borderline between the two. They weren't overly scantily clad (I for SURE saw more scantily clad women at Gen Cons and cosplaying at Pax and other conventions). That said, while I'm sure they were brought in because they were female, I found a few of the women at the UbiSoft booth (clad just in jeans and T's) to be knowledgable and I thought were just fine. Same with the women at the 2K booth. As long as they aren't trotting around in their underwear and know what they're talking about and clearly are a gamer, I think that's fine.

    I do think a few of the policies on the survey could use a bit of clarification. For example, one mentioned words/images drawing attention to certain body parts. While I agree when it comes to lettering on the seat of shorts, would T-shirts fall into this category? I say no, but someone else could make a case there too. Similarly, what counts as a shirt? Would a tanktop or something similar count?

    In any case, I clarified my views on the survey and hope it helps. I think PAX East this past year was mostly fine, with 1-2 booths walking the line, but most having no booth babes that I saw.

    gilby123 on
    "Where would we be without the agitators of the
    world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples
    of ignorance?" - John Lithgow, 3rd Rock from the Sun
  • Options
    ShigglesShiggles Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Completed. ^__^

    Shiggles on
  • Options
    SolelronSolelron Wandering Gamer Cornelius, ORRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Again its definitions though.

    There are some models who just fit and it works well with the booth. If you put up a global ban, you do deny some of the fun of a convention, which is interacting with costumed characters (I was an EQ player for years and it would have been fun to get my pic with a dark elf or Firona Vie) at a con. Even if they may not know the details, its still part of the overall atmosphere.

    Now like someone said earlier: If you bring in bikini models and are trying to sell a Zombie FPS, then you are being crazily stupid and that should be reviewed.

    And like I saw another comment: Gamers are smart. They are going to see past a lot of the 'fluff' and just look at the games. E3 isn't all gamers. it has developers and designers and other groups who can be sucked into viewing stuff.

    Solelron on
  • Options
    maxnicholsmaxnichols Registered User new member
    edited May 2010
    As someone who has been to an E3 stocked full of booth babes, and who recently went to a booth babe-free Pax East with my fiancee, I can say one thing for sure: Booth babes will be a huge detraction on the PAX experience.

    Why? Because right now, PAX is all about being a welcoming place for anyone immersed in the game culture. Every single person there, with the exception of the security guards, is a gamer. Both genders are represented - not quite equally, but a lot closer than you'd think. The instant booth babes are allowed in, both of those qualities will sink. It will feel more commercial, because the number of people who are not part of the culture and are only there because they're paid to be will quadruple. More importantly, the female gamers who come to the event, instead of feeling welcomed and like they are a part of the culture, will feel excluded... like they are not part of the culture, and never could be. And at what is probably the single largest and most important gamer geek cultural event in the western world, that is hugely damaging to both the event and the progression of game culture in general.

    Booth babes must not be allowed at Penny Arcade Expo.

    maxnichols on
  • Options
    ArcoArco Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Filled out.

    Honestly, I'm all for scantily clad people. I'm a grown-ass man, and I'm fully willing to admit that I like boobs. I know women who like naked guys. A large percentage of video games, like comic books and movies, are totally about scantily clad, kick ass, costumed badasses doing badass shit, and these games are some of my favorite games. So if you're making a video game with scantily clad characters, I think it's totally appropriate to have scantily clad people representing your game.

    I think a LOT of the resentment towards booth babes comes from booth babes not knowing the game they're affiliated with. Like many others, this is primarily what I want to avoid. If you can answer my questions about the game you're representing in an informed, intelligent, and professional manner, that's really what I'm concerned with. If you can do it while being gorgeous and skimpily dressed, that's just a bonus.

    However, I'm very sympathetic to the idea that PAX is an event that has a decent amount of minors and children. I see plenty. If someone were to float the argument that PAX is rated T-for-Teen or PG-13, and we should adhere to standards that represent those ratings, I could be easily swayed.

    Arco on
    Like this, not like the gas station.
    Organizer of the Post-PAX Party. You should come!
    Satellite Theater for life!
  • Options
    BrokenAngelBrokenAngel Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I have to throw in my vote for no booth babes as well. I find them cheap, commercial, and degrading and I would no longer feel welcome the way I do now. I like PAX being about the community, about games and our love for them. Not trying to sell people stuff with tits. Allowing booth babes will alienate a good portion of your fans and lose you a ton of points in the "making people feel welcome" category. Which is what PAX is all about.

    BrokenAngel on
    k9mk2carn.pngeleventhdoc2carn.png *Proud Head Girl of Slytherin & Team Red*
  • Options
    reyesdreyesd Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    My response to the survey was generally booth babe tolerant if they provide meaningful interaction regarding the product and aren't there simply as furniture, but another thought occurred to me later - if I end up getting stuck every few seconds behind crowds of jackasses who feel the need to "collect" all the booth babes in photos, I'm going to be annoyed.

    So, I change my mind. No booth babes!

    reyesd on
  • Options
    cptruggedcptrugged I think it has something to do with free will. Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    kraftboy wrote: »
    Down with booth babes. It's an insulting career path and with all due respect, as an engineer, girls are much smarter and more capable of such menial crap.

    See, thats just horrible. You're pretty much saying that all models are worthless because thier job is in presenting themselves to represent whatever product/idea/company. Not all people have talents in academic or intellectual persuits. Some people have charisma, self confidence, and yes. looks. These things aren't some debase, horrible thing. They're just another form of entertainer.

    I have a good friend who is a fairly successful cosplayer/model and she works hard to create her outfits and present herself at conventions or whatever job she may be doing. She loves it and she's good at it. Why should she have to go work in a cube farm programing point of sale machine code instead of doing what she wants to do to prove she's "smarter"?

    Anyway, on the booth babe thing. I think if your game has a sexy female character that is a main part of your game.. is on the cover of your game.. is on that big freakin' banner behhind you at the con. Why can't you have a cosplayer or model dressed up as them? Are we going to ban Blizzard's lifesize night elf huntress statue cause she's in a ironfeather "bikini". Are we going to ban that big ass banner of Mai flying over the KOFXIII booth? I think if its part of your game. IE you have main female characters that you are showcasing, I have no problem with the models.

    Otherwise, keep the ban if it makes people more comfortable. But honestly, as a girl, if you are interested in playing Marvel Ultimate Alliance X.. and there is a girl there dressed as Psylocke or Elektra. Do you actively avoid it, do you avoid the con-goer cosplayers too? If it was just a banner or statue, would you do the same?

    cptrugged on
  • Options
    BattyBatty Registered User new member
    edited May 2010
    Having attended quite a few technology and game conventions (never a PAX, though) I'm getting quite annoyed about this bizarre, prudish, manufactured morality being selectively applied to what is nearly always "PG" rated costumes that display no more than what can be seen on a public beach.

    Clicking back through a few recent Penny Arcade comics, I see the F-word being used in the presence of a nursing mother, a bestiality reference, a monster with penises for eyes... basically an endless series of attempts to be as offensive as possible. How is that any firmer moral ground than using a pretty girl in a bikini to promote your product at a trade show?

    Batty on
This discussion has been closed.