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My Really Smart Friend Is In A Pyramid Scheme, Right?
Actinguy1
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hey all!
As mentioned in other threads, I recently left the military, uprooted my very employed girlfriend, and moved back home to Pittsburgh where we have been unemployed ever since. As such, I've been spreading the word that I'm looking for work amongst family and friends, and have been pursuing any hints of jobs. Which leads me to this problem:
My phone rings at 10 PM, it's an old friend from high school, call him Bob. Bob lives in Boston now, but we're still close enough friends (and have enough mutual friends) that I fully intend to ask him to be a groomsman in my wedding, whenever I get around to proposing. He has a good job travelling across the country training hospital staff how to use the computer software that they just bought from his company. He's been there for years, and once told me he loves it so much he never wants to quit. He's intelligent, funny, and somebody that doesn't have a dishonest bone in his body. In short, this is a guy that I not only trust, but respect.
So he calls at 10 PM, and there's some awkward back and forth where he's asking me how I am, while I'm trying to ascertain the purpose of his call. He finally gets around to asking if I have a job yet, and I say no, so he says something like "Would you be open...", and I'm thinking he's going to ask if I'd be open to moving to Boston for a job with his company (which might very well be a "yes" answer from me). Then he hems and haws for a bit, and starts talking about how he's gotten involved with this new e-commerce opportunity, and he knows I don't have a job...
At this point, I start thinking that he's going to offer me a non-paying job at some internet start-up, with potential millions down the line...and honestly, I'm getting ready to say yes. Like I said, I trust this guy, he's really smart, and I remember reading about how even the secretary of Facebook made out like a bandit when they got bought out. I don't know that I'd necessarily invest financially, but I'm more than willing to work for free for a start-up led by someone I personally know, respect, and trust...especially when it's the only real offer I've received thus far.
But it turns out, that's not the offer at all. No, he needs to put me on the line with his "mentor", to explain the job better. Mentor? This doesn't sound good. Boss, co-worker, friend...these are people I'd be happy to talk to. Your mentor?
But the mentor gets on the line, does some kissing up, quickly mentions the company name but with a thick Indian accent (his accent is so thick that the idea that he's successfully explaining ANYTHING to me is ridiculous), and then hits the pitch: There's a job offer...he can't tell me what it is over the phone, and it's long distance (even though the number is Mike's cell phone, and he called my cell phone, so there is no long distance charge)...but there's a job offer. I just have to go to this hotel at the prescribed time and...this is very important...make sure I personally talk to the speaker after the meeting. Then he'll drive ten hours down to Pittsburgh the next day to speak with me personally and get me started.
Now, I'm no dummy. The whole thing reeks of scam. When Bob gets back on the line, I ask for the company name. He says it's Behera International. I say thanks for this incredible offer, I can't wait! (I don't want to start closing doors...and friendships...until I know what I'm talking about.)
Of course, the second he's off the phone, I'm googling Behera International. I EVENTUALLY find their website, which makes the job offer painfully clear. It flat out says that they're associated with Amway. This is one of those deals where I buy vitamins, and then try to sell vitamins to my friends, and then try to get my friends to sell vitamins because I'll get a cut of their profits, and we'll all be billionaires...except, of course, the only actual billionaires are the ones charging us for the original vitamins, plus the seminars, training videos, conferences etc on how to become a vitamin billionaire.
I'm not asking if this is legit...I know it's not. I'm asking...how do I handle my friend? I've already confirmed that he's calling other mutual friends of ours with the same offer.
tl;dr My really intelligent friend is wrapped up in an Amway pyramid scheme, and is trying to rope in other friends, including me. I honestly think he doesn't realize it's a scam. What should I do?
As mentioned in other threads, I recently left the military, uprooted my very employed girlfriend, and moved back home to Pittsburgh where we have been unemployed ever since. As such, I've been spreading the word that I'm looking for work amongst family and friends, and have been pursuing any hints of jobs. Which leads me to this problem:
My phone rings at 10 PM, it's an old friend from high school, call him Bob. Bob lives in Boston now, but we're still close enough friends (and have enough mutual friends) that I fully intend to ask him to be a groomsman in my wedding, whenever I get around to proposing. He has a good job travelling across the country training hospital staff how to use the computer software that they just bought from his company. He's been there for years, and once told me he loves it so much he never wants to quit. He's intelligent, funny, and somebody that doesn't have a dishonest bone in his body. In short, this is a guy that I not only trust, but respect.
So he calls at 10 PM, and there's some awkward back and forth where he's asking me how I am, while I'm trying to ascertain the purpose of his call. He finally gets around to asking if I have a job yet, and I say no, so he says something like "Would you be open...", and I'm thinking he's going to ask if I'd be open to moving to Boston for a job with his company (which might very well be a "yes" answer from me). Then he hems and haws for a bit, and starts talking about how he's gotten involved with this new e-commerce opportunity, and he knows I don't have a job...
At this point, I start thinking that he's going to offer me a non-paying job at some internet start-up, with potential millions down the line...and honestly, I'm getting ready to say yes. Like I said, I trust this guy, he's really smart, and I remember reading about how even the secretary of Facebook made out like a bandit when they got bought out. I don't know that I'd necessarily invest financially, but I'm more than willing to work for free for a start-up led by someone I personally know, respect, and trust...especially when it's the only real offer I've received thus far.
But it turns out, that's not the offer at all. No, he needs to put me on the line with his "mentor", to explain the job better. Mentor? This doesn't sound good. Boss, co-worker, friend...these are people I'd be happy to talk to. Your mentor?
But the mentor gets on the line, does some kissing up, quickly mentions the company name but with a thick Indian accent (his accent is so thick that the idea that he's successfully explaining ANYTHING to me is ridiculous), and then hits the pitch: There's a job offer...he can't tell me what it is over the phone, and it's long distance (even though the number is Mike's cell phone, and he called my cell phone, so there is no long distance charge)...but there's a job offer. I just have to go to this hotel at the prescribed time and...this is very important...make sure I personally talk to the speaker after the meeting. Then he'll drive ten hours down to Pittsburgh the next day to speak with me personally and get me started.
Now, I'm no dummy. The whole thing reeks of scam. When Bob gets back on the line, I ask for the company name. He says it's Behera International. I say thanks for this incredible offer, I can't wait! (I don't want to start closing doors...and friendships...until I know what I'm talking about.)
Of course, the second he's off the phone, I'm googling Behera International. I EVENTUALLY find their website, which makes the job offer painfully clear. It flat out says that they're associated with Amway. This is one of those deals where I buy vitamins, and then try to sell vitamins to my friends, and then try to get my friends to sell vitamins because I'll get a cut of their profits, and we'll all be billionaires...except, of course, the only actual billionaires are the ones charging us for the original vitamins, plus the seminars, training videos, conferences etc on how to become a vitamin billionaire.
I'm not asking if this is legit...I know it's not. I'm asking...how do I handle my friend? I've already confirmed that he's calling other mutual friends of ours with the same offer.
tl;dr My really intelligent friend is wrapped up in an Amway pyramid scheme, and is trying to rope in other friends, including me. I honestly think he doesn't realize it's a scam. What should I do?
Actinguy1 on
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I'd say, rather politely yet firm, "No thanks." Continue until he stops asking you.
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If he's actually a relatively smart guy, then the level of desperation that got him to ignore his own misgivings will be more than enough to override any assistance you might offer. It sounds like a dick move, but you just have to kind of let him get through this himself. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but you almost certainly can't help him.
BUT, while a pyramid scheme is a little non-traditional, I've known a guy who got sucked in too. While he didn't get into it in a big way, the profit margins were decent and someone who worked at it could find themselves making a living with it. Where people end up getting scammed is when they spend a few hundred bucks on their initial stock and expect the product to do the work for them.
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It's a different company, a different quality of goods!
Actually it's parent company is Alticor, Inc, which is also the parent of Amway. So yes, it is Amway, yes it is a pyramid scheme.
As for the OP, man, that's tough. Best you can do is warn your other friends about it and try to talk to Bob. But yeah, if he believes it either through desperation or whatever, it's going to be really tough to get him out. I'm guessing you guys are in your 20s, 30s? Would involving Bob's parents or family be a good idea/possibility? Maybe talk to his brother/sister and let them know what he's up to.
I actually once had a slightly similar situation with my sister. Right after she got her degree in finance, she got a job with some "investment firm", and it sounded like a great situation for her. They treated her like a princess, and even said she could bring on her pregnant high school dropout cousin (to work as a secretary or something). Then one day, she calls in an extremely awkward voice to ask if I want to invest with her. I normally would have...but she sounded so weird that I checked out the company online. It was a big scam. She didn't know of course, so after discussing it with family (who had their own misgivings but hadn't found the evidence that I had), I told her as gently as I could. She quit the next day.
Anyhow, I think maybe I'll call today under the guise of asking a few questions...and see if I can manage to gently wake him up here...or at least determine just how far down the rabbit hole he's already fallen.
You're currently unemployed so it will be harder to make a convincing argument against signing up, but I would suggest coming up with a sensible reason why you aren't jumping on board other than "It's a pyramid scam".
I've seen things like this lead to a lot of resentment between friends. Either Party A resents Party B for not signing up to help them out, or Party B resents Party A for putting them in the position of feeling obligated to sign up.
When something like this was presented to me by a friend, I just explained that I didn't have enough contacts or network established to be successful at it. I didn't try to talk her out of it. (She had already bought in for the $400 signup fee) Eventually she figured out that she'd get nowhere with it and gave it up.
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
I mean
the guy is a good friend yes?
They are, but it's hard to do much about it unless they're breaking some other law, like not actually giving you the product you buy or financial fraud.
And I believe it's a civil matter, so best they can do is try to shut them down and/or pay fines.
As for your problem, you have two choices:
1) Say no thanks, let it go, and never mention it again. Pray he wises up real quick and is only out money that he can afford to lose.
2) Find a way to discreetly and tactfully tell your friend that you think he's getting involved in a quasi-pyramid scheme, and that you are worried that he may be losing some of his hard-earned cash. Tell him that you were really looking forward to working with him, thank him for the opportunity, but make it clear that you don't feel comfortable getting into it and that as his friend, you recommend he get out as soon as possible.
If you really want, you can tell all your mutual friends to stay the hell away from it, too. The problem with this is that some might take it the wrong way, and if he finds out, he may take it the wrong way, too (i.e. "That Actingguy1 fucker screwed me out of $$$ and helping my friends make $$$.").
Speaking from personal experience, some things people just have to learn themselves. But at the same time, if you want to be a true friend, you should probably try to find a way to say something that at least gets him to wise up more quickly, if you're uncomfortable just flat out telling him (or if you believe that it wouldn't be constructive).
It is quite possible to have heard of pyramid scams but not know quite how they work. Amway will deny they are a pyramid scheme, because they sell real products. They are not legally a pyramid scheme, but for the suckers at the bottom they might as well be.
I think the straightforward approach is the most friendly approach. Just say you have researched it, and found it reeks of scam. Don't say "Hahahah Amway, what are you, some kind of idiot?" - anyone would take offense at that.
Just give him the plain facts and let him make his own mind up. Make sure your facts are solid, because otherwise this intelligent guy will pick holes in them and go away even more convinced of his rightness.
Google turned up this:
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
Franchises only make sense because their good name makes people seek them out over other similar businesses. You might go to Subways over Jimmy's Sandwich Store because you've been to other Subways and know what sort of food they offer. But few people seek out Amway's product, so you might as well buy vitamins in bulk and try to sell them to your friends on your own account as pay for Behera's, since no-one has ever heard of them. You'd make more profit that way too, because you would be able to vary your suppliers and wouldn't need to pay Behera.
I can tell you this method works for me 100% of the time, but then again I'm the asshole in the group of my friends - but biting remarks with truth and facts work.
I have plenty of smart friends who are complete idiots, being smart doesn't necessarily translate into common sense and good decision making.
So I said something along the lines of I'd wasn't happy to get involved with Amway or any associated company, given previous experience and that worked.
I don't know if that would work in your situation though, as they seem to be making a much harder sell. It could be that you are going to have to be quite blunt
"You're selling overprice vitamins for Amway. This is a stupid pyramid scheme. Get the hell out before you waste a ton of money on pills nobody wants."
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
No one got the reference?
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is that from Go?
If he doesn't come around, you need to just agree to disagree, and ask that he not bring it up again. You did your good-faith effort to talk him out of it, so you can walk away with a clear conscience.
They're both hardcore libertarians - both have big dreams of earning millions and retiring by the time their 30 - one has so much charisma and is so personable that he's actually climbing that shitty ladder.
They both deserve to get eaten alive.
They love going to their little seminars/conferences and feeling self-important though.
They are literally a business cult.
You don't need to be a genius to know that this is too good to be true. Add to that the secret "other business" and you get a big lie. If this is a friend you trust, I would try to get him out of it.
I wouldn't say this is completely the same only because, in my experience, hearing that sort of thing from your child (even adult child) is probably very different from hearing it from a presumably close friend.
You might have a much more functional family than I do but there's a whole pride/stubborn/paternal dynamic that makes telling them that they are being fleeced a lot more difficult than it would be with a peer.
I would definitely suggest that the OP talk to his friend. At least engage in a conversation with him about it that's seperate from the "pitch" conversation he was giving you to try to see how into this he really is.
Overall, I was pretty proud of how I'd handled it...until I got his response.
He said he already knew it was Amway and that there's a lot of negative press out there, but it's a really good deal and the Better Business Bureau says they're real, and if I don't want to join, then I should definitely buy the stuff from him just for my personal use...
...in other words, he's so far down the rabbit hole, there's no getting him back.
I've lost a lot of the respect that I had for him and his intelligence level...and won't be so quick to answer his calls at 10 PM any more...but at least I didn't lose any money in the deal, gave him all the information I had, and still managed to keep him as a friend (albeit, one that fell a few rungs on my own personal social ladder). So, thanks for everyone's advice!
tl;dr Calmly gave him all the info...he didn't care. Resolved!
Sounds like he's pretty far in, but to me that doesn't mean "welp, I tried once, fuck it!"
Don't buy his products, don't lend him money for his "business", don't warn other friends about him, just ignore the whole topic. That way when he finally sees the light, you won't have lost his friendship.
If you keep arguing with him about it you will not persuade him, you'll just make it a point of pride for him to prove himself right by making a success of it, which will make it harder to leave when doubts surface.