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My Really Smart Friend Is In A Pyramid Scheme, Right?

Actinguy1Actinguy1 Registered User regular
edited June 2010 in Help / Advice Forum
Hey all!

As mentioned in other threads, I recently left the military, uprooted my very employed girlfriend, and moved back home to Pittsburgh where we have been unemployed ever since. As such, I've been spreading the word that I'm looking for work amongst family and friends, and have been pursuing any hints of jobs. Which leads me to this problem:

My phone rings at 10 PM, it's an old friend from high school, call him Bob. Bob lives in Boston now, but we're still close enough friends (and have enough mutual friends) that I fully intend to ask him to be a groomsman in my wedding, whenever I get around to proposing. He has a good job travelling across the country training hospital staff how to use the computer software that they just bought from his company. He's been there for years, and once told me he loves it so much he never wants to quit. He's intelligent, funny, and somebody that doesn't have a dishonest bone in his body. In short, this is a guy that I not only trust, but respect.

So he calls at 10 PM, and there's some awkward back and forth where he's asking me how I am, while I'm trying to ascertain the purpose of his call. He finally gets around to asking if I have a job yet, and I say no, so he says something like "Would you be open...", and I'm thinking he's going to ask if I'd be open to moving to Boston for a job with his company (which might very well be a "yes" answer from me). Then he hems and haws for a bit, and starts talking about how he's gotten involved with this new e-commerce opportunity, and he knows I don't have a job...

At this point, I start thinking that he's going to offer me a non-paying job at some internet start-up, with potential millions down the line...and honestly, I'm getting ready to say yes. Like I said, I trust this guy, he's really smart, and I remember reading about how even the secretary of Facebook made out like a bandit when they got bought out. I don't know that I'd necessarily invest financially, but I'm more than willing to work for free for a start-up led by someone I personally know, respect, and trust...especially when it's the only real offer I've received thus far.

But it turns out, that's not the offer at all. No, he needs to put me on the line with his "mentor", to explain the job better. Mentor? This doesn't sound good. Boss, co-worker, friend...these are people I'd be happy to talk to. Your mentor?

But the mentor gets on the line, does some kissing up, quickly mentions the company name but with a thick Indian accent (his accent is so thick that the idea that he's successfully explaining ANYTHING to me is ridiculous), and then hits the pitch: There's a job offer...he can't tell me what it is over the phone, and it's long distance (even though the number is Mike's cell phone, and he called my cell phone, so there is no long distance charge)...but there's a job offer. I just have to go to this hotel at the prescribed time and...this is very important...make sure I personally talk to the speaker after the meeting. Then he'll drive ten hours down to Pittsburgh the next day to speak with me personally and get me started.

Now, I'm no dummy. The whole thing reeks of scam. When Bob gets back on the line, I ask for the company name. He says it's Behera International. I say thanks for this incredible offer, I can't wait! (I don't want to start closing doors...and friendships...until I know what I'm talking about.)

Of course, the second he's off the phone, I'm googling Behera International. I EVENTUALLY find their website, which makes the job offer painfully clear. It flat out says that they're associated with Amway. This is one of those deals where I buy vitamins, and then try to sell vitamins to my friends, and then try to get my friends to sell vitamins because I'll get a cut of their profits, and we'll all be billionaires...except, of course, the only actual billionaires are the ones charging us for the original vitamins, plus the seminars, training videos, conferences etc on how to become a vitamin billionaire.

I'm not asking if this is legit...I know it's not. I'm asking...how do I handle my friend? I've already confirmed that he's calling other mutual friends of ours with the same offer.

tl;dr My really intelligent friend is wrapped up in an Amway pyramid scheme, and is trying to rope in other friends, including me. I honestly think he doesn't realize it's a scam. What should I do?

Actinguy1 on
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Posts

  • DeadfallDeadfall I don't think you realize just how rich he is. In fact, I should put on a monocle.Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    It's been my experience that folks that get caught up in this sort of thing really get caught up in it, so much that nothing you do will convince them that their "golden opportunity" is nothing more than a scheme.

    I'd say, rather politely yet firm, "No thanks." Continue until he stops asking you.

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  • Actinguy1Actinguy1 Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Yeah, my first instinct is to simply lie and say I just can't afford the investment, but thanks for the offer anyway, and then act like it never happened (while making sure no other friends fall for it)...but at the same time, I really want to make sure this guy doesn't throw away his life savings or even quit the job he loves in pursuit of this scam.

    Actinguy1 on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Actinguy1 wrote: »
    Yeah, my first instinct is to simply lie and say I just can't afford the investment, but thanks for the offer anyway, and then act like it never happened (while making sure no other friends fall for it)...but at the same time, I really want to make sure this guy doesn't throw away his life savings or even quit the job he loves in pursuit of this scam.

    If he's actually a relatively smart guy, then the level of desperation that got him to ignore his own misgivings will be more than enough to override any assistance you might offer. It sounds like a dick move, but you just have to kind of let him get through this himself. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but you almost certainly can't help him.

    mcdermott on
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    The most you can do is show him what you've found, perhaps ask him how it is not a pyramid scheme.

    Improvolone on
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  • eternalbleternalbl Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    He loves his job. He probably just got suckered into signing up and thought it might be a good way to make money on weekends. The fact that he didn't want to just come out and say 'I've got this sweet gravy train and I can't think of anyone I'd rather share it with' but instead hummed and hawed tells you he knows the idea sounds retarded to almost everyone. He probably thinks it's a retarded idea and was just trying to be nice to the guy who invited him.

    BUT, while a pyramid scheme is a little non-traditional, I've known a guy who got sucked in too. While he didn't get into it in a big way, the profit margins were decent and someone who worked at it could find themselves making a living with it. Where people end up getting scammed is when they spend a few hundred bucks on their initial stock and expect the product to do the work for them.

    eternalbl on
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  • UrianUrian __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2010
    I knew a guy who got into this shit. The most striking thing about it is how awkward the guy I knew was when he called me asking to "be involved" with it, sounds kind of like your situation. It's almost like someone is standing behind them listening intently to every word they say to make sure they stay on script. The guy in question isn't exactly a close friend, we work out together sometimes, but he's not as awkward as he was on the phone. Pyramid schemes, vector, companies like that all just reek of creepiness to me. A girl who cuts my hair sometimes saw me at Starbucks with a friend one time a while back, she apparently works at Vector on weekends (another pyramid scheme company that has to do with selling knives) and she tried to pitch me on joining. There was a look in her eyes that made it look like she'd been fucking injected with something.

    Urian on
  • saltinesssaltiness Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Stay the fuck away from that shit.

    saltiness on
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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    show him the website?

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  • FalxFalx Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Depending on how far you want to take it... ask the police? Or maybe contact the FBI? It's the only way there's a chance of him eventually getting his money back.

    Falx on
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    It's not really a pyramid scheme so I don't think it's illegal (like you said it's like Amway). That said, I wouldn't get involved as those things are basically a scam.

    tsmvengy on
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  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    It's not really a pyramid scheme so I don't think it's illegal (like you said it's like Amway). That said, I wouldn't get involved as those things are basically a scam.

    It's a different company, a different quality of goods!

    Actually it's parent company is Alticor, Inc, which is also the parent of Amway. So yes, it is Amway, yes it is a pyramid scheme.

    As for the OP, man, that's tough. Best you can do is warn your other friends about it and try to talk to Bob. But yeah, if he believes it either through desperation or whatever, it's going to be really tough to get him out. I'm guessing you guys are in your 20s, 30s? Would involving Bob's parents or family be a good idea/possibility? Maybe talk to his brother/sister and let them know what he's up to.

    MichaelLC on
  • Actinguy1Actinguy1 Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Thanks for all the advice! Yeah, we're in our mid-to-late twenties. I don't have any contact with his family.

    I actually once had a slightly similar situation with my sister. Right after she got her degree in finance, she got a job with some "investment firm", and it sounded like a great situation for her. They treated her like a princess, and even said she could bring on her pregnant high school dropout cousin (to work as a secretary or something). Then one day, she calls in an extremely awkward voice to ask if I want to invest with her. I normally would have...but she sounded so weird that I checked out the company online. It was a big scam. She didn't know of course, so after discussing it with family (who had their own misgivings but hadn't found the evidence that I had), I told her as gently as I could. She quit the next day.

    Anyhow, I think maybe I'll call today under the guise of asking a few questions...and see if I can manage to gently wake him up here...or at least determine just how far down the rabbit hole he's already fallen.

    Actinguy1 on
  • BeltaineBeltaine BOO BOO DOO DE DOORegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I've dealt with this sort of thing before.

    You're currently unemployed so it will be harder to make a convincing argument against signing up, but I would suggest coming up with a sensible reason why you aren't jumping on board other than "It's a pyramid scam".

    I've seen things like this lead to a lot of resentment between friends. Either Party A resents Party B for not signing up to help them out, or Party B resents Party A for putting them in the position of feeling obligated to sign up.

    When something like this was presented to me by a friend, I just explained that I didn't have enough contacts or network established to be successful at it. I didn't try to talk her out of it. (She had already bought in for the $400 signup fee) Eventually she figured out that she'd get nowhere with it and gave it up.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Just because someone is smart doesn't know they know what a pyramid scheme is or have heard of Amway. Lots of really smart people get scammed by them. Give your friend the facts.

    CelestialBadger on
  • The Black HunterThe Black Hunter The key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple, unimpeachable reason to existRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I'd call him up and say "hey man, I don't think this thing is a good idea, sounds a great deal like those pyramid schemes"

    I mean

    the guy is a good friend yes?

    The Black Hunter on
  • SideAffectsSideAffects Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    This may be the dumbest thing I've ever said, but aren't pyramid schemes "illegal"?

    SideAffects on
  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    This may be the dumbest thing I've ever said, but aren't pyramid schemes "illegal"?

    They are, but it's hard to do much about it unless they're breaking some other law, like not actually giving you the product you buy or financial fraud.

    And I believe it's a civil matter, so best they can do is try to shut them down and/or pay fines.

    MichaelLC on
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Plenty of smart, independently wealthy people got taken in by Bernie Madoff, too. Intelligence ain't got nothing to do with it. It's all about the street smarts, I tell ya.


    As for your problem, you have two choices:

    1) Say no thanks, let it go, and never mention it again. Pray he wises up real quick and is only out money that he can afford to lose.

    2) Find a way to discreetly and tactfully tell your friend that you think he's getting involved in a quasi-pyramid scheme, and that you are worried that he may be losing some of his hard-earned cash. Tell him that you were really looking forward to working with him, thank him for the opportunity, but make it clear that you don't feel comfortable getting into it and that as his friend, you recommend he get out as soon as possible.


    If you really want, you can tell all your mutual friends to stay the hell away from it, too. The problem with this is that some might take it the wrong way, and if he finds out, he may take it the wrong way, too (i.e. "That Actingguy1 fucker screwed me out of $$$ and helping my friends make $$$.").

    Speaking from personal experience, some things people just have to learn themselves. But at the same time, if you want to be a true friend, you should probably try to find a way to say something that at least gets him to wise up more quickly, if you're uncomfortable just flat out telling him (or if you believe that it wouldn't be constructive).

    Inquisitor77 on
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Everyone is assuming Bob is self-deluded and will freak out if Actinguy1 mentions the word "scam" and never talk to him again. But what if Bob simply is misinformed, and does not know what pyramid scams/Amway are?

    It is quite possible to have heard of pyramid scams but not know quite how they work. Amway will deny they are a pyramid scheme, because they sell real products. They are not legally a pyramid scheme, but for the suckers at the bottom they might as well be.

    I think the straightforward approach is the most friendly approach. Just say you have researched it, and found it reeks of scam. Don't say "Hahahah Amway, what are you, some kind of idiot?" - anyone would take offense at that.

    Just give him the plain facts and let him make his own mind up. Make sure your facts are solid, because otherwise this intelligent guy will pick holes in them and go away even more convinced of his rightness.

    CelestialBadger on
  • BeltaineBeltaine BOO BOO DOO DE DOORegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    They call it Multi-Level Marketing.

    Google turned up this:
    The big difference between MLM and a pyramid scheme is in the business' operations. The entire purpose of a pyramid scheme is to get your money and then use you to recruit other suckers (ahem - distributors). The entire purpose of MLM is to move product. The theory behind MLM is that the larger the network of distributors, the more product the business will be able to sell.

    Use these questions as an acid test if you're in the least doubt as to whether the opportunity you're considering is MLM or a pyramid scheme:

    1) Are you required to "invest" a large amount of money up front to become a distributor? This investment request may be disguised as an inventory charge. Legitimate MLM businesses do NOT require large start up costs.

    2) If you do have to pay for inventory, will the company buy back unsold inventory? Legitimate MLM companies will offer and stick to inventory buy-backs for at least 80% of what you paid.

    3) Is there any mention of or attention paid to a market for the product or service? MLM depends on establishing a market for the company's products. If the company doesn't seem to have any interest in the consumer demand for its products, don't sign up.

    4) Is there more emphasis on recruitment than on selling the product or service? Remember, the difference between MLM and a pyramid scheme is in the focus. The pyramid scheme focuses on fast profits from signing people up and getting their money. If recruitment seems to be the focus of the plan, run. These next two questions will help you determine what the focus of the company is:

    5) Is the plan designed so that you make more money by recruiting new members rather than through sales that you make yourself?

    6) Are you offered commissions for recruiting new members?

    As always, when you're investigating a potential business opportunity, you'll want to gather all the information you can about the MLM company's products and operations.

    Get (and read) written copies of the company's sales literature, business plan and/or marketing plan. Talk to other people who have experience with the MLM company and the products, to determine whether the products are actually being sold and if they are of high quality. Check with the Better Business Bureau to see if there have been any complaints about the company. And listen carefully when you're at that MLM recruitment meeting. Inflated claims for the amazing amounts of money you're going to make should set your alarm bells ringing.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Even if something is a "legit" MLM scheme, I reckon you'd make more money with your free time doing something like making crafts to sell at local markets, or keeping bees, or fixing virus-infested PCs - whatever your talent is. Smart people don't need to be spoonfed a free-time small business.

    Franchises only make sense because their good name makes people seek them out over other similar businesses. You might go to Subways over Jimmy's Sandwich Store because you've been to other Subways and know what sort of food they offer. But few people seek out Amway's product, so you might as well buy vitamins in bulk and try to sell them to your friends on your own account as pay for Behera's, since no-one has ever heard of them. You'd make more profit that way too, because you would be able to vary your suppliers and wouldn't need to pay Behera.

    CelestialBadger on
  • DHS OdiumDHS Odium Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Call your friend a fucking asshole and an idiot. I'm serious about my advice too. Then explain why he almost got himself uninvited from your eventual wedding. Throw in an explanation in the middle of all that.

    I can tell you this method works for me 100% of the time, but then again I'm the asshole in the group of my friends - but biting remarks with truth and facts work.

    I have plenty of smart friends who are complete idiots, being smart doesn't necessarily translate into common sense and good decision making.

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  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I don't have to treat my friends with kid gloves, we trust each other

    Improvolone on
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  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I had a similar situation with a good friend, although in my case it was slightly easier for me as we'd moved to different cities and were not as close as we'd been. I'd also had a run in with friends of my parents who had fallen to Amway while I was at High School and I'd seen how silly that situation got with my parents trying to play along without getting involved or offending them.

    So I said something along the lines of I'd wasn't happy to get involved with Amway or any associated company, given previous experience and that worked.

    I don't know if that would work in your situation though, as they seem to be making a much harder sell. It could be that you are going to have to be quite blunt

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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I don't have to treat my friends with kid gloves, we trust each other

    "You're selling overprice vitamins for Amway. This is a stupid pyramid scheme. Get the hell out before you waste a ton of money on pills nobody wants."

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  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    This is a scam. Or an attempt to get you in a hotel room for non-consentual group sex. Either way, don't go.

    GungHo on
  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    MichaelLC wrote: »
    It's a different company, a different quality of goods!

    No one got the reference?

    MichaelLC on
  • AlyceInWonderlandAlyceInWonderland Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I'm in a similar position with my Dad. He's doing Shaklee shit, where you buy their products (they're admittedly pretty damn good household products) and get other people to sign on as a 'gold member' and then they buy the products and they as well as he make profit. Yeah....it doesn't work. At all. He keeps putting money INTO Shaklee but never gets any back. There's no reasoning with them, because he's going to think that you're not supportive of his investments. Keep your mouth shut, and let him ride it out. He'll learn the hard way, unfortunately.

    AlyceInWonderland on
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited June 2010
    My mother swore by shaklee for a long time, and she had a friend who supplied her with the stuff, though she never had any interest in selling it herself.

    ceres on
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  • mehmehmehmehmehmeh Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    MichaelLC wrote: »
    MichaelLC wrote: »
    It's a different company, a different quality of goods!

    No one got the reference?

    is that from Go?

    mehmehmeh on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    If he's a good enough friend that he's going to be a groomsman at your wedding, I think you have a duty to make a single effort at talking him out of it. Point out that it's Amway, that while it may be legal, it really is a scam, and that he's likely to lose out on a lot of friends (both ones already made, and making new ones) by becoming "that vitamin dude."

    If he doesn't come around, you need to just agree to disagree, and ask that he not bring it up again. You did your good-faith effort to talk him out of it, so you can walk away with a clear conscience.

    Thanatos on
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I know two pretty intelligent people that are involved with Amyway selling XS Energy drinks or some crap.

    They're both hardcore libertarians - both have big dreams of earning millions and retiring by the time their 30 - one has so much charisma and is so personable that he's actually climbing that shitty ladder.

    They both deserve to get eaten alive.

    They love going to their little seminars/conferences and feeling self-important though.

    SkyGheNe on
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    BTW - you can watch and learn all you need to know about quixtar/amway from here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-215989802739458876#

    They are literally a business cult.

    SkyGheNe on
  • BartholamueBartholamue Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I've actually been to a Amway meeting. The promises they make are pretty far fetched, and the speaker kind of mocked people with jobs. I thought of it after a day or two, and yes, it is a scam. You need to reach out to a lot of people just to make a decent pay with this.

    You don't need to be a genius to know that this is too good to be true. Add to that the secret "other business" and you get a big lie. If this is a friend you trust, I would try to get him out of it.

    Bartholamue on
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  • NODeNODe Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I'm in a similar position with my Dad. He's doing Shaklee shit, where you buy their products (they're admittedly pretty damn good household products) and get other people to sign on as a 'gold member' and then they buy the products and they as well as he make profit. Yeah....it doesn't work. At all. He keeps putting money INTO Shaklee but never gets any back. There's no reasoning with them, because he's going to think that you're not supportive of his investments. Keep your mouth shut, and let him ride it out. He'll learn the hard way, unfortunately.

    I wouldn't say this is completely the same only because, in my experience, hearing that sort of thing from your child (even adult child) is probably very different from hearing it from a presumably close friend.
    You might have a much more functional family than I do but there's a whole pride/stubborn/paternal dynamic that makes telling them that they are being fleeced a lot more difficult than it would be with a peer.

    I would definitely suggest that the OP talk to his friend. At least engage in a conversation with him about it that's seperate from the "pitch" conversation he was giving you to try to see how into this he really is.

    NODe on
  • Actinguy1Actinguy1 Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    UPDATE: Sent him a text, saying that I had discovered that Behema is actually a new name for Amway, and "Google is unkind to Amway...including a two-part Chris Hansen NBC Investigation." I told him I just wanted to give him a heads up on what I'd found, and I really did appreciate the offer and to let me know if he hears about any other job possibilities, and by the way, when is he going to be in town next because we have a bachelor party to plan (we're both groomsmen in another friend's wedding this summer.)

    Overall, I was pretty proud of how I'd handled it...until I got his response.

    He said he already knew it was Amway and that there's a lot of negative press out there, but it's a really good deal and the Better Business Bureau says they're real, and if I don't want to join, then I should definitely buy the stuff from him just for my personal use...

    ...in other words, he's so far down the rabbit hole, there's no getting him back.

    I've lost a lot of the respect that I had for him and his intelligence level...and won't be so quick to answer his calls at 10 PM any more...but at least I didn't lose any money in the deal, gave him all the information I had, and still managed to keep him as a friend (albeit, one that fell a few rungs on my own personal social ladder). So, thanks for everyone's advice!

    tl;dr Calmly gave him all the info...he didn't care. Resolved!

    Actinguy1 on
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I'd still follow up with "real companies can still have shitty business models that will lose you money, just be careful"

    Sounds like he's pretty far in, but to me that doesn't mean "welp, I tried once, fuck it!"

    Improvolone on
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  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2010
    You can't really help him at this point unfortunately. Any evidence you provide that it's a scam will be ignored by him. He's going to have to come to that realization on his own.

    Druhim on
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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Yeah. You can't persuade him now. The only thing you can do is ignore it.

    Don't buy his products, don't lend him money for his "business", don't warn other friends about him, just ignore the whole topic. That way when he finally sees the light, you won't have lost his friendship.

    If you keep arguing with him about it you will not persuade him, you'll just make it a point of pride for him to prove himself right by making a success of it, which will make it harder to leave when doubts surface.

    CelestialBadger on
  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2010
    Uh, have to disagree strongly with not warning other friends. Dick move in my book. Just give them a heads up at least.

    Druhim on
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