I know you aren't terribly interested in the canon of the original novel, but since Bilbo gets knocked out at the beginning of the Battle of the Five Armies perhaps you could use that to justify not showing a lot of that battle and maybe even allow the dwarfs to die off screen instead of not dying at all.
Though I haven't seen the EE yet so I don't know if there is a way to make an off screen death flow well.
Gimli never does give his story about Balin and the messengers of Sauron coming and plying the Dwarves for information, does he?
There was an importance to the restoration of the mountain addressed in the books (ironically in cut-content from when everyone was hanging out in Minas Tirith after the war, later published in Unfinished Tales), stating that the restoration of Erebor and Dale tilted the balance of power in the North back towards the good guys, and that Sauron would have used Smaug to burn everything from Mirkwood to Rivendell.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I know you aren't terribly interested in the canon of the original novel, but since Bilbo gets knocked out at the beginning of the Battle of the Five Armies perhaps you could use that to justify not showing a lot of that battle and maybe even allow the dwarfs to die off screen instead of not dying at all.
Though I haven't seen the EE yet so I don't know if there is a way to make an off screen death flow well.
Maybe? It doesn't sound very cinematic, though.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Gimli never does give his story about Balin and the messengers of Sauron coming and plying the Dwarves for information, does he?
There was an importance to the restoration of the mountain addressed in the books (ironically in cut-content from when everyone was hanging out in Minas Tirith after the war, later published in Unfinished Tales), stating that the restoration of Erebor and Dale tilted the balance of power in the North back towards the good guys, and that Sauron would have used Smaug to burn everything from Mirkwood to Rivendell.
Yeah, and Gandalf makes that argument to Thranduil in BOTFA, so that's definitely staying in. It's a huge tie to the other LOTR movies.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Just something to keep in mind:
The Galadriel/Kili arc explains why Kili, Fili, and the others aren't with the rest at lonely mountain, and why they're still at Laketown when Smaug comes.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
I guess if you ignore all that pesky context within the movies and also ignore the books... maybe?
Have fun with it but it seems like a hatchet job project rather than something to actually improve the films to me.
Maybe you can give an argument why keeping Thorin dead is a better cinematic and/or narrative choice?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'd like to hear your opinion.
The whole arc of Thorin and Bilbo's relationship is a matter of pride versus reason. Throughout the books Bilbo always errs on the side of reasonable action while Thorin takes the prideful action to appease his sense of honor. Over the course of the books, Thorin's actions push Bilbo to take risks and Bilbo (somewhat) tempers Thorin to try a more reasonable solution to their problems. Thorin's entire death shows the end moral of the entire narrative of the Hobbit.
"Child of the kindly West, I have come to know, if more of us valued your ways - food and cheer above hoarded gold - it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."
Then he dies, and with him dies his line of proud kings. Only leaving the toymakers and veterans and cooks and commonfolk that followed him to build the nation and home that he envisioned and lost the way of over the course of the book. Bilbo learned that without risk the world is a sad and small place, but with too much pride the world falls into ruin and unnecessary war.
Now, admittedly, I still think the Arthur Rankin Hobbit cartoon tells the story better in many ways than Peter Jackson's vision (mostly because it's pretty true to the source material), but I also think a lot of what you are cutting provides a lot of value beyond the immediate narrative. Lake Town provides yet another glimpse into a wider human world and shows not only the Kinglore mythos that Aragorn will later also show, but provides a very different set of humanity and values than we see in Rohan or Gondor. While the battle inside the Lonely Mountain was waaaaaay too long, a shorter version does show the industry and value of the dwarves beyond making giant caves. You see what they can do when they set their minds to it and in many ways it explains Saroman's later apparent jump in technology in the later books (Jackson's Hobbit shows many folk have these tools, just most that do have been in decline).
The Tauriel love story I agree with cutting, though the Azog arc is something I think was a positive addition to the story, especially with Sauron being a larger figure in the Hobbit in Jackson. His hunting of Thorin not only ties in with the fall of Moria later on but also with the reason the region Sauron would strike at Lonely Mountain and Dale first (to finance and gain the tools and industry of the Lonely Mountain). Bard's kids, while not really important, do make for some suspense during the Battle of Five Armies. Depending on how much is cut they could be kept or left.
Stephen Fry was a great Master and I think he added to the intention of Tolkien's story. Bard is a major character both in the Kinglore mythos as well as in the events of the Hobbit, and the Master is his chief antagonist. It also shows an echo with the Rohan problem of buerocrats taking over from the Kinglore and the problems therein, which (while undemocratic) is a recurring theme in LotR.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Also I love the barrel scene. It is over the top silly fun fighting and sort of snapshots the entire tone of The Hobbit for me. It's a much lighter tale about a much less serious time, where even in battle there is a cheerful, almost over-the-top grandfather's goofy war story feel to it.
Maybe it didn't actually happen like that! But, really, I entirely see Bilbo telling the story that it did.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
The Galadriel/Kili arc explains why Kili, Fili, and the others aren't with the rest at lonely mountain, and why they're still at Laketown when Smaug comes.
Meh. I think there are so many dwarves, no one is going to notice a few missing in the scenes that are kept.
I mostly agree with Enc's analysis re: Thorin's death.
And re: the Master: Movie Master is a terrible caricature of Book Master, but I think Stephen Fry plays Movie Master perfectly (i.e, giving Jackson exactly what he wanted). I'd still cut as much of him as possible, other than possibly him greeting Thorin & co in Laketown.
Also I love the barrel scene. It is over the top silly fun fighting and sort of snapshots the entire tone of The Hobbit for me. It's a much lighter tale about a much less serious time, where even in battle there is a cheerful, almost over-the-top grandfather's goofy war story feel to it.
Maybe it didn't actually happen like that! But, really, I entirely see Bilbo telling the story that it did.
I mean, I don't know if I should advocate for a scene just because it made me laugh, but holy shit did Bombur in that barrel make me laugh harder than I have during a movie in a long time.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
The Galadriel/Kili arc explains why Kili, Fili, and the others aren't with the rest at lonely mountain, and why they're still at Laketown when Smaug comes.
Yeah, I've already seen some edits elsewhere that successfully get around this. Especially by removing the foundry chase with Smaug, you don't really notice the lack of Kili, Fili, Bombur, and Oin. I may look at digitally reinserting them on some longer shots just for numerical continuity, but I'm fairly confident this works.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I guess if you ignore all that pesky context within the movies and also ignore the books... maybe?
Have fun with it but it seems like a hatchet job project rather than something to actually improve the films to me.
Maybe you can give an argument why keeping Thorin dead is a better cinematic and/or narrative choice?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'd like to hear your opinion.
The whole arc of Thorin and Bilbo's relationship is a matter of pride versus reason. Throughout the books Bilbo always errs on the side of reasonable action while Thorin takes the prideful action to appease his sense of honor. Over the course of the books, Thorin's actions push Bilbo to take risks and Bilbo (somewhat) tempers Thorin to try a more reasonable solution to their problems. Thorin's entire death shows the end moral of the entire narrative of the Hobbit.
"Child of the kindly West, I have come to know, if more of us valued your ways - food and cheer above hoarded gold - it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."
Then he dies, and with him dies his line of proud kings. Only leaving the toymakers and veterans and cooks and commonfolk that followed him to build the nation and home that he envisioned and lost the way of over the course of the book. Bilbo learned that without risk the world is a sad and small place, but with too much pride the world falls into ruin and unnecessary war.
Now, admittedly, I still think the Arthur Rankin Hobbit cartoon tells the story better in many ways than Peter Jackson's vision (mostly because it's pretty true to the source material), but I also think a lot of what you are cutting provides a lot of value beyond the immediate narrative. Lake Town provides yet another glimpse into a wider human world and shows not only the Kinglore mythos that Aragorn will later also show, but provides a very different set of humanity and values than we see in Rohan or Gondor. While the battle inside the Lonely Mountain was waaaaaay too long, a shorter version does show the industry and value of the dwarves beyond making giant caves. You see what they can do when they set their minds to it and in many ways it explains Saroman's later apparent jump in technology in the later books (Jackson's Hobbit shows many folk have these tools, just most that do have been in decline).
The Tauriel love story I agree with cutting, though the Azog arc is something I think was a positive addition to the story, especially with Sauron being a larger figure in the Hobbit in Jackson. His hunting of Thorin not only ties in with the fall of Moria later on but also with the reason the region Sauron would strike at Lonely Mountain and Dale first (to finance and gain the tools and industry of the Lonely Mountain). Bard's kids, while not really important, do make for some suspense during the Battle of Five Armies. Depending on how much is cut they could be kept or left.
Stephen Fry was a great Master and I think he added to the intention of Tolkien's story. Bard is a major character both in the Kinglore mythos as well as in the events of the Hobbit, and the Master is his chief antagonist. It also shows an echo with the Rohan problem of buerocrats taking over from the Kinglore and the problems therein, which (while undemocratic) is a recurring theme in LotR.
Cool. I appreciate your input.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The Galadriel/Kili arc explains why Kili, Fili, and the others aren't with the rest at lonely mountain, and why they're still at Laketown when Smaug comes.
Meh. I think there are so many dwarves, no one is going to notice a few missing in the scenes that are kept.
Thorin should still totally bite it, though.
I would imagine they'd notice Kili, if only because he sticks out like a sore thumb, appearance wise, from the rest.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
The Galadriel/Kili arc explains why Kili, Fili, and the others aren't with the rest at lonely mountain, and why they're still at Laketown when Smaug comes.
Meh. I think there are so many dwarves, no one is going to notice a few missing in the scenes that are kept.
Thorin should still totally bite it, though.
I would imagine they'd notice Kili, if only because he sticks out like a sore thumb, appearance wise, from the rest.
Well, consider this: after they get the hidden door open, if you cut the forge sequence it's pretty much Bilbo all the way until Smaug breaks out and heads for Laketown, so even if the four missing dwarves were there you'd only have just a few moments to account for them. Then you can cut later to all the dwarves back at Erebor the next day, so I think it will probably work out.
Thorin's story, especially as presented in film 3, is pretty close to Boromir's in Fellowship. Other than Bilbo, he's pretty much the only one who has a character arc worth speaking of, so I honestly don't see what losing his death would do,other than leave that character arc incomplete.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Thorin's story, especially as presented in film 3, is pretty close to Boromir's in Fellowship. Other than Bilbo, he's pretty much the only one who has a character arc worth speaking of, so I honestly don't see what losing his death would do,other than leave that character arc incomplete.
I'm not sure that Thorin has to die for that arc to close, considering it closed (running time-wise) a good bit before his death. Boromir's redemption came from his death; he died protecting the Fellowship mere moments after having his moment of weakness. Thorin found redemption in overcoming his family's Dragon Sickness curse, and that matter is settled regardless of whether Thorin lives or dies.
IMO, anyway
I also see a lot of parallels between Thorin and Aragorn in terms of how both are reluctant to accept their title due to anxieties over familial failings. Thorin doesn't shy away from being king like Aragorn did, but Thorin's main motivation isn't becoming king, it's reclaiming his people's home and ridding it of evil. In that, he and Aragorn are very similar in aim. Both men face a moment of weakness and temptation, both men come through it reborn in purpose.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
I don't really see it that way. Thorin is all about getting back what is his. It's a story of greed and pride and glory. Aragron is a tale of redemption for the failings of his forebearers. Thorin's grand-pappy isn't a great guy, but his goal and challenge is never to overcome that fate. In fact, everyone in the party is expecting him to become a hoarding dwarf king (just not to the crazy extent he goes to) which is why none of the dwarven nations are willing to help him do it unless he can prove he has the Simaril (Arkenstone) which would plausibly mean he has taken out the dragon.
Thorin's death, and his cursing of pride and gold at the cost of so many of his loyal kin, is what gives him redemption for the actions he himself takes in the story. Aragron is a perfect hero guy from day one and never wavers, redeeming the actions of others and meeting the expectations of everyone around him. He is a super hero in the story. The only question for him is if he will live through it. Thorin is a right bastard throughout the story and the dwarves all love him for it. Only at the end does he himself regret it, along with those few dwarves that survive to see the peace that follows.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I don't really see it that way. Thorin is all about getting back what is his. It's a story of greed and pride and glory. Aragron is a tale of redemption for the failings of his forebearers. Thorin's grand-pappy isn't a great guy, but his goal and challenge is never to overcome that fate. In fact, everyone in the party is expecting him to become a hoarding dwarf king (just not to the crazy extent he goes to) which is why none of the dwarven nations are willing to help him do it unless he can prove he has the Simaril (Arkenstone) which would plausibly mean he has taken out the dragon.
Thorin's death, and his cursing of pride and gold at the cost of so many of his loyal kin, is what gives him redemption for the actions he himself takes in the story. Aragron is a perfect hero guy from day one and never wavers, redeeming the actions of others and meeting the expectations of everyone around him. He is a super hero in the story. The only question for him is if he will live through it. Thorin is a right bastard throughout the story and the dwarves all love him for it. Only at the end does he himself regret it, along with those few dwarves that survive to see the peace that follows.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I don't think the tone of the film agrees with your perspective. I mean, I do, I agree; Thorin was kind of a surly dick. However, it's obvious he's very worried about falling into the same trap his grandfather did, and then all the other dwarves later call him out for being a greedy jerk.
I mean, put it this way, Balin, Dwalin, Kili, Fili, and Bofur, all the major dwarf characters, all have moments where they go, "Hey, you're being a dick." As well, there's plenty of evidence within the film that Thorin is very leery about the hold his family's fortune might have over him. Until the end when he goes kinda nuts, Thorin's quest is explicitly for retaking his home, not reclaiming a fortune.
Incidentally, I really didn't like how this Dragon Sickness is presented in the movie. It looks like this almost mystical thing, a condition that clouds the mind and makes the afflicted do unusual things. But if you can just break through it, you'll be right as rain! Back to your old self!
Man, no.
He's just greedy.
Hes' just very, very greedy.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Okay, so I finished the first pass looking at prospective edits for AUJ:EE, and it ended up looking like this:
Gross running time: 2:52:19
Total cuts: 0:47:13
Net running time: 2:05:04
It's not as short as I thought it would be, but AUJ is the longest of the three movies, IIRC. This is just a first pass, but I'll give DoS and BATFA a comb-through before I start on any further whittling. I think there's going to be a lot cut from DoS, so hopefully that will help bring this beast into a more manageable length.
Okay, so I finished the first pass looking at prospective edits for AUJ:EE, and it ended up looking like this:
Gross running time: 2:52:19
Total cuts: 0:47:13
Net running time: 2:05:04
It's not as short as I thought it would be, but AUJ is the longest of the three movies, IIRC. This is just a first pass, but I'll give DoS and BATFA a comb-through before I start on any further whittling. I think there's going to be a lot cut from DoS, so hopefully that will help bring this beast into a more manageable length.
It'll be the Desolation of Run-Time, methinks.
The "lost in the forest" bit at the beginning goes on forever before the spider attack. Gotta keep Hobbit Ring Rage, though. That's the best part.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Okay, so I finished the first pass looking at prospective edits for AUJ:EE, and it ended up looking like this:
Gross running time: 2:52:19
Total cuts: 0:47:13
Net running time: 2:05:04
It's not as short as I thought it would be, but AUJ is the longest of the three movies, IIRC. This is just a first pass, but I'll give DoS and BATFA a comb-through before I start on any further whittling. I think there's going to be a lot cut from DoS, so hopefully that will help bring this beast into a more manageable length.
It'll be the Desolation of Run-Time, methinks.
The "lost in the forest" bit at the beginning goes on forever before the spider attack. Gotta keep Hobbit Ring Rage, though. That's the best part.
Just off the top of my head, I know I'm losing a lot of azog, all of beorn, some of the elves, legolas, tauriel, bard, the master, and Smaug.
Okay, friends, having now procured my digital copy of all the EEs, I'm ready to start working on my master edit, but I would like some feedback from all of you.
The purpose of this edit is to pare this bloated filmapalooza into a single work of manageable length while also making it a critical part of the Lord of the Rings films that follow. I want this to be, in some ways, Lord of the Rings, Year Zero. Much like Jackson in his films, aiming for Tolkien purity is not the ultimate goal, and some things must be excised in the name of expediency, momentum, and narrative coherence.
And with that said, this is where I'm at right now:
- Bilbo is the central character in this film, but a huge problem is that he doesn't have much to do, and the story happens around him, not really to him or because of him. The key narrative thrusts are with Thorin's quest to reclaim Erebor and with Galdalf's investigation into Dol Guldur. Bilbo gets some fine moments with Balin annd Bofur, and anything in the EEs that expand those relationships need to be pushed to the forefront.
- However, there are lots of narrative alleyways that are neither satisfying nor largely important to the events in LOTR. While some instances of the characters involved may remain, these plots will be removed:
- Kili/Tauriel/Legolas love triangle? Gone.
- Bard's kids? Gone.
- The Master of Laketown and Alfrid? Almost definitely gone.
- Radagast? Probably very trimmed down.
- Bad attempts at comedy? Out.
- The battle with Smaug in the forges of Erebor? See ya.
- Barrel escape? More like "pleasant barrel drift completely without drama."
- The day-time orc chase near Rivendell? Goodbye.
- Frodo in the bookends? Adios, precious
- Goblin Town? Barely.
- Stone Giants? Noooope.
- As well, a lot of the flashbacks to the battle at the gates of Moria might be excised for story reasons, mostly to streamline things.
- Okay, so this is the big one, and the one I'm wanting the most feedback on: I'm thinking about keeping Thorin alive. I think there's a way to edit the ending of the movie so he doesn't die after the battle with Azog, and using footage from the prelude in AUJ, give an uplifting ending to make it seem like Thorin is coronated as king. His death in the film is such a moment of anticlimax, and Kili and Fili's death only exacerbates the futility of it all, I feel.
- I'm considering paring down, removing, or otherwise recontextualizing the denouement with Bilbo coming back to his home being ransacked. It seems so extraneous and kills the tone, I want to find a way to make this a lot smoother.
- I'm also going to attempt some technical changes, though I may need some help for that from people more familiar with Final Cut/After Effects and whatnot. If possible, I would like to add a slight blue glowing effect to at least Orcrist (like with Sting, though maybe to a lesser degree), as they were both made by the elven smiths of Gondolin. I'd like Glamdring to do the same, but that would cause a continuity error with the rest of the LOTR trilogy, and since Glamdring is stylistically different enough from the other two it seems like leaving that one be is a reasonable choice. Like I said, I'm not striving for absolute Tolkien purism.
- Also, I'd like to de-saturate the color-timing a little to bring it more in line with the palette of the other LOTR films.
So yeah, this is where I'm at right now. There may be more changes to come, and maybe I'll change my mind on other things after the fact, who knows? But I'm eager to get to work! Comments, questions, and arguments are most welcome.
-All elven blade's glow blue Full stop no takebacks!(Orcrist certainly should glow blue and I'm just stubborn about Glamdring because Glamdring is boss as hell)
-I'd go light on the de-saturation. It is meant to be a brighter story, but a little de-saturation towards the end as shit is getting real is a good add.
-Thorin's death is kinda important, unfortunatly. Maybe a cut that emphasizes his eventual trust/corruption/fall/redemption with Bilbo, maybe? The fight isn't important, but his death and overall returning to be a good dwarf, is. It'll be hard though, because the original cut is so oppresive. It's really meant to be a heroic conclusion to his arc. Maybe cut everything from them going into the cliff's after they decide to go? While including Thorin's final moment with Bilbo?
-Keep the Kids introduction, of course, since it ties in with Smaug's death. Everything else though is so easily excised, it's not even funny.
-Stone Giant's are kind of important since that leads to the discovery of Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting, the later which does have a decent story significance in LoTR. Also, everyone wants loot. But that scene could be cut down to the bare bones pretty easily I think.
-IF YOU REMOVE THE BEATER/BASHER REACTION SCENE TO GLAMDRING/ORCRIST IN GOBLIN TOWN I WILL BE CROSS THAT WAS LITERALLY THE ONLY SCENE I MARKED OUT AT IN THERE.
In conclusion please make Glamdring/Orcrist the main character's please. Cut all dialog and scenes not relating to Glamdring/Orcrist/Sting.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
I think you are mistaking the Trolls for the Stone Giants. The Stone Giants were in the book, but are so out-of-place in the later world's mythos that they aught to be cut.
I think you are mistaking the Trolls for the Stone Giants. The Stone Giants were in the book, but are so out-of-place in the later world's mythos that they aught to be cut.
I am indeed mistaken I completely forgot about the random death lazer mountain fight.
That super needed to go.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Okay, so I finished the first pass looking at prospective edits for AUJ:EE, and it ended up looking like this:
Gross running time: 2:52:19
Total cuts: 0:47:13
Net running time: 2:05:04
It's not as short as I thought it would be, but AUJ is the longest of the three movies, IIRC. This is just a first pass, but I'll give DoS and BATFA a comb-through before I start on any further whittling. I think there's going to be a lot cut from DoS, so hopefully that will help bring this beast into a more manageable length.
It'll be the Desolation of Run-Time, methinks.
The "lost in the forest" bit at the beginning goes on forever before the spider attack. Gotta keep Hobbit Ring Rage, though. That's the best part.
Just off the top of my head, I know I'm losing a lot of azog, all of beorn, some of the elves, legolas, tauriel, bard, the master, and Smaug.
That seems like that should be a lot.
Wait, you are dropping Smaug? Or just the Rube Goldberg fight with the dwarves?
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Okay, so I finished the first pass looking at prospective edits for AUJ:EE, and it ended up looking like this:
Gross running time: 2:52:19
Total cuts: 0:47:13
Net running time: 2:05:04
It's not as short as I thought it would be, but AUJ is the longest of the three movies, IIRC. This is just a first pass, but I'll give DoS and BATFA a comb-through before I start on any further whittling. I think there's going to be a lot cut from DoS, so hopefully that will help bring this beast into a more manageable length.
It'll be the Desolation of Run-Time, methinks.
The "lost in the forest" bit at the beginning goes on forever before the spider attack. Gotta keep Hobbit Ring Rage, though. That's the best part.
Just off the top of my head, I know I'm losing a lot of azog, all of beorn, some of the elves, legolas, tauriel, bard, the master, and Smaug.
That seems like that should be a lot.
Wait, you are dropping Smaug? Or just the Rube Goldberg fight with the dwarves?
Yeah, just the forge scene that goes on forever and doesn't actually accomplish anything.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Okay, I had a minute today, so I was able to take a first pass at DoS:EE today as well, and here's the tally:
Gross running time: 2:55:59
Total cuts: 1:13:27
Net running time: 1:42:32
My AUJ cut was 2:05:04, so these two now combine for 3:48:36. That's putting me waaaaaay behind where I want to be, considering BOTFA:EE runs 2:30:55 before the cuts.
However, the bright side is that before getting into the fine tuning, I've trimmed a 5h48min collection of footage by two hours, so hopefully I'll have some room to fiddle around a little more. We'll see, of course, but first comes the first pass on Five Armies. Tonight? Maybe, we'll see. I'm still an hour shy of the ROTK:EE length, so that's heartening.
You can cut like, the entire battle so that is 3 hours right there
I am actually giving considerable thought to trimming much of Thorin's dickish turn after he sets up in Erebor, though keeping enough in for narrative thrust. That middle section dawdles so much before we get to the parts that everyone knows is coming, I'd like to streamline that a whole lot. Hopefully by jettisoning Alfrid, Legolas, Tauriel, and Bolg, that will cut a huge swath out of it. Then the actual battle should slim up, too, as I'm cutting as much as I can between Thranduil getting there and Dain's army showing up. I want to remove as much weird moral vagary as possible. Thorin's a dick, Thranduil's a dick, Dain is a dick, so the sooner we can get them all fighting on the same side the better.
You can cut like, the entire battle so that is 3 hours right there
I am actually giving considerable thought to trimming much of Thorin's dickish turn after he sets up in Erebor, though keeping enough in for narrative thrust. That middle section dawdles so much before we get to the parts that everyone knows is coming, I'd like to streamline that a whole lot. Hopefully by jettisoning Alfrid, Legolas, Tauriel, and Bolg, that will cut a huge swath out of it. Then the actual battle should slim up, too, as I'm cutting as much as I can between Thranduil getting there and Dain's army showing up. I want to remove as much weird moral vagary as possible. Thorin's a dick, Thranduil's a dick, Dain is a dick, so the sooner we can get them all fighting on the same side the better.
I loathed the entire scene in the room with the molten gold Smaug-trap where he went nuts. Dude there's a battle going on, get your shit together.
I really liked that set, though, just a solidified pool of gold.
The thing about Thorin's crazy, is that they made the Arkenstone a direct parallel to the One Ring. A LotR audience doesn't really need any further explanation or set-up than that.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Okay, got the BOTFA:EE done
Gross running time: 2:30:54
Total cuts: 50:53
Net running time: 1:40:01
This brings the project to a current length of 5:28:37. Definitely much longer than I want, and now I gotta really dig into this thing. There's a little bit more fat I could trim from the last battle and a few other bits, but I don't think it's more than 10 minutes or so over all three films unless major cuts happen. To get it in the 4-hour range, you're talking about removing whole plotlines entirely, so that I need to think about a good bit, because I'm kinda happy with what I have left.
Gross running time: 2:30:54
Total cuts: 50:53
Net running time: 1:40:01
This brings the project to a current length of 5:28:37. Definitely much longer than I want, and now I gotta really dig into this thing. There's a little bit more fat I could trim from the last battle and a few other bits, but I don't think it's more than 10 minutes or so over all three films unless major cuts happen. To get it in the 4-hour range, you're talking about removing whole plotlines entirely, so that I need to think about a good bit, because I'm kinda happy with what I have left.
I'll sleep on it for now.
Maybe do it as a 2 parter. An Unexpected Journey makes for a good first title and call the second one There And Back Again.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Gross running time: 2:30:54
Total cuts: 50:53
Net running time: 1:40:01
This brings the project to a current length of 5:28:37. Definitely much longer than I want, and now I gotta really dig into this thing. There's a little bit more fat I could trim from the last battle and a few other bits, but I don't think it's more than 10 minutes or so over all three films unless major cuts happen. To get it in the 4-hour range, you're talking about removing whole plotlines entirely, so that I need to think about a good bit, because I'm kinda happy with what I have left.
I'll sleep on it for now.
Maybe do it as a 2 parter. An Unexpected Journey makes for a good first title and call the second one There And Back Again.
If it comes to that, I'll consider it. But I really don't think the events of The Hobbit are important enough to have a film longer than any of the LOTR films. I need to cut 50 mins out of it to bring it in less than the ROTK:EE.
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No, it's not.
As I've already said, the only important canon for this project is the LOTR movies.
Whether Thorin lives or dies, or whether Dain becomes king or not, is totally and utterly irrelevant to the LOTR films that follow.
Have fun with it but it seems like a hatchet job project rather than something to actually improve the films to me.
Though I haven't seen the EE yet so I don't know if there is a way to make an off screen death flow well.
There was an importance to the restoration of the mountain addressed in the books (ironically in cut-content from when everyone was hanging out in Minas Tirith after the war, later published in Unfinished Tales), stating that the restoration of Erebor and Dale tilted the balance of power in the North back towards the good guys, and that Sauron would have used Smaug to burn everything from Mirkwood to Rivendell.
Maybe? It doesn't sound very cinematic, though.
Maybe you can give an argument why keeping Thorin dead is a better cinematic and/or narrative choice?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'd like to hear your opinion.
Yeah, and Gandalf makes that argument to Thranduil in BOTFA, so that's definitely staying in. It's a huge tie to the other LOTR movies.
The Galadriel/Kili arc explains why Kili, Fili, and the others aren't with the rest at lonely mountain, and why they're still at Laketown when Smaug comes.
The whole arc of Thorin and Bilbo's relationship is a matter of pride versus reason. Throughout the books Bilbo always errs on the side of reasonable action while Thorin takes the prideful action to appease his sense of honor. Over the course of the books, Thorin's actions push Bilbo to take risks and Bilbo (somewhat) tempers Thorin to try a more reasonable solution to their problems. Thorin's entire death shows the end moral of the entire narrative of the Hobbit.
"Child of the kindly West, I have come to know, if more of us valued your ways - food and cheer above hoarded gold - it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."
Then he dies, and with him dies his line of proud kings. Only leaving the toymakers and veterans and cooks and commonfolk that followed him to build the nation and home that he envisioned and lost the way of over the course of the book. Bilbo learned that without risk the world is a sad and small place, but with too much pride the world falls into ruin and unnecessary war.
Now, admittedly, I still think the Arthur Rankin Hobbit cartoon tells the story better in many ways than Peter Jackson's vision (mostly because it's pretty true to the source material), but I also think a lot of what you are cutting provides a lot of value beyond the immediate narrative. Lake Town provides yet another glimpse into a wider human world and shows not only the Kinglore mythos that Aragorn will later also show, but provides a very different set of humanity and values than we see in Rohan or Gondor. While the battle inside the Lonely Mountain was waaaaaay too long, a shorter version does show the industry and value of the dwarves beyond making giant caves. You see what they can do when they set their minds to it and in many ways it explains Saroman's later apparent jump in technology in the later books (Jackson's Hobbit shows many folk have these tools, just most that do have been in decline).
The Tauriel love story I agree with cutting, though the Azog arc is something I think was a positive addition to the story, especially with Sauron being a larger figure in the Hobbit in Jackson. His hunting of Thorin not only ties in with the fall of Moria later on but also with the reason the region Sauron would strike at Lonely Mountain and Dale first (to finance and gain the tools and industry of the Lonely Mountain). Bard's kids, while not really important, do make for some suspense during the Battle of Five Armies. Depending on how much is cut they could be kept or left.
Stephen Fry was a great Master and I think he added to the intention of Tolkien's story. Bard is a major character both in the Kinglore mythos as well as in the events of the Hobbit, and the Master is his chief antagonist. It also shows an echo with the Rohan problem of buerocrats taking over from the Kinglore and the problems therein, which (while undemocratic) is a recurring theme in LotR.
Maybe it didn't actually happen like that! But, really, I entirely see Bilbo telling the story that it did.
Thorin should still totally bite it, though.
And re: the Master: Movie Master is a terrible caricature of Book Master, but I think Stephen Fry plays Movie Master perfectly (i.e, giving Jackson exactly what he wanted). I'd still cut as much of him as possible, other than possibly him greeting Thorin & co in Laketown.
I mean, I don't know if I should advocate for a scene just because it made me laugh, but holy shit did Bombur in that barrel make me laugh harder than I have during a movie in a long time.
Yeah, I've already seen some edits elsewhere that successfully get around this. Especially by removing the foundry chase with Smaug, you don't really notice the lack of Kili, Fili, Bombur, and Oin. I may look at digitally reinserting them on some longer shots just for numerical continuity, but I'm fairly confident this works.
Cool. I appreciate your input.
I would imagine they'd notice Kili, if only because he sticks out like a sore thumb, appearance wise, from the rest.
Well, consider this: after they get the hidden door open, if you cut the forge sequence it's pretty much Bilbo all the way until Smaug breaks out and heads for Laketown, so even if the four missing dwarves were there you'd only have just a few moments to account for them. Then you can cut later to all the dwarves back at Erebor the next day, so I think it will probably work out.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I'm not sure that Thorin has to die for that arc to close, considering it closed (running time-wise) a good bit before his death. Boromir's redemption came from his death; he died protecting the Fellowship mere moments after having his moment of weakness. Thorin found redemption in overcoming his family's Dragon Sickness curse, and that matter is settled regardless of whether Thorin lives or dies.
IMO, anyway
I also see a lot of parallels between Thorin and Aragorn in terms of how both are reluctant to accept their title due to anxieties over familial failings. Thorin doesn't shy away from being king like Aragorn did, but Thorin's main motivation isn't becoming king, it's reclaiming his people's home and ridding it of evil. In that, he and Aragorn are very similar in aim. Both men face a moment of weakness and temptation, both men come through it reborn in purpose.
Thorin's death, and his cursing of pride and gold at the cost of so many of his loyal kin, is what gives him redemption for the actions he himself takes in the story. Aragron is a perfect hero guy from day one and never wavers, redeeming the actions of others and meeting the expectations of everyone around him. He is a super hero in the story. The only question for him is if he will live through it. Thorin is a right bastard throughout the story and the dwarves all love him for it. Only at the end does he himself regret it, along with those few dwarves that survive to see the peace that follows.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I don't think the tone of the film agrees with your perspective. I mean, I do, I agree; Thorin was kind of a surly dick. However, it's obvious he's very worried about falling into the same trap his grandfather did, and then all the other dwarves later call him out for being a greedy jerk.
I mean, put it this way, Balin, Dwalin, Kili, Fili, and Bofur, all the major dwarf characters, all have moments where they go, "Hey, you're being a dick." As well, there's plenty of evidence within the film that Thorin is very leery about the hold his family's fortune might have over him. Until the end when he goes kinda nuts, Thorin's quest is explicitly for retaking his home, not reclaiming a fortune.
Man, no.
He's just greedy.
Hes' just very, very greedy.
It's not as short as I thought it would be, but AUJ is the longest of the three movies, IIRC. This is just a first pass, but I'll give DoS and BATFA a comb-through before I start on any further whittling. I think there's going to be a lot cut from DoS, so hopefully that will help bring this beast into a more manageable length.
It'll be the Desolation of Run-Time, methinks.
The "lost in the forest" bit at the beginning goes on forever before the spider attack. Gotta keep Hobbit Ring Rage, though. That's the best part.
Just off the top of my head, I know I'm losing a lot of azog, all of beorn, some of the elves, legolas, tauriel, bard, the master, and Smaug.
That seems like that should be a lot.
-All elven blade's glow blue Full stop no takebacks!(Orcrist certainly should glow blue and I'm just stubborn about Glamdring because Glamdring is boss as hell)
-I'd go light on the de-saturation. It is meant to be a brighter story, but a little de-saturation towards the end as shit is getting real is a good add.
-Thorin's death is kinda important, unfortunatly. Maybe a cut that emphasizes his eventual trust/corruption/fall/redemption with Bilbo, maybe? The fight isn't important, but his death and overall returning to be a good dwarf, is. It'll be hard though, because the original cut is so oppresive. It's really meant to be a heroic conclusion to his arc. Maybe cut everything from them going into the cliff's after they decide to go? While including Thorin's final moment with Bilbo?
-Keep the Kids introduction, of course, since it ties in with Smaug's death. Everything else though is so easily excised, it's not even funny.
-Stone Giant's are kind of important since that leads to the discovery of Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting, the later which does have a decent story significance in LoTR. Also, everyone wants loot. But that scene could be cut down to the bare bones pretty easily I think.
-IF YOU REMOVE THE BEATER/BASHER REACTION SCENE TO GLAMDRING/ORCRIST IN GOBLIN TOWN I WILL BE CROSS THAT WAS LITERALLY THE ONLY SCENE I MARKED OUT AT IN THERE.
In conclusion please make Glamdring/Orcrist the main character's please. Cut all dialog and scenes not relating to Glamdring/Orcrist/Sting.
I am indeed mistaken I completely forgot about the random death lazer mountain fight.
That super needed to go.
I'm pretty sure you're confusing the mountain trolls and the stone giants.
Also, as I said earlier, giving Glamdring a glow causes a major continuity error with FOTR.
Yeah, ENC corrected me.
Also, obviously you need to make a supercut of FoTR to make Glamdring glow blue.
And get Ian Mckellen and Elijah Wood to record correct lines.
And correct the Fellowships reactions.
Actually if you could just re-film the beginning of FoTR that would be super.
Wait, you are dropping Smaug? Or just the Rube Goldberg fight with the dwarves?
Yeah, just the forge scene that goes on forever and doesn't actually accomplish anything.
My AUJ cut was 2:05:04, so these two now combine for 3:48:36. That's putting me waaaaaay behind where I want to be, considering BOTFA:EE runs 2:30:55 before the cuts.
However, the bright side is that before getting into the fine tuning, I've trimmed a 5h48min collection of footage by two hours, so hopefully I'll have some room to fiddle around a little more. We'll see, of course, but first comes the first pass on Five Armies. Tonight? Maybe, we'll see. I'm still an hour shy of the ROTK:EE length, so that's heartening.
I am actually giving considerable thought to trimming much of Thorin's dickish turn after he sets up in Erebor, though keeping enough in for narrative thrust. That middle section dawdles so much before we get to the parts that everyone knows is coming, I'd like to streamline that a whole lot. Hopefully by jettisoning Alfrid, Legolas, Tauriel, and Bolg, that will cut a huge swath out of it. Then the actual battle should slim up, too, as I'm cutting as much as I can between Thranduil getting there and Dain's army showing up. I want to remove as much weird moral vagary as possible. Thorin's a dick, Thranduil's a dick, Dain is a dick, so the sooner we can get them all fighting on the same side the better.
I loathed the entire scene in the room with the molten gold Smaug-trap where he went nuts. Dude there's a battle going on, get your shit together.
I really liked that set, though, just a solidified pool of gold.
The thing about Thorin's crazy, is that they made the Arkenstone a direct parallel to the One Ring. A LotR audience doesn't really need any further explanation or set-up than that.
This brings the project to a current length of 5:28:37. Definitely much longer than I want, and now I gotta really dig into this thing. There's a little bit more fat I could trim from the last battle and a few other bits, but I don't think it's more than 10 minutes or so over all three films unless major cuts happen. To get it in the 4-hour range, you're talking about removing whole plotlines entirely, so that I need to think about a good bit, because I'm kinda happy with what I have left.
I'll sleep on it for now.
Maybe do it as a 2 parter. An Unexpected Journey makes for a good first title and call the second one There And Back Again.
If it comes to that, I'll consider it. But I really don't think the events of The Hobbit are important enough to have a film longer than any of the LOTR films. I need to cut 50 mins out of it to bring it in less than the ROTK:EE.