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Starcraft 2: Lobbying like damn!

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Posts

  • EtheaEthea Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Movitz wrote: »
    You might have a local maximum that the program never gets out of, depending on the coding. The actual global maxima might be elsewhere.

    If you write a GA and don't develop some form of anti-stagnation or mutation you just wrote a very bad algorithm.

    Ethea on
  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    The OP should change the thread title to: SlayerSBoxeR vs. NaDa tomorrow at 7:00 AM EST give or take.

    Actually, don't. Y'all will just crash the Internet and screw the rest of us over from watching the best TvT ever.

    Chen on
    V0Gug2h.png
  • SaarutoSaaruto Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Monoxide wrote: »
    if anyone wants to talk about strategies that don't involve rushing roaches, I've been looking for some Protoss strats that differ a bit from the usual

    *snip*

    is there anything that feels a little more solid and less contingent on squeezing out that colossus in the early game? how is kcdc's PvT FE working in this post patch world? does a PvP 2gate/stargate carrier build actually work or is it just a pipedream strat that wins against shitty players who push late and don't know how to build sentries and stalkers?

    I don't know if you check out the streams much, but there was this guy named Tozar who said pretty much exactly the same thing you said. Just as another alternative for you, he would do a lot of blink stalker play with DTs thrown in, usually trying to make his game very dependent on micro. I don't know how "solid" it will be, but it's definitely a change. I don't think he really streams regularly anymore, but I think he's got some stuff on teamliquid.net still.

    Saaruto on
    If you can chill, chill.
    Steam ID
  • KamiKami Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Is b.net fully operational yet?

    I feel today is the day I just suck it up and blitz through some ladder matches and finally get a solid foundation on my fundamentals.

    Kami on
  • EggPuppetEggPuppet Registered User
    edited November 2010
    Monoxide wrote: »
    if anyone wants to talk about strategies that don't involve rushing roaches, I've been looking for some Protoss strats that differ a bit from the usual

    basically I hate 2gate/robo and I want it to die, but I don't know of many great alternatives in PvT or PvP.

    I know what other strategies can work, but it seems like starting out PvP with a 4gate or 3gate/exp will just be stomped by the other player's colossus build, and since most PvP is essentially a colossi arms race anyway, doing something like an FE delays the robo and colossi production to the point where you're going to be at a disadvantage.

    I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and these are just perceptions born out of shitty play by myself and my opponents, but I've felt like doing anything but 2gate/robo in PvP or PvT means putting myself at a significant risk compared to just using that builds.

    is there anything that feels a little more solid and less contingent on squeezing out that colossus in the early game? how is kcdc's PvT FE working in this post patch world? does a PvP 2gate/stargate carrier build actually work or is it just a pipedream strat that wins against shitty players who push late and don't know how to build sentries and stalkers?

    I have had excellent results with archon builds in PvT

    I have yet to see a really appealing nonstandard PvP build though

    EggPuppet on
  • MaratastikMaratastik Just call me Mara, please! Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Monoxide wrote: »
    if anyone wants to talk about strategies that don't involve rushing roaches, I've been looking for some Protoss strats that differ a bit from the usual

    basically I hate 2gate/robo and I want it to die, but I don't know of many great alternatives in PvT or PvP.

    I know what other strategies can work, but it seems like starting out PvP with a 4gate or 3gate/exp will just be stomped by the other player's colossus build, and since most PvP is essentially a colossi arms race anyway, doing something like an FE delays the robo and colossi production to the point where you're going to be at a disadvantage.

    I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and these are just perceptions born out of shitty play by myself and my opponents, but I've felt like doing anything but 2gate/robo in PvP or PvT means putting myself at a significant risk compared to just using that builds.

    is there anything that feels a little more solid and less contingent on squeezing out that colossus in the early game? how is kcdc's PvT FE working in this post patch world? does a PvP 2gate/stargate carrier build actually work or is it just a pipedream strat that wins against shitty players who push late and don't know how to build sentries and stalkers?

    In PvT, 3 gate into expo with a late second gas is my bread and butter build. Real safe for holding off early aggression, pretty quick expansion and it allows you to take a third real quick depending on how the game goes. I usually follow up the expo with a robo which I drop before the expo completes. Then I add a fourth gate, then I start teching to templar. I almost always skip colossus. Robo is just for obs. or an immortal if I need it. I use to 1 gate robo for quick colossus, but honestly I prefer the 3 gate expo a lot more.

    This is how my build order has evolved up to this point...

    9 pylon
    Chrono probes 11 and 12
    13 gate
    Chrono probes 14 and 15
    15 gas
    16 pylon
    Chrono probes 16 and 17
    Cyber Core as soon as gate finishes
    18 probe
    20 zealot - the zealot will finish right before the cyber core finishes if your timing is right
    Chrono probe 21 and 22
    As soon as cyber core finishes start a stalker, warpgate research + chrono and a probe for 25 food
    25 Pylon
    26 Probe
    Spend chronos on warpgates until finished - I think it should be three
    Drop two more gates right before stalker finishes, start a sentry once stalker is out, keep making probes
    30 Pylon and second gas
    Pylon, warpgate research and second and third warpgates all finish at the same time - you should have enough money for a stalker, sentry, zealot, another pylon and an expansion by the time you send a probe down.

    I've actually had a lot more fun with PvP lately. I go 1 gate -> 1 stargate -> 2nd gate -> expand -> robo. The general idea is to get two voidrays out with a few zealots and a couple of sentries then expand. Once the expansion is up and running, get a robo and pump voidrays and immortals with zealots and sentries. You should make some stalkers. This composition will roll the standard mass colossus strategy. The biggest risk is a strong push with stalkers early on. That's what the sentries are for. If he commits, use the sentries to block off the stalkers so only one or two can hit your voidrays at a time. This works surprisingly well. Your goal is to just hit the mid game and pump voidrays and immortals. It works pretty good. And it's fun.

    Maratastik on
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I generally 3 gate expo in PvP, but the key is to pressure as soon as your first wave of warpgate units pops in. That's a time when the enemy is usually pretty weak if they do anything but 4 gate, and if they 4 gate you can pull back and defend the expo usually.

    Lemming on
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited November 2010
    haha holy shit foxer

    jesus christ kid

    undeinPirat on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • KeamienKeamien Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Monoxide wrote: »
    if anyone wants to talk about strategies that don't involve rushing roaches, I've been looking for some Protoss strats that differ a bit from the usual

    basically I hate 2gate/robo and I want it to die, but I don't know of many great alternatives in PvT or PvP.

    I know what other strategies can work, but it seems like starting out PvP with a 4gate or 3gate/exp will just be stomped by the other player's colossus build, and since most PvP is essentially a colossi arms race anyway, doing something like an FE delays the robo and colossi production to the point where you're going to be at a disadvantage.

    I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and these are just perceptions born out of shitty play by myself and my opponents, but I've felt like doing anything but 2gate/robo in PvP or PvT means putting myself at a significant risk compared to just using that builds.

    is there anything that feels a little more solid and less contingent on squeezing out that colossus in the early game? how is kcdc's PvT FE working in this post patch world? does a PvP 2gate/stargate carrier build actually work or is it just a pipedream strat that wins against shitty players who push late and don't know how to build sentries and stalkers?

    I've had a lot of failure as terran when protoss rushes chargelot tech. Because Maruaders are just plain BAD against zealots. (It can be microed, but you'll force them to stim away their health)

    Keamien on
  • Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Movitz wrote: »
    You might have a local maximum that the program never gets out of, depending on the coding. The actual global maxima might be elsewhere.

    plus, im pretty sure that this is a NP-Hard problem set, so you have no idea if you've ever hit, "optimal maxima". You just know that this run was better than the last one, or not.

    Joe K on
  • MaratastikMaratastik Just call me Mara, please! Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Keamien wrote: »
    Monoxide wrote: »
    if anyone wants to talk about strategies that don't involve rushing roaches, I've been looking for some Protoss strats that differ a bit from the usual

    basically I hate 2gate/robo and I want it to die, but I don't know of many great alternatives in PvT or PvP.

    I know what other strategies can work, but it seems like starting out PvP with a 4gate or 3gate/exp will just be stomped by the other player's colossus build, and since most PvP is essentially a colossi arms race anyway, doing something like an FE delays the robo and colossi production to the point where you're going to be at a disadvantage.

    I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and these are just perceptions born out of shitty play by myself and my opponents, but I've felt like doing anything but 2gate/robo in PvP or PvT means putting myself at a significant risk compared to just using that builds.

    is there anything that feels a little more solid and less contingent on squeezing out that colossus in the early game? how is kcdc's PvT FE working in this post patch world? does a PvP 2gate/stargate carrier build actually work or is it just a pipedream strat that wins against shitty players who push late and don't know how to build sentries and stalkers?

    I've had a lot of failure as terran when protoss rushes chargelot tech. Because Maruaders are just plain BAD against zealots. (It can be microed, but you'll force them to stim away their health)

    Marauders are quite bad against zealots + FF. They are quite good against just zealots. The afore mentioned micro is quite easy and the stim damage doesn't matter if nothing is hitting them to kill them. That's why you need a good balance of zealots to tank and sentries + stalkers to actually hit, unless you can get in forcefields.

    Maratastik on
  • Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Monoxide wrote: »
    if anyone wants to talk about strategies that don't involve rushing roaches, I've been looking for some Protoss strats that differ a bit from the usual

    basically I hate 2gate/robo and I want it to die, but I don't know of many great alternatives in PvT or PvP.

    I know what other strategies can work, but it seems like starting out PvP with a 4gate or 3gate/exp will just be stomped by the other player's colossus build, and since most PvP is essentially a colossi arms race anyway, doing something like an FE delays the robo and colossi production to the point where you're going to be at a disadvantage.

    I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and these are just perceptions born out of shitty play by myself and my opponents, but I've felt like doing anything but 2gate/robo in PvP or PvT means putting myself at a significant risk compared to just using that builds.

    is there anything that feels a little more solid and less contingent on squeezing out that colossus in the early game? how is kcdc's PvT FE working in this post patch world? does a PvP 2gate/stargate carrier build actually work or is it just a pipedream strat that wins against shitty players who push late and don't know how to build sentries and stalkers?

    early stargate instead of robo works well against zerg - they're anti-air comes out so late, if at all.

    3 gates into templar is fairly popular as well...

    Joe K on
  • KeamienKeamien Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Olorin wrote: »
    Keamien wrote: »
    Monoxide wrote: »
    if anyone wants to talk about strategies that don't involve rushing roaches, I've been looking for some Protoss strats that differ a bit from the usual

    basically I hate 2gate/robo and I want it to die, but I don't know of many great alternatives in PvT or PvP.

    I know what other strategies can work, but it seems like starting out PvP with a 4gate or 3gate/exp will just be stomped by the other player's colossus build, and since most PvP is essentially a colossi arms race anyway, doing something like an FE delays the robo and colossi production to the point where you're going to be at a disadvantage.

    I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and these are just perceptions born out of shitty play by myself and my opponents, but I've felt like doing anything but 2gate/robo in PvP or PvT means putting myself at a significant risk compared to just using that builds.

    is there anything that feels a little more solid and less contingent on squeezing out that colossus in the early game? how is kcdc's PvT FE working in this post patch world? does a PvP 2gate/stargate carrier build actually work or is it just a pipedream strat that wins against shitty players who push late and don't know how to build sentries and stalkers?

    I've had a lot of failure as terran when protoss rushes chargelot tech. Because Maruaders are just plain BAD against zealots. (It can be microed, but you'll force them to stim away their health)

    Marauders are quite bad against zealots + FF. They are quite good against just zealots. The afore mentioned micro is quite easy and the stim damage doesn't matter if nothing is hitting them to kill them. That's why you need a good balance of zealots to tank and sentries + stalkers to actually hit, unless you can get in forcefields.

    True dat. My problem with it is that by the time I show up, BAM, chargelots in my face.

    Keamien on
  • MonoxideMonoxide Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    PvZ I'm fine with, Joe. It's my favorite matchup, I feel like there's a lot of variety there from both sides. It's fun to play since it's such a fluid matchup past the initial "stop his roaches/mutas" phase of things. I still hate mutalisks, but who doesn't.

    The input on the other matchups is helping though. I'll definitely be trying some new things tonight.

    Monoxide on
  • FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Zealots can't touch a well microed bioball, they are literally simply chaff to take damage while colossi/templar deal damage.

    Of course, at my level of play terrans aren't very good at stutter step micro, but that doesn't change the fact that once a terran becomes half decent zealots are pretty much a hp shield without charge, and get ~1-2 hits of before dying with charge.

    Perfect forcefields delays this a bit, but if you miss a single forcefield or misplace it by half a hex you die horribly.

    Frozenzen on
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    zvp gets exponentially harder as it goes on because zerg have no real good counter to stalker/colossi. ultras are too fat and broodlords are too slow, while roaches are just immortal bait. probably the best unit comp is just straight mutas with maybe some roaches.

    Jars on
  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Do you see a problem with roach/hydra/corruptor?

    kedinik on
  • Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Monoxide wrote: »
    PvZ I'm fine with, Joe. It's my favorite matchup, I feel like there's a lot of variety there from both sides. It's fun to play since it's such a fluid matchup past the initial "stop his roaches/mutas" phase of things. I still hate mutalisks, but who doesn't.

    The input on the other matchups is helping though. I'll definitely be trying some new things tonight.

    I've been trying kcdc's 1 gate FE, and I can reliably get the expansion down, but i can only hold it with the initial (chrono boosted) gate units, say, half the time. Usually, its just that I don't have enough of an army, or should have made 2 sentries instead of 2 stalkers, just for more FF, but holding that expansion has proven tough for me.

    Although, in PvT, you can get away with it more, as T often fast expands as well.

    Joe K on
  • YannYann Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Joe K wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    You might have a local maximum that the program never gets out of, depending on the coding. The actual global maxima might be elsewhere.

    plus, im pretty sure that this is a NP-Hard problem set, so you have no idea if you've ever hit, "optimal maxima". You just know that this run was better than the last one, or not.

    It runs multiple strains, and does have a stagnation limit.

    Yann on
  • YannYann Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    haha holy shit foxer

    jesus christ kid
    That look foxer had after the last game was the same look fruit had after his round of 8 win last season(Polt I think?). Would not be surprised if he takes it all.

    Yann on
  • Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Yann wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    You might have a local maximum that the program never gets out of, depending on the coding. The actual global maxima might be elsewhere.

    plus, im pretty sure that this is a NP-Hard problem set, so you have no idea if you've ever hit, "optimal maxima". You just know that this run was better than the last one, or not.

    It runs multiple strains, and does have a stagnation limit.

    is the whole thing open source? i thought i saw that it was. i might be able to be talked into making a Protoss-centric object or two... :-)

    Joe K on
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    kedinik wrote: »
    Do you see a problem with roach/hydra/corruptor?

    I see 200/200 of that losing to 200/200 of stalker sentry colossi

    Jars on
  • MonoxideMonoxide Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    Joe K wrote: »
    Monoxide wrote: »
    PvZ I'm fine with, Joe. It's my favorite matchup, I feel like there's a lot of variety there from both sides. It's fun to play since it's such a fluid matchup past the initial "stop his roaches/mutas" phase of things. I still hate mutalisks, but who doesn't.

    The input on the other matchups is helping though. I'll definitely be trying some new things tonight.

    I've been trying kcdc's 1 gate FE, and I can reliably get the expansion down, but i can only hold it with the initial (chrono boosted) gate units, say, half the time. Usually, its just that I don't have enough of an army, or should have made 2 sentries instead of 2 stalkers, just for more FF, but holding that expansion has proven tough for me.

    Although, in PvT, you can get away with it more, as T often fast expands as well.

    I don't think kcdc's 1gate really works in anything but PvT. In PvZ, a forge FE is preferred if you really want to FE, and in PvP i think you're opening yourself up to early gate pressure too easily.

    Monoxide on
  • FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Jars wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Do you see a problem with roach/hydra/corruptor?

    I see 200/200 of that losing to 200/200 of stalker sentry colossi

    then your army is 200/200 again after ~30 seconds, while the toss is still at 150.

    Frozenzen on
  • DangeriskDangerisk Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    That dirty Ukranian hacker Vasilisk is playing in some ICCup qualifier thing right now on their stream.

    Fuck that guy.

    Went 1-2 vs him in the finals of an ICCup tourney back in SC1.

    Dangerisk on
    If what you say is true, the Shaolin and the Wu-Tang could be DANGERISK.
  • VicktorVicktor Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Jars wrote: »
    zvp gets exponentially harder as it goes on because zerg have no real good counter to stalker/colossi. ultras are too fat and broodlords are too slow, while roaches are just immortal bait. probably the best unit comp is just straight mutas with maybe some roaches.
    If you're going mutas and know they're going colossus, are corruptors viable? Not a lot, just a few, like Terran getting viking for colossus.

    Corruption is still useful after the colossus are dead or retreating on high value units like the immortals.

    Vicktor on
    steam_sig.png
    Origin: Viycktor
  • SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    If they're full on colossus/stalker they shouldn't be that mobile, doom drop his bases!

    SkutSkut on
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    stalkers are incredibly mobile and can be warped in anywhere. the late game dps difference between colossi and whatever the zerg has out is really bad, and stalkers have no problems killing off corrupters/broodlords/ultras because of blink and their speed. basically it always comes down to colossi doing a hojillion damage and it's too difficult to continually rebuild while they take minimal losses. unless you have great positioning and a very strong econ lead it's an uphill battle.

    the easiest zvps are where they try to beat me on 2 bases. the hardest are where they macro really hard and build up a stalker+colossi army.

    Jars on
  • peacekeeperpeacekeeper AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Man that dreamhack lan day9 is going to cast at the end of the month is also byo chair not just pc? Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

    I want to be a progamer so i can fly around the world :(

    peacekeeper on
  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Goddammit. I come back from a mini-vacation and go 0-4. FUCK.

    rehtonAesoohC on
    Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Jars wrote: »
    stalkers are incredibly mobile and can be warped in anywhere. the late game dps difference between colossi and whatever the zerg has out is really bad, and stalkers have no problems killing off corrupters/broodlords/ultras because of blink and their speed. basically it always comes down to colossi doing a hojillion damage and it's too difficult to continually rebuild while they take minimal losses. unless you have great positioning and a very strong econ lead it's an uphill battle.

    the easiest zvps are where they try to beat me on 2 bases. the hardest are where they macro really hard and build up a stalker+colossi army.

    Infestors turns blink stalkers into expensive hydra spine sponges.

    p.s. - Anyone up for customs?

    kedinik on
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited November 2010
    man i dont know who to root for at dreamhack

    probs tlo or nony though

    they my boyyyyss

    undeinPirat on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    kedinik wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    stalkers are incredibly mobile and can be warped in anywhere. the late game dps difference between colossi and whatever the zerg has out is really bad, and stalkers have no problems killing off corrupters/broodlords/ultras because of blink and their speed. basically it always comes down to colossi doing a hojillion damage and it's too difficult to continually rebuild while they take minimal losses. unless you have great positioning and a very strong econ lead it's an uphill battle.

    the easiest zvps are where they try to beat me on 2 bases. the hardest are where they macro really hard and build up a stalker+colossi army.

    Infestors turns blink stalkers into expensive hydra spine sponges.

    p.s. - Anyone up for customs?

    except colossi kill hydras way faster than hydras kill stalkers. which is always going to end up being your problem in late game vs toss. colossi dps is magnitudes higher than any unit zerg fields, and there is no marauder to kill stalkers that defend them.

    Jars on
  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Yeah.

    The timings are hard and the micro's hard and my ZvP's probably my worst match up.

    Feel like the tools are there to do well if I can up my game, though.

    kedinik on
  • TrusTrus Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I have never had a problem going Roach/Hydra/Corruptor against a Stalker/Collossi Protoss. You just need to make sure you have a good number of roaches to soak damage while the hydra's wipe the stalkers and the corruptors kill the Collossus

    Trus on
    qFN53.png
  • CycloneRangerCycloneRanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Jars wrote: »
    stalkers are incredibly mobile and can be warped in anywhere. the late game dps difference between colossi and whatever the zerg has out is really bad, and stalkers have no problems killing off corrupters/broodlords/ultras because of blink and their speed. basically it always comes down to colossi doing a hojillion damage and it's too difficult to continually rebuild while they take minimal losses. unless you have great positioning and a very strong econ lead it's an uphill battle.

    the easiest zvps are where they try to beat me on 2 bases. the hardest are where they macro really hard and build up a stalker+colossi army.
    Use the fungal, Luke.

    CycloneRanger on
  • peacekeeperpeacekeeper AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    MLG Dallas player lineup released


    A few well known overseas players coming including Idra, Sen, and TLO.


    Starts this Friday 5th to the 7th

    peacekeeper on
  • NylonathetepNylonathetep Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    TheStig wrote: »
    No great players?
    Excuse me? Excuse me?

    I'm sorry.. I totally forgot about Dead Men Rise... DMR is so underrated but He's pretty good.

    Nylonathetep on
    714353-1.png
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Anyone wanna play a couple custom 1v1s. i wanna practice not on ladder. 1100 diamond zerg player
    mastman.851

    mastman on
    ByalIX8.png
    B.net: Kusanku
  • MaratastikMaratastik Just call me Mara, please! Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Hahahaha, I just ran into my first GSL copycat.

    PvT on steppes of war. I three gate expanded. As my expansion was going up I moved all my forces to the top of the lower ramp. As I scout with a probe at his natural, I see him moving out with marines and scv's and I think, uh oh marine all in. Then I notice an scv sitting at the bottom of the ramp and think, hmm...he's gonna build a bunker. I move down to kill it as his marines come up, about 5 of them with three more scvs. I slaughter them and think ok this guy sux, and that's when I see the thor coming down from the back path to my third. Three more marines trickle over. I target fire the thor, lose all my zealots and a stalker and pull back while warping in three more zealots. I target fire it again and kill it with only a couple of units left over. He gg's.

    I message him afterward and we had a bit of a conversation
    Me: someone watched the GSL last night ;)
    Him: jajajajajaja XD
    almost
    Me: Yeah, you would have beat me if I hadn't seen your SCV at the bottom of the ramp. If you had hit me with everything at once, I'd be dead.
    Him: well you weren't suppose to be at the top of the ramp XD

    Maratastik on
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