I'm not sure where they're going with it. But it looks like alot of planets are getting ready to outright revolt and leave the Republic over it.
Daala, of course, will have none of that shit. She's all for slavery if it lets her keep power.
Her desire for power aside, I'm pretty sure the Republic (and is successors) have no intention of letting planets leave its federation for any reason whatsoever, slavery or not, without a fight (or without a major pretense, such as the agreement that stops the war). Anyone who was at the top would be required to pull the overall "Unity or Death" political line. Officially, they may have that right, but that's just bullshit.
This is just based on what I've seen though. Could be quite different.
It's not like the Republic has much of a say in the matter.
If a bunch of outer rim planets decide to go "Hey, fuck you, we're doing our own thing now", there's noone that can get out there quickly (Outside of the Jedi. And as much as Daala hates it, they aren't going to be her gestapo.) enough to stop them from arming and making their own little nation.
That's sort of how the Clone Wars got started, in fact.
It's also why Daala, at the point i'm at in the books, wants to send in the frigging Mandalorians of all people (You know, the guys who exterminate entire planets for shits and giggles.), to put down a protest of pacifists who are against being slaves.
Of course, Daala, being a former Palps era Imperial, is a bit evil, and a bit unhinged. TVTropes sums it up best. Fate is an excellent example as to why you never want to put a "General Ripper" type military officer in command of an entire nation.
But man, the Republic has got it coming in Fate and the preceding series. I can see how it ends up being such a diminished entity in the Legacy comic series.
They're blatant hypocrites, and once the authors kicked out the fanboy/girl authors like Traviss, and stopped glossing over that, they started applying a bit of logic to the books. Fate is definitely an interesting take on how a supposedly benevolent nation just starts to fall apart under the weight of it's own corruption and asshattery.
I'm figuring that either the latter half of the series, or the next one, will (further) detail the Republic's slow decline, and the rise of Fel's (much more benevolent) Empire.
Liam Neeson's voice will convince anyone of anything.
You, sir, have made post of great truth.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
I'm not sure where they're going with it. But it looks like alot of planets are getting ready to outright revolt and leave the Republic over it.
Daala, of course, will have none of that shit. She's all for slavery if it lets her keep power.
Her desire for power aside, I'm pretty sure the Republic (and is successors) have no intention of letting planets leave its federation for any reason whatsoever, slavery or not, without a fight (or without a major pretense, such as the agreement that stops the war). Anyone who was at the top would be required to pull the overall "Unity or Death" political line. Officially, they may have that right, but that's just bullshit.
This is just based on what I've seen though. Could be quite different.
It's not like the Republic has much of a say in the matter.
If a bunch of outer rim planets decide to go "Hey, fuck you, we're doing our own thing now", there's noone that can get out there quickly (Outside of the Jedi. And as much as Daala hates it, they aren't going to be her gestapo.) enough to stop them from arming and making their own little nation.
That's true--except for the Republic not having much say in the matter. Because they have all the say in the universe about it (I'll get to that shortly). But as pointed out, if the Jedi can't do shit to stop slavery (which they can't for any longer then they can be in one place cutting off people's arms and mind controlling them, and potentially much, much shorter), they can't do shit to keep entire disgruntled planets from succeeding.
That's what fleets and armies are for. The Jedi are neither. That's what the Empire's fleets were for, that's what the Republic's fleets are for (fighting off alien invasions is an added bonus, unless you're Thrawn, and it's actually your cause célèbre). And by god, the Republic is going to do just that. In the old days, with the Rebels, this wasn't necessarily true, not by choice or principal, but because they were weak. Becoming a functioning government is a matter of overcoming that.
Now, whether they'll actually succeed or not....different matter entirely.
Which leads to the question of how the fuck the Republic was supposed to enforce anything. The trade federation doesn't even need to fight some taxes. They could just ignore it because what is the Republic going to do, arrest them on their home planets?
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
The Republic takes alot of time to mobilize too. That was the main point of my post.
The Jedi can get to a crisis zone alot faster then most, because they work in what's essentially cells.
A Republic fleet has to supply itself, and organize before it can move out. Which in Star Wars terms is plenty of time for an enemy fleet to get set up.
That works if Qui-Gon considers slavery to be just a "minor" offense. So much for the "compassionate" Qui-Gon, in that case.
"So you're a slave... and?"
Now that's just downright wrong. I doubt a Jedi would consider slavery something minor, something below their notice. It makes more sense that he is aware that slavery exists on Tatooine - it exists throughout the Outer Rim, I would imagine. Even if he didn't, when choosing a location to land with a leaking hyperdrive, he gets cursory information from the computer that Obi-Wan is looking at. Well, he visibly reads that it's controlled by the Hutts, for one. If he didn't know much else about it, wouldn't he take the time to do so while on their way there?
I agree, I don't think the Republic or Jedi do (or should) consider slavery a minor crime. It was President Rex who compared it to a noise complaint, I compared it to rape.
However, if Qui-Gon did consider slavery to be minor it would at least mesh with his general nonchalance over the whole thing. If he considered slavery to be a major offense, that makes it even worse that he was willing to leave Anakin's mom in bondage.
Yet he freed Anakin. Why? Qui-Gon could have easily won only the hyperdrive in the podrace gamble, yet he chose to include Anakin in the bet as well. Was Anakin some kind of expert necessary to the installation and operation of hyperdrive engines? Was Anakin some kind of Nibbler from Futurama, and they needed his poop in order to fuel the engines? Why does Qui-Gon need Anakin, to the point where he's willing to cheat Watto in order to get him?
The fact is, Qui-Gon didn't need to free Anakin at all. He WANTED to free Anakin, because Anakin could use The Force. And in order to get what he wanted, Qui-Gon was willing to cheat and defraud Watto.
Qui-Gon may not have needed to free Anakin, but in Anakin he'd seen something that the Order could not pass up. A boy with such incredible power... might grow up resentful, angry and fearful (which he did anyway, but that's hardly Qui-Gon's fault). He might learn something of his potential, seeing as it's already manifesting itself in his racing, and after learning as much as he can, use it to his advantage. He may commit murder, theft, whatever. Look at it through the Jedi's eyes - they take infants from their parents because they can't be allowed to grow up with all emotions accessible and possibly become a Dark Jedi and a threat.
Is there a record of Force-sensitive people who aren't aware of The Force causing massive destruction through the use of their Force abilities?
I haven't read all the EU stuff, but the ones I have read about this type of scenario suggest that it mostly results in the person having good luck or having vague premonitions, rather than inadvertently causing disasters if they have a bad day, Scarlett Witch-style.
For example, pre-Jedi Corran Horn has a bit faster reflexes and a bit better danger sense than most cops, but never displays any sort of Jedi-esque super-human skill in combat. Tycho still schools him on the flight simulator, and Tycho isn't even Wedge. And Corran ends up being no ordinary Jedi, the EU mary sues him into some uber-Jedi.
There is a danger of Anakin being trained by a Dark Side user, but that requires several leaps of faith that are nowhere in the movies, such as Palpatine knowing about Anakin.
Why didn't Qui-Gon free Anakin's mom? He didn't want to. He had no use for her. She wasn't some "Force Nexus" with Jedi potential, so she got left behind to be raped to death.
Oh, come on! That's completely ridiculous, and you know it. He did try to free Shmi, but Watto refused, saying, "no pod is worth two slaves, not by a long shot!". It was of far greater import that he free Anakin and get him into training, he could have returned to liberate his mother at any time. Qui-Gon had no intention of training Anakin, remember, until the Council told him that he wouldn't be trained and, as he told Obi-Wan, he would do as he must. If he was training Anakin, he would recognise the boy's link to his mother, as the Council did, and return to Tatooine to free her. Obi-Wan had no connection to her and was far more by the book than Qui-Gon - attachment is forbidden. There's a reason he never tried to help Anakin free her - I would say if Anakin did ever request it, Obi-Wan would shoot him down with the Jedi's dictum of no attachment.
That's not much of an attempt. All Qui-Gon had to do was stuff Watto in a sack and take him in for trial, especially if he considers slavery a major crime. Getting rid of just Watto doesn't stop slavery, but every little bit helps. Arresting one rapist doesn't stop all rape, but it helps.
You say "no attachment", yet Qui-Gon is clearly attached to Anakin. To the point where he's willing to cheat in order to get him - even though that's not his mission. If anything it endangers his mission, since Anakin would be a fairly high-profile figure as the winner of the podrace, and thus taking him along would increase their public profile when they're trying to stay incongnito.
Why is Qui-Gon so attached to Anakin? Because he's useful, to both Qui-Gon and the Jedi. Anakin's just a tool, to be shaped and used as the Jedi see fit. If Shmi had Force powers, would Qui-Gon have left her in slavery, yes or no? So going by the utilitarian argument we can definitely see why Qui-Gon takes only Anakin. But we can't reconcile that with the image of "compassionate" Qui-Gon, unless Qui-Gon thinks being a slave isn't all that bad.
I agree, I don't think the Republic or Jedi do (or should) consider slavery a minor crime. It was President Rex who compared it to a noise complaint, I compared it to rape.
However, if Qui-Gon did consider slavery to be minor it would at least mesh with his general nonchalance over the whole thing. If he considered slavery to be a major offense, that makes it even worse that he was willing to leave Anakin's mom in bondage.
Why should it be nonchalance? Why shouldn't it be that he knows in advance that slavery is rife in the Outer Rim, especially on a planet like Tatooine? His mission requires that he get the Queen to Coruscant as quickly as possible. Freeing slaves is far from his mind - as he told Anakin - because he can't afford to get mixed up in it, at least now while on his mission. I doubt very much that Qui-Gon liked slavery to any degree, but he wasn't about to break his cover and start freeing slaves willy-nilly.
Is there a record of Force-sensitive people who aren't aware of The Force causing massive destruction through the use of their Force abilities?
I haven't read all the EU stuff, but the ones I have read about this type of scenario suggest that it mostly results in the person having good luck or having vague premonitions, rather than inadvertently causing disasters if they have a bad day, Scarlett Witch-style.
For example, pre-Jedi Corran Horn has a bit faster reflexes and a bit better danger sense than most cops, but never displays any sort of Jedi-esque super-human skill in combat. Tycho still schools him on the flight simulator, and Tycho isn't even Wedge. And Corran ends up being no ordinary Jedi, the EU mary sues him into some uber-Jedi.
This does go into the EU, unfortunately, because the films don't deal with it. But there are more than just the two Sith out there - there are those who have left the Order and followed the Dark Side, there are Dark Jedi like Jerec who recruited his followers from anywhere he could find them... and then there's Dooku, who took on Asajj Ventress and General Grievous who he trained in lightsaber combat. True, Ventress was already well trained in the Force, and Grievous had no access to the Force, but he would have trained him in it had he the ability. If he'd encountered an older Anakin who hadn't been trained, and discovered his potential as easily as Qui-Gon did, then he sure would have drafted him.
There is a danger of Anakin being trained by a Dark Side user, but that requires several leaps of faith that are nowhere in the movies, such as Palpatine knowing about Anakin.
Palpatine apparently did know about Anakin, because he basically told him his origin story. For some reason Palpatine didn't know where this creation of his former master was until the Jedi found him, but still he knew he existed. Or so the film's dialogue implies.
That's not much of an attempt. All Qui-Gon had to do was stuff Watto in a sack and take him in for trial, especially if he considers slavery a major crime. Getting rid of just Watto doesn't stop slavery, but every little bit helps. Arresting one rapist doesn't stop all rape, but it helps.
It was an attempt all the same. He even got Anakin to sell the pod and then give the money to Shmi so she could have a better life. As Watto said, no pod is worth two slaves, not even Anakin's which was clearly faster than all the others. As for kidnapping Watto, how is this more morally correct than using the Force to influence the chance cube? With what authority could Qui-Gon take Watto and then steal the hyperdrive generator from him? This has been discussed for the last few pages, and is still being discussed. The general consensus is that the Jedi could do bugger all about it without support from the Republic, and they didn't seem at all bothered. If Qui-Gon wanted to do anything about it at all, he certainly wasn't going to do it while on a mission he desperately needs to remain unnoticed.
You say "no attachment", yet Qui-Gon is clearly attached to Anakin. To the point where he's willing to cheat in order to get him - even though that's not his mission. If anything it endangers his mission, since Anakin would be a fairly high-profile figure as the winner of the podrace, and thus taking him along would increase their public profile when they're trying to stay incongnito.
Why is Qui-Gon so attached to Anakin? Because he's useful, to both Qui-Gon and the Jedi. Anakin's just a tool, to be shaped and used as the Jedi see fit. If Shmi had Force powers, would Qui-Gon have left her in slavery, yes or no? So going by the utilitarian argument we can definitely see why Qui-Gon takes only Anakin. But we can't reconcile that with the image of "compassionate" Qui-Gon, unless Qui-Gon thinks being a slave isn't all that bad.
Attachment is something the Jedi Order preaches and rigorously defends against, but Qui-Gon defies this and quite clearly cares for people outside the usual Jedi compassion for unfortunate beings. Qui-Gon tries to get both Anakin and his mother freed, but Watto won't let the two of them go. When Jar-Jar asks for help, Qui-Gon pauses, and Obi-Wan, sensing "yet another pathetic life-form", reminds him that time is short. Qui-Gon overrules him, and brings the otherwise useless Jar-Jar along. What use is Jar-Jar to Qui-Gon? He says in the film that he may be of use, but he isn't. He's irritating company, gets in the way all the time and threatens to reveal them while stealthily moving through Theed to find the Queen with his stupidity.
The same is true of Anakin, though of course there is the massive potential that Obi-Wan tells him about, and that he believes in some prophecy of the Force. No Jedi that would encounter Anakin and discover how powerful he is would leave him to rot on Tatooine, no matter his age. Like any other Jedi who might have encountered him, Qui-Gon brought him to the Council and requested he be trained. He clearly had no intention of training Anakin himself. Though Anakin had his attention for all the Force based stuff, he is obviously the latest in a long, long line of people that Qui-Gon has helped. I can't find it online now, but I remember all the descriptions of Qui-Gon from Star Wars books and sites way back when Phantom Menace had just been released - he was seen by the other Jedi to be constantly wasting his time on "worthless projects", investing time and care on people beneath the notice of other Jedi.
True, he didn't notice anything special about Anakin until he'd spent some time with him, and only then began to think of freeing the boy from a life of slavery, but I think the reason, apart from his urgent mission in which he could afford no distractions, is that Anakin didn't appear to be of any great need. He was cared for by his mother, he was well fed and though a slave, he didn't appear to be mistreated by Watto. Watto may have made a physical motion as if to strike when we first see Anakin, but he was clearly just irritable at the time. There were no bruises on Anakin's face, and he didn't shrink back from Watto or even speak to him in an obsequious manner. He appeared healthy and well taken care of.
So yes, Qui-Gon did see a use for Anakin... as any Jedi would, if they'd encountered him like Qui-Gon did. But it wasn't as if he saw the boy as merely an object to be used - he clearly cared for him, and would have wanted a better life for him than slavery to the Hutts. Any scene he is in with Anakin he is touching his shoulders, providing a comfortable, reassuring presence. It's this father-figure type relationship that was beginning to blossom that would have saved Anakin from the Dark Side. Even if Qui-Gon didn't manage to free Shmi, his relationship with Anakin would have given him the emotional sustenance he would have needed, which he certainly did not get from the stricter Obi-Wan, who stuck to the Jedi Code and frowned on relationships closer than a working one, or that of a teacher.
For the sake of the story and Anakin bringing balance to the Force, Qui-Gon had to die. Anakin trained by Qui-Gon, away from the dictates of the Council and away from the corrupting presence of Palpatine, would undoubtedly result in a much more emotionally stable person than he became under Obi-Wan and the dark influence of the Sith.
As for would he have left Shmi there? Well, we can see that he tried to free her, but even if she did have Force ability, just look at how the Jedi train. They raise them from infancy, and the Council decide not to train Anakin because he is too old. Shmi is far, far older than her son and there's no chance the Council would agree to her training... and I doubt Qui-Gon would have tried.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
Do you have copious ammounts of money in your wallet? Has it become a burden and weighing you down? Well, no fear, George Lucas is back to take your money once more!
Many Bothans died to bring us this information.
Witch_Hunter_84 on
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
I won't lie, I will pay to go see the OT on the big screen, even in bastardized, tacked-on 3D.
Jedi came out a year before I was born and my parents were too cheap to go to the 97 rereleases.
Do you have copious ammounts of money in your wallet? Has it become a burden and weighing you down? Well, no fear, George Lucas is back to take your money once more!
Do you have copious ammounts of money in your wallet? Has it become a burden and weighing you down? Well, no fear, George Lucas is back to take your money once more!
Many Bothans died to bring us this information.
He will get no such thing.
The more effects he jams in the more fans will slip through his fingers.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
If Lucas was actually interested in the increased cinematic possibilities that 3D has to offer, he has more than enough time, money, and resources to produce (and direct *shudder*) original material to showcase this new wondertool.
I mean, we didn't NEED any more evidence that Lucas is a craven shill, but he just keeps piling it on.
What gets me is this kick he is on that the PT is as much a part of Star Wars as the OT. That's why he sees nothing wrong in releasing TPM to gauge interest in seeing Star Wars in 3D. I've never heard any interest in anyone seeing that piece of shit again on the big screen. Why is that his touchstone for Star Wars? Does he read reviews? Does he pay attention to his fanbase? Is he a giant dick that won't take no for an answer?
What gets me is this kick he is on that the PT is as much a part of Star Wars as the OT. That's why he sees nothing wrong in releasing TPM to gauge interest in seeing Star Wars in 3D. I've never heard any interest in anyone seeing that piece of shit again on the big screen. Why is that his touchstone for Star Wars? Does he read reviews? Does he pay attention to his fanbase? Is he a giant dick that won't take no for an answer?
Is he completely ignorant of the fact that the PT was effectivley destroyed by RLM?
No of course not! He just knows that there are enough people that will pay to see his crummy movies for the Nth time because HOLY SHIT NEW EFFECTS/FOOTAGE/BARBIE HAS A NEW HAT!
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
What gets me is this kick he is on that the PT is as much a part of Star Wars as the OT. That's why he sees nothing wrong in releasing TPM to gauge interest in seeing Star Wars in 3D. I've never heard any interest in anyone seeing that piece of shit again on the big screen. Why is that his touchstone for Star Wars? Does he read reviews? Does he pay attention to his fanbase? Is he a giant dick that won't take no for an answer?
Is he completely ignorant of the fact that the PT was effectivley destroyed by RLM?
No of course not! He just knows that there are enough people that will pay to see his crummy movies for the Nth time because HOLY SHIT NEW EFFECTS/FOOTAGE/BARBIE HAS A NEW HAT!
I'll say it right now, probably being proved wrong in the future:
If TPM is the first 3D film in the saga to reach theaters, it may well also be the last. I can't imagine a world where enough people to establish the event's viability are devout in their Star Wars faith to shell out $12-15 per person to see the most disappointing movie of all time . . . again.
I guess this will test whether or not George Lucas's belief that people who were kids when the prequels came out, I guess people my age that are now in their mid 20s to late teens, really liked the Phantom Menace. I was 12 when the Phantom Menace came out. That should have been right in my wheelhouse. I don't recall many people at my school liking it. I'm kind of curious how this shit is going to go down.
I guess this will test whether or not George Lucas's belief that people who were kids when the prequels came out, I guess people my age that are now in their mid 20s to late teens, really liked the Phantom Menace. I was 12 when the Phantom Menace came out. That should have been right in my wheelhouse. I don't recall many people at my school liking it. I'm kind of curious how this shit is going to go down.
Basically, Lucas has made a self-fulfilling prophecy out of his "It's for kids!" mantra by pandering very strongly to that demographic since ROTJ came out, with every product and project in that franchise skewing sharper and sharper into the 12-and-under demographic.
ANH and Empire are very clearly not for kids, and Lucas even made a strong point in '77 to refute any implication that his product was in any way intended for children. His biggest failing has always been his inability to distinguish between "suitable for children" and "unable to be enjoyed by anyone other than the most simple of children."
I mean, I can honestly remember loving the OT since I was 4 or 5 years old, and I'm old enough to have seen ROTJ in its original run. The relative higher-aiming ambitions of the OT seemed good enough for kids in the 80s, eh?
They certainly were for kids in the 90s too when they did the re-release even though they had some added crap in them that looked kind of stupid. The re-release was a huge deal, and I remember going as a kid and seeing a lot of people bringing their kids. Realistically, that's what set the bar for me regarding what the Original Trilogy would be like on the big screen, which caused the Phantom Menace to look that much worse.
Episode 1 was confusing for me, as in I didn't know how to feel about it after watching it. I went in being hyped up by stories of my parents seeing the first one in theaters back in the 70's and how awesome that was, and my own copious watchings of the digitally remastered VHS and Special Edition VHS sets of the OT. I remember standing up in the theater after it was done and not being certain if what I had just watched was really a Star Wars movie. I mean, it had the name in there and other things that were iconical of Star Wars, but it didn't feel right. I just remember being utterly puzzled and trying to figure out what the hell it was that I had just watched.
After that, seeing Episode 2 in the theater pretty much confirmed to me that, no, the PT was shit and Lucas had lost his goddamn mind.
I didn't bother to see Ep III in theaters, but saw it on DVD at a friends house when we were knocking a couple cold ones back and trying to do MST3K-style riffs while watching the entire PT Trilogy. I think that's the proper response to the whole PT thing, tbh.
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L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
This makes me more kinds of sad. Kudos to Lucas for trying to milk it more, if it succeeds; but maybe he can send some of that money this way to the funeral for my inner child that has died because of his actions.
Unless you consider "for kids" to mean fart jokes, I kinda think the original trilogy was more kid friendly than the prequels. The original trilogy's story was simple, its characters real but pretty clear in who they are and their role in things, and the dialogue didn't talk down to you but, again, not terribly complicated. Meanwhile, the prequels ended up being pretty convoluted at times and the viewer had to sit through long periods of people talking about parliamentary procedure.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Unless you consider "for kids" to mean fart jokes, I kinda think the original trilogy was more kid friendly than the prequels. The original trilogy's story was simple, its characters real but pretty clear in who they are and their role in things, and the dialogue didn't talk down to you but, again, not terribly complicated. Meanwhile, the prequels ended up being pretty convoluted at times and the viewer had to sit through long periods of people talking about parliamentary procedure.
That's a pretty apt summary of the PT.
Long, tedious, inscrutable lectures on parliamentary protocol broken up with fart jokes.
We should probably remember that this thread's audience isn't representative the audience for the movie. Some guy making perhaps very good points in a child-molester voice on the internet isn't really going to stop a wealthy man from putting out his films to fulfill his ambitions. Unfortunately.
We should probably remember that this thread's audience isn't representative the audience for the movie. Some guy making perhaps very good points in a child-molester voice on the internet isn't really going to stop a wealthy man from putting out his films to fulfill his ambitions. Unfortunately.
I have to say, I'm interested to see how it all plays out. I would actually pay money to see the OT in 3D, but there are few movies with the level of one-sided critical vitriol than those in the PT.
The PT films are not, however you want to argue it, cultural touchstones. You go back and look at films like the OT and E.T. when they were rereleased, and they didn't exactly set the world on fire. By the time ROTJ hit theaters, the crowds were disinterested, and Episode 6 pulled in a third of what Episode 4 did. E.T.'s 20th anniversary release earned a paltry $14 million opening weekend.
It's going to make money, assuredly, it's just one of those things. But I don't think it's going to make a surprising amount of money, and the returns are certainly going to diminish.
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South hostI obey without questionRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
The Sex Files was pretty good. To fit in a lesbian scene, they just had Mulder watch porn in his office while Scully was away.
South host on
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Is it the same company that makes all these parody pornos? I've seen part of the Jersey Shore one and didn't immediately realize it wasn't actually Jersey Shore
Unless you consider "for kids" to mean fart jokes, I kinda think the original trilogy was more kid friendly than the prequels. The original trilogy's story was simple, its characters real but pretty clear in who they are and their role in things, and the dialogue didn't talk down to you but, again, not terribly complicated. Meanwhile, the prequels ended up being pretty convoluted at times and the viewer had to sit through long periods of people talking about parliamentary procedure.
boring parliamentary procedure too.
I mean, if PT had been about actual political intrigue and backroom wheeling and dealing it might have been pretty good. Love me some fiction with political bickering like Rome and I've never seen it in a sci-fi setting.
Palps basically convinces the senate to do whatever he wants, is he jedi mind tricking them all? Would have been much better if he'd framed the Jedi and various "troublemaker" Republic worlds for their problems and instead of had the separatists working for him had actually caused the civil war by creating real differences between two halves of the Republic or something.
As it stands it's just so fucking convoluted and relies on all of the characters being massive idiots
That`s it, I`m making a Star Trek thread. Where we will post about the miserable job of mopping out Riker`s man-splooge from the holodecks.
I always assumed that these sort of cleaning duties are handled by some combination of the transporter and replicator system. Of course, all the clothing and food on the ship comes from the replicator.
So, at some level, everyone on the ship is wearing and eating Riker's splooge.
I mean, if PT had been about actual political intrigue and backroom wheeling and dealing it might have been pretty good. Love me some fiction with political bickering like Rome and I've never seen it in a sci-fi setting.
Palps basically convinces the senate to do whatever he wants, is he jedi mind tricking them all? Would have been much better if he'd framed the Jedi and various "troublemaker" Republic worlds for their problems and instead of had the separatists working for him had actually caused the civil war by creating real differences between two halves of the Republic or something.
As it stands it's just so fucking convoluted and relies on all of the characters being massive idiots
I really had a problem with how quickly all of the Senators fell in line for Palpatine. I imagine the Senate was populated by shrewd, power-grubbing amoral cynics, much like our Senate. Yet, they basically vote themselves out of power on the say-so of a relative nobody from a hick planet.
Lucas had the goal of showing us the rise of the Empire, but he was completely incapable of writing that in a realistic manner. He would have been better off just leaving out most of the parts dealing with the Senate.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
That`s it, I`m making a Star Trek thread. Where we will post about the miserable job of mopping out Riker`s man-splooge from the holodecks.
I always assumed that these sort of cleaning duties are handled by some combination of the transporter and replicator system. Of course, all the clothing and food on the ship comes from the replicator.
So, at some level, everyone on the ship is wearing and eating Riker's splooge.
They're releasing the movies in order I believe. Phantom Menace is coming out first.
Ugh.
Even if people liked the PT, why would he do this?
On the off chance that there's someone out there who hasn't seen Star Wars and goes to see these, the big reveal in ESB would be ruined from having seen the PT first.
FFS this is like re-releasing The Usual Suspects with an updated title card that says "Starring
Kevin Spacey
as Keyser Soze"
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I killed the thread back in February, didn't I? I'll try not to go so overboard with the geekery again. As for Phantom Menace in 3D? Can't really see the appeal, and as has been said, no bugger would go.
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...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
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It's not like the Republic has much of a say in the matter.
If a bunch of outer rim planets decide to go "Hey, fuck you, we're doing our own thing now", there's noone that can get out there quickly (Outside of the Jedi. And as much as Daala hates it, they aren't going to be her gestapo.) enough to stop them from arming and making their own little nation.
That's sort of how the Clone Wars got started, in fact.
Of course, Daala, being a former Palps era Imperial, is a bit evil, and a bit unhinged. TVTropes sums it up best. Fate is an excellent example as to why you never want to put a "General Ripper" type military officer in command of an entire nation.
But man, the Republic has got it coming in Fate and the preceding series. I can see how it ends up being such a diminished entity in the Legacy comic series.
They're blatant hypocrites, and once the authors kicked out the fanboy/girl authors like Traviss, and stopped glossing over that, they started applying a bit of logic to the books. Fate is definitely an interesting take on how a supposedly benevolent nation just starts to fall apart under the weight of it's own corruption and asshattery.
I'm figuring that either the latter half of the series, or the next one, will (further) detail the Republic's slow decline, and the rise of Fel's (much more benevolent) Empire.
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Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
That's true--except for the Republic not having much say in the matter. Because they have all the say in the universe about it (I'll get to that shortly). But as pointed out, if the Jedi can't do shit to stop slavery (which they can't for any longer then they can be in one place cutting off people's arms and mind controlling them, and potentially much, much shorter), they can't do shit to keep entire disgruntled planets from succeeding.
That's what fleets and armies are for. The Jedi are neither. That's what the Empire's fleets were for, that's what the Republic's fleets are for (fighting off alien invasions is an added bonus, unless you're Thrawn, and it's actually your cause célèbre). And by god, the Republic is going to do just that. In the old days, with the Rebels, this wasn't necessarily true, not by choice or principal, but because they were weak. Becoming a functioning government is a matter of overcoming that.
Now, whether they'll actually succeed or not....different matter entirely.
The Jedi can get to a crisis zone alot faster then most, because they work in what's essentially cells.
A Republic fleet has to supply itself, and organize before it can move out. Which in Star Wars terms is plenty of time for an enemy fleet to get set up.
I agree, I don't think the Republic or Jedi do (or should) consider slavery a minor crime. It was President Rex who compared it to a noise complaint, I compared it to rape.
However, if Qui-Gon did consider slavery to be minor it would at least mesh with his general nonchalance over the whole thing. If he considered slavery to be a major offense, that makes it even worse that he was willing to leave Anakin's mom in bondage.
Is there a record of Force-sensitive people who aren't aware of The Force causing massive destruction through the use of their Force abilities?
I haven't read all the EU stuff, but the ones I have read about this type of scenario suggest that it mostly results in the person having good luck or having vague premonitions, rather than inadvertently causing disasters if they have a bad day, Scarlett Witch-style.
For example, pre-Jedi Corran Horn has a bit faster reflexes and a bit better danger sense than most cops, but never displays any sort of Jedi-esque super-human skill in combat. Tycho still schools him on the flight simulator, and Tycho isn't even Wedge. And Corran ends up being no ordinary Jedi, the EU mary sues him into some uber-Jedi.
There is a danger of Anakin being trained by a Dark Side user, but that requires several leaps of faith that are nowhere in the movies, such as Palpatine knowing about Anakin.
That's not much of an attempt. All Qui-Gon had to do was stuff Watto in a sack and take him in for trial, especially if he considers slavery a major crime. Getting rid of just Watto doesn't stop slavery, but every little bit helps. Arresting one rapist doesn't stop all rape, but it helps.
You say "no attachment", yet Qui-Gon is clearly attached to Anakin. To the point where he's willing to cheat in order to get him - even though that's not his mission. If anything it endangers his mission, since Anakin would be a fairly high-profile figure as the winner of the podrace, and thus taking him along would increase their public profile when they're trying to stay incongnito.
Why is Qui-Gon so attached to Anakin? Because he's useful, to both Qui-Gon and the Jedi. Anakin's just a tool, to be shaped and used as the Jedi see fit. If Shmi had Force powers, would Qui-Gon have left her in slavery, yes or no? So going by the utilitarian argument we can definitely see why Qui-Gon takes only Anakin. But we can't reconcile that with the image of "compassionate" Qui-Gon, unless Qui-Gon thinks being a slave isn't all that bad.
Why should it be nonchalance? Why shouldn't it be that he knows in advance that slavery is rife in the Outer Rim, especially on a planet like Tatooine? His mission requires that he get the Queen to Coruscant as quickly as possible. Freeing slaves is far from his mind - as he told Anakin - because he can't afford to get mixed up in it, at least now while on his mission. I doubt very much that Qui-Gon liked slavery to any degree, but he wasn't about to break his cover and start freeing slaves willy-nilly.
This does go into the EU, unfortunately, because the films don't deal with it. But there are more than just the two Sith out there - there are those who have left the Order and followed the Dark Side, there are Dark Jedi like Jerec who recruited his followers from anywhere he could find them... and then there's Dooku, who took on Asajj Ventress and General Grievous who he trained in lightsaber combat. True, Ventress was already well trained in the Force, and Grievous had no access to the Force, but he would have trained him in it had he the ability. If he'd encountered an older Anakin who hadn't been trained, and discovered his potential as easily as Qui-Gon did, then he sure would have drafted him.
Palpatine apparently did know about Anakin, because he basically told him his origin story. For some reason Palpatine didn't know where this creation of his former master was until the Jedi found him, but still he knew he existed. Or so the film's dialogue implies.
It was an attempt all the same. He even got Anakin to sell the pod and then give the money to Shmi so she could have a better life. As Watto said, no pod is worth two slaves, not even Anakin's which was clearly faster than all the others. As for kidnapping Watto, how is this more morally correct than using the Force to influence the chance cube? With what authority could Qui-Gon take Watto and then steal the hyperdrive generator from him? This has been discussed for the last few pages, and is still being discussed. The general consensus is that the Jedi could do bugger all about it without support from the Republic, and they didn't seem at all bothered. If Qui-Gon wanted to do anything about it at all, he certainly wasn't going to do it while on a mission he desperately needs to remain unnoticed.
Attachment is something the Jedi Order preaches and rigorously defends against, but Qui-Gon defies this and quite clearly cares for people outside the usual Jedi compassion for unfortunate beings. Qui-Gon tries to get both Anakin and his mother freed, but Watto won't let the two of them go. When Jar-Jar asks for help, Qui-Gon pauses, and Obi-Wan, sensing "yet another pathetic life-form", reminds him that time is short. Qui-Gon overrules him, and brings the otherwise useless Jar-Jar along. What use is Jar-Jar to Qui-Gon? He says in the film that he may be of use, but he isn't. He's irritating company, gets in the way all the time and threatens to reveal them while stealthily moving through Theed to find the Queen with his stupidity.
The same is true of Anakin, though of course there is the massive potential that Obi-Wan tells him about, and that he believes in some prophecy of the Force. No Jedi that would encounter Anakin and discover how powerful he is would leave him to rot on Tatooine, no matter his age. Like any other Jedi who might have encountered him, Qui-Gon brought him to the Council and requested he be trained. He clearly had no intention of training Anakin himself. Though Anakin had his attention for all the Force based stuff, he is obviously the latest in a long, long line of people that Qui-Gon has helped. I can't find it online now, but I remember all the descriptions of Qui-Gon from Star Wars books and sites way back when Phantom Menace had just been released - he was seen by the other Jedi to be constantly wasting his time on "worthless projects", investing time and care on people beneath the notice of other Jedi.
True, he didn't notice anything special about Anakin until he'd spent some time with him, and only then began to think of freeing the boy from a life of slavery, but I think the reason, apart from his urgent mission in which he could afford no distractions, is that Anakin didn't appear to be of any great need. He was cared for by his mother, he was well fed and though a slave, he didn't appear to be mistreated by Watto. Watto may have made a physical motion as if to strike when we first see Anakin, but he was clearly just irritable at the time. There were no bruises on Anakin's face, and he didn't shrink back from Watto or even speak to him in an obsequious manner. He appeared healthy and well taken care of.
So yes, Qui-Gon did see a use for Anakin... as any Jedi would, if they'd encountered him like Qui-Gon did. But it wasn't as if he saw the boy as merely an object to be used - he clearly cared for him, and would have wanted a better life for him than slavery to the Hutts. Any scene he is in with Anakin he is touching his shoulders, providing a comfortable, reassuring presence. It's this father-figure type relationship that was beginning to blossom that would have saved Anakin from the Dark Side. Even if Qui-Gon didn't manage to free Shmi, his relationship with Anakin would have given him the emotional sustenance he would have needed, which he certainly did not get from the stricter Obi-Wan, who stuck to the Jedi Code and frowned on relationships closer than a working one, or that of a teacher.
For the sake of the story and Anakin bringing balance to the Force, Qui-Gon had to die. Anakin trained by Qui-Gon, away from the dictates of the Council and away from the corrupting presence of Palpatine, would undoubtedly result in a much more emotionally stable person than he became under Obi-Wan and the dark influence of the Sith.
As for would he have left Shmi there? Well, we can see that he tried to free her, but even if she did have Force ability, just look at how the Jedi train. They raise them from infancy, and the Council decide not to train Anakin because he is too old. Shmi is far, far older than her son and there's no chance the Council would agree to her training... and I doubt Qui-Gon would have tried.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
Many Bothans died to bring us this information.
Jedi came out a year before I was born and my parents were too cheap to go to the 97 rereleases.
He will get no such thing.
The more effects he jams in the more fans will slip through his fingers.
I mean, we didn't NEED any more evidence that Lucas is a craven shill, but he just keeps piling it on.
Is he completely ignorant of the fact that the PT was effectivley destroyed by RLM?
No of course not! He just knows that there are enough people that will pay to see his crummy movies for the Nth time because HOLY SHIT NEW EFFECTS/FOOTAGE/BARBIE HAS A NEW HAT!
I'll say it right now, probably being proved wrong in the future:
If TPM is the first 3D film in the saga to reach theaters, it may well also be the last. I can't imagine a world where enough people to establish the event's viability are devout in their Star Wars faith to shell out $12-15 per person to see the most disappointing movie of all time . . . again.
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Basically, Lucas has made a self-fulfilling prophecy out of his "It's for kids!" mantra by pandering very strongly to that demographic since ROTJ came out, with every product and project in that franchise skewing sharper and sharper into the 12-and-under demographic.
ANH and Empire are very clearly not for kids, and Lucas even made a strong point in '77 to refute any implication that his product was in any way intended for children. His biggest failing has always been his inability to distinguish between "suitable for children" and "unable to be enjoyed by anyone other than the most simple of children."
I mean, I can honestly remember loving the OT since I was 4 or 5 years old, and I'm old enough to have seen ROTJ in its original run. The relative higher-aiming ambitions of the OT seemed good enough for kids in the 80s, eh?
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After that, seeing Episode 2 in the theater pretty much confirmed to me that, no, the PT was shit and Lucas had lost his goddamn mind.
I didn't bother to see Ep III in theaters, but saw it on DVD at a friends house when we were knocking a couple cold ones back and trying to do MST3K-style riffs while watching the entire PT Trilogy. I think that's the proper response to the whole PT thing, tbh.
That's a pretty apt summary of the PT.
Long, tedious, inscrutable lectures on parliamentary protocol broken up with fart jokes.
Except you know, for adults!
Data's wang is 100% CGI!
But it's too late, I've seen everything.
I have to say, I'm interested to see how it all plays out. I would actually pay money to see the OT in 3D, but there are few movies with the level of one-sided critical vitriol than those in the PT.
The PT films are not, however you want to argue it, cultural touchstones. You go back and look at films like the OT and E.T. when they were rereleased, and they didn't exactly set the world on fire. By the time ROTJ hit theaters, the crowds were disinterested, and Episode 6 pulled in a third of what Episode 4 did. E.T.'s 20th anniversary release earned a paltry $14 million opening weekend.
It's going to make money, assuredly, it's just one of those things. But I don't think it's going to make a surprising amount of money, and the returns are certainly going to diminish.
boring parliamentary procedure too.
I mean, if PT had been about actual political intrigue and backroom wheeling and dealing it might have been pretty good. Love me some fiction with political bickering like Rome and I've never seen it in a sci-fi setting.
Palps basically convinces the senate to do whatever he wants, is he jedi mind tricking them all? Would have been much better if he'd framed the Jedi and various "troublemaker" Republic worlds for their problems and instead of had the separatists working for him had actually caused the civil war by creating real differences between two halves of the Republic or something.
As it stands it's just so fucking convoluted and relies on all of the characters being massive idiots
I always assumed that these sort of cleaning duties are handled by some combination of the transporter and replicator system. Of course, all the clothing and food on the ship comes from the replicator.
So, at some level, everyone on the ship is wearing and eating Riker's splooge.
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Lucas had the goal of showing us the rise of the Empire, but he was completely incapable of writing that in a realistic manner. He would have been better off just leaving out most of the parts dealing with the Senate.
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Holy crap.
Ugh.
Even if people liked the PT, why would he do this?
On the off chance that there's someone out there who hasn't seen Star Wars and goes to see these, the big reveal in ESB would be ruined from having seen the PT first.
FFS this is like re-releasing The Usual Suspects with an updated title card that says "Starring
No lie, my fiancee and I are watching both over the course of the week. Scully was bang on.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten