It would have been a lot more convincing that things like that led to Anakin abandoning the Jedi Council if he didn't immediately go kill a bunch of kids after that.
It was basically:
Mace: Palpatine the traitor must die!
Anakin: No way, he's defenseless, you guys are hippocrites.
Palpatine: Thanks Anakin, now can you go kill some children for me?
Anakin: Sure fuck it why not.
I never noticed that. If Mace was in the wrong when he wanted to execute Palpatine, then Anakin was in the right when he chose to stop him. So, why would he then end up turning to the dark side after making the morally correct decision?
Anakin goes from being in favor of trials and insisting on following the law in one scene, to slicing up defenseless children with a laser-sword in the next.
Anakin's redemption at the end of the OT always kind of bothered me. The guy was involved in the deaths of potentially billions of defenseless civilians, yet he seems to get no punishment in the Jedi afterlife. It's an odd moral message. The only thing Anakin did to redeem himself was throw an old man down an elevator shaft.
It's like a straight up Christian moral message.
Honestly, I always assumed it was basically just saying, "You went to the dark side by not agreeing to hack this dangerous old man to pieces like is standard Jedi operating procedure for enemies."
Or, in a sort half-empty rather than half-full way, "You fell from the light side for not doing what your light side Jedi comrades were doing, namely, choppin' a dude up after a fight."
Basically, he might as well have killed a bunch of kids. They're both bad no-nos to the Jedi.
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South hostI obey without questionRegistered Userregular
How does a man who can manipulate the minds of any mundane judge and jury stand trial though. The trial would have to consist of nothing but Jedi able to resist his influence, either way the Jedi are gong to be the ones passing judgement.
Do it over TV or whatever. Can't manipulate from lightyears away. Unless they can, in which case, I call bullshit.
Vader chokes people over the phone. No reason to think other powers wouldn't work too. Which is kind of bullshit.
Well, that was only over a relatively short distance. He was onboard the same ship, and knew exactly where the guy was.
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
How does a man who can manipulate the minds of any mundane judge and jury stand trial though. The trial would have to consist of nothing but Jedi able to resist his influence, either way the Jedi are gong to be the ones passing judgement.
Do it over TV or whatever. Can't manipulate from lightyears away. Unless they can, in which case, I call bullshit.
Vader chokes people over the phone. No reason to think other powers wouldn't work too. Which is kind of bullshit.
Well, that was only over a relatively short distance. He was onboard the same ship, and knew exactly where the guy was.
On the other hand, depending on how you interpret some of the lines in the PT, Palpatine was able to brain fuck every Jedi master on the council into complete and total stupidity without them even noticing that something was going on.
How does a man who can manipulate the minds of any mundane judge and jury stand trial though. The trial would have to consist of nothing but Jedi able to resist his influence, either way the Jedi are gong to be the ones passing judgement.
Do it over TV or whatever. Can't manipulate from lightyears away. Unless they can, in which case, I call bullshit.
Vader chokes people over the phone. No reason to think other powers wouldn't work too. Which is kind of bullshit.
Well, that was only over a relatively short distance. He was onboard the same ship, and knew exactly where the guy was.
On the other hand, depending on how you interpret some of the lines in the PT, Palpatine was able to brain fuck every Jedi master on the council into complete and total stupidity without them even noticing that something was going on.
It's a lot less disheartening then, "They're all just total fucking morons."
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
edited April 2011
Wait.
Why are people acting like he was surrendered?
HE WAS STILL SHOOTING LIGHTNING!
I'm sorry. Death lightning is a clear sign of resisting arrest. I mean, prequel Jedi are pompous morons, but Russell Franklin is right. Death laser man with mind control powers is exactly the sort of situation you want lethal force for.
I think he did lose the lightsaber fight. I can't remember the details, but Mace Windu's style of fighting meant that he strove to break his opponent through the use of "shatter points" - something to do with finding the weaknesses in your opponent and taking advantage to strike quickly. I'm 100% sure that I read somewhere that Mace had found Palpatine's shatter point - and also found out somehow that Palpatine trusted Anakin completely.
Palpatine had plenty of energy (no pun intended) left in him, but he really had lost the fight. I'm not even sure why he put on that facade of being afraid of Windu because he surely knew that Anakin would turn against the Jedi if pushed.
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...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
I'd imagine he feigned being beaten so that Anakin would come to the aid of a helpless old man who he's convinced can save his wife from certain death. The final act of "heroism" that turns him away from the Jedi for good.
It wasn't an act of heroism to help the Sith Lord murder a Jedi Master. I can't agree with theories like this as a reasoning for his light side redemption:
Honestly, I always assumed it was basically just saying, "You went to the dark side by not agreeing to hack this dangerous old man to pieces like is standard Jedi operating procedure for enemies."
I mean he massacred Dooku just the other day, ignoring his Jedi standard operation procedure of "horribly maim but take alive" to behead the helpless prisoner at the Sith Lord's slightest suggestion. And then 5 minutes later he's murdering his former allies, including children. Then he spends 20 years murdering tons of people.
There's no way all that is ok because Palpatine acted helpless for a moment, lol. Either Dark Side/Light Side is completely about current state of mind and any big emotional shock can flip you like a switch or there's some kind of Karmic points meter a la Bioware games and killing Palpatine is just such an overwhelmingly positive move that it outweighs a lifetime of horrible sin. I could possibly see that, given what more of his rule would entail.
It seemed pretty unnecessary to me, with Anakin seeming pretty determined on his path before he arrived on the scene. So he chops off Windu's hand, expresses remorse, then Palpatine tells him that "to cheat death is a power only one has achieved; but together, I know we can discover the secret". But before that he'd told him, "Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. The power to save your wife from certain death" and, "I have the power to save the one you love!"
So, somehow Palpatine knew it was Qui-Gon, and he fooled Anakin into thinking that it was Plagueis. Where was Anakin's anger? Having been promised that he could save his wife if he turned his back on the Jedi, he's now told that Palpatine has yet to discover the secret? Moments ago he was showing remorse for having disabled Windu, having wept while alone in the Jedi Council tower for what he must do to save Padme! And yet off he goes, killing children and the people he's grown up with. Horrible, horrible writing.
At one point Palpatine had the bounty hunter Cad Bane infiltrate the Holocron Vault inside the Jedi Temple, and steal a holocron. This shows that Palpatine was desperate for knowledge the Jedi held. It's not inconceivable that he had Vader retrieve as many of them as possible during the assault on the temple. By the time he tells him that he's killed Padme himself, he can hardly turn back and profess loyalty to the Jedi - he's stuck where he is, but still no anger that Palpatine had tricked him? By the time of Palpatine's death, it's clear that he hadn't discovered the secret, though Anakin somehow had.
But let's not go there.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
I'd imagine he feigned being beaten so that Anakin would come to the aid of a helpless old man who he's convinced can save his wife from certain death. The final act of "heroism" that turns him away from the Jedi for good.
Another massive plot hole. Palpatine had told him some vague legend about a long-dead Sith Lord who could purportedly bring people back from the dead. That's really the definition of grasping at straws. Did Anakin have any evidence whatsoever that this was in any way possible? Of course not. But, the PT plot is predicated on the characters acting like morons. Palpatine's whole plot could have been derailed at any time if one of any number of the characters had acted with even average level intelligence.
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I'd imagine he feigned being beaten so that Anakin would come to the aid of a helpless old man who he's convinced can save his wife from certain death. The final act of "heroism" that turns him away from the Jedi for good.
Another massive plot hole. Palpatine had told him some vague legend about a long-dead Sith Lord who could purportedly bring people back from the dead. That's really the definition of grasping at straws. Did Anakin have any evidence whatsoever that this was in any way possible? Of course not. But, the PT plot is predicated on the characters acting like morons. Palpatine's whole plot could have been derailed at any time if one of any number of the characters had acted with even average level intelligence.
Yes, the entirely of the PT is dependent on people acting in the least intelligent way possible, as well as being completely oblivious to obvious harbingers of ill-tidings, and jumping to irrational conclusions.
If the PT was a film school writing assignment at the senior level, the last page would have had a hand-written notation, writ in red ink:
"Mr. Lucas,
I'm very worried that your time here has been poorly spent. Your characters are paper thin, there are no rational motivators anywhere within your plots, you spend way too many pages developing irrelevant characters, and your story makes absolutely no sense.
Based on this assignment and others, I'm afraid I have no choice but to fail you this semester with a grade of D-minus. See me after class."
Yes, the entirely of the PT is dependent on people acting in the least intelligent way possible, as well as being completely oblivious to obvious harbingers of ill-tidings, and jumping to irrational conclusions.
If the PT was a film school writing assignment at the senior level, the last page would have had a hand-written notation, writ in red ink:
"Mr. Lucas,
I'm very worried that your time here has been poorly spent. Your characters are paper thin, there are no rational motivators anywhere within your plots, you spend way too many pages developing irrelevant characters, and your story makes absolutely no sense.
Based on this assignment and others, I'm afraid I have no choice but to fail you this semester with a grade of D-minus. See me after class."
How about the Separatists? What's their motivation for starting up a civil war? IIRC, they were a bunch of interstellar merchants, bankers and industrialists. Those are hardly the type of people who want to mess with the status quo- they are the status quo. I never understood why they were so eager to join up with Palpatine's little plot. Unless the reason was that he mind controlled all of them. In which case, everything else in the story becomes irrelevant, since it all comes down to mind control. Which is hack writer bullshit on par with "a wizard did it."
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
I'd imagine he feigned being beaten so that Anakin would come to the aid of a helpless old man who he's convinced can save his wife from certain death. The final act of "heroism" that turns him away from the Jedi for good.
Another massive plot hole. Palpatine had told him some vague legend about a long-dead Sith Lord who could purportedly bring people back from the dead. That's really the definition of grasping at straws. Did Anakin have any evidence whatsoever that this was in any way possible? Of course not. But, the PT plot is predicated on the characters acting like morons. Palpatine's whole plot could have been derailed at any time if one of any number of the characters had acted with even average level intelligence.
Average?
Scott "I'm in lesbians with you" Pilgrim is too smart for this plot.
Todd "Chicken isn't Vegan" Ingram would have wrecked the whole plot with his comparatively massive intellect.
When the morons of other works of fiction are far too smart for your plot, you might have made a tiny mistake somewhere.
To me the ending of the OT is just as messed up as Anakin's fall in the PT.
So, the Emperor gives up on turning Luke. He sits there curbstomping Luke with lightning for several minutes. Finally Vader intervenes, get zapped for like 3 or 4 seconds tops, and he's dead, yet Luke has no obvious ill effects, despite Vader being much more powerful in the force.
Now, Luke is a young guy, Vader is in a suit to keep him alive, so I can buy that. What I can't really buy is the redemption thing.
Vader, who had no real expectation of death (though he probably new it wasn't particularly safe), intervened to save his son. Not some random guy, not the rebels fighting on Endor, but his son, the one guy in the universe who he was probably most emotionally attached to. From a guy who 5 minutes ago was telling that same son to kill him.
That's a redemption? So all it takes to completely redeem yourself for billions of deaths is to show a tiny fragment of human emotion?
Lets see, Vader in his life had killed an entire village of relatively innocent people because one of them had killed his mom, was complicit in the murder of the entire jedi order, personally murdered a bunch of 6 year olds, killed an entire planet full of people, and likely killed tons of people off screen. And one moment of intervention to keep his most favorite person in the universe from getting killed redeems all that?
I can only imagine the conversations with Leia if he'd survived. "Leia, remember that time I killed everyone and everything you ever knew and loved? Sorry that was kind of a dick move, didn't know you were my daughter, won't happen again."
But Palpatine didn't surrender, this was part of his plan, it's one reason he was so dangerous, he knew how to scheme and manipulate things. Plus he was damn powerful, crazy powerful, he just killed three Jedi Masters like they were absolutely nothing. He had hidden himself from all the Jedi, he had been in their presence and none had known. He had been behind everything, prison was not going to hold him.
And yes the Republic does execute people, the guy who built the Death Star for example was executed along with a few others.
If you go by much of what the Jedi have done the light side allows for a good many things, it even allowed Luke to use Force choke which is usually seen as a Sith power with no side effect at all.
I don't recall Luke using a Force Choke in the movies so I assume you're going by the EU. In which case, the Jedi could have easily held Palpatine in prison using ysalamiri. Or they could have severed him from the Force like they tried to do with the Exile in KOTOR 2.
Going by the movies - if the rule is that "no prison can hold a Jedi/Sith", then why does Vader handcuff Luke before bringing him to the Emperor in RotJ? And if you need Palps to stop shooting lightning, how about cutting off his hands? Or freeze him in carbonite.
The reason Mace gives for wanting to summarily execute Palpatine (which is different from a Republic execution following trial and due process) isn't that Palpatine will attack them physically (Mace has already defeated Palpatine in physical combat), it's that Palpatine has too much control over the Senate and the courts.
Mace isn't just saying that Palpatine is corrupt and untrustworthy, he's basically saying the entire Republic is corrupt and untrustworthy. If Mace is willing to summarily execute the Chancellor, what is there to suggest he wouldn't do the same to the Vice Chancellor? Or pro-Palpatine Senators? Or pro-Palpatine judges? Or pro-Palpatine civilians?
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
To me the ending of the OT is just as messed up as Anakin's fall in the PT.
So, the Emperor gives up on turning Luke. He sits there curbstomping Luke with lightning for several minutes. Finally Vader intervenes, get zapped for like 3 or 4 seconds tops, and he's dead, yet Luke has no obvious ill effects, despite Vader being much more powerful in the force.
Now, Luke is a young guy, Vader is in a suit to keep him alive, so I can buy that. What I can't really buy is the redemption thing.
Vader, who had no real expectation of death (though he probably new it wasn't particularly safe), intervened to save his son. Not some random guy, not the rebels fighting on Endor, but his son, the one guy in the universe who he was probably most emotionally attached to. From a guy who 5 minutes ago was telling that same son to kill him.
That's a redemption? So all it takes to completely redeem yourself for billions of deaths is to show a tiny fragment of human emotion?
Lets see, Vader in his life had killed an entire village of relatively innocent people because one of them had killed his mom, was complicit in the murder of the entire jedi order, personally murdered a bunch of 6 year olds, killed an entire planet full of people, and likely killed tons of people off screen. And one moment of intervention to keep his most favorite person in the universe from getting killed redeems all that?
I can only imagine the conversations with Leia if he'd survived. "Leia, remember that time I killed everyone and everything you ever knew and loved? Sorry that was kind of a dick move, didn't know you were my daughter, won't happen again."
To me, the movies never wanted you to think Anakin Skywalker = Darth Vader. Instead, the movies want you to view Darth Vader as this, well, evil entity that has taken control of Anakin Skywalker. Fairly often they talk about how the Dark Side is a corrupting influence. While this doesn't absolve Anakin of his crimes, if he was, well, possessed in a manner of speaking, by the Dark Side, then he could very well be redeemed (in that he defeats that corruption and frees himself of it) simply by saving Luke.
To me the ending of the OT is just as messed up as Anakin's fall in the PT.
So, the Emperor gives up on turning Luke. He sits there curbstomping Luke with lightning for several minutes. Finally Vader intervenes, get zapped for like 3 or 4 seconds tops, and he's dead, yet Luke has no obvious ill effects, despite Vader being much more powerful in the force.
Now, Luke is a young guy, Vader is in a suit to keep him alive, so I can buy that. What I can't really buy is the redemption thing.
Vader, who had no real expectation of death (though he probably new it wasn't particularly safe), intervened to save his son. Not some random guy, not the rebels fighting on Endor, but his son, the one guy in the universe who he was probably most emotionally attached to. From a guy who 5 minutes ago was telling that same son to kill him.
That's a redemption? So all it takes to completely redeem yourself for billions of deaths is to show a tiny fragment of human emotion?
Lets see, Vader in his life had killed an entire village of relatively innocent people because one of them had killed his mom, was complicit in the murder of the entire jedi order, personally murdered a bunch of 6 year olds, killed an entire planet full of people, and likely killed tons of people off screen. And one moment of intervention to keep his most favorite person in the universe from getting killed redeems all that?
I can only imagine the conversations with Leia if he'd survived. "Leia, remember that time I killed everyone and everything you ever knew and loved? Sorry that was kind of a dick move, didn't know you were my daughter, won't happen again."
Maybe that's all it takes to be redeemed in the eyes of the force. Who knows? It's not like Jedi morality is particularly well thought out.
But, if Vader had survived ROTJ, his "redemption" wouldn't have prevented him from being tried and executed for a shit-ton of war crimes and atrocities.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Yes, the entirely of the PT is dependent on people acting in the least intelligent way possible, as well as being completely oblivious to obvious harbingers of ill-tidings, and jumping to irrational conclusions.
If the PT was a film school writing assignment at the senior level, the last page would have had a hand-written notation, writ in red ink:
"Mr. Lucas,
I'm very worried that your time here has been poorly spent. Your characters are paper thin, there are no rational motivators anywhere within your plots, you spend way too many pages developing irrelevant characters, and your story makes absolutely no sense.
Based on this assignment and others, I'm afraid I have no choice but to fail you this semester with a grade of D-minus. See me after class."
How about the Separatists? What's their motivation for starting up a civil war? IIRC, they were a bunch of interstellar merchants, bankers and industrialists. Those are hardly the type of people who want to mess with the status quo- they are the status quo. I never understood why they were so eager to join up with Palpatine's little plot. Unless the reason was that he mind controlled all of them. In which case, everything else in the story becomes irrelevant, since it all comes down to mind control. Which is hack writer bullshit on par with "a wizard did it."
The thing is, Phantom Menace establishes the fact that the Republic is already fairly factitious and eager to split. Why Lucas just didn't go with a civil war scenario baffles me.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
To me the ending of the OT is just as messed up as Anakin's fall in the PT.
So, the Emperor gives up on turning Luke. He sits there curbstomping Luke with lightning for several minutes. Finally Vader intervenes, get zapped for like 3 or 4 seconds tops, and he's dead, yet Luke has no obvious ill effects, despite Vader being much more powerful in the force.
Now, Luke is a young guy, Vader is in a suit to keep him alive, so I can buy that. What I can't really buy is the redemption thing.
Vader, who had no real expectation of death (though he probably new it wasn't particularly safe), intervened to save his son. Not some random guy, not the rebels fighting on Endor, but his son, the one guy in the universe who he was probably most emotionally attached to. From a guy who 5 minutes ago was telling that same son to kill him.
That's a redemption? So all it takes to completely redeem yourself for billions of deaths is to show a tiny fragment of human emotion?
Lets see, Vader in his life had killed an entire village of relatively innocent people because one of them had killed his mom, was complicit in the murder of the entire jedi order, personally murdered a bunch of 6 year olds, killed an entire planet full of people, and likely killed tons of people off screen. And one moment of intervention to keep his most favorite person in the universe from getting killed redeems all that?
I can only imagine the conversations with Leia if he'd survived. "Leia, remember that time I killed everyone and everything you ever knew and loved? Sorry that was kind of a dick move, didn't know you were my daughter, won't happen again."
To me, the movies never wanted you to think Anakin Skywalker = Darth Vader. Instead, the movies want you to view Darth Vader as this, well, evil entity that has taken control of Anakin Skywalker. Fairly often they talk about how the Dark Side is a corrupting influence. While this doesn't absolve Anakin of his crimes, if he was, well, possessed in a manner of speaking, by the Dark Side, then he could very well be redeemed (in that he defeats that corruption and frees himself of it) simply by saving Luke.
The real problem though is that the prequels are kind of bad at making anakin a sympathetic character who is corrupted. Dude's a douchebag since Episode 2 began.
I don't recall Luke using a Force Choke in the movies so I assume you're going by the EU. In which case, the Jedi could have easily held Palpatine in prison using ysalamiri. Or they could have severed him from the Force like they tried to do with the Exile in KOTOR 2.
Going by the movies - if the rule is that "no prison can hold a Jedi/Sith", then why does Vader handcuff Luke before bringing him to the Emperor in RotJ? And if you need Palps to stop shooting lightning, how about cutting off his hands? Or freeze him in carbonite.
The Jedi never managed to actually sever the Exile from the Force. I don't know if there are other examples of separation, but the Exile's disconnect was brought on by her own experiences, being involved in things so horrible and detrimental to life that she needed to be broken off from the Force.
Luke couldn't beat Vader without going dark side, and the Emperor wanted him intact. Carbonite freezing was also untested, Fett was all antsy that Solo might not survive, and Solo himself was just to test the system for Luke.
I'm throwing my hat into the ring for "you guys are over thinking everything". Jedi aren't supposed to be evil or stupid, they're just the worst written things in a horribly written set of movies.
I still choose to pretend that Jedi are wandering ex-sheriff types in a space western, like Clint Eastwood with a sword, completely decentralized and the PT/EU never happened. Sometimes authors just don't know whats best for their own works.
I don't recall Luke using a Force Choke in the movies so I assume you're going by the EU. In which case, the Jedi could have easily held Palpatine in prison using ysalamiri. Or they could have severed him from the Force like they tried to do with the Exile in KOTOR 2.
Going by the movies - if the rule is that "no prison can hold a Jedi/Sith", then why does Vader handcuff Luke before bringing him to the Emperor in RotJ? And if you need Palps to stop shooting lightning, how about cutting off his hands? Or freeze him in carbonite.
The Jedi never managed to actually sever the Exile from the Force. I don't know if there are other examples of separation, but the Exile's disconnect was brought on by her own experiences, being involved in things so horrible and detrimental to life that she needed to be broken off from the Force.
Luke couldn't beat Vader without going dark side, and the Emperor wanted him intact. Carbonite freezing was also untested, Fett was all antsy that Solo might not survive, and Solo himself was just to test the system for Luke.
I'm throwing my hat into the ring for "you guys are over thinking everything". Jedi aren't supposed to be evil or stupid, they're just the worst written things in a horribly written set of movies.
I still choose to pretend that Jedi are wandering ex-sheriff types in a space western, like Clint Eastwood with a sword, completely decentralized and the PT/EU never happened. Sometimes authors just don't know whats best for their own works.
I don't recall Luke using a Force Choke in the movies so I assume you're going by the EU. In which case, the Jedi could have easily held Palpatine in prison using ysalamiri. Or they could have severed him from the Force like they tried to do with the Exile in KOTOR 2.
Going by the movies - if the rule is that "no prison can hold a Jedi/Sith", then why does Vader handcuff Luke before bringing him to the Emperor in RotJ? And if you need Palps to stop shooting lightning, how about cutting off his hands? Or freeze him in carbonite.
The Jedi never managed to actually sever the Exile from the Force. I don't know if there are other examples of separation, but the Exile's disconnect was brought on by her own experiences, being involved in things so horrible and detrimental to life that she needed to be broken off from the Force.
Luke couldn't beat Vader without going dark side, and the Emperor wanted him intact. Carbonite freezing was also untested, Fett was all antsy that Solo might not survive, and Solo himself was just to test the system for Luke.
I'm throwing my hat into the ring for "you guys are over thinking everything". Jedi aren't supposed to be evil or stupid, they're just the worst written things in a horribly written set of movies.
I still choose to pretend that Jedi are wandering ex-sheriff types in a space western, like Clint Eastwood with a sword, completely decentralized and the PT/EU never happened. Sometimes authors just don't know whats best for their own works.
I agree the Jedi aren't supposed to be as unsympathetic as they are. I'm sure there were lots of good Jedi running around just helping to save drowning kittens and stuff.
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure we see Jedi other than Qui-Gon (when he saves Jar Jar from Boss Nass) performing, or even being inclined to perform, any random acts of do-goodery. That's a little weird for a group that's supposed to be the galaxy's guardians of all that is good and just. Anakin's a better person before he becomes a Jedi, he offers to help Qui-Gon fix the ship, and then offers up his pod and racing services, with no thought of personal gain.
I was curious so checked, we just see them falling back to the wall choking and the camera pans away. I think yes we're supposed to imagine the Jedi less ruthless than that, but given how he just mows down everyone else later, lol...
I was curious so checked, we just see them falling back to the wall choking and the camera pans away. I think yes we're supposed to imagine the Jedi less ruthless than that, but given how he just mows down everyone else later, lol...
Maybe we are now, what with the extensive EU to back up the image of the peaceful jedi warrior-monk policing the known galaxy.
At the time RotJ came out though, there was only one other dude you had seen using the force to choke people, and none of those people got back up afterwards.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
One of my faovirte points about the prequels from a professional critic was Roger Ebert and how Lucas managed to fuck up a scene where a young woman tells her husband that she's pregnant.
I think the big thing is he went entirely the wrong direction with it. It would have been better if she told him, and he goes kind of blank and sits down, and she starts talking fast, and there's a definite feeling of "Is he gonna be mad, does he need time", and she's worried. And then this big grin splits his face and he goes "I'm gonna be a dad?!"
(or something, I dunno)
Point being, he really does love her, he wants to be a family man, and he's still immature and doesn't think things through.
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You know it's your destiny.
Hrmph, I hate when that happens.
Honestly, I always assumed it was basically just saying, "You went to the dark side by not agreeing to hack this dangerous old man to pieces like is standard Jedi operating procedure for enemies."
Or, in a sort half-empty rather than half-full way, "You fell from the light side for not doing what your light side Jedi comrades were doing, namely, choppin' a dude up after a fight."
Basically, he might as well have killed a bunch of kids. They're both bad no-nos to the Jedi.
Well, that was only over a relatively short distance. He was onboard the same ship, and knew exactly where the guy was.
You could do it with a bunch of choke-proof cybernetic constructs, Ghost in the Shell-style, and they'd say, "He controls all the courts!".
On the other hand, depending on how you interpret some of the lines in the PT, Palpatine was able to brain fuck every Jedi master on the council into complete and total stupidity without them even noticing that something was going on.
It's a lot less disheartening then, "They're all just total fucking morons."
Why are people acting like he was surrendered?
HE WAS STILL SHOOTING LIGHTNING!
I'm sorry. Death lightning is a clear sign of resisting arrest. I mean, prequel Jedi are pompous morons, but Russell Franklin is right. Death laser man with mind control powers is exactly the sort of situation you want lethal force for.
Why I fear the ocean.
Which if funny given THIS IS THE GUY THAT CONVINCED ANAKIN TO KILL DOOKU NOT ONE HOUR AGO.
Palpatine had plenty of energy (no pun intended) left in him, but he really had lost the fight. I'm not even sure why he put on that facade of being afraid of Windu because he surely knew that Anakin would turn against the Jedi if pushed.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
I mean he massacred Dooku just the other day, ignoring his Jedi standard operation procedure of "horribly maim but take alive" to behead the helpless prisoner at the Sith Lord's slightest suggestion. And then 5 minutes later he's murdering his former allies, including children. Then he spends 20 years murdering tons of people.
There's no way all that is ok because Palpatine acted helpless for a moment, lol. Either Dark Side/Light Side is completely about current state of mind and any big emotional shock can flip you like a switch or there's some kind of Karmic points meter a la Bioware games and killing Palpatine is just such an overwhelmingly positive move that it outweighs a lifetime of horrible sin. I could possibly see that, given what more of his rule would entail.
So, somehow Palpatine knew it was Qui-Gon, and he fooled Anakin into thinking that it was Plagueis. Where was Anakin's anger? Having been promised that he could save his wife if he turned his back on the Jedi, he's now told that Palpatine has yet to discover the secret? Moments ago he was showing remorse for having disabled Windu, having wept while alone in the Jedi Council tower for what he must do to save Padme! And yet off he goes, killing children and the people he's grown up with. Horrible, horrible writing.
At one point Palpatine had the bounty hunter Cad Bane infiltrate the Holocron Vault inside the Jedi Temple, and steal a holocron. This shows that Palpatine was desperate for knowledge the Jedi held. It's not inconceivable that he had Vader retrieve as many of them as possible during the assault on the temple. By the time he tells him that he's killed Padme himself, he can hardly turn back and profess loyalty to the Jedi - he's stuck where he is, but still no anger that Palpatine had tricked him? By the time of Palpatine's death, it's clear that he hadn't discovered the secret, though Anakin somehow had.
But let's not go there.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
Rigorous Scholarship
Yes, the entirely of the PT is dependent on people acting in the least intelligent way possible, as well as being completely oblivious to obvious harbingers of ill-tidings, and jumping to irrational conclusions.
If the PT was a film school writing assignment at the senior level, the last page would have had a hand-written notation, writ in red ink:
"Mr. Lucas,
I'm very worried that your time here has been poorly spent. Your characters are paper thin, there are no rational motivators anywhere within your plots, you spend way too many pages developing irrelevant characters, and your story makes absolutely no sense.
Based on this assignment and others, I'm afraid I have no choice but to fail you this semester with a grade of D-minus. See me after class."
Rigorous Scholarship
Average?
Scott "I'm in lesbians with you" Pilgrim is too smart for this plot.
Todd "Chicken isn't Vegan" Ingram would have wrecked the whole plot with his comparatively massive intellect.
When the morons of other works of fiction are far too smart for your plot, you might have made a tiny mistake somewhere.
Why I fear the ocean.
So, the Emperor gives up on turning Luke. He sits there curbstomping Luke with lightning for several minutes. Finally Vader intervenes, get zapped for like 3 or 4 seconds tops, and he's dead, yet Luke has no obvious ill effects, despite Vader being much more powerful in the force.
Now, Luke is a young guy, Vader is in a suit to keep him alive, so I can buy that. What I can't really buy is the redemption thing.
Vader, who had no real expectation of death (though he probably new it wasn't particularly safe), intervened to save his son. Not some random guy, not the rebels fighting on Endor, but his son, the one guy in the universe who he was probably most emotionally attached to. From a guy who 5 minutes ago was telling that same son to kill him.
That's a redemption? So all it takes to completely redeem yourself for billions of deaths is to show a tiny fragment of human emotion?
Lets see, Vader in his life had killed an entire village of relatively innocent people because one of them had killed his mom, was complicit in the murder of the entire jedi order, personally murdered a bunch of 6 year olds, killed an entire planet full of people, and likely killed tons of people off screen. And one moment of intervention to keep his most favorite person in the universe from getting killed redeems all that?
I can only imagine the conversations with Leia if he'd survived. "Leia, remember that time I killed everyone and everything you ever knew and loved? Sorry that was kind of a dick move, didn't know you were my daughter, won't happen again."
I don't recall Luke using a Force Choke in the movies so I assume you're going by the EU. In which case, the Jedi could have easily held Palpatine in prison using ysalamiri. Or they could have severed him from the Force like they tried to do with the Exile in KOTOR 2.
Going by the movies - if the rule is that "no prison can hold a Jedi/Sith", then why does Vader handcuff Luke before bringing him to the Emperor in RotJ? And if you need Palps to stop shooting lightning, how about cutting off his hands? Or freeze him in carbonite.
The reason Mace gives for wanting to summarily execute Palpatine (which is different from a Republic execution following trial and due process) isn't that Palpatine will attack them physically (Mace has already defeated Palpatine in physical combat), it's that Palpatine has too much control over the Senate and the courts.
Mace isn't just saying that Palpatine is corrupt and untrustworthy, he's basically saying the entire Republic is corrupt and untrustworthy. If Mace is willing to summarily execute the Chancellor, what is there to suggest he wouldn't do the same to the Vice Chancellor? Or pro-Palpatine Senators? Or pro-Palpatine judges? Or pro-Palpatine civilians?
Beginning of ROTJ, he does it to couple of Jabba's pig guards.
edit: beaten.
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To me, the movies never wanted you to think Anakin Skywalker = Darth Vader. Instead, the movies want you to view Darth Vader as this, well, evil entity that has taken control of Anakin Skywalker. Fairly often they talk about how the Dark Side is a corrupting influence. While this doesn't absolve Anakin of his crimes, if he was, well, possessed in a manner of speaking, by the Dark Side, then he could very well be redeemed (in that he defeats that corruption and frees himself of it) simply by saving Luke.
But, if Vader had survived ROTJ, his "redemption" wouldn't have prevented him from being tried and executed for a shit-ton of war crimes and atrocities.
Rigorous Scholarship
The thing is, Phantom Menace establishes the fact that the Republic is already fairly factitious and eager to split. Why Lucas just didn't go with a civil war scenario baffles me.
The real problem though is that the prequels are kind of bad at making anakin a sympathetic character who is corrupted. Dude's a douchebag since Episode 2 began.
The Jedi never managed to actually sever the Exile from the Force. I don't know if there are other examples of separation, but the Exile's disconnect was brought on by her own experiences, being involved in things so horrible and detrimental to life that she needed to be broken off from the Force.
Luke couldn't beat Vader without going dark side, and the Emperor wanted him intact. Carbonite freezing was also untested, Fett was all antsy that Solo might not survive, and Solo himself was just to test the system for Luke.
I'm throwing my hat into the ring for "you guys are over thinking everything". Jedi aren't supposed to be evil or stupid, they're just the worst written things in a horribly written set of movies.
I still choose to pretend that Jedi are wandering ex-sheriff types in a space western, like Clint Eastwood with a sword, completely decentralized and the PT/EU never happened. Sometimes authors just don't know whats best for their own works.
Gamorreans. This should probably be on a list of things one shouldn't know.
Like lightsaber fighting styles and tactics?
I agree the Jedi aren't supposed to be as unsympathetic as they are. I'm sure there were lots of good Jedi running around just helping to save drowning kittens and stuff.
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure we see Jedi other than Qui-Gon (when he saves Jar Jar from Boss Nass) performing, or even being inclined to perform, any random acts of do-goodery. That's a little weird for a group that's supposed to be the galaxy's guardians of all that is good and just. Anakin's a better person before he becomes a Jedi, he offers to help Qui-Gon fix the ship, and then offers up his pod and racing services, with no thought of personal gain.
Nonetheless, they do come off as such.
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This ought to be fun
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Maybe we are now, what with the extensive EU to back up the image of the peaceful jedi warrior-monk policing the known galaxy.
At the time RotJ came out though, there was only one other dude you had seen using the force to choke people, and none of those people got back up afterwards.
I think the big thing is he went entirely the wrong direction with it. It would have been better if she told him, and he goes kind of blank and sits down, and she starts talking fast, and there's a definite feeling of "Is he gonna be mad, does he need time", and she's worried. And then this big grin splits his face and he goes "I'm gonna be a dad?!"
(or something, I dunno)
Point being, he really does love her, he wants to be a family man, and he's still immature and doesn't think things through.
Poor actor direction.
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Meh. The novelization by Stover is awesome anyway.
And I think they should remake episode 4, 5, 6. They got the technology, and can even change the storylines.