Wookieepedia (and stuff in KOTOR) says Tatooine has been inhabited and abandoned multiple times in the past. Most recently by a corporation's failed resource extraction operation. For all intents and purposes it was abandoned and unoccupied and then taken by the hutts. So I guess it's up for grabs whether it's actually part of the Republic during TPM (does abandonment imply forfeiture of ownership?
I know no one wants to read big walls of text, but my ultra long post partially addresses this. Tatooine was effectively abandoned by the Republic, and then taken up by the Hutts. So you'd need to determine whether the Hutts are squatters or legitimate owners.
It sort of like expecting a police officer to come out to Midway Island to investigate a noise complaint.
To expect them to send a Jedi, and for that Jedi to fix the problem is like expecting Washington to send a SWAT team chaplain to investigate those complaints, and then leave Midway after a week or a month, never to have them return.
Don't they have some fat senator who bribes his fellow senators and everyone else?
As for the issue of currency, it's possible that Republican credits are perfectly usable currency on many worlds, but on Tatooine, it's like trying to buy a loaf of bread with a US Currency Bond.
I'm confident that if you actually tried to buy a $1-2 loaf of bread with a $1000+ bond your success rate will be 100%.
We definitely covered this exhaustively in past pages too, it just makes no sense. Presumably the Queen has a small fortune stashed on her yacht and can grossly overpay for this part. If someone walks into your store with Euros or whatever and offers to pay you double or whatever, you're going to go for that deal.
The only realistic limit is if the margin is too small. That is, you try 5 euros for the $2 loaf of bread. Sure that's multiple times the value but meh, going out of your way to exchange a couple bucks is a hassle. I think we can safely assume a starship component costs at least as much as car parts today and most likely more along the lines of airplanes or yachts.
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David_TA fashion yes-man is no good to me.Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I just watched the Phantom Edit and it's interesting. Definately a better movie than Phantom Menace, but there's obviously some problems beyond editing. Kinda amazing how wooden an excellent actor like Ewan McGregor can be made to sound.
But mostly I came away from it thinking that Qui Gon is a bit of a dick and that I'd happily forgotten the "The Force impregnated Anakins mother" aspect of the story.
I just watched the Phantom Edit and it's interesting. Definately a better movie than Phantom Menace, but there's obviously some problems beyond editing. Kinda amazing how wooden an excellent actor like Ewan McGregor can be made to sound.
But mostly I came away from it thinking that Qui Gon is a bit of a dick and that I'd happily forgotten the "The Force impregnated Anakins mother" aspect of the story.
But we know that isn't true; or at least have reason to doubt. It's not for nothing that Palpatine spoke of Plagueis' oddball abilities in the Force, or, as he says, "he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create... life.". As for why Anakin was born to a slave woman on a dump of a world like Tatooine? Well... I think the only theory that comes close to explaning that is that he wanted him far away from Palpatine.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
I just watched the Phantom Edit and it's interesting. Definately a better movie than Phantom Menace, but there's obviously some problems beyond editing. Kinda amazing how wooden an excellent actor like Ewan McGregor can be made to sound.
But mostly I came away from it thinking that Qui Gon is a bit of a dick and that I'd happily forgotten the "The Force impregnated Anakins mother" aspect of the story.
But we know that isn't true; or at least have reason to doubt. It's not for nothing that Palpatine spoke of Plagueis' oddball abilities in the Force, or, as he says, "he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create... life.". As for why Anakin was born to a slave woman on a dump of a world like Tatooine? Well... I think the only theory that comes close to explaning that is that he wanted him far away from Palpatine.
That, or he wanted his force spawned prodigy kept out of the Jedi's hands. Darth P. could have planned to stop by Tattooine in a couple more years to pick up his pissed off hormonally charged slave boy and train him as the ultimate Sith weapon, only to wind up getting offed by Palpatine before he could do more then set his plan in motion.
That, or he wanted his force spawned prodigy kept out of the Jedi's hands. Darth P. could have planned to stop by Tattooine in a couple more years to pick up his pissed off hormonally charged slave boy and train him as the ultimate Sith weapon, only to wind up getting offed by Palpatine before he could do more then set his plan in motion.
Don't they have some fat senator who bribes his fellow senators and everyone else?
As for the issue of currency, it's possible that Republican credits are perfectly usable currency on many worlds, but on Tatooine, it's like trying to buy a loaf of bread with a US Currency Bond.
I'm confident that if you actually tried to buy a $1-2 loaf of bread with a $1000+ bond your success rate will be 100%.
Okay then, how about an aircraft turbine that cost marginally less than your currency bonds?
C'mon, please not again, it really makes no sense. Even she only overpays a little the high price of the item alone warrants some effort on his part. Make the sale and have to exchange currency backed by a stable, reliable government or don't make the sale and keep my part on the backwater world where such opportunities don't come by often.
Plus, I think we can safely assume when a monarch stocks their personal escape yacht there's a small fortune in hard currency on board. So it's not going to be a marginal difference but a $texas bonus for going to the effort of exchanging the cash.
Don't they have some fat senator who bribes his fellow senators and everyone else?
As for the issue of currency, it's possible that Republican credits are perfectly usable currency on many worlds, but on Tatooine, it's like trying to buy a loaf of bread with a US Currency Bond.
I'm confident that if you actually tried to buy a $1-2 loaf of bread with a $1000+ bond your success rate will be 100%.
Okay then, how about an aircraft turbine that cost marginally less than your currency bonds?
With an aircraft turbine you're dealing with such a large sum of money that even if you're only overpaying by 10%, the vendor could hire someone to handle the currency conversion for him
Tatooine uses many different forms of currencies according to Wookiepedia. Because the town they are in is host to the largest podrace in the galaxy, it would make sense for there to be a money changer in the area somewhere and just take the hit with an unfair exchange rate. They don't even have to have Watto do the money changing.
Don't they have some fat senator who bribes his fellow senators and everyone else?
As for the issue of currency, it's possible that Republican credits are perfectly usable currency on many worlds, but on Tatooine, it's like trying to buy a loaf of bread with a US Currency Bond.
I'm confident that if you actually tried to buy a $1-2 loaf of bread with a $1000+ bond your success rate will be 100%.
Okay then, how about an aircraft turbine that cost marginally less than your currency bonds?
With an aircraft turbine you're dealing with such a large sum of money that even if you're only overpaying by 10%, the vendor could hire someone to handle the currency conversion for him
But if you were just barely covering it, the seller might not be so inclined.
Wookieepedia (and stuff in KOTOR) says Tatooine has been inhabited and abandoned multiple times in the past. Most recently by a corporation's failed resource extraction operation. For all intents and purposes it was abandoned and unoccupied and then taken by the hutts. So I guess it's up for grabs whether it's actually part of the Republic during TPM (does abandonment imply forfeiture of ownership?
I know no one wants to read big walls of text, but my ultra long post partially addresses this. Tatooine was effectively abandoned by the Republic, and then taken up by the Hutts. So you'd need to determine whether the Hutts are squatters or legitimate owners.
It sort of like expecting a police officer to come out to Midway Island to investigate a noise complaint.
If a cop is buying a Big Mac and sees me raping a girl in the bathroom, I'd hope he arrests me. Even though "stopping rape" isn't the reason he went to McDonald's in the first place.
And even "effectively abandoned" places are still subject to the laws of the central governments to which they belong. There are neighborhoods in the US where the de facto rulers are street gangs. There are "camps" where the de facto rulers are militias. What stops the cops from going in and cleaning up isn't a lack of authority, but a lack of will.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
I don't think you could just END slavery on a planet with the numbers the Jedi Council had. I mean you could try but it would take a constant presence and occupation which would make it much like Iraq or something.
They certainly could have rescued Anakin's mom and made a run for it. Once back in republic space what could Watto do? File a complaint?
Possibly turn the whole planet against Jedi so the next time one tried to land on Tattooine he'd be met with derision and hostility.
Because slaves mysteriously vanishing never happens on Tattooine or something they would care about for more than five seconds even if they knew a random jedi did it?
They mentioned explosives in the head as a justification in the movie though I never really got how that would have actually worked.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
They certainly could have rescued Anakin's mom and made a run for it. Once back in republic space what could Watto do? File a complaint?
Possibly turn the whole planet against Jedi so the next time one tried to land on Tattooine he'd be met with derision and hostility.
Because slaves mysteriously vanishing never happens on Tattooine or something they would care about for more than five seconds even if they knew a random jedi did it?
They mentioned explosives in the head as a justification in the movie though I never really got how that would have actually worked.
Well yeah except when a Jedi does something to fuck with the status quo people are gonna take notice and care.
I mean really you might as well suggest Jedi try running the whole galaxy at that point.
People aren't going to take notice of a slave theft in a wretched hive of scum and villainy, I'm not talking about starting an uprising
The bomb in head I guess seems to be a reasonable macguffin, I remember that now
I think they would when it's a Jedi messing with a lucrative business. I mean, what's to stop them from doing it again? Or coming back to end the practice altogether? It would be like the Swiss doing a black ops raid in Somalia.
They certainly could have rescued Anakin's mom and made a run for it. Once back in republic space what could Watto do? File a complaint?
Possibly turn the whole planet against Jedi so the next time one tried to land on Tattooine he'd be met with derision and hostility.
Because slaves mysteriously vanishing never happens on Tattooine or something they would care about for more than five seconds even if they knew a random jedi did it?
They mentioned explosives in the head as a justification in the movie though I never really got how that would have actually worked.
Well yeah except when a Jedi does something to fuck with the status quo people are gonna take notice and care.
I mean really you might as well suggest Jedi try running the whole galaxy at that point.
After all, didn't Palpatine basically publicly announce the purging of the Jedi?
All the Star Wars literature seems to portray the Jedi as this much beloved, sacred, glorious warrior monk order who were treasured by the galaxy. Meanwhile...
- They were incredibly politicized by being turned into the entire Republican officer corps in one of the biggest wars in the galaxy's history. Which is great for one side, but not as great for opposing side...the Tsar's cossacks had a lot of enemies as well.
- They're famed for utterly destroying people who stand in the way of their goals (be it justice or serving the Republic or whatever). Again, popular if they're on your side, not so popular on the other side.
And the whole galaxy didn't seem to rise up in a huge revolt of righteous indignation when 99% of the Jedi were wiped out, from what I can tell. It doesn't seem like everyone deeply cared for them. It took a few years of tyranny to do that--which, frankly, strikes me as being a lot better an excuse. Tyranny versus the persecution of a superpower mind-reading cult.
I suspect a Jedi showing to fuck with some culture's status quo wouldn't go over all that much better than an Imperial or Rebel agency doing the same thing. Except the Jedi could chop people's arms off or use mind control, rather than just shoot them.
Wookieepedia (and stuff in KOTOR) says Tatooine has been inhabited and abandoned multiple times in the past. Most recently by a corporation's failed resource extraction operation. For all intents and purposes it was abandoned and unoccupied and then taken by the hutts. So I guess it's up for grabs whether it's actually part of the Republic during TPM (does abandonment imply forfeiture of ownership?
I know no one wants to read big walls of text, but my ultra long post partially addresses this. Tatooine was effectively abandoned by the Republic, and then taken up by the Hutts. So you'd need to determine whether the Hutts are squatters or legitimate owners.
It sort of like expecting a police officer to come out to Midway Island to investigate a noise complaint.
If a cop is buying a Big Mac and sees me raping a girl in the bathroom, I'd hope he arrests me. Even though "stopping rape" isn't the reason he went to McDonald's in the first place.
And even "effectively abandoned" places are still subject to the laws of the central governments to which they belong. There are neighborhoods in the US where the de facto rulers are street gangs. There are "camps" where the de facto rulers are militias. What stops the cops from going in and cleaning up isn't a lack of authority, but a lack of will.
This is why I used a noise violation and not a murder. The "crime" is basically minor. Something a police officer would not take the time to fly out to check on because one person isn't going to be able to make a difference. And a cop on vacation there is just going to say "so, they're loud...and?"
Slavery is accepted on Tatooine; and however much you dislike slavery, there are numerous cultures that did accept it (slavery also exists on a spectrum).
This is also why I picked Midway Island in my analogy. It is in the middle of bumblefuck nowhere. People may know about it, but you're not going to fly a meter maid out there to enforce restrictions on what residents have been undertaking for for decades (if not centuries).
Alternative analogy: Say pot is decriminalized and a coast guard officer's car breaks down in front of your house in the boonies. And then he makes a citizen's arrest because he sees you own a bong.
Alternative alternative analogy: say slavery is effectively decriminalized and a jedi's ship breaks down on a planet in the galactic boonies. Then the jedi chops some people up because he sees they own slaves.
I just watched the Phantom Edit and it's interesting. Definately a better movie than Phantom Menace, but there's obviously some problems beyond editing. Kinda amazing how wooden an excellent actor like Ewan McGregor can be made to sound.
But mostly I came away from it thinking that Qui Gon is a bit of a dick and that I'd happily forgotten the "The Force impregnated Anakins mother" aspect of the story.
But we know that isn't true; or at least have reason to doubt. It's not for nothing that Palpatine spoke of Plagueis' oddball abilities in the Force, or, as he says, "he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create... life.". As for why Anakin was born to a slave woman on a dump of a world like Tatooine? Well... I think the only theory that comes close to explaning that is that he wanted him far away from Palpatine.
That, or he wanted his force spawned prodigy kept out of the Jedi's hands. Darth P. could have planned to stop by Tattooine in a couple more years to pick up his pissed off hormonally charged slave boy and train him as the ultimate Sith weapon, only to wind up getting offed by Palpatine before he could do more then set his plan in motion.
Why would the Jedi be a factor at all? The Sith have been hiding for centuries, with Palpatine living so close by to them, and even being in the same room as them and they didn't have a clue. As Yoda said, the Dark Side clouded everything. The Jedi's ability to see into the Force was "diminished". If Palpatine could take Maul as a boy and train him into the weapon he was, why couldn't Plagueis do that with Anakin? Maybe Plagueis saw his own death coming - after all, there can be only two. Maybe he decided to hide this super weapon before Palpatine could learn of it.
Although Palpatine did seem to guess at Anakin's origins.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
Wookieepedia (and stuff in KOTOR) says Tatooine has been inhabited and abandoned multiple times in the past. Most recently by a corporation's failed resource extraction operation. For all intents and purposes it was abandoned and unoccupied and then taken by the hutts. So I guess it's up for grabs whether it's actually part of the Republic during TPM (does abandonment imply forfeiture of ownership?
I know no one wants to read big walls of text, but my ultra long post partially addresses this. Tatooine was effectively abandoned by the Republic, and then taken up by the Hutts. So you'd need to determine whether the Hutts are squatters or legitimate owners.
It sort of like expecting a police officer to come out to Midway Island to investigate a noise complaint.
If a cop is buying a Big Mac and sees me raping a girl in the bathroom, I'd hope he arrests me. Even though "stopping rape" isn't the reason he went to McDonald's in the first place.
And even "effectively abandoned" places are still subject to the laws of the central governments to which they belong. There are neighborhoods in the US where the de facto rulers are street gangs. There are "camps" where the de facto rulers are militias. What stops the cops from going in and cleaning up isn't a lack of authority, but a lack of will.
This is why I used a noise violation and not a murder. The "crime" is basically minor. Something a police officer would not take the time to fly out to check on because one person isn't going to be able to make a difference. And a cop on vacation there is just going to say "so, they're loud...and?"
That works if Qui-Gon considers slavery to be just a "minor" offense. So much for the "compassionate" Qui-Gon, in that case.
"So you're a slave... and?"
BTW - what if the cop doesn't think rape's that big a deal either? What if the cop is Bobby Knight, who once said "If rape is inevitable, you might as well sit back and enjoy it"?
Slavery is accepted on Tatooine; and however much you dislike slavery, there are numerous cultures that did accept it (slavery also exists on a spectrum).
There are places where rape is accepted too, both in Star Wars and in America (prisons). Should prison guards just turn a blind eye because it's part of "prison culture"?
This is also why I picked Midway Island in my analogy. It is in the middle of bumblefuck nowhere. People may know about it, but you're not going to fly a meter maid out there to enforce restrictions on what residents have been undertaking for for decades (if not centuries).
I agree Qui-Gon wasn't there to free slaves. He was there to get a hyperdrive engine.
Yet he freed Anakin. Why? Qui-Gon could have easily won only the hyperdrive in the podrace gamble, yet he chose to include Anakin in the bet as well. Was Anakin some kind of expert necessary to the installation and operation of hyperdrive engines? Was Anakin some kind of Nibbler from Futurama, and they needed his poop in order to fuel the engines? Why does Qui-Gon need Anakin, to the point where he's willing to cheat Watto in order to get him?
The fact is, Qui-Gon didn't need to free Anakin at all. He WANTED to free Anakin, because Anakin could use The Force. And in order to get what he wanted, Qui-Gon was willing to cheat and defraud Watto.
Why didn't Qui-Gon free Anakin's mom? He didn't want to. He had no use for her. She wasn't some "Force Nexus" with Jedi potential, so she got left behind to be raped to death.
People aren't going to take notice of a slave theft in a wretched hive of scum and villainy, I'm not talking about starting an uprising
The bomb in head I guess seems to be a reasonable macguffin, I remember that now
I think they would when it's a Jedi messing with a lucrative business. I mean, what's to stop them from doing it again? Or coming back to end the practice altogether? It would be like the Swiss doing a black ops raid in Somalia.
There's no reason anyone would even have to know who took out Watto, let alone whether that who was a Jedi or not. All Qui-Gon had to do was stuff Watto in a sack and take him back to Coruscant or wherever for trial.
At most, anyone who sees it happen just assumes that Watto's late on a debt to Jabba or something, and he's got a date with a Rancor.
I'm finding it hard to buy the idea of the whole society getting all huffy over 1 shady shopowner getting taken out. This is the same society that watches Greedo get gunned down, and Obi-wan chop off that dude's arm, without batting an eye.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
You know, Fate of the Jedi touches on the slavery thing, hilariously enough.
I'm not sure where they're going with it. But it looks like alot of planets are getting ready to outright revolt and leave the Republic over it.
Daala, of course, will have none of that shit. She's all for slavery if it lets her keep power.
The books make it pretty clear that yes, people understand slavery is bad. The Jedi in particular, don't like it. But that in the Republic, it's cloaked under legal treaties that make it difficult, if not impossible, to legally abolish. A certain sense of apathy from people on other planets, in the core sectors, also doesn't help either.
So the only other alternative is to essentially break the law, become an outlaw (And a hunted man/woman, given that the people who support slavery tend to be pretty evil, and will gladly put a hit out on you.), and smuggle slaves out of their environment.
The Hutt's in particular have a pretty tricky treaty. They tricked some primitive culture on the verge of entering into their space age into believing they were gods 25,000 years ago, and essentially enslaved the entire species. It doesn't help that the species elders tend to view this as a good thing (For some screwed up reasons.).
I'm not sure where they're going with it. But it looks like alot of planets are getting ready to outright revolt and leave the Republic over it.
Daala, of course, will have none of that shit. She's all for slavery if it lets her keep power.
Her desire for power aside, I'm pretty sure the Republic (and is successors) have no intention of letting planets leave its federation for any reason whatsoever, slavery or not, without a fight (or without a major pretense, such as the agreement that stops the war). Anyone who was at the top would be required to pull the overall "Unity or Death" political line. Officially, they may have that right, but that's just bullshit.
This is just based on what I've seen though. Could be quite different.
That works if Qui-Gon considers slavery to be just a "minor" offense. So much for the "compassionate" Qui-Gon, in that case.
"So you're a slave... and?"
Now that's just downright wrong. I doubt a Jedi would consider slavery something minor, something below their notice. It makes more sense that he is aware that slavery exists on Tatooine - it exists throughout the Outer Rim, I would imagine. Even if he didn't, when choosing a location to land with a leaking hyperdrive, he gets cursory information from the computer that Obi-Wan is looking at. Well, he visibly reads that it's controlled by the Hutts, for one. If he didn't know much else about it, wouldn't he take the time to do so while on their way there?
He seemed ready with an answer when Anakin asked if he was on Tatooine to end slavery.
Yet he freed Anakin. Why? Qui-Gon could have easily won only the hyperdrive in the podrace gamble, yet he chose to include Anakin in the bet as well. Was Anakin some kind of expert necessary to the installation and operation of hyperdrive engines? Was Anakin some kind of Nibbler from Futurama, and they needed his poop in order to fuel the engines? Why does Qui-Gon need Anakin, to the point where he's willing to cheat Watto in order to get him?
The fact is, Qui-Gon didn't need to free Anakin at all. He WANTED to free Anakin, because Anakin could use The Force. And in order to get what he wanted, Qui-Gon was willing to cheat and defraud Watto.
Qui-Gon may not have needed to free Anakin, but in Anakin he'd seen something that the Order could not pass up. A boy with such incredible power... might grow up resentful, angry and fearful (which he did anyway, but that's hardly Qui-Gon's fault). He might learn something of his potential, seeing as it's already manifesting itself in his racing, and after learning as much as he can, use it to his advantage. He may commit murder, theft, whatever. Look at it through the Jedi's eyes - they take infants from their parents because they can't be allowed to grow up with all emotions accessible and possibly become a Dark Jedi and a threat.
As Yoda says, "Fear is a path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering." This is why the Jedi are the cold, emotional robots we get to see in the prequels. Maybe they're wrong, as we see Luke grows up just fine, though sorely tested by Palpatine and his father. But that's how things are at that point in time. Qui-Gon comes across a boy with the potential to become more powerful than the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. Was he to leave him there? No, of course he had to get him out of slavery and into the Order as fast as possible. The Council disagreed, but it's partly due to Qui-Gon's death that Anakin turned out the way he did. After all, as has been pointed out, Obi-Wan is hardly the ideal instructor for Anakin, being overly critical and irritable with everything he does.
As I said in my previous post, Palpatine seemed to guess at Anakin's origins, and because Anakin is as powerful as he is, he's likely right. For some reason, Plagueis had Anakin created, implanted into Shmi's womb and allowed to grow up on a shitty little system far away from anyone who could recognise his potential. What if Palpatine had found Anakin before Qui-Gon? It's not Qui-Gon's fault that he died before he could train Anakin. As Dooku said, he "knew all about the corruption in the Senate". Qui-Gon would have kept Anakin far away from Palpatine, and Anakin might never have fallen to the Dark Side. Perhaps he then may have defeated the Sith and brought balance to the Force in a different way... depending on your interpretation of this "balance".
Why didn't Qui-Gon free Anakin's mom? He didn't want to. He had no use for her. She wasn't some "Force Nexus" with Jedi potential, so she got left behind to be raped to death.
Oh, come on! That's completely ridiculous, and you know it. He did try to free Shmi, but Watto refused, saying, "no pod is worth two slaves, not by a long shot!". It was of far greater import that he free Anakin and get him into training, he could have returned to liberate his mother at any time. Qui-Gon had no intention of training Anakin, remember, until the Council told him that he wouldn't be trained and, as he told Obi-Wan, he would do as he must. If he was training Anakin, he would recognise the boy's link to his mother, as the Council did, and return to Tatooine to free her. Obi-Wan had no connection to her and was far more by the book than Qui-Gon - attachment is forbidden. There's a reason he never tried to help Anakin free her - I would say if Anakin did ever request it, Obi-Wan would shoot him down with the Jedi's dictum of no attachment.
He needed to get Anakin away from Watto, and just trying to convince him into possibly losing him in a bet was difficult. It's very doubtful that Watto would be willing to possibly lose two slaves, never mind his star mechanic/pod racing pilot. I really don't understand why people say that Qui-Gon is not compassionate. He spends half the film with his hand on someone's shoulder, saving that annoying jackrabbit Jar-Jar from being "punished". Boss Nass' smile is supposed to indicate that this punishment was not going to be pleasant. Jar-Jar was a useless tag-along character who got in their way frequently, yet Qui-Gon saw the worth of his life so much so that he risked detection at every point of his stealthy approach to Theed, and risking attention on Tatooine. When Obi-Wan asks for forgiveness, as pointed out by Raynor, he doesn't criticise the younger man as Obi-Wan would later do to Anakin, but smiles and responds in a modest and humble manner.
Obi-Wan says at one point that they've picked up "yet another pathetic life-form". How many useless people does he pick up on their missions, protecting them from harm as he does with Jar-Jar? He stretches the rule of no attachment by caring for people who cannot care for themselves. Old Obi-Wan, with his former master's example before him, and having communed with Qui-Gon's spirit for so long, is so much more like his master than he is as a younger man. The difference between prequels Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon is that while Obi-Wan is the consummate Jedi of his era, he also exemplifies the problems with the Jedi of his era.
Qui-Gon is the Jedi every Jedi should be, as old Obi-Wan was.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
Alternatively, the movies were poorly written and Lucas remembered that Anakin had a mother during the second movie when he was looking for a way to "darken" him
Alternatively, the movies were poorly written and Lucas remembered that Anakin had a mother during the second movie when he was looking for a way to "darken" him
Well, yes. Qui-Gon is my favourite character of the prequels because he's so interestingly different, but there's nothing to account for Lucas' shitty writing and direction.
Rohan on
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
Alternatively, the movies were poorly written and Lucas remembered that Anakin had a mother during the second movie when he was looking for a way to "darken" him
Well, yes. Qui-Gon is my favourite character of the prequels because he's so interestingly different, but there's nothing to account for Lucas' shitty writing and direction.
Maybe it's been a while since I've seen the movie, but I think you might be making a stretch at calling him 'interestingly different'. There was nothing interesting about his character. You can blame Lucas for shitty writing and direction, but in the end Qui-Gon is Lucas' character/creation and given the amount of control Lucas had, he was portrayed in the movie according to Lucas' vision of him.
I always agreed with the RedLetterMediaReview on how Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really should have been one character (Obi-Wan). I don't know if TPM would have been a better movie overall for it, but at least the wooden acting would have been reduced by one.
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L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
Alternatively, the movies were poorly written and Lucas remembered that Anakin had a mother during the second movie when he was looking for a way to "darken" him
Well, yes. Qui-Gon is my favourite character of the prequels because he's so interestingly different, but there's nothing to account for Lucas' shitty writing and direction.
Alternatively, the movies were poorly written and Lucas remembered that Anakin had a mother during the second movie when he was looking for a way to "darken" him
Well, yes. Qui-Gon is my favourite character of the prequels because he's so interestingly different, but there's nothing to account for Lucas' shitty writing and direction.
I'm honestly wracking my brain to think of what makes Qui-Gon unique. He stands out less than that guy who was in charge of Amidala's security detail.
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Alternatively, the movies were poorly written and Lucas remembered that Anakin had a mother during the second movie when he was looking for a way to "darken" him
Well, yes. Qui-Gon is my favourite character of the prequels because he's so interestingly different, but there's nothing to account for Lucas' shitty writing and direction.
I'm honestly wracking my brain to think of what makes Qui-Gon unique. He stands out less than that guy who was in charge of Amidala's security detail.
You mean that one guy who seemed kind of competent?
Alternatively, the movies were poorly written and Lucas remembered that Anakin had a mother during the second movie when he was looking for a way to "darken" him
Well, yes. Qui-Gon is my favourite character of the prequels because he's so interestingly different, but there's nothing to account for Lucas' shitty writing and direction.
I'm honestly wracking my brain to think of what makes Qui-Gon unique. He stands out less than that guy who was in charge of Amidala's security detail.
Alternatively, the movies were poorly written and Lucas remembered that Anakin had a mother during the second movie when he was looking for a way to "darken" him
Well, yes. Qui-Gon is my favourite character of the prequels because he's so interestingly different, but there's nothing to account for Lucas' shitty writing and direction.
I'm honestly wracking my brain to think of what makes Qui-Gon unique. He stands out less than that guy who was in charge of Amidala's security detail.
Qui-Gon is interesting cause he is Liam Neeson. Although I'd like to say the same for Mace Windu but I feel that is just black dude in Jedi clothing.
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
The difference is, some people heard Liam Neeson say Qui-Gon is a good character, and some didn't.
Liam Neeson's voice will convince anyone of anything.
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To expect them to send a Jedi, and for that Jedi to fix the problem is like expecting Washington to send a SWAT team chaplain to investigate those complaints, and then leave Midway after a week or a month, never to have them return.
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I'm confident that if you actually tried to buy a $1-2 loaf of bread with a $1000+ bond your success rate will be 100%.
We definitely covered this exhaustively in past pages too, it just makes no sense. Presumably the Queen has a small fortune stashed on her yacht and can grossly overpay for this part. If someone walks into your store with Euros or whatever and offers to pay you double or whatever, you're going to go for that deal.
The only realistic limit is if the margin is too small. That is, you try 5 euros for the $2 loaf of bread. Sure that's multiple times the value but meh, going out of your way to exchange a couple bucks is a hassle. I think we can safely assume a starship component costs at least as much as car parts today and most likely more along the lines of airplanes or yachts.
But mostly I came away from it thinking that Qui Gon is a bit of a dick and that I'd happily forgotten the "The Force impregnated Anakins mother" aspect of the story.
But we know that isn't true; or at least have reason to doubt. It's not for nothing that Palpatine spoke of Plagueis' oddball abilities in the Force, or, as he says, "he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create... life.". As for why Anakin was born to a slave woman on a dump of a world like Tatooine? Well... I think the only theory that comes close to explaning that is that he wanted him far away from Palpatine.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
That, or he wanted his force spawned prodigy kept out of the Jedi's hands. Darth P. could have planned to stop by Tattooine in a couple more years to pick up his pissed off hormonally charged slave boy and train him as the ultimate Sith weapon, only to wind up getting offed by Palpatine before he could do more then set his plan in motion.
Okay then, how about an aircraft turbine that cost marginally less than your currency bonds?
now im at the end of season 3, damnit, this is a good series I cant just watch one episdoe
Plus, I think we can safely assume when a monarch stocks their personal escape yacht there's a small fortune in hard currency on board. So it's not going to be a marginal difference but a $texas bonus for going to the effort of exchanging the cash.
With an aircraft turbine you're dealing with such a large sum of money that even if you're only overpaying by 10%, the vendor could hire someone to handle the currency conversion for him
But if you were just barely covering it, the seller might not be so inclined.
If a cop is buying a Big Mac and sees me raping a girl in the bathroom, I'd hope he arrests me. Even though "stopping rape" isn't the reason he went to McDonald's in the first place.
And even "effectively abandoned" places are still subject to the laws of the central governments to which they belong. There are neighborhoods in the US where the de facto rulers are street gangs. There are "camps" where the de facto rulers are militias. What stops the cops from going in and cleaning up isn't a lack of authority, but a lack of will.
Possibly turn the whole planet against Jedi so the next time one tried to land on Tattooine he'd be met with derision and hostility.
Because slaves mysteriously vanishing never happens on Tattooine or something they would care about for more than five seconds even if they knew a random jedi did it?
They mentioned explosives in the head as a justification in the movie though I never really got how that would have actually worked.
Well yeah except when a Jedi does something to fuck with the status quo people are gonna take notice and care.
I mean really you might as well suggest Jedi try running the whole galaxy at that point.
The bomb in head I guess seems to be a reasonable macguffin, I remember that now
I think they would when it's a Jedi messing with a lucrative business. I mean, what's to stop them from doing it again? Or coming back to end the practice altogether? It would be like the Swiss doing a black ops raid in Somalia.
After all, didn't Palpatine basically publicly announce the purging of the Jedi?
All the Star Wars literature seems to portray the Jedi as this much beloved, sacred, glorious warrior monk order who were treasured by the galaxy. Meanwhile...
- They were incredibly politicized by being turned into the entire Republican officer corps in one of the biggest wars in the galaxy's history. Which is great for one side, but not as great for opposing side...the Tsar's cossacks had a lot of enemies as well.
- They're famed for utterly destroying people who stand in the way of their goals (be it justice or serving the Republic or whatever). Again, popular if they're on your side, not so popular on the other side.
And the whole galaxy didn't seem to rise up in a huge revolt of righteous indignation when 99% of the Jedi were wiped out, from what I can tell. It doesn't seem like everyone deeply cared for them. It took a few years of tyranny to do that--which, frankly, strikes me as being a lot better an excuse. Tyranny versus the persecution of a superpower mind-reading cult.
I suspect a Jedi showing to fuck with some culture's status quo wouldn't go over all that much better than an Imperial or Rebel agency doing the same thing. Except the Jedi could chop people's arms off or use mind control, rather than just shoot them.
This is why I used a noise violation and not a murder. The "crime" is basically minor. Something a police officer would not take the time to fly out to check on because one person isn't going to be able to make a difference. And a cop on vacation there is just going to say "so, they're loud...and?"
Slavery is accepted on Tatooine; and however much you dislike slavery, there are numerous cultures that did accept it (slavery also exists on a spectrum).
This is also why I picked Midway Island in my analogy. It is in the middle of bumblefuck nowhere. People may know about it, but you're not going to fly a meter maid out there to enforce restrictions on what residents have been undertaking for for decades (if not centuries).
Alternative analogy: Say pot is decriminalized and a coast guard officer's car breaks down in front of your house in the boonies. And then he makes a citizen's arrest because he sees you own a bong.
Alternative alternative analogy: say slavery is effectively decriminalized and a jedi's ship breaks down on a planet in the galactic boonies. Then the jedi chops some people up because he sees they own slaves.
Why would the Jedi be a factor at all? The Sith have been hiding for centuries, with Palpatine living so close by to them, and even being in the same room as them and they didn't have a clue. As Yoda said, the Dark Side clouded everything. The Jedi's ability to see into the Force was "diminished". If Palpatine could take Maul as a boy and train him into the weapon he was, why couldn't Plagueis do that with Anakin? Maybe Plagueis saw his own death coming - after all, there can be only two. Maybe he decided to hide this super weapon before Palpatine could learn of it.
Although Palpatine did seem to guess at Anakin's origins.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
That works if Qui-Gon considers slavery to be just a "minor" offense. So much for the "compassionate" Qui-Gon, in that case.
"So you're a slave... and?"
BTW - what if the cop doesn't think rape's that big a deal either? What if the cop is Bobby Knight, who once said "If rape is inevitable, you might as well sit back and enjoy it"?
There are places where rape is accepted too, both in Star Wars and in America (prisons). Should prison guards just turn a blind eye because it's part of "prison culture"?
I agree Qui-Gon wasn't there to free slaves. He was there to get a hyperdrive engine.
Yet he freed Anakin. Why? Qui-Gon could have easily won only the hyperdrive in the podrace gamble, yet he chose to include Anakin in the bet as well. Was Anakin some kind of expert necessary to the installation and operation of hyperdrive engines? Was Anakin some kind of Nibbler from Futurama, and they needed his poop in order to fuel the engines? Why does Qui-Gon need Anakin, to the point where he's willing to cheat Watto in order to get him?
The fact is, Qui-Gon didn't need to free Anakin at all. He WANTED to free Anakin, because Anakin could use The Force. And in order to get what he wanted, Qui-Gon was willing to cheat and defraud Watto.
Why didn't Qui-Gon free Anakin's mom? He didn't want to. He had no use for her. She wasn't some "Force Nexus" with Jedi potential, so she got left behind to be raped to death.
There's no reason anyone would even have to know who took out Watto, let alone whether that who was a Jedi or not. All Qui-Gon had to do was stuff Watto in a sack and take him back to Coruscant or wherever for trial.
At most, anyone who sees it happen just assumes that Watto's late on a debt to Jabba or something, and he's got a date with a Rancor.
I'm finding it hard to buy the idea of the whole society getting all huffy over 1 shady shopowner getting taken out. This is the same society that watches Greedo get gunned down, and Obi-wan chop off that dude's arm, without batting an eye.
I'm not sure where they're going with it. But it looks like alot of planets are getting ready to outright revolt and leave the Republic over it.
The books make it pretty clear that yes, people understand slavery is bad. The Jedi in particular, don't like it. But that in the Republic, it's cloaked under legal treaties that make it difficult, if not impossible, to legally abolish. A certain sense of apathy from people on other planets, in the core sectors, also doesn't help either.
So the only other alternative is to essentially break the law, become an outlaw (And a hunted man/woman, given that the people who support slavery tend to be pretty evil, and will gladly put a hit out on you.), and smuggle slaves out of their environment.
The Hutt's in particular have a pretty tricky treaty. They tricked some primitive culture on the verge of entering into their space age into believing they were gods 25,000 years ago, and essentially enslaved the entire species. It doesn't help that the species elders tend to view this as a good thing (For some screwed up reasons.).
Her desire for power aside, I'm pretty sure the Republic (and is successors) have no intention of letting planets leave its federation for any reason whatsoever, slavery or not, without a fight (or without a major pretense, such as the agreement that stops the war). Anyone who was at the top would be required to pull the overall "Unity or Death" political line. Officially, they may have that right, but that's just bullshit.
This is just based on what I've seen though. Could be quite different.
Now that's just downright wrong. I doubt a Jedi would consider slavery something minor, something below their notice. It makes more sense that he is aware that slavery exists on Tatooine - it exists throughout the Outer Rim, I would imagine. Even if he didn't, when choosing a location to land with a leaking hyperdrive, he gets cursory information from the computer that Obi-Wan is looking at. Well, he visibly reads that it's controlled by the Hutts, for one. If he didn't know much else about it, wouldn't he take the time to do so while on their way there?
He seemed ready with an answer when Anakin asked if he was on Tatooine to end slavery.
Qui-Gon may not have needed to free Anakin, but in Anakin he'd seen something that the Order could not pass up. A boy with such incredible power... might grow up resentful, angry and fearful (which he did anyway, but that's hardly Qui-Gon's fault). He might learn something of his potential, seeing as it's already manifesting itself in his racing, and after learning as much as he can, use it to his advantage. He may commit murder, theft, whatever. Look at it through the Jedi's eyes - they take infants from their parents because they can't be allowed to grow up with all emotions accessible and possibly become a Dark Jedi and a threat.
As Yoda says, "Fear is a path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering." This is why the Jedi are the cold, emotional robots we get to see in the prequels. Maybe they're wrong, as we see Luke grows up just fine, though sorely tested by Palpatine and his father. But that's how things are at that point in time. Qui-Gon comes across a boy with the potential to become more powerful than the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. Was he to leave him there? No, of course he had to get him out of slavery and into the Order as fast as possible. The Council disagreed, but it's partly due to Qui-Gon's death that Anakin turned out the way he did. After all, as has been pointed out, Obi-Wan is hardly the ideal instructor for Anakin, being overly critical and irritable with everything he does.
As I said in my previous post, Palpatine seemed to guess at Anakin's origins, and because Anakin is as powerful as he is, he's likely right. For some reason, Plagueis had Anakin created, implanted into Shmi's womb and allowed to grow up on a shitty little system far away from anyone who could recognise his potential. What if Palpatine had found Anakin before Qui-Gon? It's not Qui-Gon's fault that he died before he could train Anakin. As Dooku said, he "knew all about the corruption in the Senate". Qui-Gon would have kept Anakin far away from Palpatine, and Anakin might never have fallen to the Dark Side. Perhaps he then may have defeated the Sith and brought balance to the Force in a different way... depending on your interpretation of this "balance".
Oh, come on! That's completely ridiculous, and you know it. He did try to free Shmi, but Watto refused, saying, "no pod is worth two slaves, not by a long shot!". It was of far greater import that he free Anakin and get him into training, he could have returned to liberate his mother at any time. Qui-Gon had no intention of training Anakin, remember, until the Council told him that he wouldn't be trained and, as he told Obi-Wan, he would do as he must. If he was training Anakin, he would recognise the boy's link to his mother, as the Council did, and return to Tatooine to free her. Obi-Wan had no connection to her and was far more by the book than Qui-Gon - attachment is forbidden. There's a reason he never tried to help Anakin free her - I would say if Anakin did ever request it, Obi-Wan would shoot him down with the Jedi's dictum of no attachment.
He needed to get Anakin away from Watto, and just trying to convince him into possibly losing him in a bet was difficult. It's very doubtful that Watto would be willing to possibly lose two slaves, never mind his star mechanic/pod racing pilot. I really don't understand why people say that Qui-Gon is not compassionate. He spends half the film with his hand on someone's shoulder, saving that annoying jackrabbit Jar-Jar from being "punished". Boss Nass' smile is supposed to indicate that this punishment was not going to be pleasant. Jar-Jar was a useless tag-along character who got in their way frequently, yet Qui-Gon saw the worth of his life so much so that he risked detection at every point of his stealthy approach to Theed, and risking attention on Tatooine. When Obi-Wan asks for forgiveness, as pointed out by Raynor, he doesn't criticise the younger man as Obi-Wan would later do to Anakin, but smiles and responds in a modest and humble manner.
Obi-Wan says at one point that they've picked up "yet another pathetic life-form". How many useless people does he pick up on their missions, protecting them from harm as he does with Jar-Jar? He stretches the rule of no attachment by caring for people who cannot care for themselves. Old Obi-Wan, with his former master's example before him, and having communed with Qui-Gon's spirit for so long, is so much more like his master than he is as a younger man. The difference between prequels Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon is that while Obi-Wan is the consummate Jedi of his era, he also exemplifies the problems with the Jedi of his era.
Qui-Gon is the Jedi every Jedi should be, as old Obi-Wan was.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
Well, yes. Qui-Gon is my favourite character of the prequels because he's so interestingly different, but there's nothing to account for Lucas' shitty writing and direction.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
Maybe it's been a while since I've seen the movie, but I think you might be making a stretch at calling him 'interestingly different'. There was nothing interesting about his character. You can blame Lucas for shitty writing and direction, but in the end Qui-Gon is Lucas' character/creation and given the amount of control Lucas had, he was portrayed in the movie according to Lucas' vision of him.
I always agreed with the RedLetterMediaReview on how Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really should have been one character (Obi-Wan). I don't know if TPM would have been a better movie overall for it, but at least the wooden acting would have been reduced by one.
Because Qui-Gon is a Sith....?
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You mean that one guy who seemed kind of competent?
He was tall.
And he kind of looked like space jesus.
Qui-Gon is interesting cause he is Liam Neeson. Although I'd like to say the same for Mace Windu but I feel that is just black dude in Jedi clothing.
Liam Neeson's voice will convince anyone of anything.
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