The next panel on that page says "gotcha" for those that are wondering. Supposedly that's not even the real Batman though.
No it actually is the real Batman, he gets sent back in time when the beams hit him. The skeleton they find is of a cloned Batman that was being used by Darkseid to create a new breed of troops or something along those lines.
hh isn't how he laughs either, it's just the sound he makes whenever something gets his attention or what he does to acknowledge someone or the point they make, I believe it first started to pop up during Morrisons run on the JLA.
The next panel on that page says "gotcha" for those that are wondering. Supposedly that's not even the real Batman though.
No it actually is the real Batman, he gets sent back in time when the beams hit him. The skeleton they find is of a cloned Batman that was being used by Darkseid to create a new breed of troops or something along those lines.
This seems like a good point at which to segue back into games and movies maintaining the sort of literary integrity that the comics have.
The next panel on that page says "gotcha" for those that are wondering. Supposedly that's not even the real Batman though.
No it actually is the real Batman, he gets sent back in time when the beams hit him. The skeleton they find is of a cloned Batman that was being used by Darkseid to create a new breed of troops or something along those lines.
This seems like a good point at which to segue back into games and movies maintaining the sort of literary integrity that the comics have.
The whole thing is much worse then how I put it, I didn't even touch the fact that Batman had been killed just before the whole event via a helicopter crash into a building which was officially touted as his death even on the media. Then turns out he's still alive, Darkseids prisoner and then whoops he dies again. Oh wait turns out he's just sent back into time.
The whole thing really was one big mess.
And no I refuse to touch on how all of earths people end up moving onto a bunch of ships and being transported to a exact duplicate world.
Oh shit I said it, just never mind what I said, you'll brain will hurt less.
Look... it's the Omega Sanction, a device whose literary definition is "it does whatever the writer wants it to do" it's just a fucked up McGuffin. Seriously, is that something we even want to bring into this discussion?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Look... it's the Omega Sanction, a device whose literary definition is "it does whatever the writer wants it to do" it's just a fucked up McGuffin. Seriously, is that something we even want to bring into this discussion?
I forget what Marvel's version of this is called, but it's some realm where all heroes / villains that die get transported to and pretty much wait to be revived.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I'm a much bigger fan of Batman when he's dealing with psychos in Gotham than when he's dealing with gods alongside the JLA.
It just feels so forced, him being a cosmic-level badass.
That's pretty much how I feel about it. Like, when he works alongside the JLA it IS badass and cool, yeah, but the emphasis of Batman being Batman comes out when he's just a guy trying to clean up the streets of his city. When his moments of "cosmic-level badass" become routine, the character loses a bunch of drive.
Also, this for some reason just reminded me of the Red Son comics. Batman didn't even try to kill Superman, he was trying to imprison him. So points to him.
Look... it's the Omega Sanction, a device whose literary definition is "it does whatever the writer wants it to do" it's just a fucked up McGuffin. Seriously, is that something we even want to bring into this discussion?
I forget what Marvel's version of this is called, but it's some realm where all heroes / villains that die get transported to and pretty much wait to be revived.
Are you talking about that one issue in Incredible Hercules where all the dead are playing in a casino trying to hit the big one so they can return again? That was pretty funny.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Look... it's the Omega Sanction, a device whose literary definition is "it does whatever the writer wants it to do" it's just a fucked up McGuffin. Seriously, is that something we even want to bring into this discussion?
I forget what Marvel's version of this is called, but it's some realm where all heroes / villains that die get transported to and pretty much wait to be revived.
Are you talking about that one issue in Incredible Hercules where all the dead are playing in a casino trying to hit the big one so they can return again? That was pretty funny.
if you read the dark knight returns he out right kills a guy with a machine gun...if you watch tim burtons batman he gives a guy an explosive and lets him blow up...batman has killed...recently he used a god killing bullet on darkseid and had this really assholeish shit eating grin when he did it and actually said "got ya" or something like "tag...your it"..or "it's been revoked"
...before he fired the bullet he even said "I normally have a rule against guns, but in a god's case I'll make an exception."
And he didn't have a shit eating grin. And he didn't say something like its been revoked. He had just escaped a dream-based torture chamber for christ sake.
The DKR/Miller version of Batman isn't canon, primarily because he's a raging psychopath. DKSA is even worse in that respect.
The Tim Burton thing is one of the issues people have with the Tim Burton movies, it isn't in Batman's character to do something like that.
edit: The posted image from the comic refutes all that better than my puny words.
On the Batman clone thing, its better in the comic than it sounds in that summary. Its pretty much impossible to take the whole Morrison Black Hand into Final Crisis and compress it to a few sentences.
The next panel on that page says "gotcha" for those that are wondering. Supposedly that's not even the real Batman though.
No it actually is the real Batman, he gets sent back in time when the beams hit him. The skeleton they find is of a cloned Batman that was being used by Darkseid to create a new breed of troops or something along those lines.
hh isn't how he laughs either, it's just the sound he makes whenever something gets his attention or what he does to acknowledge someone or the point they make, I believe it first started to pop up during Morrisons run on the JLA.
It's kind of like "hmph" but not quite.
I liked when Batman was fighting Cesar Romero as the Joker. What the fuck is this time traveling clone shit?
The next panel on that page says "gotcha" for those that are wondering. Supposedly that's not even the real Batman though.
No it actually is the real Batman, he gets sent back in time when the beams hit him. The skeleton they find is of a cloned Batman that was being used by Darkseid to create a new breed of troops or something along those lines.
hh isn't how he laughs either, it's just the sound he makes whenever something gets his attention or what he does to acknowledge someone or the point they make, I believe it first started to pop up during Morrisons run on the JLA.
It's kind of like "hmph" but not quite.
I liked when Batman was fighting Cesar Romero as the Joker. What the fuck is this time traveling clone shit?
Se...seriously? Shouldn't you be saying this while shooing kids off your lawn?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
The next panel on that page says "gotcha" for those that are wondering. Supposedly that's not even the real Batman though.
No it actually is the real Batman, he gets sent back in time when the beams hit him. The skeleton they find is of a cloned Batman that was being used by Darkseid to create a new breed of troops or something along those lines.
hh isn't how he laughs either, it's just the sound he makes whenever something gets his attention or what he does to acknowledge someone or the point they make, I believe it first started to pop up during Morrisons run on the JLA.
It's kind of like "hmph" but not quite.
I liked when Batman was fighting Cesar Romero as the Joker. What the fuck is this time traveling clone shit?
Se...seriously? Shouldn't you be saying this while shooing kids off your lawn?
I just did shoot a kid off my lawn, smoothskin!
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PwnanObrienHe's right, life sucks.Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
Cesar Romero didn't even shave for the part. What a lazy fucker.
I feel that the motivation that the Joker had, through out the whole movie, was proving how easy it was to go insane. Even his origins story was trying to get you to say 'oh, well, considering that he had a rough life it's understandable...". And the whole fight club'y bullshit about society being insane is also a rather clever attempt to get Dent to 'see his side'. That people buy into his false equivalence is just a sign of how well written the script was.
The whole thing is much worse then how I put it, I didn't even touch the fact that Batman had been killed just before the whole event via a helicopter crash into a building which was officially touted as his death even on the media. Then turns out he's still alive, Darkseids prisoner and then whoops he dies again. Oh wait turns out he's just sent back into time.
The whole thing really was one big mess.
And no I refuse to touch on how all of earths people end up moving onto a bunch of ships and being transported to a exact duplicate world.
Oh shit I said it, just never mind what I said, you'll brain will hurt less.
Cade, you're a horrible person. Final Crisis and Batman RIP were fantastic and your horrible descriptions make me think you haven't read it. He never died at the end of RIP, it just ended on a cliffhanger foreshadowing what was going to happen (Bruce gone, Dick holding the cowl). Straight after that he made his way back to the Batcave and was called up by the JLA. He investigated Orion's murder for a bit (finding and picking up a certain bullet in the process) and was then abducted by the evil gods, who were planning on creating an army of Batman clones with his mind. Batman figured it out, made the clones kill themselves (overloading their brains with all the horrible shit he's seen or whatever) and escaped. Then he shot Darkseid (specifically avoiding the important bits so the poison could kill Darkseid while leaving his host, Dan Turpin, alive) and was finally hit with the Omega Sanction sending him back through time without his memory.
I hated Final Crisis, and Batman RIP didn't do much for me, either. Sometimes I think Grant lets his obsession with making everything all high-concept and detached and just plain weird get in the way of simply telling a story that is actually enjoyable to read. It's like he focuses too much on making the reader think about and analyse his stories to death, and forgets to make me actually care about the characters themselves.
When he can strike a balance between writing concepts and writing enjoyable superhero comics, it's great. Like with JLA or New X-Men or All-Star Superman. But with FC and RIP, he went way too far into "complex for the sake of complex" territory for me.
Now, what I've read of his post-FC stuff has felt more back on track.
Sometimes I think Grant lets his obsession with making everything all high-concept and detached and just plain weird get in the way of simply telling a story that is actually enjoyable to read.
This is the biggest problem I've always had with Grant Morrison's work, and you put it so succinctly.
I hated Final Crisis, and Batman RIP didn't do much for me, either. Sometimes I think Grant lets his obsession with making everything all high-concept and detached and just plain weird get in the way of simply telling a story that is actually enjoyable to read. It's like he focuses too much on making the reader think about and analyse his stories to death, and forgets to make me actually care about the characters themselves.
When he can strike a balance between writing concepts and writing enjoyable superhero comics, it's great. Like with JLA or New X-Men or All-Star Superman. But with FC and RIP, he went way too far into "complex for the sake of complex" territory for me.
Now, what I've read of his post-FC stuff has felt more back on track.
Final Crisis was never meant to be about the characters though, it was an epic story about the God of Evil invading Earth, spanning the entire DCU and a number of months. It differentiated itself completely from the melodramatic, poorly paced, crap 'events' we're regularly spoon fed (Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, New Krypton, Blackest Night, etc) in that it was more of a Silmarillion than a Lord of the Rings or Hobbit. He shows you the important events but doesn't dwell on the details.
I can understand and accept that you don't like it, I'm just going over why it appeals to me. If you were saying that JT Krul is a genius writer on the other hand, I would dismiss and ignore you entirely :P That'd be like saying... Uwe Boll is a good director.
I love Grant Morrison, but when he gets high concept it is definitely everyone out of the pool. Final Crisis was the Donnie Darko of DC events, in that there is a lot to enjoy about it, but it barely makes a lick of sense and in some places is just downright ridiculous. Say what you will about DC's other crisis's, at least they made narrative sense.
On the other hand, I'm not sure Morrison is to blame. I think at the beginning he just wanted to write an interesting, DC Universe-wide story, but DC saw a cash grab and slapped the "Crisis" title on it. Either way, it wasn't great imho.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Well, to be honest, I think Final Crisis went more high concept with Superman, with him going and collecting other Supermen from other universes and then... I'm pretty sure they countered the anti-life equation with a song? Didn't Superman sing a song? And I'm pretty sure they was like, a vampire? Was it a vampire Superman?
God... I'm actually getting dizzy thinking about it.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
you did read the next page in final crisis right...likethe next page where batman gets shot in the back and chest?
The Omega Sanction isn't high concept... it's just stupid. It goes off in a different directions, it turns corners, it sometimes kills people, sometimes disintegrates them, sometimes turn them solid, sometimes sends them into the past...
meh... I guess that is pretty high concept. But like I said, it's just a MacGuffin. Hell, go read Young Justice, at the end of that you may as well just call the Omega Sanction a wish-granter.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
The whole thing is much worse then how I put it, I didn't even touch the fact that Batman had been killed just before the whole event via a helicopter crash into a building which was officially touted as his death even on the media. Then turns out he's still alive, Darkseids prisoner and then whoops he dies again. Oh wait turns out he's just sent back into time.
The whole thing really was one big mess.
And no I refuse to touch on how all of earths people end up moving onto a bunch of ships and being transported to a exact duplicate world.
Oh shit I said it, just never mind what I said, you'll brain will hurt less.
Cade, you're a horrible person. Final Crisis and Batman RIP were fantastic and your horrible descriptions make me think you haven't read it. He never died at the end of RIP, it just ended on a cliffhanger foreshadowing what was going to happen (Bruce gone, Dick holding the cowl). Straight after that he made his way back to the Batcave and was called up by the JLA. He investigated Orion's murder for a bit (finding and picking up a certain bullet in the process) and was then abducted by the evil gods, who were planning on creating an army of Batman clones with his mind. Batman figured it out, made the clones kill themselves (overloading their brains with all the horrible shit he's seen or whatever) and escaped. Then he shot Darkseid (specifically avoiding the important bits so the poison could kill Darkseid while leaving his host, Dan Turpin, alive) and was finally hit with the Omega Sanction sending him back through time without his memory.
l
Oh I read it, I thought it was all rather a mess but then clearly at the time DC was rewriting things and changing everything up frequently as they appear to do in big events but yeah you did sum it up much better then I did I admit.
if you read the dark knight returns he out right kills a guy with a machine gun
That's one of my favourite moments in DKR. It shows that Batman (at least Miller's Batman) is willing to kill if absolutely necessary.
"kills a guy with a machine gun" does a disservice to the moment, but unfortunately a google image search is failing me. Page 64 of the trade I have in front of me;
A trio of gang members have kidnapped a toddler and are holding him for ransom. Two are packing pistols and one has a machine gun. The one with the machine gun perforates one of the pistol wielding guys, then Batman bursts through the wall behind him, grabbing said weapon out of his hands. The final gang member holds the child up as a shield with the gun to its head, telling him that if he doesn't back off, she'll shoot the kid.
Batman takes one shot, saving the child.
I've always seen it being the case where Batman strives to avoid killing wherever possible, but at the same time he's just a man. He's not able to fly at the speed of sound or freeze things with his breath or shoot lasers from his eyes. He's fast, he's strong, he's well trained and incredibly intelligent, but if you push him far enough lethal force is still on his list of options.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
If you want a good example of Batman being an jerk watch 'Mudslide' from the Animated Series.
One of the best cases of how Batman can be a jerk can be credited to the JLA storyline Tower of Babel in which it's revealed yes Batman has files on each member of the JLA including HOW to defeat them. Trouble arises when Ra's Al Ghul steals said files and takes down each and every member of the league and Batman reveals yes it was his plans that Ra's used against them. Sure they were methods to be used in case any of the members went "evil" or had to be stopped but when they're suppose to be your friends as well it can be considered a pretty jerky thing to do no?
If you want a good example of Batman being an jerk watch 'Mudslide' from the Animated Series.
One of the best cases of how Batman can be a jerk can be credited to the JLA storyline Tower of Babel in which it's revealed yes Batman has files on each member of the JLA including HOW to defeat them. Trouble arises when Ra's Al Ghul steals said files and takes down each and every member of the league and Batman reveals yes it was his plans that Ra's used against them. Sure they were methods to be used in case any of the members went "evil" or had to be stopped but when they're suppose to be your friends as well it can be considered a pretty jerky thing to do no?
Considering how often heroes get cloned, mind-controlled, possessed, wake up in the morning and decide to become evil, have evil twins, have their perceptions clouded, and all around act like plot magnets for whatever cosmic infiltrative evil is floating around in the universe, I would argue that not only does it not make Batman a jerk to have those files, it makes everyone else in the Justice League stupid for not having their own.
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He's getting killed by that omega shit I think?
Also, Batman is so hardcore the Omega Sanction just sent him back to Caveman times.
Because Batman, that's why.
Why I fear the ocean.
No it actually is the real Batman, he gets sent back in time when the beams hit him. The skeleton they find is of a cloned Batman that was being used by Darkseid to create a new breed of troops or something along those lines.
hh isn't how he laughs either, it's just the sound he makes whenever something gets his attention or what he does to acknowledge someone or the point they make, I believe it first started to pop up during Morrisons run on the JLA.
It's kind of like "hmph" but not quite.
This seems like a good point at which to segue back into games and movies maintaining the sort of literary integrity that the comics have.
The whole thing is much worse then how I put it, I didn't even touch the fact that Batman had been killed just before the whole event via a helicopter crash into a building which was officially touted as his death even on the media. Then turns out he's still alive, Darkseids prisoner and then whoops he dies again. Oh wait turns out he's just sent back into time.
The whole thing really was one big mess.
And no I refuse to touch on how all of earths people end up moving onto a bunch of ships and being transported to a exact duplicate world.
Oh shit I said it, just never mind what I said, you'll brain will hurt less.
That was a huge WTF moment.
It just feels so forced, him being a cosmic-level badass.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I forget what Marvel's version of this is called, but it's some realm where all heroes / villains that die get transported to and pretty much wait to be revived.
That's pretty much how I feel about it. Like, when he works alongside the JLA it IS badass and cool, yeah, but the emphasis of Batman being Batman comes out when he's just a guy trying to clean up the streets of his city. When his moments of "cosmic-level badass" become routine, the character loses a bunch of drive.
Also, this for some reason just reminded me of the Red Son comics. Batman didn't even try to kill Superman, he was trying to imprison him. So points to him.
Are you talking about that one issue in Incredible Hercules where all the dead are playing in a casino trying to hit the big one so they can return again? That was pretty funny.
I wasn't but that sounds awesome.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
...before he fired the bullet he even said "I normally have a rule against guns, but in a god's case I'll make an exception."
And he didn't have a shit eating grin. And he didn't say something like its been revoked. He had just escaped a dream-based torture chamber for christ sake.
The DKR/Miller version of Batman isn't canon, primarily because he's a raging psychopath. DKSA is even worse in that respect.
The Tim Burton thing is one of the issues people have with the Tim Burton movies, it isn't in Batman's character to do something like that.
edit: The posted image from the comic refutes all that better than my puny words.
On the Batman clone thing, its better in the comic than it sounds in that summary. Its pretty much impossible to take the whole Morrison Black Hand into Final Crisis and compress it to a few sentences.
I just watched all of Atop the 4th Wall's backlog in like two months. Bad comics can't hurt me anymore.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
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I never asked for this!
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DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
But then, I always am.
Why I fear the ocean.
I liked when Batman was fighting Cesar Romero as the Joker. What the fuck is this time traveling clone shit?
Se...seriously? Shouldn't you be saying this while shooing kids off your lawn?
I just did shoot a kid off my lawn, smoothskin!
Cade, you're a horrible person. Final Crisis and Batman RIP were fantastic and your horrible descriptions make me think you haven't read it. He never died at the end of RIP, it just ended on a cliffhanger foreshadowing what was going to happen (Bruce gone, Dick holding the cowl). Straight after that he made his way back to the Batcave and was called up by the JLA. He investigated Orion's murder for a bit (finding and picking up a certain bullet in the process) and was then abducted by the evil gods, who were planning on creating an army of Batman clones with his mind. Batman figured it out, made the clones kill themselves (overloading their brains with all the horrible shit he's seen or whatever) and escaped. Then he shot Darkseid (specifically avoiding the important bits so the poison could kill Darkseid while leaving his host, Dan Turpin, alive) and was finally hit with the Omega Sanction sending him back through time without his memory.
Ambush Bug >>>>> Deadpool
http://www.audioentropy.com/
When he can strike a balance between writing concepts and writing enjoyable superhero comics, it's great. Like with JLA or New X-Men or All-Star Superman. But with FC and RIP, he went way too far into "complex for the sake of complex" territory for me.
Now, what I've read of his post-FC stuff has felt more back on track.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
This is the biggest problem I've always had with Grant Morrison's work, and you put it so succinctly.
Final Crisis was never meant to be about the characters though, it was an epic story about the God of Evil invading Earth, spanning the entire DCU and a number of months. It differentiated itself completely from the melodramatic, poorly paced, crap 'events' we're regularly spoon fed (Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, New Krypton, Blackest Night, etc) in that it was more of a Silmarillion than a Lord of the Rings or Hobbit. He shows you the important events but doesn't dwell on the details.
I can understand and accept that you don't like it, I'm just going over why it appeals to me. If you were saying that JT Krul is a genius writer on the other hand, I would dismiss and ignore you entirely :P That'd be like saying... Uwe Boll is a good director.
On the other hand, I'm not sure Morrison is to blame. I think at the beginning he just wanted to write an interesting, DC Universe-wide story, but DC saw a cash grab and slapped the "Crisis" title on it. Either way, it wasn't great imho.
Just not Batman.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
God... I'm actually getting dizzy thinking about it.
The Omega Sanction isn't high concept... it's just stupid. It goes off in a different directions, it turns corners, it sometimes kills people, sometimes disintegrates them, sometimes turn them solid, sometimes sends them into the past...
meh... I guess that is pretty high concept. But like I said, it's just a MacGuffin. Hell, go read Young Justice, at the end of that you may as well just call the Omega Sanction a wish-granter.
Oh I read it, I thought it was all rather a mess but then clearly at the time DC was rewriting things and changing everything up frequently as they appear to do in big events but yeah you did sum it up much better then I did I admit.
That's one of my favourite moments in DKR. It shows that Batman (at least Miller's Batman) is willing to kill if absolutely necessary.
"kills a guy with a machine gun" does a disservice to the moment, but unfortunately a google image search is failing me. Page 64 of the trade I have in front of me;
Batman takes one shot, saving the child.
I've always seen it being the case where Batman strives to avoid killing wherever possible, but at the same time he's just a man. He's not able to fly at the speed of sound or freeze things with his breath or shoot lasers from his eyes. He's fast, he's strong, he's well trained and incredibly intelligent, but if you push him far enough lethal force is still on his list of options.
One of the best cases of how Batman can be a jerk can be credited to the JLA storyline Tower of Babel in which it's revealed yes Batman has files on each member of the JLA including HOW to defeat them. Trouble arises when Ra's Al Ghul steals said files and takes down each and every member of the league and Batman reveals yes it was his plans that Ra's used against them. Sure they were methods to be used in case any of the members went "evil" or had to be stopped but when they're suppose to be your friends as well it can be considered a pretty jerky thing to do no?
Considering how often heroes get cloned, mind-controlled, possessed, wake up in the morning and decide to become evil, have evil twins, have their perceptions clouded, and all around act like plot magnets for whatever cosmic infiltrative evil is floating around in the universe, I would argue that not only does it not make Batman a jerk to have those files, it makes everyone else in the Justice League stupid for not having their own.