Once again John Noble shines like no other in this episode. The guy's facial expressions when they switch Walters is amazing. You can actually feel the contempt Walternate has for everything, but when they switch to Walter enjoying a red vine you can't help but feel sad and/or happy for him.
Yeah, he even nails wanting to tear apart Walternate when he saw him. I actually wish he had, that be awesome.
And a nitpick:
And the more I think about it the whole scene where Future Olivia bites it feels off. He'd be one of the most wanted men in the world, walking around a secured area that just had a breach, and somehow gets in and out with no one noticing. Suppose doing in that way made it more dramatic vs a bomb or something, I just was hoping they were going somewhere with the 'I learned to control it' bit. Maybe next season.
Future Walter: Detailed explanation about how they have to send Peter's consciousness forward in time as workaround to the rules of time
Peter: How do we do that?
Zoooooooooom
Maybe they'll get back to it next season. But I doubt it.
Also, re: the ending
"He never existed". This can't just be brushed over. The Observers are basically the show's Rosetta Stone. The only way that comment makes sense to me is if they foresaw this calamity a long time ago, and somehow created him/inserted him into the timeline and set him along this path to fix it? They don't like to directly manipulate though, so I don't really get it.
Future Walter: Detailed explanation about how they have to send Peter's consciousness forward in time as workaround to the rules of time
Peter: How do we do that?
Zoooooooooom
Maybe they'll get back to it next season. But I doubt it.
Also, re: the ending
"He never existed". This can't just be brushed over. The Observers are basically the show's Rosetta Stone. The only way that comment makes sense to me is if they foresaw this calamity a long time ago, and somehow created him/inserted him into the timeline and set him along this path to fix it? They don't like to directly manipulate though, so I don't really get it.
Theories?
Well, about your whole "re: ending" part:
Technically Peter never SHOULD have existed - this long, at least. The whole Observer plot we see with Peter and Walter revolves around the fact that an Observer got involved and saved Peter - AFTER Walter had already gone over and come back with the "Wrong" Peter.
So I think this was basically the Observers being like, finally we got this extra guy in the timeline thing all figured out. The world is now as it would have been had BOTH Peter's died - as they should have.
also, for what its worth, the producers of Fringe were on Twitter after the finale and said:
Peter is indeed "somewhere" with a winky face.
They also said that while other "great shows" thrived on holding back answers, thats not how they roll. Where Peter is, what happened and how it happened are all very much going to be absolutely answered in Season 4.
mxmarks on
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And no, it didn't bother me. We skipped over Walter's zany setup, seen it before. It worked as we knew it would. Now what the machine does etc etc needed answering better still, but that was obviously left blank for season 4.
And the Observer's are winging it still I bet, they just don't know it.
I actually thought they were gonna bring back the soul magnets thing somehow. It would have fit what he was talking about and also would have helped make the whole return of william bell stuff seem less arbitrary.
and yes the machine definitely needs some more explanation
Future Walter: Detailed explanation about how they have to send Peter's consciousness forward in time as workaround to the rules of time
Peter: How do we do that?
Zoooooooooom
Maybe they'll get back to it next season. But I doubt it.
Also, re: the ending
"He never existed". This can't just be brushed over. The Observers are basically the show's Rosetta Stone. The only way that comment makes sense to me is if they foresaw this calamity a long time ago, and somehow created him/inserted him into the timeline and set him along this path to fix it? They don't like to directly manipulate though, so I don't really get it.
Theories?
Well, about your whole "re: ending" part:
Technically Peter never SHOULD have existed - this long, at least. The whole Observer plot we see with Peter and Walter revolves around the fact that an Observer got involved and saved Peter - AFTER Walter had already gone over and come back with the "Wrong" Peter.
So I think this was basically the Observers being like, finally we got this extra guy in the timeline thing all figured out. The world is now as it would have been had BOTH Peter's died - as they should have.
also, for what its worth, the producers of Fringe were on Twitter after the finale and said:
Peter is indeed "somewhere" with a winky face.
They also said that while other "great shows" thrived on holding back answers, thats not how they roll. Where Peter is, what happened and how it happened are all very much going to be absolutely answered in Season 4.
One issue I have with the first spoiler in the non-quote section
Peter from the Other Side wasn't supposed to have died. Walternate was supposed to have created the cure himself, but the Observer picked the absolute most "LOOK AT ME" place in the lab to observe the event, messing it up. Hence why Walter nearly breaks down when Walternate turns around to figure out why there's a tall, pale man in a suit suddenly in his lab, then crosses over to give Peter the antidote, throwing the Universes into chaos
I mean, I sort of do. I get what Peter did and how they made it happen. What I don't get is why he vanishes. The "he never existed, he fullfilled his purpose." line makes zero sense to me. Peter was the reason the universes started tearing apart to begin with, so theres no sense in him only existed to lead to them fixing that problem.
And I wanted a universe merge of double conciousness, but i suppose universe bridge is ok.
One issue I have with the first spoiler in the non-quote section
Peter from the Other Side wasn't supposed to have died. Walternate was supposed to have created the cure himself, but the Observer picked the absolute most "LOOK AT ME" place in the lab to observe the event, messing it up. Hence why Walter nearly breaks down when Walternate turns around to figure out why there's a tall, pale man in a suit suddenly in his lab, then crosses over to give Peter the antidote, throwing the Universes into chaos
Wow, I completely forgot about this. You're right, it throws the whole thing off. Thanks for the reminder.
Xeddicus:
re: Soul magnets - What I meant was I thought they were going to use soul magnets somehow to
Ah. I guess we can say they just work when you're dead and not just displaced in time? :P They're just another amazing thing stashed away in Walter's lab at this point.
And while Lanz is correct, it doesn't really matter. This sounds kind of too general because this is fiction, but- There is no 'right' way, or 'this had to happen' or 'is going to happen'. The Observers are shooting in the dark like everyone else practically, otherwise there wouldn't have been surprise or doubt that one was correct (for now). There are obviously massive plot holes with a character never existing, and most of them are going to get filled I'd bet (or at least glossed over- paradox!).
They're (the writers) probably making this up as they go, anyway. Trick is making it not Lost-like.
Xeddicus on
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The_SpaniardIt's never lupinesIrvine, CaliforniaRegistered Userregular
At least I'm not the only one that made a sour face at the pathetically anachronistic and nonsensical product placement, like having a billboard for a NEW 2006 car in 2142.
Having just watched Hot Tub Time Machine a few days ago, I am somewhat amused that Fringe uses the same visual effect to show that somebody has been erased from reality due to a time paradox.
I thought their reaction to Peter disappearing was off. . .I'm like "What the hell, your son just vanished. . .a little awe perhaps?"
The bridge concept is a great means of continuing a pretty hot storyline. And I like that The First People actually make sense in the context of the show (although in a reverse way of what was originally thought); still doesn't explain why the machine was built or the biggest hanging chad of the show - The Observers!
ED! on
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BarcardiAll the WizardsUnder A Rock: AfganistanRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Holy shit this episode. I don't know what to make of it.
I thought their reaction to Peter disappearing was off. . .I'm like "What the hell, your son just vanished. . .a little awe perhaps?"
The bridge concept is a great means of continuing a pretty hot storyline. And I like that The First People actually make sense in the context of the show (although in a reverse way of what was originally thought); still doesn't explain why the machine was built or the biggest hanging chad of the show - The Observers!
Just to clatify: You thought that before they clarified what happened, right? Ok, moving on.
The bridge concept is going to cause massive production issues I bet, so it'll get nuked. But it is a awesome development.
Xeddicus on
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Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
He was acting like he had a stroke, if you watch, he only talks out of the right side of his mouth, his left arm is just hanging there when he hugs Olivia. It is pretty subtle, but if you watch for it you can't stop noticing it.
Actually: It might have been his right side that was useless, and I said that wrong.
I noticed the non use of his left side right away and I guessed he got hurt during one of fringe events like Broyles. A stroke makes sense giving all the stress he would have been under.
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CaptainPeacockBoard Game HoarderTop o' the LakeRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
The stroke thing was pretty evident to me. A nice touch of depth, I thought.
CaptainPeacock on
Cluck cluck, gibber gibber, my old man's a mushroom, etc.
Yeah, that's the concern and it would extend to any show.
Weird gray areas of human knowledge we don't get? Sure, dive right in.
Star Trek-esque jargon that might make some sort of internally consistent sense? Gangbusters, I'm all for it.
Things that I know for a fact are wrong because that is the exact opposite of how they work?
nnng
Okay, it took me nearly 4 months, but I've finally watched the entirety of the series, barring the Season 3 finale, which I should be able to see tonight.
The above drove me up the wall a little around Season 1'ish in particular. One moment that stood out heavily was the "weird egg shaped things exploding up from the ground" where Walter says that this was what the government was trying to do with Project Thor.
No. Bad. Wrong. F-, see me after class. Project Thor was an attempt to use kinetic energy built up firing crowbar and telephone pole sized chunks of metal from orbit at points around the Earth. It had nothing to do with firing at things through the Earth, and while I'm not heavily versed in the math behind such things, would not hitting one side of the planet with enough force to punch through to the other side have rather catastrophic consequences for the original impact point?
We're talking about ~8,000 miles of solid and molten rock here.
... this was probably beaten into the ground heavily in the first thread, and there have been other moments that have caught me, but as a new viewer that's something that stood out alongside moments of (sometimes strained) suspended disbelief.
Annnnd now I have about 25 pages to catch up on.
Super late edit: To be clear, the batshit crazy stuff I'm fine with. I just hate it when they get facts wrong that they should've just wikipedia'd up. Play fast and loose with chimeric blood parasites all you like.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I don't understand Peter not existing. There are too many problems with that. If Peter never existed, then why did Walter cross over in the first place?
Cameron_Talley on
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Once again John Noble shines like no other in this episode. The guy's facial expressions when they switch Walters is amazing. You can actually feel the contempt Walternate has for everything, but when they switch to Walter enjoying a red vine you can't help but feel sad and/or happy for him.
He needs all the emmys.
The other exceptional thing about that performance is that Future Walter has apparently had a stroke at some point, and Noble pegs the slight slackness on the right side of his face, a slight lisp, the contraction of the right hand which he uses in a very limited fashion, in contrast with Walternate who is hale and healthy and up to no good with a fully expressive face.
So, yeah. All the emmys.
(edit - and beat'd!)
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
edited May 2011
So the season is over. Spoilers are now fair game in here, so no need to use tags unless you are special and have confirmed spoilery bits about future episodes because you are actually JJ Abrams or whatever.
ElJeffe on
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
edited May 2011
This episode was keen.
Even though I knew the entire future was never going to happen, Olivia getting shot still surprised me because it was well edited and well shot (wakka wakka). It was just "doo dee doo, I am Olivia *bang* *dead*"
I was very happy that the ending was not just "I know how to save the future, yay! *roll credits*", because that's what I saw coming and I was preparing a groan. But then there was still a good, didn't-see-that-coming ending, so woot.
I'm operating on the assumption that the universe split sometime in the past due to Peter. I'd have to pore over past episodes to come up with a guess as to when or why, but that's the only thing I can think of as to why Peter would be A) so important and not supposed to exist at that point. Figure he had to exist at some point in the past, because otherwise him ever being anywhere at all is completely random.
And also, I think the universe split must be semi-recent, because otherwise it would be really strange that the universes bear such similarity. Billions of years of history that happen to wind up with the exact same people being born to the same parents and looking identical-ish even at present time? Yes, it's a sci-fi show, but... it feels more right for it to be a recent split. And something unnatural.
And if the universes can't exist each without the other, seems another reason why they should've been joined before. And I'm betting this will lead to them being merged in the end. So I think that's what the end-game is, here: trying to force the universes to merge together so everyone can be saved and live happily ever after.
Lastly, I think this show is faring a lot better than Lost did because the cliffhangers and mystery aren't the key premise of the show. Lost was conceived and born as a show about mysteries, where the audience was always supposed to go "what the fuck omigod so weird". If an episode ended without another question being raised, it was a failure, because it was a show about questions first and foremost.
Fringe is a show about parallel universes and cool fake science first and foremost. It just happens to also have some weird things going on that raise questions. It has a central mystery, but it is not a show about mysteries, and it works much better. It is the difference between a meal that incorporates pepper and one that is basically a giant pile of peppercorns.
(And I enjoyed Lost, but I think it was often working against itself in order to keep it's theme of ooooh mysterious running strong.)
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Just excellent. I had doubts as to whether the writers could convincingly stretch this out for YET ANOTHER season without making me want to kick them in the balls, and I'm glad they went with resolving it - at least partially - by creating a bridge. We probably still have the problem of instability, but now there's a whole new twist: they have to work together to solve it, which will lead to all kinds of drama.
Peter vanishing is interesting, but I hope they don't wait until too far into season 4 to resolve it. Obviously there are going to be huge questionmarks, like 'if Peter isn't there, who used the machine?' and the even bigger question, 'who got Fauxlivia pregnant if not Peter?'
People's minds might rearrange themselves to retroactively write out someone as a protection against paradox, but I assume the physical evidence of his existence doesn't 'unmake' itself the same way.
Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Yeah, I'm guessing it's going to be something like people being erased from time in S5 of Doctor Who where memories fade/rearrange (and can be jump-started with the right stimuli), but physical evidence doesn't.
CaptainPeacockBoard Game HoarderTop o' the LakeRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
I took the Observer's comment about Peter to mean "adult Peter" never existed. That he died at some point in the current form of the past.
Makes me wonder if they are pulling a Dark Tower, where this is but one iteration in the larger story, where the Observers are still trying to solve this big problem they created. We've seen the machine being sent into the past to be used in the next iteration, but it had to have been made at some point. There had to have been a time where the machine didn't exist, so it was invented by Walter in the hopes of solving the problem. He could have left better instructions.
CaptainPeacock on
Cluck cluck, gibber gibber, my old man's a mushroom, etc.
Yeah, I'm guessing it's going to be something like people being erased from time in S5 of Doctor Who where memories fade/rearrange (and can be jump-started with the right stimuli), but physical evidence doesn't.
Agreed. I think it's more figurative. Like they've consciously forgotten that he ever existed, but they've still got some niggling sub-conscious sense that something's amiss. Naturally, the things he did still happened; nothing gets "undone."
Yeah, I'm guessing it's going to be something like people being erased from time in S5 of Doctor Who where memories fade/rearrange (and can be jump-started with the right stimuli), but physical evidence doesn't.
Agreed. I think it's more figurative. Like they've consciously forgotten that he ever existed, but they've still got some niggling sub-conscious sense that something's amiss. Naturally, the things he did still happened; nothing gets "undone."
That sounds too Lost S6 for my liking, though. Then again, while there are Lost moments to the series, they've usually done a good job of making them different enough for Fringe to be its own thing.
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
*That* Peter never existed. The one that was born on one side and raised on the other due to an observer mistake. They corrected the timeline and now the *real* Peter exists simply as a "othersider" that was never stolen because the Observers never interfered with the repaired timeline.
In the new timeline, "our" Walter accidentally punched through the Universes while continuing his window experiments after his son died. That was why he referenced it strictly as an "accident".
Peter's not old enough to be the cause of the split. He's what? Mid-30s? Makes him born in the mid 70s. We know of at *least* four things in the alt universe that are different and had to occur before Peter's birth:
1) No Hindenberg/zeppelin disasters leading to their disuse
2) JFK was not assassinated
3) At least one prominent Black Panther was involved in MLK's portion of the Civil Rights Movement.
4) MLK was equally not assassinated
enlightenedbum on
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He needs all the emmys.
And a nitpick:
Peter: How do we do that?
Zoooooooooom
Maybe they'll get back to it next season. But I doubt it.
Also, re: the ending
Theories?
XBL: Slimebucato
Well, about your whole "re: ending" part:
So I think this was basically the Observers being like, finally we got this extra guy in the timeline thing all figured out. The world is now as it would have been had BOTH Peter's died - as they should have.
also, for what its worth, the producers of Fringe were on Twitter after the finale and said:
They also said that while other "great shows" thrived on holding back answers, thats not how they roll. Where Peter is, what happened and how it happened are all very much going to be absolutely answered in Season 4.
Comforting to hear about the giving of answers, but this season has been kind of dicey with that so I'm not sure what to think
XBL: Slimebucato
And the Observer's are winging it still I bet, they just don't know it.
and yes the machine definitely needs some more explanation
XBL: Slimebucato
I just realized Olivia's sister and niece didn't show up in current time, even though they had the niece in the future. Maybe they're behind it all!
One issue I have with the first spoiler in the non-quote section
And I wanted a universe merge of double conciousness, but i suppose universe bridge is ok.
Wow, I completely forgot about this. You're right, it throws the whole thing off. Thanks for the reminder.
Xeddicus:
re: Soul magnets - What I meant was I thought they were going to use soul magnets somehow to
XBL: Slimebucato
And while Lanz is correct, it doesn't really matter. This sounds kind of too general because this is fiction, but- There is no 'right' way, or 'this had to happen' or 'is going to happen'. The Observers are shooting in the dark like everyone else practically, otherwise there wouldn't have been surprise or doubt that one was correct (for now). There are obviously massive plot holes with a character never existing, and most of them are going to get filled I'd bet (or at least glossed over- paradox!).
They're (the writers) probably making this up as they go, anyway. Trick is making it not Lost-like.
At least I'm not the only one that made a sour face at the pathetically anachronistic and nonsensical product placement, like having a billboard for a NEW 2006 car in 2142.
You can go out and buy one today. SPRINT!
The bridge concept is a great means of continuing a pretty hot storyline. And I like that The First People actually make sense in the context of the show (although in a reverse way of what was originally thought); still doesn't explain why the machine was built or the biggest hanging chad of the show - The Observers!
Just to clatify: You thought that before they clarified what happened, right? Ok, moving on.
The bridge concept is going to cause massive production issues I bet, so it'll get nuked. But it is a awesome development.
I've read in a few different places that John Noble was playing it as though he'd had a stroke - if this is true, it went over my head.
Actually: It might have been his right side that was useless, and I said that wrong.
Okay, it took me nearly 4 months, but I've finally watched the entirety of the series, barring the Season 3 finale, which I should be able to see tonight.
The above drove me up the wall a little around Season 1'ish in particular. One moment that stood out heavily was the "weird egg shaped things exploding up from the ground" where Walter says that this was what the government was trying to do with Project Thor.
No. Bad. Wrong. F-, see me after class. Project Thor was an attempt to use kinetic energy built up firing crowbar and telephone pole sized chunks of metal from orbit at points around the Earth. It had nothing to do with firing at things through the Earth, and while I'm not heavily versed in the math behind such things, would not hitting one side of the planet with enough force to punch through to the other side have rather catastrophic consequences for the original impact point?
We're talking about ~8,000 miles of solid and molten rock here.
... this was probably beaten into the ground heavily in the first thread, and there have been other moments that have caught me, but as a new viewer that's something that stood out alongside moments of (sometimes strained) suspended disbelief.
Annnnd now I have about 25 pages to catch up on.
Super late edit: To be clear, the batshit crazy stuff I'm fine with. I just hate it when they get facts wrong that they should've just wikipedia'd up. Play fast and loose with chimeric blood parasites all you like.
3DS Friend Code: 0404-6826-4588 PM if you add.
How did the Walter's develop an animosity if there was no Peter?
Also, what a kickass episode!!! Love the use of time travel.
The other exceptional thing about that performance is that Future Walter has apparently had a stroke at some point, and Noble pegs the slight slackness on the right side of his face, a slight lisp, the contraction of the right hand which he uses in a very limited fashion, in contrast with Walternate who is hale and healthy and up to no good with a fully expressive face.
So, yeah. All the emmys.
(edit - and beat'd!)
Even though I knew the entire future was never going to happen, Olivia getting shot still surprised me because it was well edited and well shot (wakka wakka). It was just "doo dee doo, I am Olivia *bang* *dead*"
I was very happy that the ending was not just "I know how to save the future, yay! *roll credits*", because that's what I saw coming and I was preparing a groan. But then there was still a good, didn't-see-that-coming ending, so woot.
I'm operating on the assumption that the universe split sometime in the past due to Peter. I'd have to pore over past episodes to come up with a guess as to when or why, but that's the only thing I can think of as to why Peter would be A) so important and
And also, I think the universe split must be semi-recent, because otherwise it would be really strange that the universes bear such similarity. Billions of years of history that happen to wind up with the exact same people being born to the same parents and looking identical-ish even at present time? Yes, it's a sci-fi show, but... it feels more right for it to be a recent split. And something unnatural.
And if the universes can't exist each without the other, seems another reason why they should've been joined before. And I'm betting this will lead to them being merged in the end. So I think that's what the end-game is, here: trying to force the universes to merge together so everyone can be saved and live happily ever after.
Lastly, I think this show is faring a lot better than Lost did because the cliffhangers and mystery aren't the key premise of the show. Lost was conceived and born as a show about mysteries, where the audience was always supposed to go "what the fuck omigod so weird". If an episode ended without another question being raised, it was a failure, because it was a show about questions first and foremost.
Fringe is a show about parallel universes and cool fake science first and foremost. It just happens to also have some weird things going on that raise questions. It has a central mystery, but it is not a show about mysteries, and it works much better. It is the difference between a meal that incorporates pepper and one that is basically a giant pile of peppercorns.
(And I enjoyed Lost, but I think it was often working against itself in order to keep it's theme of ooooh mysterious running strong.)
Just excellent. I had doubts as to whether the writers could convincingly stretch this out for YET ANOTHER season without making me want to kick them in the balls, and I'm glad they went with resolving it - at least partially - by creating a bridge. We probably still have the problem of instability, but now there's a whole new twist: they have to work together to solve it, which will lead to all kinds of drama.
Peter vanishing is interesting, but I hope they don't wait until too far into season 4 to resolve it. Obviously there are going to be huge questionmarks, like 'if Peter isn't there, who used the machine?' and the even bigger question, 'who got Fauxlivia pregnant if not Peter?'
People's minds might rearrange themselves to retroactively write out someone as a protection against paradox, but I assume the physical evidence of his existence doesn't 'unmake' itself the same way.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Makes me wonder if they are pulling a Dark Tower, where this is but one iteration in the larger story, where the Observers are still trying to solve this big problem they created. We've seen the machine being sent into the past to be used in the next iteration, but it had to have been made at some point. There had to have been a time where the machine didn't exist, so it was invented by Walter in the hopes of solving the problem. He could have left better instructions.
Agreed. I think it's more figurative. Like they've consciously forgotten that he ever existed, but they've still got some niggling sub-conscious sense that something's amiss. Naturally, the things he did still happened; nothing gets "undone."
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
*That* Peter never existed. The one that was born on one side and raised on the other due to an observer mistake. They corrected the timeline and now the *real* Peter exists simply as a "othersider" that was never stolen because the Observers never interfered with the repaired timeline.
In the new timeline, "our" Walter accidentally punched through the Universes while continuing his window experiments after his son died. That was why he referenced it strictly as an "accident".
1) No Hindenberg/zeppelin disasters leading to their disuse
2) JFK was not assassinated
3) At least one prominent Black Panther was involved in MLK's portion of the Civil Rights Movement.
4) MLK was equally not assassinated