I'm fine with trigger warnings being used in what amounts to a feminist treehouse.
If you see a sign on a treehouse that says "No Larrys alowed" and your name is Larry, you go next door to the open tree house. Or you make your own treehouse with blackjack and self-empowered women.
The argument against games is that games will make you violent.
They claim it makes you more violent by desensitizing you to violence. Which people ARE claiming that rape jokes desensitize you to rape.
The comic is still up.
And saved to my hard drive, just in case.
Why isn't there so much hoopla over Cyanide and Happiness?
C&H doesn't run massive, biannual conventions for gamers that are supposed to be inclusive. C&H doesn't run a charity with the goal of demonstrating gamer kindness and generosity. C&H doesn't put out a reality internet show that, among other things, tries to engender sympathy in its audience towards Mike in particular because of traumatic experiences in his past (see "Drugs").
Are you implying that a joke about MMOs with the word rape in them undermines all of those things?
I mean, the first 2 points are good, but the 3rd point is full of bullshit. Like:
The cartoon implied that rape is less common than it is, that rape culture isn’t real, and that the whole subject is beneath you.
Which the second comic did none of.
However, the overall point that they should have just ignored the silly geese bloggers is right.
Frankly though, I think it's perfectly understandable to react to it. It's not like being accused of being a rape apologist or the like is small beans. That's pretty fucking offensive.
Overall, the redo of this whole bullshit has just made my opinion of places like Shakesville sink even lower, which I didn't think was really possible after the first time this shit came up.
I really wonder if the incindiary PA edits tumblr is truly someone from the anti-PA camp or if it's someone on the pro-PA camp constructing a strawman to attack the other side with.
Shakesville is safe like a padded room. It should not be intended as a long term plan for the management of what happened to you. A site like Shakesville treats women like porcelain dolls that will crack if exposed to the air. For a so-called feminist blog, it's disgusting. Women are far stronger then Shakesville believes its readers to believe.
If rape comes with a lot of jokes, then rape will seem less terrible, or we'll find excuses to make it NOT rape. It's how our culture treats rape.
Can you back up this claim, because if you can't it would really help move things along if you stop promulgating this idea.
This blog does a decent job of explaining how it works. And it's less crazy. Everybody wins.
No, that's pure crazy right there.
I mean, I get you are trying to find something that talks about repeated use creating desensitization (or at least, that's what I think you are talking about) but that person just completely missed the point of the comic and went off on some crazy tangent.
I think the best part is that in the context of the joke, rape is used to emphasize how bad the slave's life is. If anything, the joke reinforces the view of rape being a horrible thing.
And this whole discussion is silly and blown out of proportion.
Okay, I'm done. I've only had to post a billion times now that what you said is missing the point entirely. Look at my posts and you'll soon come across one that explains the situation. I find the rape culture point to have some merit, and that we might want to be more aware of when we discuss rape and the context we discuss it in. I think the PTSD is sad but don't see any way we could solve that problem without greatly diluting all art to the point of nothingness.
Gabe and Tycho had a poor response comic which has GREATLY confused people, albeit in response to an overly dramatic blog post. The best solution would be to ignore it, and that's probably the best solution now.
That's my take on it, and I don't think we're going to make much headway on it if people keep coming in with the same misconceptions from the response comic. But that's all from me unless something major happens outside of twitter trolling from both sides. Which I doubt.
Something that is discussed with some frequency around here is how the quickly an MMO reverts to its default state, ready for the next bus-full of level appropriate tourists to do whatever that zone desperately requires. Whenever something happens outside this cycle - like WoW's phasing (which gets fairly elaborate by the time Cataclysm rolls around) or a dynamic party matching up against a tough public quest in WAR - it's exhilarating. And then you go collect your hooves.
The comic is about how WoW and MMOs are mundane and mechanical and that people simply go through the cycles over and over to gain XP. Regardless of whatever is going on in the game it's just a place setting to increase your numbers. The joke is a play on how detached, unsympathetic, and single minded the gamer is, not on the victims suffering.
I know that the thing to say is that "you have to read the news post to understand PA comics". Yes, it's definitely a thing of theirs but it's still part of their whole shtick and no you don't get to write it off.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to welcome all our new posters with recent join dates and low post counts and express my sincere hopes that you are participating in other topical threads and other aspects of our community as vociferously as you are here.
Not yet, but I spied a StarCraft 2 thread that I might join in on.
On topic: My previous statement concerning M&J saying 'fuck it' and doing nothing in regards to the one-sided view that has spread through the games press? That was wrong. They need to spin out some damage control, and the sooner, the better.
They need to bite the bullet and issue a public apology, a very fucking detailed explanation of events leading up to where we are right now that can drive home the point that this isn't some kind of man versus woman war -- at the very least.
On top of that, a donation to some rape victims/ feminist agenda charity? I don't know. But the way this is going with regards to the people that give them coverage and patronage is going to irreparably
damage PAX as a core event. It's already happening.
The argument against games is that games will make you violent.
They claim it makes you more violent by desensitizing you to violence. Which people ARE claiming that rape jokes desensitize you to rape.
The comic is still up.
And saved to my hard drive, just in case.
Why isn't there so much hoopla over Cyanide and Happiness?
C&H doesn't run massive, biannual conventions for gamers that are supposed to be inclusive. C&H doesn't run a charity with the goal of demonstrating gamer kindness and generosity. C&H doesn't put out a reality internet show that, among other things, tries to engender sympathy in its audience towards Mike in particular because of traumatic experiences in his past (see "Drugs").
Are you implying that a joke about MMOs with the word rape in them undermines all of those things?
No. Mostly I'm saying that PA is bigger and tends to invite people to invest emotionally in the brand and its message(s) more than lots of other webcomics.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to welcome all our new posters with recent join dates and low post counts and express my sincere hopes that you are participating in other topical threads and other aspects of our community as vociferously as you are here.
Not yet, but I spied a StarCraft 2 thread that I might join in on.
On topic: My previous statement concerning M&J saying 'fuck it' and doing nothing in regards to the one-sided view that has spread through the games press? That was wrong. They need to spin out some damage control, and the sooner, the better.
They need to bite the bullet and issue a public apology, a very fucking detailed explanation of events leading up to where we are right now that can drive home the point that this isn't some kind of man versus woman war -- at the very least.
On top of that, a donation to some rape victims/ feminist agenda charity? I don't know. But the way this is going with regards to the people that give them coverage and patronage is going to irreparably
damage PAX as a core event. It's already happening.
Offering any more legitimacy to these crazies is the last thing they need to do.
They need to bite the bullet and issue a public apology, a very fucking detailed explanation of events leading up to where we are right now that can drive home the point that this isn't some kind of man versus woman war -- at the very least.
wait, what?
the slave looked like a man to me. was it supposed to be a woman?
But there are like a thousand rape and other assorted jokes based off of horrible things that happen to people. If rape jokes desensitize people to accepting rape, or forms of rape, as acceptable then surely that site has contributed directly to at least one rape.
As you can see from my graph C&H would of caused at least one rape in the world.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to welcome all our new posters with recent join dates and low post counts and express my sincere hopes that you are participating in other topical threads and other aspects of our community as vociferously as you are here.
Not yet, but I spied a StarCraft 2 thread that I might join in on.
On topic: My previous statement concerning M&J saying 'fuck it' and doing nothing in regards to the one-sided view that has spread through the games press? That was wrong. They need to spin out some damage control, and the sooner, the better.
They need to bite the bullet and issue a public apology, a very fucking detailed explanation of events leading up to where we are right now that can drive home the point that this isn't some kind of man versus woman war -- at the very least.
On top of that, a donation to some rape victims/ feminist agenda charity? I don't know. But the way this is going with regards to the people that give them coverage and patronage is going to irreparably
damage PAX as a core event. It's already happening.
Offering any more legitimacy to these crazies is the last thing they need to do.
Part of the problem is that people on each said are tempted to attack the crazies on the other side, while being seen as attacking the reasonable people and associating with crazies on their own side. While there may be crazies out there, there are still good reasonable people, some who I'm sure are part of this community, who have also been caught up in G&T's responses. At the very least I think there should be some attempt to examine which members of each side are really deserving of ire.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to welcome all our new posters with recent join dates and low post counts and express my sincere hopes that you are participating in other topical threads and other aspects of our community as vociferously as you are here.
Not yet, but I spied a StarCraft 2 thread that I might join in on.
On topic: My previous statement concerning M&J saying 'fuck it' and doing nothing in regards to the one-sided view that has spread through the games press? That was wrong. They need to spin out some damage control, and the sooner, the better.
They need to bite the bullet and issue a public apology, a very fucking detailed explanation of events leading up to where we are right now that can drive home the point that this isn't some kind of man versus woman war -- at the very least.
On top of that, a donation to some rape victims/ feminist agenda charity? I don't know. But the way this is going with regards to the people that give them coverage and patronage is going to irreparably
damage PAX as a core event. It's already happening.
Offering any more legitimacy to these crazies is the last thing they need to do.
They need to do whatever they need to do to make this go away right now, and if whatever it is they needs to do can change people's minds from the ideas I've covered before all's the better. The people I'm talking with in the press about this and what they think are not people running blogs with a few friends. These are people who write for big places.
The average fan comes to Penny Arcade three times a week for a comic and a small news post. They go to big blogs and websites every day to read that stuff, and if these writers are already taking action to refund their PAX tickets and travel accommodations, what is going to happen when they have to write about PAX? That distaste they are feeling for PA over misconceptions is going to leak into their writing. That's bad.
I made a post a few pages back about how to the people (specifically games press) suddenly observing this shit from the outside over the past week are interpreting it and informing each other as, quoted again from twitter, "i don't think there's a better example of cisgendered white male entitlement than the whole dickwolves thing going on right now."
It's messed up, and PA needs to stamp this down ASAP.
I think the most reasonable thing to expect is for them to privately discuss things with the few prominent people with reasoned objections, and then make a public statement.
I don't think an apology is required, but some kind of demonstration that they get the reasoned complaints would be good.
Here's an example:
We made the mistake of conflating the batshit loco minority with the sensible majority, and ended up offending people whose opinions matter to us.
We're genuinely sorry about our flippant treatment of serious matters in response to the antagonistic minority, and we'll avoid engaging with them in the future.
MKR on
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Yeah I dont think they should apologize to anyone associated with shakesville caus theyre fucking nuts
I mean, the first 2 points are good, but the 3rd point is full of bullshit. Like:
The cartoon implied that rape is less common than it is, that rape culture isn’t real, and that the whole subject is beneath you.
Which the second comic did none of.
That's debatable at best. By engaging with the criticism at a pretty superficial level ("It's possible that you read our cartoon, and became a rapist as a direct result.") they do seem to imply that they don't care to examine things further.
Frankly though, I think it's perfectly understandable to react to it. It's not like being accused of being a rape apologist or the like is small beans. That's pretty fucking offensive.
More or less offensive than a--perceived, because that's what really matters when playing at the Offended Olympics--rape joke?
I think the most reasonable thing to expect is for them to privately discuss things with the few prominent people with reasoned objections, and then make a public statement.
I don't think an apology is required, but some kind of demonstration that they get the reasoned complaints would be good.
Here's an example:
We made the mistake of conflating the batshit loco minority with the sensible majority, and ended up offending people whose opinions matter to us.
We're genuinely sorry about our flippant treatment of serious matters in response to the antagonistic minority, and we'll avoid engaging with them in the future.
Frankly the batshit loco segment of the feminist blog community has already scented blood, anything said to or about them now will just be adding fuel to the fire.
And yes having to write that sentence in complete sincerity made me die a little inside.
I mean, the first 2 points are good, but the 3rd point is full of bullshit. Like:
The cartoon implied that rape is less common than it is, that rape culture isn’t real, and that the whole subject is beneath you.
Which the second comic did none of.
That's debatable at best. By engaging with the criticism at a pretty superficial level ("It's possible that you read our cartoon, and became a rapist as a direct result.") they do seem to imply that they don't care to examine things further.
No, they imply that the idea that the original comic supported, condoned or caused rape is ridiculous. That's the entire point of the comic. To demonstrate the absurdity of the claim. And they are correct.
You can say the second comic wasn't a good idea from a PR stand-point, but it's dead on. The first comic had nothing to do with rape or rape culture or whatever and the implications that it did are ridiculous.
Frankly though, I think it's perfectly understandable to react to it. It's not like being accused of being a rape apologist or the like is small beans. That's pretty fucking offensive.
More or less offensive than a--perceived, because that's what really matters when playing at the Offended Olympics--rape joke?
Actually the perceived part is very important here.
But being accused of being a rape apologist or pro-rape or whatever is a hell of alot more offensive then a joke involving rape. For one, only one of those 2 things is a direct attack on the person in question.
You know what the best thing they can do is? And I mean it with all sincerity and respect and love for the guy, but: muzzle Gabe. Gabe should not be the PR guy for PA. I don't know that Tycho necessarily should be either, although I think he probably would be better, but Gabe's shown that he doesn't really have the temperament to handle being the public face.
At the very least, Tycho engaging with Shakesville would have been way more entertaining and subtle than Gabe's posts there.
I think if we want to talk about culture at all it should be an in depth look at why rape was the funnier choice.
The rape had nothing to do with the actual joke. The joke was merely and only about the logical disconnect between real life logic and what gameplay design does to "reality" in games.
Like the dead space comic. I highly fucking doubt that because he smashes the corpse for money, that anyone would think PA demeans corpse mutilation.
The joke would have been the exact same if it were beat, burned or made to watch Gilmore Girl re-runs. But maybe not as funny as rape.
Why? Because to enhance the joke about what one would expect versus what quest design actually does, the most extreme example applies. It's in the fabric of the joke how severe and terrible is that it's the most absurd attatchment for that.
All that being said, I understand it is their response to the comic that is causing "us" people to be upset, but if their obviouls implications are true that they were made out to be "pro-rape" then I understand, frankly. And there is still talk going on that the comic "demeans" rape or "desensitizes" people to it, which is patently absurd. And the blog post recently linked does miss the point of the comic, and runs in a totally illogical direction from there.
You know what the best thing they can do is? And I mean it with all sincerity and respect and love for the guy, but: muzzle Gabe. Gabe should not be the PR guy for PA. I don't know that Tycho necessarily should be either, although I think he probably would be better, but Gabe's shown that he doesn't really have the temperament to handle being the public face.
At the very least, Tycho engaging with Shakesville would have been way more entertaining and subtle than Gabe's posts there.
Gabe kinda catches a bad rap. There was that one time where he mentioned on PATV or something that he thought Pick Up Artists were just guys that helped you get up the courage to talk to girls.
You know what the best thing they can do is? And I mean it with all sincerity and respect and love for the guy, but: muzzle Gabe. Gabe should not be the PR guy for PA. I don't know that Tycho necessarily should be either, although I think he probably would be better, but Gabe's shown that he doesn't really have the temperament to handle being the public face.
At the very least, Tycho engaging with Shakesville would have been way more entertaining and subtle than Gabe's posts there.
Gabe kinda catches a bad rap. There was that one time where he mentioned on PATV or something that he thought Pick Up Artists were just guys that helped you get up the courage to talk to girls.
Yeah. Then when someone asked him to clarify he turned out to actually believe in what PUAs are spouting. A real person believing in this shit is a lot more unsettling than a cartoon caricature.
If rape comes with a lot of jokes, then rape will seem less terrible, or we'll find excuses to make it NOT rape. It's how our culture treats rape.
Can you back up this claim, because if you can't it would really help move things along if you stop promulgating this idea.
This blog does a decent job of explaining how it works. And it's less crazy. Everybody wins.
She compared this situation to Pavlov training dogs. So every time we hear a rape joke we salivate? Or do we rape someone when we hear a bell. I'm confused.
That blog is an example of someone who pretty much has absolutely no idea of what's going on with that strip.
Except, you know, where she explains the strip after the first sentence.
Ugh.
Wait, are you talking about this?
Wednesday’s Penny Arcade told this joke where a hero insisted on leaving a rape victim in his own personal hell. Why? Because there was no reward! Har har! Ho ho! See what they did there? They made someone continue to suffer because the hero wasn’t going to get paid for it! Cue the Benny Hill music already!
Because, um, that's not an explanation of the strip.
That's an inflamatory (and intentionally assholish) interpretation of the stip that glosses over what the joke in the strip was about so the author can get on with the outraging. It does not explain the humor behind the comic at all. The author is pretty clearly wants to make the strip about poking fun at rape victims. The problem is anyone who understands what the strip is about knows that it's actually about the absurdity of MMO quests.
I think the most reasonable thing to expect is for them to privately discuss things with the few prominent people with reasoned objections, and then make a public statement.
I don't think an apology is required, but some kind of demonstration that they get the reasoned complaints would be good.
Here's an example:
We made the mistake of conflating the batshit loco minority with the sensible majority, and ended up offending people whose opinions matter to us.
We're genuinely sorry about our flippant treatment of serious matters in response to the antagonistic minority, and we'll avoid engaging with them in the future.
Frankly the batshit loco segment of the feminist blog community has already scented blood, anything said to or about them now will just be adding fuel to the fire.
And yes having to write that sentence in complete sincerity made me die a little inside.
It's not for them though. It's for the people who are still very much pro-PA/on the fence, but felt a little awkward about their response.
It's possible (and desirable) to speak past the loco contingent while speaking directly to the sensible people.
You know what the best thing they can do is? And I mean it with all sincerity and respect and love for the guy, but: muzzle Gabe. Gabe should not be the PR guy for PA. I don't know that Tycho necessarily should be either, although I think he probably would be better, but Gabe's shown that he doesn't really have the temperament to handle being the public face.
At the very least, Tycho engaging with Shakesville would have been way more entertaining and subtle than Gabe's posts there.
God this.
The best thing they can do is not issue an apology but just fucking stop. Every time Mike tweets something it just gets worse and worse.
And yes, I would have rather seen Jerry engage in this debate, at least then it would have been slightly more honest then just a bunch of nervous jokes that just antagonize.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Yeah. Then when someone asked him to clarify he turned out to actually believe in what PUAs are spouting. A real person believing in this shit is a lot more unsettling than a cartoon caricature.
The way I remember is that he said something about it on the news page, Tycho was like "do what?" and then an episode of PATV had him mention something like what I mentioned earlier.
No, they imply that the idea that the original comic supported, condoned or caused rape is ridiculous. That's the entire point of the comic. To demonstrate the absurdity of the claim. And they are correct.
Any text that is more complex than a single phrase (and even some as simple as just that) can have multiple interpretations. You may agree with only one, but that doesn't mean it's the only one, or even the only viable one.
Frankly though, I think it's perfectly understandable to react to it. It's not like being accused of being a rape apologist or the like is small beans. That's pretty fucking offensive.
More or less offensive than a--perceived, because that's what really matters when playing at the Offended Olympics--rape joke?
Actually the perceived part is very important here.
But being accused of being a rape apologist or pro-rape or whatever is a hell of alot more offensive then a joke involving rape. For one, only one of those 2 things is a direct attack on the person in question.
I might argue that the more offensive thing is the one that actually references someone's traumatic history.
An attempt to speak up in defense of Penny Arcade while still making it clear that some of what they did was quite insensitive can be found here.
I don't wish to do self-promotion, but I figured that someone might be interested in reading something remotely approaching a reasoned discussion of this sort of thing.
No, they imply that the idea that the original comic supported, condoned or caused rape is ridiculous. That's the entire point of the comic. To demonstrate the absurdity of the claim. And they are correct.
Any text that is more complex than a single phrase (and even some as simple as just that) can have multiple interpretations. You may agree with only one, but that doesn't mean it's the only one, or even the only viable one.ue that the more offensive thing is the one that actually references someone's traumatic history.
Interpretations have to achieve at least some marginal standard of supportability and internal consistency.
No, they imply that the idea that the original comic supported, condoned or caused rape is ridiculous. That's the entire point of the comic. To demonstrate the absurdity of the claim. And they are correct.
Any text that is more complex than a single phrase (and even some as simple as just that) can have multiple interpretations. You may agree with only one, but that doesn't mean it's the only one, or even the only viable one.
Frankly though, I think it's perfectly understandable to react to it. It's not like being accused of being a rape apologist or the like is small beans. That's pretty fucking offensive.
More or less offensive than a--perceived, because that's what really matters when playing at the Offended Olympics--rape joke?
Actually the perceived part is very important here.
But being accused of being a rape apologist or pro-rape or whatever is a hell of alot more offensive then a joke involving rape. For one, only one of those 2 things is a direct attack on the person in question.
I might argue that the more offensive thing is the one that actually references someone's traumatic history.
Making a joke involving a theoretical and absurd rape is one thing. Elmer Fudd raping Donald Duck, for instance.
Talking to a friend who had been raped and they say, "God, I hate filling out taxes."
If you say, "At least it's not as bad as that time you were raped."
Yeah, that is not what anyone means when they talk about "rape jokes." Drop the thought. It's insulting and wrong.
I might argue that the more offensive thing is the one that actually references someone's traumatic history.
Was a man roused by savage blows every morning and every night raped to sleep by dickwolves. And then one day a hero came and saved five other slaves but him? Because unless that happened, then it isn't referencing someones traumatic history.
Is it an absurd conclusion to draw that there may be a solid correlation between "people who think the joke was about the actual rape" and "people who do not play MMOs"?
No, they imply that the idea that the original comic supported, condoned or caused rape is ridiculous. That's the entire point of the comic. To demonstrate the absurdity of the claim. And they are correct.
Any text that is more complex than a single phrase (and even some as simple as just that) can have multiple interpretations. You may agree with only one, but that doesn't mean it's the only one, or even the only viable one.ue that the more offensive thing is the one that actually references someone's traumatic history.
Interpretations have to achieve at least some marginal standard of supportability and internal consistency.
What's more offensive, mentioning the word rape in front of a rape victim or accusing someone of being a rapist?
I would abort that avenue of discussion. It isn't going to be anything but devisive and unhelpful. It's just pushing a bad point. It's the opposite of progress of discourse.
Posts
If you see a sign on a treehouse that says "No Larrys alowed" and your name is Larry, you go next door to the open tree house. Or you make your own treehouse with blackjack and self-empowered women.
Are you implying that a joke about MMOs with the word rape in them undermines all of those things?
Eh, not really.
I mean, the first 2 points are good, but the 3rd point is full of bullshit. Like: Which the second comic did none of.
However, the overall point that they should have just ignored the silly geese bloggers is right.
Frankly though, I think it's perfectly understandable to react to it. It's not like being accused of being a rape apologist or the like is small beans. That's pretty fucking offensive.
Overall, the redo of this whole bullshit has just made my opinion of places like Shakesville sink even lower, which I didn't think was really possible after the first time this shit came up.
Writing what happened in the comic does not mean one understands it.
Also, I'd still really like to know what horrible fate can the guy be the victim of if not rape.
You're pissing in the wind.
No, that's pure crazy right there.
I mean, I get you are trying to find something that talks about repeated use creating desensitization (or at least, that's what I think you are talking about) but that person just completely missed the point of the comic and went off on some crazy tangent.
Gabe and Tycho had a poor response comic which has GREATLY confused people, albeit in response to an overly dramatic blog post. The best solution would be to ignore it, and that's probably the best solution now.
That's my take on it, and I don't think we're going to make much headway on it if people keep coming in with the same misconceptions from the response comic. But that's all from me unless something major happens outside of twitter trolling from both sides. Which I doubt.
And she's wrong.
The comic is about how WoW and MMOs are mundane and mechanical and that people simply go through the cycles over and over to gain XP. Regardless of whatever is going on in the game it's just a place setting to increase your numbers. The joke is a play on how detached, unsympathetic, and single minded the gamer is, not on the victims suffering.
I know that the thing to say is that "you have to read the news post to understand PA comics". Yes, it's definitely a thing of theirs but it's still part of their whole shtick and no you don't get to write it off.
Not yet, but I spied a StarCraft 2 thread that I might join in on.
On topic: My previous statement concerning M&J saying 'fuck it' and doing nothing in regards to the one-sided view that has spread through the games press? That was wrong. They need to spin out some damage control, and the sooner, the better.
They need to bite the bullet and issue a public apology, a very fucking detailed explanation of events leading up to where we are right now that can drive home the point that this isn't some kind of man versus woman war -- at the very least.
On top of that, a donation to some rape victims/ feminist agenda charity? I don't know. But the way this is going with regards to the people that give them coverage and patronage is going to irreparably
damage PAX as a core event. It's already happening.
No. Mostly I'm saying that PA is bigger and tends to invite people to invest emotionally in the brand and its message(s) more than lots of other webcomics.
Offering any more legitimacy to these crazies is the last thing they need to do.
wait, what?
the slave looked like a man to me. was it supposed to be a woman?
why is this turning into a man vs. woman war?
wait, what the fuck is going on?
edit: also what connor said.
But there are like a thousand rape and other assorted jokes based off of horrible things that happen to people. If rape jokes desensitize people to accepting rape, or forms of rape, as acceptable then surely that site has contributed directly to at least one rape.
As you can see from my graph C&H would of caused at least one rape in the world.
Part of the problem is that people on each said are tempted to attack the crazies on the other side, while being seen as attacking the reasonable people and associating with crazies on their own side. While there may be crazies out there, there are still good reasonable people, some who I'm sure are part of this community, who have also been caught up in G&T's responses. At the very least I think there should be some attempt to examine which members of each side are really deserving of ire.
They need to do whatever they need to do to make this go away right now, and if whatever it is they needs to do can change people's minds from the ideas I've covered before all's the better. The people I'm talking with in the press about this and what they think are not people running blogs with a few friends. These are people who write for big places.
The average fan comes to Penny Arcade three times a week for a comic and a small news post. They go to big blogs and websites every day to read that stuff, and if these writers are already taking action to refund their PAX tickets and travel accommodations, what is going to happen when they have to write about PAX? That distaste they are feeling for PA over misconceptions is going to leak into their writing. That's bad.
edit: @Ketherial
I made a post a few pages back about how to the people (specifically games press) suddenly observing this shit from the outside over the past week are interpreting it and informing each other as, quoted again from twitter, "i don't think there's a better example of cisgendered white male entitlement than the whole dickwolves thing going on right now."
It's messed up, and PA needs to stamp this down ASAP.
I don't think an apology is required, but some kind of demonstration that they get the reasoned complaints would be good.
Here's an example:
More or less offensive than a--perceived, because that's what really matters when playing at the Offended Olympics--rape joke?
Frankly the batshit loco segment of the feminist blog community has already scented blood, anything said to or about them now will just be adding fuel to the fire.
And yes having to write that sentence in complete sincerity made me die a little inside.
No, they imply that the idea that the original comic supported, condoned or caused rape is ridiculous. That's the entire point of the comic. To demonstrate the absurdity of the claim. And they are correct.
You can say the second comic wasn't a good idea from a PR stand-point, but it's dead on. The first comic had nothing to do with rape or rape culture or whatever and the implications that it did are ridiculous.
Actually the perceived part is very important here.
But being accused of being a rape apologist or pro-rape or whatever is a hell of alot more offensive then a joke involving rape. For one, only one of those 2 things is a direct attack on the person in question.
At the very least, Tycho engaging with Shakesville would have been way more entertaining and subtle than Gabe's posts there.
The rape had nothing to do with the actual joke. The joke was merely and only about the logical disconnect between real life logic and what gameplay design does to "reality" in games.
Like the dead space comic. I highly fucking doubt that because he smashes the corpse for money, that anyone would think PA demeans corpse mutilation.
The joke would have been the exact same if it were beat, burned or made to watch Gilmore Girl re-runs. But maybe not as funny as rape.
Why? Because to enhance the joke about what one would expect versus what quest design actually does, the most extreme example applies. It's in the fabric of the joke how severe and terrible is that it's the most absurd attatchment for that.
All that being said, I understand it is their response to the comic that is causing "us" people to be upset, but if their obviouls implications are true that they were made out to be "pro-rape" then I understand, frankly. And there is still talk going on that the comic "demeans" rape or "desensitizes" people to it, which is patently absurd. And the blog post recently linked does miss the point of the comic, and runs in a totally illogical direction from there.
Gabe kinda catches a bad rap. There was that one time where he mentioned on PATV or something that he thought Pick Up Artists were just guys that helped you get up the courage to talk to girls.
There was a nice whaaargarrbble about that too.
But how endearing and innocent a thought!
Wait, are you talking about this?
Because, um, that's not an explanation of the strip.
That's an inflamatory (and intentionally assholish) interpretation of the stip that glosses over what the joke in the strip was about so the author can get on with the outraging. It does not explain the humor behind the comic at all. The author is pretty clearly wants to make the strip about poking fun at rape victims. The problem is anyone who understands what the strip is about knows that it's actually about the absurdity of MMO quests.
Which I would guess is why Sheep said that.
It's not for them though. It's for the people who are still very much pro-PA/on the fence, but felt a little awkward about their response.
It's possible (and desirable) to speak past the loco contingent while speaking directly to the sensible people.
God this.
The best thing they can do is not issue an apology but just fucking stop. Every time Mike tweets something it just gets worse and worse.
And yes, I would have rather seen Jerry engage in this debate, at least then it would have been slightly more honest then just a bunch of nervous jokes that just antagonize.
The way I remember is that he said something about it on the news page, Tycho was like "do what?" and then an episode of PATV had him mention something like what I mentioned earlier.
I might argue that the more offensive thing is the one that actually references someone's traumatic history.
I don't wish to do self-promotion, but I figured that someone might be interested in reading something remotely approaching a reasoned discussion of this sort of thing.
Interpretations have to achieve at least some marginal standard of supportability and internal consistency.
Making a joke involving a theoretical and absurd rape is one thing. Elmer Fudd raping Donald Duck, for instance.
Talking to a friend who had been raped and they say, "God, I hate filling out taxes."
If you say, "At least it's not as bad as that time you were raped."
Yeah, that is not what anyone means when they talk about "rape jokes." Drop the thought. It's insulting and wrong.
Was a man roused by savage blows every morning and every night raped to sleep by dickwolves. And then one day a hero came and saved five other slaves but him? Because unless that happened, then it isn't referencing someones traumatic history.
Or am I beating a dead horse with that one.
Exactly.
You might, but you'd be wrong.
What's more offensive, mentioning the word rape in front of a rape victim or accusing someone of being a rapist?
I would abort that avenue of discussion. It isn't going to be anything but devisive and unhelpful. It's just pushing a bad point. It's the opposite of progress of discourse.