Someone explain the dickwolves controversy to me

streever

Drez wrote: »

Modern Man wrote: »

streever wrote: »

Let me see if I follow you.

You find a drunk girl--so drunk she can't even speak, on the verge of blackout--you think it would be "partially her fault"? In what way at all is that her fault?

What if someone found you lying somewhere drunk? and they gruesomely murdered you? Would it be "your fault"?

you can't make things like this up. This is exactly what the people talking about rape culture find so upsetting.

People really need to stop using the word "fault" in this context. It's not the "fault" of the drunk girl that someone raped her. However, unwise decisions, such as drinking yourself unconscious, can lead to negative consequences.

If you get in a car with a drunk driver, you personally haven't done anything morally wrong. But, your unwise decision can lead to negative consequences for you.

I don't know why people have a problem with this concept. Making a bad decision can lead to bad consequences.

Every action we take can have negative consequences. Actions you would likely describe as totally innocuous can have negative repercussions. There is no link except what exists in your imagination between dressing sexy and increased rape, so we can put that in the same class of actions as "cross the street" or "get out of bed" as for alcohol or partying, these are things that men do too, so to suggest that a woman partaking in revelry is in any way responsible (or whatever non-inflammatory synonym you want to use) for the things perpetrated against her while partying or drunk or partying drunk you are engaging in irrelevant, harmful, divisive discourse.

I mean, what do you want here? You've more or less explicitly stated that women should not act with the same free range of action as men. Fuck that. Let's educate people on what constitutes rape. Let's provide adequate comfort and support for people who have been raped - which includes a prevalent culture that totally does away with anything that could even remotely be construed as victim-blaming or any euphemism for it - and let's punish the men that do it.

Rape is, in fact, a cultural problem of sorts, and this tangent we are on is simultaneously a symptom and an ongoing cause of that culture.

Right on, Drez.

skyknyt

Namrok wrote: »

So, I need to dig up the study, because it suddenly becomes relevant. It wasn't about rape, but it was about spousal abuse. People who abuse their spouse honestly believe its normal. Even though only a minority of people abuse their spouse, people who do believe everyone does.

Why do they believe everyone abuses their spouse, and thus, ok that they do? The rampant spouse-abuse hysteria that grips certain media outlets.

Thats right, the hysteria around inflated statistics like "more women are killed by their spouse than any other cause" or "1 in 3 women are raped" or "The superbowl pisses off so many men that they turn around and beat their wives" actually makes people who do this think its OK because everyone does it.

Inflated statistics and hysterical rhetoric actually accomplish the exact opposite of what they are intended to do.

Just saying is all. Something to keep in mind. Now I need to dig that study up for when someone says prove it. Off to go look. I'll edit a link in here when I find it.

I suspect the people who grow up in houses where abuse is the norm, and thus go on to abuse their spouses because of it, because they have no non-violent methods of interaction and conflict resolution at their (mental) disposal, would rationalize it by normalizing it with what they see on television.

BuhamutZeo

skyknyt wrote: »

I suspect the people who grow up in houses where abuse is the norm, and thus go on to abuse their spouses because of it, because they have no non-violent methods of interaction and conflict resolution at their (mental) disposal, would rationalize it by normalizing it with what they see on television.

When the hell did television enter the equation? It has nothing to do with this, which is PAs point, that the web comic cannot, IN ANY WAY, contribute to any future rapes or the failure to report incidents or bring justice to the victims.

And I don't recall seeing the 24/7 Rape Network on my channel list recently.

freakazoid

as for alcohol or partying, these are things that men do too,

Yeah, except men don't usually rape men, does happen but much lower than men raping women.

so to suggest that a woman partaking in revelry is in any way responsible (or whatever non-inflammatory synonym you want to use) for the things perpetrated against her while partying or drunk or partying drunk you are engaging in irrelevant, harmful, divisive discourse.

Certain types of parties there would be a much higher chance of it happening. When you go somewhere and do things where the chance of something is much much higher and the risk is well known that something bad could happen because of going, then you are partly to blame.

If someone was to gather a bunch of hardened criminal rapists in a building, and then a woman was to go into that building completely naked, she would be partly to blame for being raped. But again, that doesn't excuse the actions of the rapists.

Chake99

The Cat wrote: »

It isn't inherent at all. I'm sorry, but the bottom line is that if you can't even take the time to type the phrase into google without getting all het up, the problem isn't the phrase.

Drez wrote: »

Or maybe people bitch about the jargon solely so they have an excuse not to engage the topic, which seems much more likely to me. I agree that "inflammatory jargon" is counterproductive, but it is only counterproductive because people choose the path of lazy ignorance rather than thinking first and talking later. They see the words "rape culture" and rather than even bothering to investigate the meaning of that phrase, they just make assumptions and jump right into railing against it. Now, I ask you: Who is to blame here? The people using the term "rape culture" in earnest, or the people railing against it who haven't bothered to do a few minimal google searches to try and learn the meaning of the phrase?

Kistra wrote: »

I honestly don't understand. Why did you make that leap? Can you explain your thought processes? Why do you feel it is pointing fingers at anybody? Or calling anybody a rapist?

But when I first heard the term I instantly knew exactly what it was referring to and thought it was pretty brilliant shorthand because it got its meaning across so well. So I just don't understand all the anger against the name. And a bunch of posters just keep saying it is inflammatory and how you all thought it meant something very different than it does like it is obvious why you think that. Could you explain?

People will probably hate me for bringing the discussion back to this but I think the inflammatory nature of the phrase "rape culture" should be addressed a bit more. Yeah, what it denotes is a very real and very terrible phenomenon that should be fought.

The problem is the words rape and culture ALREADY HAVE MEANINGS. If one discusses middle-eastern culture, or video-game culture, or western business culture, or hip hope culture. It is IMMEDIATELY understood what the person is talking about. If I decide to talk about Nepalese culture people will understand what I'm saying even if they've never seen those two words besides each others.

If "rape-culture" has such a special meaning that someone has to google it and read some articles to understand what it means (which according to Cat and Drez they have to do), and such that anyone who interprets it under the existing paradigm that is used to understand ANY OTHER <insert> culture ends up misunderstanding the term in such a way that they believe people are being accused of being on the "same side" as rapists (which is an understandably offensive accusation) maybe there is a problem with the phrase. Under it's special meaning to say that someone's attitude contributes to "rape culture" is completely different than saying that someone is part of videogame culture.

To begin with, if someone is part of videogame culture, they probably play videogames.

The thing is, you can't make up a phrase of existing words and then get to assign whatever meaning you want. The meanings and baggage of the components are inextricably tied to your new term. And in this sense "rape culture" is an offensive term.

I'm not trying to say that it's evil, or maliciously designed, or a sign of how men are being oppressed, I just think the term is extremely stupid when one considers the intention behind its creation and use; and would have hoped that as people hyper-conscious of the importance of correct language (e.g. the connotations of gendered insults) that feminists would have been able to choose a more amenable term.

skyknyt

BuhamutZeo wrote: »

skyknyt wrote: »

I suspect the people who grow up in houses where abuse is the norm, and thus go on to abuse their spouses because of it, because they have no non-violent methods of interaction and conflict resolution at their (mental) disposal, would rationalize it by normalizing it with what they see on television.

When the hell did television enter the equation? It has nothing to do with this, which is PAs point, that the web comic cannot, IN ANY WAY, contribute to any future rapes or the failure to report incidents or bring justice to the victims.

And I don't recall seeing the 24/7 Rape Network on my channel list recently.

I'm sorry, I should have included the quote pyramind in my post - but I am having a discussion with Namrok regarding the likelihood of personally knowing a rapist, but not knowing that they were a rapist, and the extent to which hearing that rape is common normalizes rape.

PotatoNinja

freakazoid wrote: »

Certain types of parties there would be a much higher chance of it happening. When you go somewhere and do things where the chance of something is much much higher and the risk is well known that something bad could happen because of going, then you are partly to blame.

Please elaborate, how much blame (as a percentage) a woman bears for going to a rape party and which parties are cleared as "rape free" as opposed to "unsafe."

I'd just like to know where we stand on all of this, I'd hate to tell my sister its ok for her to go to a party when it is actually a totally not-ok rape party. Boy wouldn't I be embarrassed!

Tube

This is what Gabe just posted on the front page, and I wanted to repost here it to make sure it was seen.
"I think this has really gone too far. We have people on both sides of this ridiculous argument making death threats and worse. Kara was certainly upset to see someone mention on Twitter last night that it would be funny to come to my house and murder my wife and children. I know there are people who see themselves as being on our side that have made equally disgusting comments in the other direction. I want to make it very clear that I do not approve of this kind of bullshit.

I am certainly guilty of being snarky, sarcastic and rude. I apologize if that gave anyone the impression that I would ever condone this sort of behavior. If you are out there making these sorts of threats thinking that you are somehow doing our good work, please stop. I never should have engaged them at all much less the way I did. Obviously Courtney Stanton has been very vocal about her dislike of us and our behavior. But she is not censoring us, she has not stripped away our freedom of speech. She didn’t even have anything to do with our decision to remove the shirt. I’m sure she is just as upset with the threats being made by people who consider themselves her supporters. So I’m asking you to please leave her alone.

Personally I’m done with this argument and I’m asking you all to be done with it as well. Don’t go read the blogs, don’t respond to the Tweets, just let it go. Thank You.

-Gabe out