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This isn't a case where you're getting robbed with a couple windows open, this is a case where people picked the locks. You can't blame yourself for not having a perfect lock. What you can do is call your insurance company to replace what was stolen, give the police all the info you have and change the locks. Sony is now changing the locks. The shop is closed for that reason. It's kinda silly to shake your fist at them and expect them to stay open or give you free merchandise in that situation.
This is not like a picked lock at all, I'm sorry if you don't understand that.
If anything, this is more like the door got kicked in, wasn't fixed for months and then someone came in through the broken door.
One the security system is intact and operating as it should be. The other has had the security system made vulnerable and was not corrected.
I don't know why you have so much trouble using that metaphor, dude.
open window, open door = EVERYONE can see it's clearly open and easy to steal. It's completely obvious to absolutely everyone.
If that was the case, it'd probably be a lot easier to get free games, I probably would know myself, because it'd be obvious.
This isn't an obvious thing since it apparently requires people to roll back the updates, convert their retail system into a dev/debug system and, i think, use some 3rd party software. it sounds more complicated than "Walk through broken front door, steal everything" to me.
I'd love to see Fantastication2's house get robbed 10-20 years down the line and everyone just being like "lol you have noone to blame but yourself, man"
Edit: in honesty thats a horrible thing which I would never truely wish on someone, I mean it completely in jest.
I don't know why you have so much trouble using that metaphor, dude.
open window, open door = EVERYONE can see it's clearly open and easy to steal. It's completely obvious to absolutely everyone.
If that was the case, it'd probably be a lot easier to get free games, I probably would know myself, because it'd be obvious.
This isn't an obvious thing since it apparently requires people to roll back the updates, convert their retail system into a dev/debug system and, i think, use some 3rd party software. it sounds more complicated than "Walk through broken front door, steal everything" to me.
This comes from being a locksmith by trade.
How many random houses do you go up to and check whether the doors and windows are locked? None? You're an honest person.
How many houses does the dishonest person check? More than none.
Expect that the people looking at your security are interested in bypassing it. Expect that people will try to break it. If you know you have a glaring weakness, you fix it or do your best to fix it (what they're doing now, for instance).
What I simply don't understand is why they didn't consider this and put safeguards into place when they went after fail0verflow and geohot, knowing that all it took to turn a retail PS3 into a dev PS3 was some firmware/software.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited April 2011
I don't want to shit on the thread, by the way, but let's try to not make it a piracy thread until it's known 100% for sure that it was indeed the cause for this.
I have a few friends that are big pirates and they always justify the stuff the same way.
"It should be free if I can find it for free!"
Fantastication: "If it can be hacked, it sucks and deserves to be hacked!"
I don't even own a PS3, I don't think I ever will because I'm really a PC guy with a splash of Nintendo.
I don't think it deserves to be hacked, I'm saying that pretending that it will never be hacked is fucking stupid, especially when you've just had the security weakened.
Actually, I don't think so. A continuous outage is particularly memorable, compared to intermittent ones that people still remember anyway.
The people who paid for PSN+ are definitely going to remember.
I paid for Playstation Plus and, while I will remember (just like I remember the Xbox Live one a couple years back) I don't really care. It will likely end up being less than a week, and while it's a slight inconvenience, it's really not that big of a deal. I don't think they owe any one anything for the outage, other than an apology for the inconvenience, which they have already given a couple times.
Shit happens. Large companies are no more immune to unexpected problems than I am. I will give them the benefit of the doubt. I have used PSN for several years now, and overall, it has been pretty darn stable. A few days of downtime isn't the end of the world for me.
You don't think they owe you for the downtime for a service you paid for?
I agree the service being down isn't the end of the world, but they definitely owe the people who pay for it additional time for the period it was down.
I also find it funny that back when anonymous were hitting their servers they claimed it was just scheduled maintanence, and now that anonymous has backed off they are claiming it is outside influence.
No, I don't think they owe me. PS+ isn't like Xbox Live. I'm not paying for the services that are down right now. All of those services were/are free to non-paying members. PS+ gives me discounts, free games, and "cloud saving". I have downloaded several free games, which are already on my HDD. So all this is stopping me from doing is giving them money and using my discounts, or using the cloud save feature, which I haven't used yet anyway. So no, I don't feel that they owe me anything.
Just because I paid for PS+ doesn't mean those things that are free are suddenly owed to me at all times. They are still free. I am not paying for those things. That's not what PS+ is.
fail0verflow only really looked at it after OtherOS got removed. Same for other linux geeks, no doubt. When they started and the security started tumbling/looking shoddy, that's the timeframe you need to measure, but it's terribly difficult to do.
Not having tested your crypto implementation is not a good mark for security strength.
What I simply don't understand is why they didn't consider this and put safeguards into place when they went after fail0verflow and geohot, knowing that all it took to turn a retail PS3 into a dev PS3 was some firmware/software.
I believe right after those exploits were known to Sony, they forced a firmware update to get rid of the exploits. The thing is, every time you fix a security hole, all it leads to is people trying to find the weaknesses in the fix. Either they find some, which might get patched up, or they find another weak spot and try their luck there. And by fixing it now, they're basically doing what they should do, no?
This is less about leaving your windows open and a lot more about leaving a key lying around, not knowing it got duplicated, getting some weak locks picked and forgetting to lock a back door. it's not gaping security holes, it took some time for people to find them and Sony does what it can to fix it quickly usually. This time, they're going a bit deeper. They're pretty much doing what you say they should, no?
You can't blame the people taking advantage of a poorly designed system without also blaming the designers.
Sony cocked up so much of the PS3 security system, I'd be suprised if they didn't also cock up the PSN security.
Hey you can't blame thieves looting your house if it's not sufficiently secure!
More like you can't only blame thieves for looting your house if you locked all the doors but left all your ground floor windows wide open. If you were robbed in that exact situation I described, chances are you'd be kicking yourself for forgetting the windows were open.
The difference here is that Sony should have known the windows were open, since they were suing the guy that opened them in the first place.
I guarantee you if Sony had a third party design and develop their security systems, Sony would be suing them right now for incompetence.
If only she hadn't been wearing that short skirt, she wouldn't have been raped. I mean, you can't blame a guy for taking advantage of her when she clearly left herself wide open.
Regardless of Sony's own issues (and they are many), being taken advantage of is always the responsibility of the perpetrator.
In the real world, blame is not always a discrete thing, it is possible to share blame amongst the involved parties.
In this case, Sony is to blame for not considering the consequences of the issue and trying to sue it out of existence instead, while the people taking advantage of it are also to blame as they are terrible people.
Surely you could have made that argument without using THAT ol' canard.
I'm not surprised something like this has happened, as it's bound to happen in some form; no system is perfect. What would be sad if people use this as just another episode to Sony-Shit.
So a few people are able to download games for free and they shutdown their ENTIRE PSN NETWORK?
Millions of us are punished for the actions of a few... they could have left it up, done their security updates on dev servers and ban hammered the people who downloaded shit for free.
But no, taking down your production servers and then taking several days to update them is good too. ;_;
Definitely going to start moving away from Sony products...
In the real world, blame is not always a discrete thing, it is possible to share blame amongst the involved parties.
In this case, Sony is to blame for not considering the consequences of the issue and trying to sue it out of existence instead, while the people taking advantage of it are also to blame as they are terrible people.
So in the event of someone being raped - blame isn't discrete?
Sadly, that's the risk they take (and presumably sign an agreement that waives Sony's liability) when they publish something.
You could argue that it's riskier than if it were an open platform because they could verify it, but I don't think that's really fair with such a complex system.
How long had the PS3 been out before it was jailbroken? Years.
The thing had fantastic security.
Dude. Don't be reasonable, that's just not how we do it in these parts.
:P
Uh, to be fair, even though it took a number of years in the end it was due to shitty security on Sony's part. Sony was supposed to use a random number in their encryption, and they just used the same constant number instead. This was mind-bogglingly stupid, and why they can't fix things without them being broken again in a matter of days.
It doesn't justify theft, and I doubt I'd say Sony 'deserved' what they got, but it's still stupid that they didn't implement the security the way it was designed.
In the real world, blame is not always a discrete thing, it is possible to share blame amongst the involved parties.
In this case, Sony is to blame for not considering the consequences of the issue and trying to sue it out of existence instead, while the people taking advantage of it are also to blame as they are terrible people.
So in the event of someone being raped - blame isn't discrete?
blame is not always a discrete thing
not always
Alternatively: Sometimes blame isn't discrete.
Also, rape is not really comparable to copyright infringement.
Oh lord. Can we please, please, PLEASE stop all this debate about piracy before this thread gets shut down? Remember, the mods don't take kindly to any justification of the yo ho ho lifestyle, and there's no changing that.
I'd really like to keep this thread open to keep people updated on what's going on with PSN.
cloudeagle on
Switch: 3947-4890-9293
0
Descendant XSkyrim is my god now.Outpost 31Registered Userregular
Oh lord. Can we please, please, PLEASE stop all this debate about piracy before this thread gets shut down? Remember, the mods don't take kindly to any justification of the yo ho ho lifestyle, and there's no changing that.
I'd really like to keep this thread open to keep people updated on what's going on with PSN.
Hey Cloudeagle, I just noticed the thread name change. Did you just change it in the last hour or so? Is there something that you've read that nobody has posted?
Descendant X on
Garry: I know you gentlemen have been through a lot, but when you find the time I'd rather not spend the rest of the winter TIED TO THIS FUCKING COUCH!
Oh lord. Can we please, please, PLEASE stop all this debate about piracy before this thread gets shut down? Remember, the mods don't take kindly to any justification of the yo ho ho lifestyle, and there's no changing that.
I'd really like to keep this thread open to keep people updated on what's going on with PSN.
Hey Cloudeagle, I just noticed the thread name change. Did you just change it in the last hour or so? Is there something that you've read that nobody has posted?
Yeah, just got here in the last hour. I put the latest message from the playstation blog in the OP, but I think that one was posted in the thread quite a bit back.
In the real world, blame is not always a discrete thing, it is possible to share blame amongst the involved parties.
In this case, Sony is to blame for not considering the consequences of the issue and trying to sue it out of existence instead, while the people taking advantage of it are also to blame as they are terrible people.
So in the event of someone being raped - blame isn't discrete?
blame is not always a discrete thing
not always
Alternatively: Sometimes blame isn't discrete.
Also, rape is not really comparable to copyright infringement.
You didn't really answer my question and dodged it well enough, but I'll drop it.
You didn't really answer my question and dodged it well enough, but I'll drop it.
You were asking a stupid question, sorry. I never claimed that blame is never discrete, so you don't have to ask me about every possible atrocity that can be performed to try and catch me out in something to not even be able to prove a point.
Back onto the topic instead of weird rape tangent: I'm of two minds whether PSN coming back up quickly would be a good thing or a bad thing.
You'd kind of hope they'd really make sure the new security was solid before bringing it up, and I can't really see how you'd manage that in a short period of time. If they screw it up again then people will get just a touch pissed off.
Conversely then the longer you leave it down the more people get pissed off anyway.
Aye, they put out a new firmware pretty quickly, but it was then hacked again within a matter of hours.
3.56 was. 3.6 is secure. One particular hacker claims to have extracted the keys but isn't distributing them, but he has a habit of saying things like that.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited April 2011
I was thinking yesterday that if the explanation behind this is small or big, Sony loses either way big time. A small issue causing days' worth of downtime means they're incompetent. If it's a big huge error on their part, it means they're incompetent. And if it was a huge hack / piracy thing, they're incompetent.
Henroid on
0
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
I was thinking yesterday that if the explanation behind this is small or big, Sony loses either way big time. A small issue causing days' worth of downtime means they're incompetent. If it's a big huge error on their part, it means they're incompetent. And if it was a huge hack / piracy thing, they're incompetent.
We already know their incompetent so it won't really be much of a surprise regardless, unless it's a non-Anonymous pirate hack, in which case it will be interesting to see who done PSN a skinny.
Also, PSN is still down and it's M32-Hammer only weekend on Uncharted 2. I am a sad panda.
Corehealer on
0
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited April 2011
I know "lolsony" is fun times and all that, but several days? Of almost everything being down? That's pretty spectacularly crappy. I genuinely did not expect something like this out of Sony, even after all their other shenanigans.
Posts
I don't know why you have so much trouble using that metaphor, dude.
open window, open door = EVERYONE can see it's clearly open and easy to steal. It's completely obvious to absolutely everyone.
If that was the case, it'd probably be a lot easier to get free games, I probably would know myself, because it'd be obvious.
This isn't an obvious thing since it apparently requires people to roll back the updates, convert their retail system into a dev/debug system and, i think, use some 3rd party software. it sounds more complicated than "Walk through broken front door, steal everything" to me.
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
"It should be free if I can find it for free!"
Fantastication: "If it can be hacked, it sucks and deserves to be hacked!"
Tell them I'm coming over to find their computers for free.
Edit: in honesty thats a horrible thing which I would never truely wish on someone, I mean it completely in jest.
Even if it takes you 2 years to break in.
I'm not justifying people exploiting it at all. Having a security issue and expecting people not to take advantage of it is naive at best.
Always expect that someone will attempt to do something in a non-legimate way and prepare defenses against that.
This comes from being a locksmith by trade.
How many random houses do you go up to and check whether the doors and windows are locked? None? You're an honest person.
How many houses does the dishonest person check? More than none.
Expect that the people looking at your security are interested in bypassing it. Expect that people will try to break it. If you know you have a glaring weakness, you fix it or do your best to fix it (what they're doing now, for instance).
What I simply don't understand is why they didn't consider this and put safeguards into place when they went after fail0verflow and geohot, knowing that all it took to turn a retail PS3 into a dev PS3 was some firmware/software.
Steam
(See: PSP)
I don't even own a PS3, I don't think I ever will because I'm really a PC guy with a splash of Nintendo.
I don't think it deserves to be hacked, I'm saying that pretending that it will never be hacked is fucking stupid, especially when you've just had the security weakened.
Steam
Just because I paid for PS+ doesn't mean those things that are free are suddenly owed to me at all times. They are still free. I am not paying for those things. That's not what PS+ is.
XBL: UnderHero5
Steam/PSN: UnderHero5
fail0verflow only really looked at it after OtherOS got removed. Same for other linux geeks, no doubt. When they started and the security started tumbling/looking shoddy, that's the timeframe you need to measure, but it's terribly difficult to do.
Not having tested your crypto implementation is not a good mark for security strength.
Steam
I believe right after those exploits were known to Sony, they forced a firmware update to get rid of the exploits. The thing is, every time you fix a security hole, all it leads to is people trying to find the weaknesses in the fix. Either they find some, which might get patched up, or they find another weak spot and try their luck there. And by fixing it now, they're basically doing what they should do, no?
This is less about leaving your windows open and a lot more about leaving a key lying around, not knowing it got duplicated, getting some weak locks picked and forgetting to lock a back door. it's not gaping security holes, it took some time for people to find them and Sony does what it can to fix it quickly usually. This time, they're going a bit deeper. They're pretty much doing what you say they should, no?
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
If only she hadn't been wearing that short skirt, she wouldn't have been raped. I mean, you can't blame a guy for taking advantage of her when she clearly left herself wide open.
Regardless of Sony's own issues (and they are many), being taken advantage of is always the responsibility of the perpetrator.
In the real world, blame is not always a discrete thing, it is possible to share blame amongst the involved parties.
In this case, Sony is to blame for not considering the consequences of the issue and trying to sue it out of existence instead, while the people taking advantage of it are also to blame as they are terrible people.
Steam
I'm not surprised something like this has happened, as it's bound to happen in some form; no system is perfect. What would be sad if people use this as just another episode to Sony-Shit.
What about the developers and publishers that are having their games stolen?
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Millions of us are punished for the actions of a few... they could have left it up, done their security updates on dev servers and ban hammered the people who downloaded shit for free.
But no, taking down your production servers and then taking several days to update them is good too. ;_;
Definitely going to start moving away from Sony products...
So in the event of someone being raped - blame isn't discrete?
You could argue that it's riskier than if it were an open platform because they could verify it, but I don't think that's really fair with such a complex system.
Steam
Uh, to be fair, even though it took a number of years in the end it was due to shitty security on Sony's part. Sony was supposed to use a random number in their encryption, and they just used the same constant number instead. This was mind-bogglingly stupid, and why they can't fix things without them being broken again in a matter of days.
It doesn't justify theft, and I doubt I'd say Sony 'deserved' what they got, but it's still stupid that they didn't implement the security the way it was designed.
blame is not always a discrete thing
not always
Alternatively: Sometimes blame isn't discrete.
Also, rape is not really comparable to copyright infringement.
Steam
Worst case scenario, all they did is "steal" some bandwidth from Sony.
If anything, Sony stole OtherOS from us.
I'd really like to keep this thread open to keep people updated on what's going on with PSN.
Hey Cloudeagle, I just noticed the thread name change. Did you just change it in the last hour or so? Is there something that you've read that nobody has posted?
Yeah, just got here in the last hour. I put the latest message from the playstation blog in the OP, but I think that one was posted in the thread quite a bit back.
You didn't really answer my question and dodged it well enough, but I'll drop it.
You were asking a stupid question, sorry. I never claimed that blame is never discrete, so you don't have to ask me about every possible atrocity that can be performed to try and catch me out in something to not even be able to prove a point.
Back onto the topic instead of weird rape tangent: I'm of two minds whether PSN coming back up quickly would be a good thing or a bad thing.
You'd kind of hope they'd really make sure the new security was solid before bringing it up, and I can't really see how you'd manage that in a short period of time. If they screw it up again then people will get just a touch pissed off.
Conversely then the longer you leave it down the more people get pissed off anyway.
Steam
It will take them weeks to tell us if any personal info got stolen.
3.56 was. 3.6 is secure. One particular hacker claims to have extracted the keys but isn't distributing them, but he has a habit of saying things like that.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
That's not like you, surely you'll release them, just via an affiliated link?
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
He should probably just quietly hand them to the Prime Minister...
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
Hey guys, PSN is down and we don't know why and it sucks. I hope they fix it soon.
We already know their incompetent so it won't really be much of a surprise regardless, unless it's a non-Anonymous pirate hack, in which case it will be interesting to see who done PSN a skinny.
Also, PSN is still down and it's M32-Hammer only weekend on Uncharted 2. I am a sad panda.