Beer Bad, iirc, was their attempt to jump on the wagon of "If you do an episode of your show that serves as a PSA, the federal gov't will give you $$$"
And the episode did such a horrible job of it, they didn't get any money for it.
This thin layer of irony makes the episode tolerable, for me. Still the worst thing I've ever seen Whedon do.
Beer Bad had the problem of being in the beginning of season 4. It had Buffy being mopey about this fucking dick for no reason. And then the episode went for "omg don't go drink because it is bad!"
I watched it last night but skipped basically everything that was such bullshit. Buffy as a cavewoman is funny, everything prior to that isn't.
The Buffy being mopy thing was a good storyline, if annoying to watch. Considering she's really only had 1 serious boyfriend at this point, it's not hard to see her getting grifted.
Beer Bad, iirc, was their attempt to jump on the wagon of "If you do an episode of your show that serves as a PSA, the federal gov't will give you $$$"
And the episode did such a horrible job of it, they didn't get any money for it.
This thin layer of irony makes the episode tolerable, for me. Still the worst thing I've ever seen Whedon do.
Beer Bad had the problem of being in the beginning of season 4. It had Buffy being mopey about this fucking dick for no reason. And then the episode went for "omg don't go drink because it is bad!"
I watched it last night but skipped basically everything that was such bullshit. Buffy as a cavewoman is funny, everything prior to that isn't.
I wouldn't say it was for no reason. I mean,
the whole Angel becoming Angelus after Buffy slept with him is very similar to what happened between her and Parker but you know, no one died this time around.
Why the writers felt the need to hit us with that storyline again is beyond me though.
It's not about that, it's about her expectations of relationships. She figures cause he says he feels strongly for her, he means it. She doesn't even consider he's just saying whatever to sleep with her.
It's basically yet another round of "Buffy gets bitch-slapped by the real world" that S4 does.
It's not about that, it's about her expectations of relationships. She figures cause he says he feels strongly for her, he means it. She doesn't even consider he's just saying whatever to sleep with her.
It's basically yet another round of "Buffy gets bitch-slapped by the real world" that S4 does.
Early Buffy was about horror film tropes meet high school so Angelus was perfect. Fuck a boy and he becomes a monster. Buffy getting bitch slapped by the real world is a horrible idea for a show and that type of story never really worked.
Edit: except The Body which nailed it perfectly (but which I don't think really holds up for repeated viewings).
themightypuck on
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
The Body is definitely an episode that is amazing the first time you watch it, but after that it just doesn't have the same impact and just drags, and reminds me of real times like that which just suck and during those I just want to do anything, but spend time with people being sad.
Rewatching Angel Season 5. I just got done with Why We Fight. Not really so bad but more of an information dump for future episodes and character building (and explanations of a couple misc prior things) than a real episode. The one before that though You're Welcome... damn. The saddest thing. I forgot about that episode.
Rewatching Angel Season 5. I just got done with Why We Fight. Not really so bad but more of an information dump for future episodes and character building (and explanations of a couple misc prior things) than a real episode. The one before that though You're Welcome... damn. The saddest thing. I forgot about that episode.
Awesome things about "Why We Fight:"
1. Spike. "Free Virgin Blood Party."
2. Early Initiative.
3. Prince of Lies.
It's not about that, it's about her expectations of relationships. She figures cause he says he feels strongly for her, he means it. She doesn't even consider he's just saying whatever to sleep with her.
It's basically yet another round of "Buffy gets bitch-slapped by the real world" that S4 does.
Early Buffy was about horror film tropes meet high school so Angelus was perfect. Fuck a boy and he becomes a monster. Buffy getting bitch slapped by the real world is a horrible idea for a show and that type of story never really worked.
Edit: except The Body which nailed it perfectly (but which I don't think really holds up for repeated viewings).
Buffy was more about taking real world problems and then turning them into horror film tropes.
I don't know though, I can kinda understand where they were going with not always doing that though. At some point it just becomes ridiculous. Like with the earlier episode with her roommate where the whole "roommate from hell" thing actually being a roommate from hell just felt ... forced. It's like, real world problems still do exist too.
It's not about that, it's about her expectations of relationships. She figures cause he says he feels strongly for her, he means it. She doesn't even consider he's just saying whatever to sleep with her.
It's basically yet another round of "Buffy gets bitch-slapped by the real world" that S4 does.
Early Buffy was about horror film tropes meet high school so Angelus was perfect. Fuck a boy and he becomes a monster. Buffy getting bitch slapped by the real world is a horrible idea for a show and that type of story never really worked.
Edit: except The Body which nailed it perfectly (but which I don't think really holds up for repeated viewings).
Buffy was more about taking real world problems and then turning them into horror film tropes.
I don't know though, I can kinda understand where they were going with not always doing that though. At some point it just becomes ridiculous. Like with the earlier episode with her roommate where the whole "roommate from hell" thing actually being a roommate from hell just felt ... forced. It's like, real world problems still do exist too.
But if you're writing a fantasy show, real world problems shouldn't be your primary focus too often, or else they turn into "Doublemeat Palace"
Superstar was pretty bad. But it was self-aware and purposefully bad. As if the writers said to themselves "let's film an episode that's as bad as most of the rest of the drek that's on television right now!"
or "let's show the viewers how bad this series could be if we geniuses weren't writing it!"
It didn't even have a good B story like Beer Bad did. The ending in the realverse was okay, but overall it was totally skippable.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
It was definitely self-aware, but I wouldn't call Superstar bad. It was the show having fun with itself. It was deliberately over-earnest and goofy, just like Jonathon himself, and I think it worked great as a one-off.
Most shows that are bad would do something like Superstar but they would actually mean it, which is why they are bad.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
The Buffy being mopy thing was a good storyline, if annoying to watch. Considering she's really only had 1 serious boyfriend at this point, it's not hard to see her getting grifted.
Oh it's a very realistic story line, it's just that I like Buffy when it's crazy monsters and the slayage thereof and not "real world problems yo!".
Maybe it's just that this particular story just wasn't for me, I like the rest of the season fine and never had a problem with Buffy having for reals emotions before.
Flipping on the French audio track is always hilarious for me. Apparently "The Slayer" in French is "La Tueuse" which translates back into the english roughly as "The Killer".
I remember hearing that vamps weren't originally going to turn to dust when they died, but Joss decided that if she had to bury bodies and such it would feel too serial killery.
I remember hearing that vamps weren't originally going to turn to dust when they died, but Joss decided that if she had to bury bodies and such it would feel too serial killery.
They also don't fly because it would cost too much.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
I remember hearing that vamps weren't originally going to turn to dust when they died, but Joss decided that if she had to bury bodies and such it would feel too serial killery.
They also don't fly because it would cost too much.
On the other hand they did have fucking claws in the first few episodes.
I remember hearing that vamps weren't originally going to turn to dust when they died, but Joss decided that if she had to bury bodies and such it would feel too serial killery.
They also don't fly because it would cost too much.
On the other hand they did have fucking claws in the first few episodes.
I can't think of a Buffy Season I thought was fully of shabby episodes on average right up until 7. That last damn season, I thought, thoroughly dragged and disappointed.
Caleb was boring, which is criminal for one of the last Big Bads.
Season 1 hasn't aged well, but I liked it at the time, Season 2 & 3 were really sharp...
Vampire Willow. Vampire fucking Willow
...and have aged really well, Season 4 is absolutely hilarious, Season 5's arc & Big Bad I found enjoyable and the opening episodes were cleverly put together, Season 6...
Featured a terrific plot twist with Willow becoming the Big Bad, and frankly she made an excellent Big Bad.
...and then the show kinda went off of a cliff as presumably the writers ran out of ideas or got sick of the show or whatever.
I've never watched what are apparently the best parts of Angel because I cannot make it through the first 2 episodes of season 1. Maybe it was good when it came out, but it's too awful today.
I can't think of a Buffy Season I thought was fully of shabby episodes on average right up until 7. That last damn season, I thought, thoroughly dragged and disappointed.
Caleb was boring, which is criminal for one of the last Big Bads.
Season 1 hasn't aged well, but I liked it at the time, Season 2 & 3 were really sharp...
Vampire Willow. Vampire fucking Willow
...and have aged really well, Season 4 is absolutely hilarious, Season 5's arc & Big Bad I found enjoyable and the opening episodes were cleverly put together, Season 6...
Featured a terrific plot twist with Willow becoming the Big Bad, and frankly she made an excellent Big Bad.
...and then the show kinda went off of a cliff as presumably the writers ran out of ideas or got sick of the show or whatever.
I've never watched what are apparently the best parts of Angel because I cannot make it through the first 2 episodes of season 1. Maybe it was good when it came out, but it's too awful today.
I gotta disagree. I feel that Angel has one of the most well put together first episodes of any show I've seen. Also the way it ends is just classic.
I gotta disagree. I feel that Angel has one of the most well put together first episodes of any show I've seen. Also the way it ends is just classic.
Okay. This is why I dislike the first episode of Angel:
Nothing feels at all organic. It's all forced. Angel rescues 2 white girls from a bar, maybe the most cliche'd thing ever, from some vampires. Then he goes to his secret hideout which, of course, has been infiltrated by Backstory Narration Device Guy so anyone who hasn't watched Buffy can be kinda-sorta brought up to speed. We then go through a thoroughly contrived fashion show-off for the ladies in the audience, then of course 'OH WOAH NOW ANGEL MUST PROTECT OLD POPULAR CHARACTER FROM BUFFY! I NEVER SAW THAT COMING!'. Of course, because the studio wants zero risk, they have Cordelia follow the riches to rags cliche so that the audience can identify with her more.
Naturally, Cordelia decides out of the blue after a terrifying experience with a vampire assailant that she wants to form a new Scooby gang and save souls / fight vampires in Los Angeles (I thought she left Sunnydale to get away from vampire hijinks? OH WELL I'M SURE THE AUDIENCE WILL HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT BY NOW).
...And then episode two:
Yes, I can totally believe that LAPD detectives are as incompetent as depicted in this episode. That is not a stretch at all.
Also, I totally did not see it coming that Angel would reconcile his differences with Detective Love Interest To Be by saving her life at some point during the episode.
The body-hopping demon is also plagiarized from the movie 'Fallen'.
I didn't mind det love interest until they decided to make her batshit crazy because they decided they didn't want her as det love interest any more.
Yeah. Kate could have been a good character but she took the wrong exit somewhere and ended in Annoyingville.
It took Angel a while before it figured out what it actually wanted to be, and I think the character of Kate is a dead end that resulted from that initial obscurity of vision.
@The Ender
You're in for a pretty wild ride with the rest of the series. A hell of a lot happens right in the first two seasons. I'd forgotten just how much.
That said, Angel season 1 is reallly well done, over all. Yeah, the writers were a little unsure of themselves. They weren't really sure where they wanted the series to go or end up at that point, but the season explores things and comes around and by season 2 you feel like things are pretty well established and ready to go.
Also, just a small point of order- things are used often and become cliches because they work. A trope is a trope and a cliche is a cliche because they're effective means of telling a story. Some are older than others, and some are easier/harder to do well than others, but it's basically just a literary devise, and it's extremely hard to find modern media that doesn't use bunches of tropes.
In fact there's a whole website that talks about that, and I am not enough of an asshole to link to it.
That said, Angel season 1 is reallly well done, over all. Yeah, the writers were a little unsure of themselves. They weren't really sure where they wanted the series to go or end up at that point, but the season explores things and comes around and by season 2 you feel like things are pretty well established and ready to go.
Also, just a small point of order- things are used often and become cliches because they work. A trope is a trope and a cliche is a cliche because they're effective means of telling a story. Some are older than others, and some are easier/harder to do well than others, but it's basically just a literary devise, and it's extremely hard to find modern media that doesn't use bunches of tropes.
In fact there's a whole website that talks about that, and I am not enough of an asshole to link to it.
You almost made it so I didn't go to bed just now.
Don't flatter yourself. The only reason I'm not linking to it is because I'd want to find a suitable page to link to, specifically. That would require going to the site myself, and I just don't have that kind of time.
I gotta disagree. I feel that Angel has one of the most well put together first episodes of any show I've seen. Also the way it ends is just classic.
Okay. This is why I dislike the first episode of Angel:
Nothing feels at all organic. It's all forced. Angel rescues 2 white girls from a bar, maybe the most cliche'd thing ever, from some vampires. Then he goes to his secret hideout which, of course, has been infiltrated by Backstory Narration Device Guy so anyone who hasn't watched Buffy can be kinda-sorta brought up to speed. We then go through a thoroughly contrived fashion show-off for the ladies in the audience, then of course 'OH WOAH NOW ANGEL MUST PROTECT OLD POPULAR CHARACTER FROM BUFFY! I NEVER SAW THAT COMING!'. Of course, because the studio wants zero risk, they have Cordelia follow the riches to rags cliche so that the audience can identify with her more.
Naturally, Cordelia decides out of the blue after a terrifying experience with a vampire assailant that she wants to form a new Scooby gang and save souls / fight vampires in Los Angeles (I thought she left Sunnydale to get away from vampire hijinks? OH WELL I'M SURE THE AUDIENCE WILL HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT BY NOW).
First up, the rescuing white girls from a bar is supposed to be cliche, then they purposely try and break the cliche by having Angel turn out to be a kind of sociopath anti hero. This is part of the setup for the entire series and sets the mood for it. He doesnt go to a secret hideout, he goes to one of the Buffyverse conveniently found low rent run down sewer access housing accomodations. I suppose they could devote an episode to Angel dealing with realtors and trying to find houses that will show after sundown, but that sounds boring as fuck. Cordelia started on that riches to rags cliche the year before while still on Buffy, so dont hate on Angel for simply expanding and including an existing character with great backstory and interesting worldview.
...And then episode two:
Yes, I can totally believe that LAPD detectives are as incompetent as depicted in this episode. That is not a stretch at all.
Also, I totally did not see it coming that Angel would reconcile his differences with Detective Love Interest To Be by saving her life at some point during the episode.
The body-hopping demon is also plagiarized from the movie 'Fallen'.
The LAPD isnt incompetent. They just assume all their cases can be answered with logic and conform to the known universe of reality and the laws of nature & physics. When they run into cases where that isnt the case, they are then unable to resolve or uncover them, this is to be expected.
Buffy started as "high school life meets horror film material." Peer pressure, mom pressure, sex pressure. Mostly just pressure.
But it evolved. It became less about that (Because there's only so far you can go on the premise) and more about the characters directly and their specific evolutions. It became a different show. It became more about Buffy completely. And where she fits in the world, her finding out who she is.
Not just my opinion. Joss Whedon's words directly. That is what the show became, and what he created. Was said at a comic-con interview.
I didn't mind det love interest until they decided to make her batshit crazy because they decided they didn't want her as det love interest any more.
Yeah. Kate could have been a good character but she took the wrong exit somewhere and ended in Annoyingville.
It took Angel a while before it figured out what it actually wanted to be, and I think the character of Kate is a dead end that resulted from that initial obscurity of vision.
I don't buy that. Kate has a very obvious arc throughout the series and the real dead end is that the actress left so they couldn't do anything with her going forward.
I'd say Angel took awhile to find it's footing, but that's true of any series. But where they wanted to go with that idea is fairly clear at the start. Although they do downplay certain elements they stared with.
Angel's whole "needing to connect with people to not become a monster" thing was dealt with after a fashion, but definitely not a big focus like it seemed it might be at first.
Also, you can't expect a ton from first episodes with Network TV. A pilot episode must sell the concept and that involves a very deliberate amount of cliche.
Also, just a small point of order- things are used often and become cliches because they work. A trope is a trope and a cliche is a cliche because they're effective means of telling a story. Some are older than others, and some are easier/harder to do well than others, but it's basically just a literary devise, and it's extremely hard to find modern media that doesn't use bunches of tropes.
Let me ask you something (this is assuming that you're old enough to go to bars and that you do sometimes go to bars): have you ever either personally 'rescued' a girl or multiple girls from nameless goons shortly after entering a bar? And then had said women fall all over you for rescuing them?
No?
Well, I think that's something you share with every human being on the planet, because that is something that never happens.
That's why it's a cliche; it's a boring, ham-fisted, idiotically unrealistic way of showing what a knightly saint your hero / anti-hero is, and it's been done a few million times because being a lazy writer is much more common than being a creative one.
I know it sounds totally crazy, but they might've tried - I dunno - having the character do things at a bar that people actually do at a bar. But if they did that they'd have to show who he is in more subtle ways, and golly gee that means I have to actually put some effort into this script.
It's fucking terrible to resort to that, and Whedon has no excuse for it.
They used it because it's a cliche. That's the whole point. It's the cliche one expects from a horror movie (followed by the cliche one expects from Buffy-esque turnabout on horror).
And then they slap you with the ending and instead of saving the girl and not taking advantage cause he's so noble, he almost attacks her and then slinks off in shame to try and maintain his composure.
The cliche is the set up for the punch-line. Because the point is to get you to think X and then go Y.
Also, just a small point of order- things are used often and become cliches because they work. A trope is a trope and a cliche is a cliche because they're effective means of telling a story. Some are older than others, and some are easier/harder to do well than others, but it's basically just a literary devise, and it's extremely hard to find modern media that doesn't use bunches of tropes.
Let me ask you something (this is assuming that you're old enough to go to bars and that you do sometimes go to bars): have you ever either personally 'rescued' a girl or multiple girls from nameless goons shortly after entering a bar? And then had said women fall all over you for rescuing them?
No?
Well, I think that's something you share with every human being on the planet, because that is something that never happens.
That's why it's a cliche; it's a boring, ham-fisted, idiotically unrealistic way of showing what a knightly saint your hero / anti-hero is, and it's been done a few million times because being a lazy writer is much more common than being a creative one.
I know it sounds totally crazy, but they might've tried - I dunno - having the character do things at a bar that people actually do at a bar. But if they did that they'd have to show who he is in more subtle ways, and golly gee that means I have to actually put some effort into this script.
It's fucking terrible to resort to that, and Whedon has no excuse for it.
Angel saving two women at the bar makes sense because that is an easy opportunity for vampires to pick up women. It's not like the guys are being jerks to the girls they are just being nice and trying to put the moves on them. Angel only saves them because the guys aren't looking for sex which would be find, but because they are going to suck their blood and kill them. They portray the bar scene more realistically in the second episode. Plus I doubt anybody here as the looks of David Boreanaz to make their bar experience similar to his.
Also, just a small point of order- things are used often and become cliches because they work. A trope is a trope and a cliche is a cliche because they're effective means of telling a story. Some are older than others, and some are easier/harder to do well than others, but it's basically just a literary devise, and it's extremely hard to find modern media that doesn't use bunches of tropes.
Let me ask you something (this is assuming that you're old enough to go to bars and that you do sometimes go to bars): have you ever either personally 'rescued' a girl or multiple girls from nameless goons shortly after entering a bar? And then had said women fall all over you for rescuing them?
No?
Well, I think that's something you share with every human being on the planet, because that is something that never happens.
That's why it's a cliche; it's a boring, ham-fisted, idiotically unrealistic way of showing what a knightly saint your hero / anti-hero is, and it's been done a few million times because being a lazy writer is much more common than being a creative one.
I know it sounds totally crazy, but they might've tried - I dunno - having the character do things at a bar that people actually do at a bar. But if they did that they'd have to show who he is in more subtle ways, and golly gee that means I have to actually put some effort into this script.
It's fucking terrible to resort to that, and Whedon has no excuse for it.
Angel saving two women at the bar makes sense because that is an easy opportunity for vampires to pick up women. It's not like the guys are being jerks to the girls they are just being nice and trying to put the moves on them. Angel only saves them because the guys aren't looking for sex which would be find, but because they are going to suck their blood and kill them. They portray the bar scene more realistically in the second episode. Plus I doubt anybody here as the looks of David Boreanaz to make their bar experience similar to his.
And it's not like "Vampires pick up easy chicks in bars as a source of food" isn't a well established part of the setting by this point.
Ep1 of Angel wasn't really subverting any cliches. It was just following the "evil creatures prey on vulnerable women in bars."
Ep1 of Buffy was a cliche subversion. Angel saving them then running off was just character development. It wasn't, "Oh, he isn't such a white knight!" Just my opinion, though.
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Maybe I'll watch the two back to back to remember. I think I like "Beer Bad" because Willow was basically awesome in that episode. :P
Just knocked out Hush, and The Gentlemen are the creepiest MotW ever.
All the pantomiming in the episode made me bust a gut laughing.
Beer Bad had the problem of being in the beginning of season 4. It had Buffy being mopey about this fucking dick for no reason. And then the episode went for "omg don't go drink because it is bad!"
I watched it last night but skipped basically everything that was such bullshit. Buffy as a cavewoman is funny, everything prior to that isn't.
I wouldn't say it was for no reason. I mean,
It's basically yet another round of "Buffy gets bitch-slapped by the real world" that S4 does.
Early Buffy was about horror film tropes meet high school so Angelus was perfect. Fuck a boy and he becomes a monster. Buffy getting bitch slapped by the real world is a horrible idea for a show and that type of story never really worked.
Edit: except The Body which nailed it perfectly (but which I don't think really holds up for repeated viewings).
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
{Twitter, Everybody's doing it. }{Writing and Story Blog}
Awesome things about "Why We Fight:"
1. Spike. "Free Virgin Blood Party."
2. Early Initiative.
3. Prince of Lies.
Buffy was more about taking real world problems and then turning them into horror film tropes.
I don't know though, I can kinda understand where they were going with not always doing that though. At some point it just becomes ridiculous. Like with the earlier episode with her roommate where the whole "roommate from hell" thing actually being a roommate from hell just felt ... forced. It's like, real world problems still do exist too.
But if you're writing a fantasy show, real world problems shouldn't be your primary focus too often, or else they turn into "Doublemeat Palace"
or "let's show the viewers how bad this series could be if we geniuses weren't writing it!"
It didn't even have a good B story like Beer Bad did. The ending in the realverse was okay, but overall it was totally skippable.
Most shows that are bad would do something like Superstar but they would actually mean it, which is why they are bad.
Oh it's a very realistic story line, it's just that I like Buffy when it's crazy monsters and the slayage thereof and not "real world problems yo!".
Maybe it's just that this particular story just wasn't for me, I like the rest of the season fine and never had a problem with Buffy having for reals emotions before.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
They also don't fly because it would cost too much.
On the other hand they did have fucking claws in the first few episodes.
Wait really? I don't remember that.
Season 1 hasn't aged well, but I liked it at the time, Season 2 & 3 were really sharp...
...and have aged really well, Season 4 is absolutely hilarious, Season 5's arc & Big Bad I found enjoyable and the opening episodes were cleverly put together, Season 6...
...and then the show kinda went off of a cliff as presumably the writers ran out of ideas or got sick of the show or whatever.
I've never watched what are apparently the best parts of Angel because I cannot make it through the first 2 episodes of season 1. Maybe it was good when it came out, but it's too awful today.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Okay. This is why I dislike the first episode of Angel:
Naturally, Cordelia decides out of the blue after a terrifying experience with a vampire assailant that she wants to form a new Scooby gang and save souls / fight vampires in Los Angeles (I thought she left Sunnydale to get away from vampire hijinks? OH WELL I'M SURE THE AUDIENCE WILL HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT BY NOW).
...And then episode two:
Also, I totally did not see it coming that Angel would reconcile his differences with Detective Love Interest To Be by saving her life at some point during the episode.
The body-hopping demon is also plagiarized from the movie 'Fallen'.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Yeah. Kate could have been a good character but she took the wrong exit somewhere and ended in Annoyingville.
It took Angel a while before it figured out what it actually wanted to be, and I think the character of Kate is a dead end that resulted from that initial obscurity of vision.
You're in for a pretty wild ride with the rest of the series. A hell of a lot happens right in the first two seasons. I'd forgotten just how much.
Also, just a small point of order- things are used often and become cliches because they work. A trope is a trope and a cliche is a cliche because they're effective means of telling a story. Some are older than others, and some are easier/harder to do well than others, but it's basically just a literary devise, and it's extremely hard to find modern media that doesn't use bunches of tropes.
In fact there's a whole website that talks about that, and I am not enough of an asshole to link to it.
You almost made it so I didn't go to bed just now.
MWO: Adamski
But it evolved. It became less about that (Because there's only so far you can go on the premise) and more about the characters directly and their specific evolutions. It became a different show. It became more about Buffy completely. And where she fits in the world, her finding out who she is.
Not just my opinion. Joss Whedon's words directly. That is what the show became, and what he created. Was said at a comic-con interview.
I don't buy that. Kate has a very obvious arc throughout the series and the real dead end is that the actress left so they couldn't do anything with her going forward.
I'd say Angel took awhile to find it's footing, but that's true of any series. But where they wanted to go with that idea is fairly clear at the start. Although they do downplay certain elements they stared with.
Also, you can't expect a ton from first episodes with Network TV. A pilot episode must sell the concept and that involves a very deliberate amount of cliche.
No?
Well, I think that's something you share with every human being on the planet, because that is something that never happens.
That's why it's a cliche; it's a boring, ham-fisted, idiotically unrealistic way of showing what a knightly saint your hero / anti-hero is, and it's been done a few million times because being a lazy writer is much more common than being a creative one.
I know it sounds totally crazy, but they might've tried - I dunno - having the character do things at a bar that people actually do at a bar. But if they did that they'd have to show who he is in more subtle ways, and golly gee that means I have to actually put some effort into this script.
It's fucking terrible to resort to that, and Whedon has no excuse for it.
And then they slap you with the ending and instead of saving the girl and not taking advantage cause he's so noble, he almost attacks her and then slinks off in shame to try and maintain his composure.
The cliche is the set up for the punch-line. Because the point is to get you to think X and then go Y.
Angel saving two women at the bar makes sense because that is an easy opportunity for vampires to pick up women. It's not like the guys are being jerks to the girls they are just being nice and trying to put the moves on them. Angel only saves them because the guys aren't looking for sex which would be find, but because they are going to suck their blood and kill them. They portray the bar scene more realistically in the second episode. Plus I doubt anybody here as the looks of David Boreanaz to make their bar experience similar to his.
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And it's not like "Vampires pick up easy chicks in bars as a source of food" isn't a well established part of the setting by this point.
Ep1 of Buffy was a cliche subversion. Angel saving them then running off was just character development. It wasn't, "Oh, he isn't such a white knight!" Just my opinion, though.