I just remember seeing someone with Thor's alter egos initials on a back pack picking it up. Why they'd send out Clor to get it with a backpack and all then bring him back I dunno. Unless they couldn't clone Thor but just his normal state and the hammer was necessary to turn him.
Still, worthy is worthy. Dunno why Thing couldn't lift it but if every good guy could it'd be a bit pointless. I still don't think a clone could ever lift it.
And a clone DIDN'T lift it. The real Thor is still out there...he just hasn't "Returned" yet(like he should have in The...well, you know..."Return").
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
The hammer the clone Thor was using wasn't the real Mjolnir. You could see it opened up in 4, I think, and it had circuitry inside.
Meaning the Road to Civil War Fantastic Four issues really didn't have much to do with Civil War at all, although they were pretty important, what with the return of Doom and all.
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
Psychotic OneThe Lord of No PantsParts UnknownRegistered Userregular
edited February 2007
Best moment for me would of had to been
Taskmaster shooting Reed and Susan looking up at him pissed off. Even Taskmaster knew how fucked he was with just a look. Much better than Clor's one shot kill. Plus it was nice to see Cap getting manhandled by the B-listers Deathstrike, Venom, and Taskmaster. Getting tired of main characters being one man armies
I haven't read CW#7 yet, but I have seen a few scans from it.
Among them was the Punisher recovering Cap's mask. I know it's probably nuts but seeing him pick it up reminded me of the May solicit for P:WJ.
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL #7
Written by MATT FRACTION
Pencils and 50/50 Covers by ARIEL OLIVETTI
BLOOD AND SAND, PART 2
“I want Frank Castle -- the scourge of the underworld -- to die in the Sonoma desert playing dress-up.†With that line, the all-new Hate Monger begins the execution ceremony of the Punisher -- and nothing will ever be the same. Massacre after brutal massacre along the border brought Frank to the desert, but what horrible things does he find hiding behind the killings? What atrocities could possibly drive Frank to don a new costume? And how could it all go so terribly wrong? The American dream continues to become an unholy nightmare for Frank and everybody else in his orbit.
Probably not related, but with Frank's participation in CW revolving heavilly on Captain America, not to mention that Hate-Monger's one of Cap's biggest enemies, you gotta wonder if Frank might actually try on Cap's mask for a while with Cap apparentlly under lock and key.
Ok, so what about Nitro? What about the Atlantean assassination? What about Ben Ulrich's and Sally whatsherface's "OMG ITS BEEN IN FRONT OF US ALL THIS TIME!!"? What about Damage Control? What about Wolverine for that matter?
How the hell did no civilians die in that issue? They made a big deal about nobody being safe and wiping out a whole damn town at the star of this thing. Then what do they do? They have a bigass brawl in NYC and nobody dies. Bullshit
Never let Mark millar touch 616 Captain America again. It's very clear his hate for America bleeds through when he tries to write him. He wrote Cap so out of charecter it makes the Spider-Man unmasking seem like nothing
<snip>
Moreover, consider the basic legal issue: people are arrested constantly by citizens, with no due process, and usually with collateral damage and excessive force. Look at Watchmen: if non-superpowered vigilantes were running around, causing collateral damage and resulting in constant dismissals (improperly seized evidence, etc.) wouldn't you be pissed? <snip>
An arrest is not a matter of due process, it's a matter of search and seizure. The former is the Fifth Amendment, the latter is the Fourth. I don't think citizen's arrests are subject to the full stricture of the Fourth Amendment, at least not in the same way as a government law enforcement agency would be. Most of the citizen's arrests performed by Marvel's street level heroes would hold up in court, although the heroes would have certainly exposed themselves to civil suits for battery and prosecution by the government for assaults.
In addition, any evidence seized would not necessarily have been seized illegally. Only if the criminal defendant were able to argue successfully that the hero was a de facto agent of the police could the defendant suppress evidence seized by the hero. In cases where the hero is actually sought by the police on other charges, or the hero works only as a vigilante with no overt connection to the police, the DA could reasonably (and likely successfully) argue that the evidence is not tainted by the hero's actions.
In fact, I believe this was part of the motivation (behind the scenes and at a macro level) for Batman becoming more of a creature of urban legend during the 80s. If Batman were to work openly with the police, he would have to follow all their procedures or risk having the courts let every criminal he caught go. It didn't make any sense, and I think the editors at DC saw as another good reason to change the character into "a creature of the night, an urban legend."
I'm bothered more by the fact that we have to buy more tie in issues after the event to find out what exactly was going on during the entire thing.
Frontline 11: Find out the real reason behind the Civil War.
OH REALLY?!! YOU KNOW WHEN WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD TIME TO EXPLAIN THOSE REASONS? DURING THE THREE ISSUES WHERE NOTHING HAPPENED!!!
Easy, man, easy. Just sit down and take a deep breath. You want a beer? I'll get you a beer, just don't break anything.
You know what the best part about Civil War #7 is? Now that it's out, mightygodking will be doing his parody soon. Woot.
The sad thing is, it already reads like a parody... I'd rather he do one that makes it actually a good story...
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
I'm bothered more by the fact that we have to buy more tie in issues after the event to find out what exactly was going on during the entire thing.
Frontline 11: Find out the real reason behind the Civil War.
OH REALLY?!! YOU KNOW WHEN WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD TIME TO EXPLAIN THOSE REASONS? DURING THE THREE ISSUES WHERE NOTHING HAPPENED!!!
I feel the same way about 52. Maybe they wouldn't need four extra World War Three tie-in issues if they hadn't spent the first twenty-five issues doing absolutely nothing.
So this Civil War. I hear it has two hundred tie-in issues.
On a more serious note, it's sorta vindicating to know that I picked the "right" side, even if it was obvious that they'd lose. The first CW thread spawned an argument about what the SHRA really entailed for the heroes, and a lot of us antis thought that it essentially amounted to a superhero draft. This was borne out a bit by Simon Williams being pressured into SHIELD and the fact that people captured after registration came into effect were given a way to avoid prison by agreeing to work for SHIELD. Now, with the Initiative mini, we see that the SHRA really is a draft. As the solicit said, the registered are "in the army now".
It is now impossible to be registered and to work indepedently. And from the previews of Avengers: The Initiative #1, it's also impossible to simply have powers that you have no intention of using to fight crime, because simply registering puts you under the thumb of SHIELD. Unless the Initiative mini shows otherwise, I'm forced to believe that the SHRA is just a transparent attempt to put together a superhero army and that the coalition against it (Wakanda, Atlantis, Inhumans) is completely justified in trying to take action to counter this.
Say what you will about this event's "ending", but people saying that it's going to have no lasting effect on the Marvel Universe is retarded.
I think most people do, at least until the current run of Black Panther gets mentioned. It's tough being Reggie Hudlin's publicist. :P
I like ya too Mask... you have a good sense of humor and take the BP bashing with good grace.
besides, without you, no one would ever even know what's happening in BP.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
One little thing I found particularly interesting was
Reed's mention of how the heroes are now taking on society's more serious ailments such as hunger and poverty. I wonder if Marvel is sending the 616 universe into a Squadron Supreme-like, massive story arc. Are we going to see The Illuminati basically take over and run the world for the "benefit" of all humanity?
I'd love it if they go in this direction. Not just an out-of-continuity or alternate-dimension story, but really turning their entire universe on its head and really tackling the "why doesn't God just eliminate pain/suffering/poverty/genocide" questions (in this case, obviously, the Marvel heroes are stand-ins for God).
One little thing I found particularly interesting was
Reed's mention of how the heroes are now taking on society's more serious ailments such as hunger and poverty. I wonder if Marvel is sending the 616 universe into a Squadron Supreme-like, massive story arc. Are we going to see The Illuminati basically take over and run the world for the "benefit" of all humanity?
I'd love it if they go in this direction. Not just an out-of-continuity or alternate-dimension story, but really turning their entire universe on its head and really tackling the "why doesn't God just eliminate pain/suffering/poverty/genocide" questions (in this case, obviously, the Marvel heroes are stand-ins for God).
how about we just make the best alternate-dimension story canon? He did cure poverty, world hunger, etc... and it all seems to be well connected to Civil War
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited February 2007
I'm going to point out one of the many retarded things with CW:7
Because I doubt many will pick up on this.
TM shoots at Sue, who is effectively a lethal rebel force who specializes in force-fields.
He hits Reed who jumps in front of sue, who is practically indestructible.
Sue responds by using near lethal force on TM (I'm surprised he wasn't dead...oh wait, shitty writing)
End result?
TM is arrested.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I'm pretty sure the more criminal members of the Thunderbolts, at this point in time anyways, are always locked up when not in combat. I know I saw Bullseye in chains too, and he's doing fine after CW.
I'm going to point out one of the many retarded things with CW:7
Because I doubt many will pick up on this.
TM shoots at Sue, who is effectively a lethal rebel force who specializes in force-fields.
He hits Reed who jumps in front of sue, who is practically indestructible.
Sue responds by using near lethal force on TM (I'm surprised he wasn't dead...oh wait, shitty writing)
End result?
TM is arrested.
I think they were all arrested, but Sue and the others were granted amnisty through a prior arrangement Iron Man had worked out.
Besides, Sue doesn't run around with what looks like a human skull covering her face.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
One little thing I found particularly interesting was
Reed's mention of how the heroes are now taking on society's more serious ailments such as hunger and poverty. I wonder if Marvel is sending the 616 universe into a Squadron Supreme-like, massive story arc. Are we going to see The Illuminati basically take over and run the world for the "benefit" of all humanity?
Wildstorm called. They said the Authority wants its Coup d'État back.
One little thing I found particularly interesting was
Reed's mention of how the heroes are now taking on society's more serious ailments such as hunger and poverty. I wonder if Marvel is sending the 616 universe into a Squadron Supreme-like, massive story arc. Are we going to see The Illuminati basically take over and run the world for the "benefit" of all humanity?
Wildstorm called. They said the Authority wants its Coup d'État back.
Joe Quesada walked into Millar's office and saw all the Authority graphic novels all highliter'd up, figured it was better than what they had planned anyway.
One little thing I found particularly interesting was
Reed's mention of how the heroes are now taking on society's more serious ailments such as hunger and poverty. I wonder if Marvel is sending the 616 universe into a Squadron Supreme-like, massive story arc. Are we going to see The Illuminati basically take over and run the world for the "benefit" of all humanity?
Wildstorm called. They said the Authority wants its Coup d'État back.
That's right, because The Authority is the first instance of fiction where superpowered individuals take over society because they think they know better.
coughFoundationSeriescough.
Frankly, I'd love this sort of transition.
The problem everyone seems to be having with the SHRA is the same problem as they had with the Authority's Coup d'Etat arc: they think that it makes sense to compare civil rights in our universe with civil rights there.
Civil rights derive, at least in part, from the homogeneity of the defining aspects of humanity. Sure some of us are smarter, more fit, etc. but we're all on the same spectrum. We differ from one another by degree only, and so we're ontologically peers.
Superpowers break that parity. A man who can lift mountains is -not- my peer...he's another thing entirely. Not to quote Spider-Man, but with great power comes great responsibility. If Sentry didn't save anyone, we'd think him scum for wasting such power. Yet here are all these super-human geniuses (e.g. Richards, apparently Tony...is Tony a mutant now? Or is he just a mutate?) doing nothing to fix cancer, etc. Wakanda, for example, has the cure for cancer but BP in his racist glory refuses to share because he's sure that somehow it'll be weaponized by the West (because of, you know, all those other times when -cures- were weaponized).
In Ultimate X-Men in one of the flashbacks to when Xavier was working with Magneto showed them remarking to a reporter that already in that house of a dozen or so people they had solutions for the world's energy problems, etc. No one took them up on it because they're mutants, but everyone loves (loved?) Richards, Stark, Pym and others.
You're telling me Richards couldn't have solved the oil crisis?
You're telling me telepaths (many of whom are employed by SHIELD, btw) can't serve as therapists and heal mental injuries?
You're telling me that healers (e.g. Angel, Elixer) can't work to heal (instead of just crime-busting) while those other geniuses work to figure out how their healing powers can be reproduced?
Super-powers BREAK the normal ethical analysis we're used to using in the real world. Gun-licensing analogies don't work when people are born with the guns in their head (not to crib the first X-Men movie too liberally). Privacy analogies don't work when telepaths can enter your mind. Personal property analogies don't work when mutants can walk through walls (wow, I'm echoing Senator Kelly a bit here).
This isn't just Marvel: it's all fictional universes with super powers. This is why I don't like Harry Potter, because there's a world of people who can cure world hunger and disease but instead they stick to their little hidden schools and have power struggles amongst themselves without ever working to help the "Muggles". Captain America here wasn't trying to help people, he was trying to help -superheroes-. He wasn't worried about the normal-person ethics, but rather just the ethics as applied to superheroes.
NRAMA: Fair enough, but following on the Cap thread, of all people, why have the Punisher pick up Cap's mask? Does he still have that man-crush thing for him?
TB: So it would seem. You’ll find out more in Punisher War Journal in a couple months’ time.
Posts
And a clone DIDN'T lift it. The real Thor is still out there...he just hasn't "Returned" yet(like he should have in The...well, you know..."Return").
By taking away any of the moral ambiguity by just making it the machinations of some evil Norse god?
No thanks.
There was moral ambiguity?
Meaning the Road to Civil War Fantastic Four issues really didn't have much to do with Civil War at all, although they were pretty important, what with the return of Doom and all.
Well, they tried. Sorta.
Like one of those classic Loony Toons Moments.
"...Mother."
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL #7
Written by MATT FRACTION
Pencils and 50/50 Covers by ARIEL OLIVETTI
BLOOD AND SAND, PART 2
“I want Frank Castle -- the scourge of the underworld -- to die in the Sonoma desert playing dress-up.†With that line, the all-new Hate Monger begins the execution ceremony of the Punisher -- and nothing will ever be the same. Massacre after brutal massacre along the border brought Frank to the desert, but what horrible things does he find hiding behind the killings? What atrocities could possibly drive Frank to don a new costume? And how could it all go so terribly wrong? The American dream continues to become an unholy nightmare for Frank and everybody else in his orbit.
Probably not related, but with Frank's participation in CW revolving heavilly on Captain America, not to mention that Hate-Monger's one of Cap's biggest enemies, you gotta wonder if Frank might actually try on Cap's mask for a while with Cap apparentlly under lock and key.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
aw shit cap is gonna punish some fools
You canl see its insides in issue 7
Honestly, WTF people?
Never let Mark millar touch 616 Captain America again. It's very clear his hate for America bleeds through when he tries to write him. He wrote Cap so out of charecter it makes the Spider-Man unmasking seem like nothing
Ammo.
yes...CRACKER!
An arrest is not a matter of due process, it's a matter of search and seizure. The former is the Fifth Amendment, the latter is the Fourth. I don't think citizen's arrests are subject to the full stricture of the Fourth Amendment, at least not in the same way as a government law enforcement agency would be. Most of the citizen's arrests performed by Marvel's street level heroes would hold up in court, although the heroes would have certainly exposed themselves to civil suits for battery and prosecution by the government for assaults.
In addition, any evidence seized would not necessarily have been seized illegally. Only if the criminal defendant were able to argue successfully that the hero was a de facto agent of the police could the defendant suppress evidence seized by the hero. In cases where the hero is actually sought by the police on other charges, or the hero works only as a vigilante with no overt connection to the police, the DA could reasonably (and likely successfully) argue that the evidence is not tainted by the hero's actions.
In fact, I believe this was part of the motivation (behind the scenes and at a macro level) for Batman becoming more of a creature of urban legend during the 80s. If Batman were to work openly with the police, he would have to follow all their procedures or risk having the courts let every criminal he caught go. It didn't make any sense, and I think the editors at DC saw as another good reason to change the character into "a creature of the night, an urban legend."
Frontline 11: Find out the real reason behind the Civil War.
OH REALLY?!! YOU KNOW WHEN WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD TIME TO EXPLAIN THOSE REASONS? DURING THE THREE ISSUES WHERE NOTHING HAPPENED!!!
Easy, man, easy. Just sit down and take a deep breath. You want a beer? I'll get you a beer, just don't break anything.
You know what the best part about Civil War #7 is? Now that it's out, mightygodking will be doing his parody soon. Woot.
The sad thing is, it already reads like a parody... I'd rather he do one that makes it actually a good story...
I feel the same way about 52. Maybe they wouldn't need four extra World War Three tie-in issues if they hadn't spent the first twenty-five issues doing absolutely nothing.
On a more serious note, it's sorta vindicating to know that I picked the "right" side, even if it was obvious that they'd lose. The first CW thread spawned an argument about what the SHRA really entailed for the heroes, and a lot of us antis thought that it essentially amounted to a superhero draft. This was borne out a bit by Simon Williams being pressured into SHIELD and the fact that people captured after registration came into effect were given a way to avoid prison by agreeing to work for SHIELD. Now, with the Initiative mini, we see that the SHRA really is a draft. As the solicit said, the registered are "in the army now".
It is now impossible to be registered and to work indepedently. And from the previews of Avengers: The Initiative #1, it's also impossible to simply have powers that you have no intention of using to fight crime, because simply registering puts you under the thumb of SHIELD. Unless the Initiative mini shows otherwise, I'm forced to believe that the SHRA is just a transparent attempt to put together a superhero army and that the coalition against it (Wakanda, Atlantis, Inhumans) is completely justified in trying to take action to counter this.
Say what you will about this event's "ending", but people saying that it's going to have no lasting effect on the Marvel Universe is retarded.
Here's Issue #1: http://mightygodking.livejournal.com/292662.html
Follow the tags to find your way to the other issues.
I think most people do, at least until the current run of Black Panther gets mentioned. It's tough being Reggie Hudlin's publicist. :P
I like ya too Mask... you have a good sense of humor and take the BP bashing with good grace.
besides, without you, no one would ever even know what's happening in BP.
I'd love it if they go in this direction. Not just an out-of-continuity or alternate-dimension story, but really turning their entire universe on its head and really tackling the "why doesn't God just eliminate pain/suffering/poverty/genocide" questions (in this case, obviously, the Marvel heroes are stand-ins for God).
how about we just make the best alternate-dimension story canon? He did cure poverty, world hunger, etc... and it all seems to be well connected to Civil War
Because I doubt many will pick up on this.
TM shoots at Sue, who is effectively a lethal rebel force who specializes in force-fields.
He hits Reed who jumps in front of sue, who is practically indestructible.
Sue responds by using near lethal force on TM (I'm surprised he wasn't dead...oh wait, shitty writing)
End result?
TM is arrested.
I think they were all arrested, but Sue and the others were granted amnisty through a prior arrangement Iron Man had worked out.
Besides, Sue doesn't run around with what looks like a human skull covering her face.
Wildstorm called. They said the Authority wants its Coup d'État back.
Joe Quesada walked into Millar's office and saw all the Authority graphic novels all highliter'd up, figured it was better than what they had planned anyway.
That's right, because The Authority is the first instance of fiction where superpowered individuals take over society because they think they know better.
coughFoundationSeriescough.
Frankly, I'd love this sort of transition.
The problem everyone seems to be having with the SHRA is the same problem as they had with the Authority's Coup d'Etat arc: they think that it makes sense to compare civil rights in our universe with civil rights there.
Civil rights derive, at least in part, from the homogeneity of the defining aspects of humanity. Sure some of us are smarter, more fit, etc. but we're all on the same spectrum. We differ from one another by degree only, and so we're ontologically peers.
Superpowers break that parity. A man who can lift mountains is -not- my peer...he's another thing entirely. Not to quote Spider-Man, but with great power comes great responsibility. If Sentry didn't save anyone, we'd think him scum for wasting such power. Yet here are all these super-human geniuses (e.g. Richards, apparently Tony...is Tony a mutant now? Or is he just a mutate?) doing nothing to fix cancer, etc. Wakanda, for example, has the cure for cancer but BP in his racist glory refuses to share because he's sure that somehow it'll be weaponized by the West (because of, you know, all those other times when -cures- were weaponized).
In Ultimate X-Men in one of the flashbacks to when Xavier was working with Magneto showed them remarking to a reporter that already in that house of a dozen or so people they had solutions for the world's energy problems, etc. No one took them up on it because they're mutants, but everyone loves (loved?) Richards, Stark, Pym and others.
You're telling me Richards couldn't have solved the oil crisis?
You're telling me telepaths (many of whom are employed by SHIELD, btw) can't serve as therapists and heal mental injuries?
You're telling me that healers (e.g. Angel, Elixer) can't work to heal (instead of just crime-busting) while those other geniuses work to figure out how their healing powers can be reproduced?
Super-powers BREAK the normal ethical analysis we're used to using in the real world. Gun-licensing analogies don't work when people are born with the guns in their head (not to crib the first X-Men movie too liberally). Privacy analogies don't work when telepaths can enter your mind. Personal property analogies don't work when mutants can walk through walls (wow, I'm echoing Senator Kelly a bit here).
This isn't just Marvel: it's all fictional universes with super powers. This is why I don't like Harry Potter, because there's a world of people who can cure world hunger and disease but instead they stick to their little hidden schools and have power struggles amongst themselves without ever working to help the "Muggles". Captain America here wasn't trying to help people, he was trying to help -superheroes-. He wasn't worried about the normal-person ethics, but rather just the ethics as applied to superheroes.
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102414
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)