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PA comic: Friday Sept. 2, 2011

2

Posts

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Calenth wrote:
    Henroid wrote:
    The issues I'm hearing about regarding the boss battles is a problem that's been present in choice oriented games for like the last decade, nearly. Started with Knights of the Old Republic (or well, I guess before, but it's the first game I played where I perceived this problem). Also remember it being discussed by Chris Remo on a podcast a long time ago, with regard to Mass Effect.


    Well, the original Deus Ex didn't, but only because the "bosses" were built on the same mechanic you were, without added health, and there wasn't a full "Arena"-style lockdown with them, so there were about a zillion ways to take them out or sneak past them. My favorite was dropping a LAM mine on Anna Navarre in Lebedev's 747. Problem solved! But then, I guess you lose the whole "Boss Fight" aesthetic, which I guess is a problem.

    Well, Deus Ex was astonishingly open in that manner. Sometimes, though, you have to confront people for a narrative to hold.

  • ShenShen Registered User regular
    The boss fights in DX:HR are bad, but they're bad regardless of your build. You are put in a room chock full of munitions to use and barrels to throw. My pure hacker playthrough beat this guy with 4 nades and a rocket to the face (picked up that level), and my optical camo run just turned invisible and trolled him from various corners of the room with the pistol.

    3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
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  • Faceless CowardFaceless Coward Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    rtkwe wrote:
    Lorek wrote:
    rtkwe wrote:
    There's only one boss who you really have to fight straight up: the third boss Namir. The first and second both have tricks. Hit the spoiler if you want to see them. (No story spoilers inside just boss fight tips)
    For the first boss you can just throw the explosive barrels and the poison gas canisters at him, on my play he actually died while standing in one of those poison clouds while I was looking for another barrel to throw. The second boss you shoot the large power generators on the outer walls electrifying the floor then unload into her, just make sure you have the EMP shielding from the dermal armor tree.

    Third Boss trick:
    There's a laser gun in one of the cabinets; the laser can shoot through glass, which is what 90% of the cover in this area is made of. Just put the room between you and him and fire at him with the laser.
    Ah yes I never used that one, I got the upgrade on my first playthough like a tosser, second (pacifist) playthough I had an inv full of emp and gas grenades to stun him so I never needed the LasRifle.





    Faceless Coward on
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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Shen wrote:
    The boss fights in DX:HR are bad, but they're bad regardless of your build. You are put in a room chock full of munitions to use and barrels to throw. My pure hacker playthrough beat this guy with 4 nades and a rocket to the face (picked up that level), and my optical camo run just turned invisible and trolled him from various corners of the room with the pistol.

    Wait a minute, you seem to be saying they're bad for a different reason than this comic (and a lot of other people) is saying. The comic pointing out that not being combat oriented leaves you at a disadvantage. What you described above is the ways to beat the boss fights to overcome that disadvantage. Which means the fights were actually designed with non-combat builds in mind, succeeding in the balance.

    Now I don't know what to believe. I don't even know whose side I'm on anymore.

  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    If you can't talk them into suicide then it's just not good enough.

    Good old Fallout.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
  • CalenthCalenth Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Henroid wrote:

    Well, Deus Ex was astonishingly open in that manner. Sometimes, though, you have to confront people for a narrative to hold.

    Yeah, and after a certain point, you're basically bugging out the game if you don't kill them, and the game acts as if you did. I think this game deals with that narrative aspect *relatively* well
    at least by having the first boss Suicide so you can't get information out of him. If the second just went full mute and there was some flavor text somewhere about how she wasn't open to interrogation due to "information locks" in her brain, or if all three did forced suicides a la the hacker on the first board, it'd be problem solved, narratively, even if you did nonlethal takeouts.
    Henroid wrote:
    Shen wrote:
    The boss fights in DX:HR are bad, but they're bad regardless of your build. You are put in a room chock full of munitions to use and barrels to throw. My pure hacker playthrough beat this guy with 4 nades and a rocket to the face (picked up that level), and my optical camo run just turned invisible and trolled him from various corners of the room with the pistol.

    Wait a minute, you seem to be saying they're bad for a different reason than this comic (and a lot of other people) is saying. The comic pointing out that not being combat oriented leaves you at a disadvantage. What you described above is the ways to beat the boss fights to overcome that disadvantage. Which means the fights were actually designed with non-combat builds in mind, succeeding in the balance.

    Now I don't know what to believe. I don't even know whose side I'm on anymore.


    Yeah, this guy is right. They're bad regardless of build. The real problem with them is that they break the "immersive reality" of the rest of the game -- you've been in a Realistic World all along, then suddenly there's a cutscene and an Arena and a Boss Fight and you lose the willing suspension of disbelief. The reason people say "wait this sucks, suddenly I can't use my hacking skills" or whatever is that up till then, you could always go over or around just about any enemy, because you're in a world, not a game. You can't go over or around the bosses, or even pull out a creative solution like dragging them back onto a turret earlier in the level or something. Even the "creative" solutions are dictated to you by the preset Arena conditions
    "Oh look, I'm fighting the first boss right next to this convenient tank of poison gas!"
    , and it destroys immersion.

    Calenth on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    darkmayo wrote:
    I had the same problem, took a ton of hacking upgrades and my weapon loadout was a tranq sniper rifle and modded pistol, and luckily a few emp grenades. Was able to finally take him down after about 10 attempts, lots of running around for cover and a lot of bullets to the head.
    A modded pistol is the best weapon.

  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Couscous wrote:
    darkmayo wrote:
    I had the same problem, took a ton of hacking upgrades and my weapon loadout was a tranq sniper rifle and modded pistol, and luckily a few emp grenades. Was able to finally take him down after about 10 attempts, lots of running around for cover and a lot of bullets to the head.
    A modded pistol is the best weapon.

    Yea it was pretty effective :P and the small size make me like it even more. Up until the boss fight except for
    hacking a turret and gunning down a room of guards, couldnt resist
    I had been playing it pretty pious, tranqing and sneaking. Was silly that I had to break that to have a stand up fight with this machine gun boss. After the fight I went back to tranqing and sneaking... up until
    the pod massacre, then I just shot everyone in the head

    darkmayo on
    Switch SW-6182-1526-0041
  • mr_arthurmr_arthur Registered User new member
    edited September 2011
    I dunno guys. Sure the bosses really take you out of the whole sneaking around/hacker dude experience, but I found it a welcome change to pace. And really, you knew you were going to fight them eventually, carry a weapon or two on you! I played the game purposely avoiding killing anyone, only using takedowns and the stun gun. But I still carried a combat rifle and some grenades with me just in case something comes up. And something did. And all I needed to do (regarding the boss in question) was lob a grenade at him and unload a clip or two into him and he was done. Didn't even get a chance to move.

    If there was anything I'd change though, it be to allow us to use our fists on the bosses too.

    mr_arthur on
  • Milamber_29Milamber_29 Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Really guys? The bosses were easy not only did the game basically announce every boss by suddenly leaving a whole lot of big guns and ammo around it honestly didn't make a difference what your augs were so long as you had thought for a second why emps were invented and saved a spot for a big gun and some health and energy. Basically what your bitching about is your inability to plan ahead so you screwed yourself. The first boss took me maybe 5 attempts and maybe 2 min on the final run to beat and my build had no combat in it at all.

    PS. The nodded pistol is my favourite carry over from the first, it's a headshot machine, you can do a small army with it lol

    Milamber_29 on
  • SquallSquall hap cloud Registered User regular
    so easy that it only took you five tries!

  • DaGillerDaGiller Registered User new member
    Shen wrote:
    The boss fights in DX:HR are bad, but they're bad regardless of your build. You are put in a room chock full of munitions to use and barrels to throw. My pure hacker playthrough beat this guy with 4 nades and a rocket to the face (picked up that level), and my optical camo run just turned invisible and trolled him from various corners of the room with the pistol.

    Similar. Hacker/stealth spec ran to the far end of the room and tranq'd the hell out of him from range. Tossed in a barrel and an emp just for fun, but they were ultimately unnecessary. It took a couple tries, mostly due to control fumbles on my part (stealth, stand, and run you sonofa%&$*#!!). Otherwise, cake.

  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    You can kill the first two bosses with the Stun Gun + Pistol (the Stun Gun stunlocks them long enough to switch to the pistol fire a shot and switch back. Grenades work better since you don't have to switch weapons, but if you're doing a pacifist run you probably didn't keep frags). That was the first thing I tried, because I was wondering if they would really make it that easy.

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
  • The Good Doctor TranThe Good Doctor Tran Registered User regular
    The one thing I would say, could say rather, without piercing the umbral curtain of the Spoilitheon, is that the Typhoon Explosive System solves problems. Especially if your problems are sheathed in weak, shreddable flesh.

    Jerry Holkins for President of the Future!

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  • CalsetesCalsetes Registered User new member
    I don't know if it was luck or skill, but on my playthrough I'm working on right now, the first boss I took out with nothing but a stun gun and a handgun.

    Totally not combat-specced - I think I only maxed out my inventory space, some of my hacking abilities, and got the Speech Dialogue thing, and I almost died a few times, but basically I just hid behind walls and popped him with the stun gun (which "shorts him out") then popped off about five rounds with my pistol each time.

    Afterwards, I realized I picked up a combat rifle somewhere along the line I was going to sell and swore like a sailor, but oh well. I can get by on 30 handgun bullets.

  • PandabearcakesPandabearcakes Registered User regular
    This is just how my first bossfight went. I put all my points into the cloaking field thing and hacking and whatnot.

    I threw my stun gun away early in the game because it seemed useless to me. Grabbed one again later and it made the second boss easy.

  • Good Looking Fat GuyGood Looking Fat Guy West Hartford, CTRegistered User regular
    I hope to pick this game up soon.

  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    Stun Gun is the best weapon.

  • kaliyamakaliyama Left to find less-moderated fora Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote:
    Calenth wrote:
    Henroid wrote:
    The issues I'm hearing about regarding the boss battles is a problem that's been present in choice oriented games for like the last decade, nearly. Started with Knights of the Old Republic (or well, I guess before, but it's the first game I played where I perceived this problem). Also remember it being discussed by Chris Remo on a podcast a long time ago, with regard to Mass Effect.


    Well, the original Deus Ex didn't, but only because the "bosses" were built on the same mechanic you were, without added health, and there wasn't a full "Arena"-style lockdown with them, so there were about a zillion ways to take them out or sneak past them. My favorite was dropping a LAM mine on Anna Navarre in Lebedev's 747. Problem solved! But then, I guess you lose the whole "Boss Fight" aesthetic, which I guess is a problem.

    Well, Deus Ex was astonishingly open in that manner. Sometimes, though, you have to confront people for a narrative to hold.

    Two words: Flatlander woman.
    Oh, another two words: laputan machine.

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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Rolo wrote:
    Stun Gun is the best weapon.

    Super strength turret is best weapon.

  • BobbleBobble Registered User regular
    Squall wrote:
    so easy that it only took you five tries!

    There was a time when that was considered an easy boss.
    #getoffmylawn

  • PandabearcakesPandabearcakes Registered User regular
    Rolo wrote:
    Stun Gun is the best weapon.

    It really is. I wish I had one for the first boss.

  • Eye FlysEye Flys Registered User regular
    Did you losers not notice the explosive canisters in the room? I pwned Barrett in less than two minutes. 1 Emp, 2 nades, 2 explosive canisters and one clip from my combat rifle. Done.

    It's not my fault you suck.

  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    Oh you're adorable.

    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
  • SeriouslySeriously Registered User regular
    fuckin

    n 0 0 b z

  • vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    I found it a bit odd that, in the cutscene leading up to the first boss
    my hitherto incredibly stealthy and sneaky character decided it'd be a good idea to stroll casually into the middle of the room where everyone and God could see him. That bothered me more than the boss fight itself - that's not how my Adam plays!

    And unironic use of the word pwned is just.. well.

    WATCH THIS SPACE.
  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    Cutscene Jensen is the best Jensen.

    No wait, I mean worst Jensen. God damn it, Jensen.

    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
  • faitsfaits a panda eating cake seattleRegistered User regular
    is this the thread where we brag about how good we are at deus ex

    faits.png
  • AdusAdus Registered User regular
    Oolong wrote:
    I absolutely hated this game after about half an hour, ragequit and haven't bothered to play it again. This comic makes me feel like I've made the right decision.

    I'm not sure if that bothers me or not.

    It's definitely not going to appeal to everyone, but this comic is presenting one of the flaws in an otherwise excellent game. I love the game but I didn't think the boss fights meshed well with the rest of it. That doesn't mean the game isn't worth playing.

    However if this comic alone convinces people not to try it, then that's ridiculous.

  • vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    Adus wrote:
    Oolong wrote:
    I absolutely hated this game after about half an hour, ragequit and haven't bothered to play it again. This comic makes me feel like I've made the right decision.

    I'm not sure if that bothers me or not.

    It's definitely not going to appeal to everyone, but this comic is presenting one of the flaws in an otherwise excellent game. I love the game but I didn't think the boss fights meshed well with the rest of it. That doesn't mean the game isn't worth playing.

    However if this comic alone convinces people not to try it, then that's ridiculous.

    It's still one of the best games I've played in a long time. The boss fights are like mediocre garlic bread next to the steak dinner of fantasticness that is the rest of the game.

    WATCH THIS SPACE.
  • Eye FlysEye Flys Registered User regular
    I don't see the first boss fight as a flaw at all.

    Regardless of how you play the game or which augmentations you chose this game rewards you for exploring and taking advantage of your environment. The first boss fight is much easier if you take the time to look around the room (and die) and use what's around you in the boss. The room has several explosive canisters, ammo and nades stashed throughout to make the boss fight easier.

    I died a few times before I figured out a strategy that works. Once I had the strategy down, it was easy as pie.

    And yes, I am adorable in an unironic (whatever that means) way.

  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    Eye Flys wrote:
    Did you losers not notice the explosive canisters in the room? I pwned Barrett in less than two minutes. 1 Emp, 2 nades, 2 explosive canisters and one clip from my combat rifle. Done.

    It's not my fault you suck.

    sigh

  • AdusAdus Registered User regular
    The difficulty isn't the issue, really. It's that it's just kind of a jarring transition if you've gone through the game focusing on stealth, basically forcing a different playstyle on you that you're probably not interested in.

  • vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    Adus wrote:
    The difficulty isn't the issue, really. It's that it's just kind of a jarring transition if you've gone through the game focusing on stealth, basically forcing a different playstyle on you that you're probably not interested in.

    Indeed. I was able to Donkey Kong my way through it pretty easily, but it just felt like a complete and total shift in tone and gameplay. It was jarring.

    WATCH THIS SPACE.
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Eye Flys wrote:
    Did you losers not notice the explosive canisters in the room? I pwned Barrett in less than two minutes. 1 Emp, 2 nades, 2 explosive canisters and one clip from my combat rifle. Done.

    It's not my fault you suck.

    You people are having difficulties?

    With video games?

    Ha! Ha! Ha!

  • KitAlexHarrisonKitAlexHarrison Registered User regular
    Adus wrote:
    The difficulty isn't the issue, really. It's that it's just kind of a jarring transition if you've gone through the game focusing on stealth, basically forcing a different playstyle on you that you're probably not interested in.

    Indeed. Though a counter-argument would be that otherwise it is perfectly possible to spend the entire game crawling around enemies and never engaging anyone directly, the boss fights ensure you get at least a bit of gritty shooter action.

    Sometimes this is necessary to drive the story. Like the finale of Mass Effect 2: Arrival, in which
    an incredibly controversial decision is made for you, and for which you must stand trial in ME3 because BioWare needs to make sure the story goes in a general direction, even if that isn't how your Shepard would handle the situation.

    PennyArcadeSig.png

  • OolongOolong Registered User regular
    Adus wrote:
    Oolong wrote:
    I absolutely hated this game after about half an hour, ragequit and haven't bothered to play it again. This comic makes me feel like I've made the right decision.

    I'm not sure if that bothers me or not.

    It's definitely not going to appeal to everyone, but this comic is presenting one of the flaws in an otherwise excellent game. I love the game but I didn't think the boss fights meshed well with the rest of it. That doesn't mean the game isn't worth playing.

    However if this comic alone convinces people not to try it, then that's ridiculous.

    You ever played a game where it seemed like every design decision was made specifically to piss you off? That's what DE:HR was like for me. From absolutely nothing in the world being manipulable (except for dozens of cardboard boxes) to the weird difficulty (I've been playing video games longer than a lot of you have been alive, I suspect, and I had to turn down the difficulty to get through the SECOND ROOM OF BAD GUYS, for no reason that I can explain) to the bizarre decision to map most game interactions to X instead of A, to the incredibly annoying inability to simply read the closed captions and skip past the voice overs, to the fact that bad guys have inventories with stuff in them but you still have to drag their bodies off their guns-- which always give you exactly three bullets-- to me telling dude on the helicopter that I wanted a long distance weapon and then being provided with a mid-range machine gun with THIRTY BULLETS-- fuck me, there's ten million dollars of hardware in my body and you can only afford thirty bullets?-- to the tutorials that, on my 36" or so HDTV, are inexplicably done as blurry-ass VIDEOS that take up about a quarter of the screen rather than something that I participate in, to the absolutely incoherent hacking minigame that finally led to me turning the thing off, DE:HR violated one of my cardinal rules of gaming: I'm too damn old to let video games make me angry anymore. I put $60 into the thing, and I'm annoyed that that $60 got me half an hour to an hour of aggravating gameplay, most of which consisted of turning my character's head while he walked on a rail and had conversations that I couldn't participate in. I feel like I should give it another chance because of the money, but the rest of me is in full-blown "fuck that' mode at this point.

    I'm sure there's a good game in there-- plenty of people seem to like it. But it got on my nerves a whole lot in a really short period of time and I'm a grown man with a kid and a job and I don't need that mess anymore, y'know?

    TL;DR: Hulk smash.

  • PandabearcakesPandabearcakes Registered User regular
    Eye Flys wrote:
    Did you losers not notice the explosive canisters in the room?

    I did, he killed me every time I picked one up.
    one clip from my combat rifle. Done.

    I had a handgun, Barret laughed at me when I shot it.
    Eye Flys wrote:
    It's not my fault you suck.

    Alright. Up until that point in the game I did nothing but hack computers and take down enemies without using guns. Thus, the game taught me guns were useless and I didn't bother carrying any.

    Suddenly I'm locked in a room with a guy who kills me very very quickly if I'm out in the open. Stealth doesn't work against him, and my pistol doesn't seem to do much. I saw the canisters and went for them, but more often than not they blew up in my face.

    It took me a few tries to re-learn the game. Yes. I don't suck because of it.

    Go away.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2011
    You can feel free to post here again when you aren't at such a remedial level of gaming, Pandabearcakes

    joshofalltrades on
  • Frosty the Snow PlowFrosty the Snow Plow Registered User regular
    You don't even need the pistol. The Stun Gun does damage to bosses. You can literally just zap the bosses to death as they stand there in a daze.

    There's a joke about Jensen being an ex-cop in there somewhere.

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