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What modern music will stand the test of time?
joshofalltrades
Class TraitorSmoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
Class TraitorSmoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
I had this argument with some old people the other day.
Their belief is that modern, popular music will never be listened to even as early as 100 years from now. I was asked which music I believed would stand the test of time and still be worming its way through the public's subconscious 100 or even 200 years from now, and I have to say the safe answer is The Beatles. It's a band that young people are still picking up and listening to today. The Beatles' influence on rock music is constantly evaluated, and I feel rarely overstated. The next question was, "Which album of theirs do you find the most innovative?" I had to say Sgt. Pepper, even though that is not my favorite album of theirs, simply because it essentially laid bare a universe of possibilities for a host of musicians in the decades following. You had a shitload of innovation on this album; tape varispeeding, automatic double tracking, flanging, etc. etc. etc. I could literally go on and on about just this one album.
They were and are a cultural phenomenon that hasn't been equaled since. Elements of their counter-culture attitude, experimental pushing of musical boundaries, playfulness, and even some really hard rocking still seep into new releases today, almost 50 years later. And they still pull in shitloads of revenue. Critics expected that their music would die once the phenomenon faded, but if anything they've only become more legendary over time.
Contrast this with their argument. Even though I find it silly (old media > new media!), I will try not to strawman or oversimplify. The counterargument is that classical/baroque/romantic/whatever music has stood the test of time because it is beautiful, and there's just something universal about it. You can hear classical music and, even if you're not the sort of person who listens to classical music all the time, you won't be thinking to yourself, "Damn, I wish they'd shut this garbage off." Put on a loud rap song with tons of explicit language and you'll likely get a different reaction.
But does that mean rap music won't last? I confess I don't like most rap. But I think it will be around -- it's a huge aspect of black culture that is increasingly being embraced by youthful white culture.
I don't think that music has to stand up to a particular arbitrary set of criteria to be able to point at it and say, "This will be listened to 200 years from now." Early 20th century pieces were very dissonant, and we are still listening to some of them today, 100 years later. So obviously being universal and beautiful can't be the only criteria (although I will personally argue that there is beauty in some dissonance).
What do you think will be around?
Their belief is that modern, popular music will never be listened to even as early as 100 years from now. I was asked which music I believed would stand the test of time and still be worming its way through the public's subconscious 100 or even 200 years from now, and I have to say the safe answer is The Beatles. It's a band that young people are still picking up and listening to today. The Beatles' influence on rock music is constantly evaluated, and I feel rarely overstated. The next question was, "Which album of theirs do you find the most innovative?" I had to say Sgt. Pepper, even though that is not my favorite album of theirs, simply because it essentially laid bare a universe of possibilities for a host of musicians in the decades following. You had a shitload of innovation on this album; tape varispeeding, automatic double tracking, flanging, etc. etc. etc. I could literally go on and on about just this one album.
They were and are a cultural phenomenon that hasn't been equaled since. Elements of their counter-culture attitude, experimental pushing of musical boundaries, playfulness, and even some really hard rocking still seep into new releases today, almost 50 years later. And they still pull in shitloads of revenue. Critics expected that their music would die once the phenomenon faded, but if anything they've only become more legendary over time.
Contrast this with their argument. Even though I find it silly (old media > new media!), I will try not to strawman or oversimplify. The counterargument is that classical/baroque/romantic/whatever music has stood the test of time because it is beautiful, and there's just something universal about it. You can hear classical music and, even if you're not the sort of person who listens to classical music all the time, you won't be thinking to yourself, "Damn, I wish they'd shut this garbage off." Put on a loud rap song with tons of explicit language and you'll likely get a different reaction.
But does that mean rap music won't last? I confess I don't like most rap. But I think it will be around -- it's a huge aspect of black culture that is increasingly being embraced by youthful white culture.
I don't think that music has to stand up to a particular arbitrary set of criteria to be able to point at it and say, "This will be listened to 200 years from now." Early 20th century pieces were very dissonant, and we are still listening to some of them today, 100 years later. So obviously being universal and beautiful can't be the only criteria (although I will personally argue that there is beauty in some dissonance).
What do you think will be around?
joshofalltrades on
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I'm somebody who listens to a lot of classical music and if somebody puts on some fucking horrific triplet filled formulaic fugue I will tell them to shut that shit off. Same goes for any opera where the singer is abusing vibrato - it's like they're fucking running rampant all over the note. HIT THE FUCKING NOTE JESUS CHRIST
anyway
Or are we talking about stylistic choices, like rock guitars and phat beats?
"You can't just sit here in the dark listening to classical music."
So to me, music that will be popular 200 years hence should be [1] popular at the time it came out. Bach was the Michael Jackson of his time, people on the streets whistled his music. There are a lot of sources describing how amazing he was. That sparks people's interest. And [2] Available to be appreciated to new generations. Records, videoclips and sheet music allow us to experience music long after the original performer is gone.
It's protest music backed by a danceable beat that can be made by poor people with no access to traditional musical instruments. That's what limited rock's global spread - there's a fairly large investment needed to get the essentials for even a three piece.
It doesn't hurt that the sampling and beat/lyrical driven structure means that it is flexible enough to incorporate local vocal patterns and musical structures. If a culture has music, it can turn that music into hip hop.
And for fun, pick a random culture and Google it plus hip hop. You'll always get something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_hip_hop
For me personally, this starts with old country and the birth of rock and roll. But jazz and such probably fits in here too.
I mean, specific groups may be because they achieve no real measure of success, but anything part of the public consciousness will endure at least that long.
How much music do we have retained from any era pre twentieth century? Compared to now when any even vaguely popular song is almost certainly going to be immortalised, and can be heard as performed by the original artists at a whim. Along with vast swathes of criticism.
Strikes me that that's going to fundamentally alter the way music from the past is viewed.
Quite a bit, actually. A ton of classical is broadly familiar thanks to its use in commercials, movie/TV soundtracks and general background music. People might not know the composer or name of the piece, but they can hum it.
But I also think the massive quantity of artists available, which will always be increasing, will forever place limits on how many future people will be actively listening to non-iconic artists.
Are you still in high school?
Ummm
What
No, but please tell me where you disagree with any of that.
I disagree with the entirety of it.
Jazz, classical, and opera still have large followings, they just aren't mainstream pop culture.
Same with music from the beginning of the 20th centuries. Music scholars and aficionados are well aware of them, the recordings frequently pop up in movies and advertisements, they aren't going anywhere.
Your perspective comes off as that of someone who's only interested in and aware of current pop culture.
Why do you think classical music is on the way out? It's lasted centuries already.
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The difference is the physical volume required to store every second of music that is produced today is smaller than the physical volume required to preserve a single score from an orchestral piece produced in the 1600s.
Our storage capacity for music is relatively infinite, so there's no reason to think we'll be hand-picking selected works.
Surely, when it comes to teaching or studying music of the period, but as long as the data is kept, the music will endure.
What do you mean by "kept"? Through much of human history music either wasn't written down at all or, for pieces that were written out, there were maybe a couple of copies made. We have vastly more music from after the 15th century than before because of mechanical reproduction of sheet music following the Gutenberg press. We have even more surviving music (as a percent of all music created) since the advent of analog recording. Barring some kind of digital media apocalypse, I imagine that in another 50-100 years time it will be the majority of new pieces that are retained in some fashion rather than the rare exception. It may not be commonly listened to, popular, widely known, or even easily accessible, but there are thousands of years of music that simply no longer exist. From here on out, that won't necessarily be true ever again.
Amazing Grace is a song that will never, ever go away. It was published in 1779. Whether you are a Christian or not, the tune is ingrained into every single American and European (and probably a vast majority of everyone else, too). If you ask someone to hum Amazing Grace, they will have no problem. I'm even willing to bet you that 90% of everybody knows at least the first verse.
Also music in the style of periods that probably wouldn't be considered contemporary by someone focused on Top 40 Radio or whatever. What movie and TV scores aren't made up of older pieces generally are new compositions that have more in common with classical music, jazz, or similar than with Beiber.
You also have to factor in that a lot of the classical music we have recorded down are written in a non-standard way. This is the reason why some of it is copyrighted, since the company that payed to have it translated to modern notation have the rights to the translation.
Oh, and if Prodigy's Fat of the Land is ever forgotten the human race doesn't deserve to survive.
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Island. Being on fire.
If by his question, the OP meant "by an obscure music scholar or aficionado", then yeah, you're probably right. Someone will always listen to the things we create.
If by that question, the OP was looking for a broader audience, the collective "we" of popular culture, then no, I don't think we will be listening to the stuff made today. Just like we're not listening to Jazz, Opera, Classical, Ragtime, Swing, etc. Or going to the theater, listening to the radio, reading newspapers, going to the soda fountain, or drive in.
Will the artists of today be talked about? Sure, because music is so influential to the people who listen to it, and artists who come after them. Will dudes by bumpin Public Enemy or NWA in their hover cars in 2099? No, just like we're not blasting Scott Joplin in our cars, unless you're an ice cream man.
I think you're overestimating how much Europeans are exposed to that song. I know it starts with the title of the song and noting else about it except for a bit of the music.
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Island. Being on fire.
Yeah, Amazing Grace is known in America... it's derived from a traditional Scottish (I believe) song, but outside of America, I don't think it's nearly as ubiquitous.
This. Sure it will exist, but more than 99% of it will be forgotten by public at large in 100 years.
That was an assumption on my part, since the words were written by John Newton (a Brit). Regardless, it's estimated to be performed about 10 million times annually in America.
So pop culture means 'What RocketSauce is doing'. I am listening to the radio right now, dude. I attended a classical concert last week and a jazz one the week before. Saw a play the week before that.
And drive-ins died out but watching movies didn't. Reading newspapers is on the wane, but reading newspaper sites online sure hasn't (though they struggling to monetise it).
Again, why do you think classical music is dying? It's been around for centuries and people are still listening to it.
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I'm really stoked you have diverse interests, but I fail to see how you doing them means the majority of other people are, and that they are still going to be around in a hundred years. Radio stations and newspapers are hurting because advertisers know they aren't getting as many listeners/readers. Look at the popularity of radio from the 20's, 30's and 40's, and compare it to today. It's not even close. There will always be theater, classical music, and at least for a while jazz, but just because Bogart is doing it, doesn't mean most other people are too, or that it is likely to survive. I'm curious as to what the average theater-goer's age is, or who attends classical or jazz concerts, or reads the newspaper. My guess is it's likely in the 40-60 range on average. Younger people today (this is the key here) will be the older people in 50 years, and are not doing these things.
This is not an indictment on your forms of entertainment, I love them as well. I'm not going to kid myself that they'll be around for me to enjoy in 50 years, or that just because they're popular with a minority today, means they will still be relevant 100-200 years from now.
The delivery mechanism is changing, not the interest in the product.
The documentary Before the Music Dies goes into this as well. Good watch. I believe it's still on Hulu.
The majority don't have to share my interests if the minority sustains itself. TV didn't kill movies. Movies didn't kill theatre, or books. Jazz and rock and roll didn't kill classical music. They may have eaten into the audience of other entertainments, but they didn't replace them. Classical music has survived God knows how many other forms of music and still has hundreds, thousands of orchestras devoted to playing it, radio stations that play nothing but it and concerts all over the world that draw in hundreds and thousands at a time. Yes, grey hairs are much in evidence in the audience. Unless this is the first generation where that's been true I have to doubt classical music is going to die.
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Well, they used to wear powdered wigs, so it's hard to tell.
Ohh? Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have to give that a watch at some point this weekend. The history of pop music and how it's come to be in the shape that it is today is a fascinating topic for me.
I don't want to bring down the discussion on how much life other forms of entertainment have left in them, but you do bring up a good point that newer forms of entertainment haven't killed them off.
I think media saturation might play a roll in how well our music today survives. I have a feeling (not a scholar), that music from 1600-1900 did not have as much competition from other forms of media, or even from other music as well, due to the amount of resources and time it took to train, study, compose, and perform. Today, we have thousands of songs coming out every year, with artists that went from singing in their garage or basement, to performing in front of thousands of people in just a few years. It is so easy to make a song now, that anyone can have access to.
I don't know if this will be the first generation where classical music will die, but I think it's the first generation where it's a possibility.