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Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, but not over the lameness of countdowns

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    QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    I have two modes of play. Stealth murder everyone with a silenced pistol and full on berserker rampage with automatics, explosives and murder blades. Oddly enough, you can turn Detroit into a graveyard and there are no repercussions.

    I really do love stealth games, but going the ghost route is always done kinda shit... even in stealth games. I tend to be the silent assassin first, and the loud guns guy later, like you did. I just didn't find the loud gameplay all that fun, but they seem to be changing that in MD.

    I remember in HR either the tutorial soldiers counted, or the ghost run was just really gimpy. Also, not killing the bosses outright is just fucking clownshoes hard for some of them, especially before the updates.

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    DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    The bosses didn't count for the no-kills run, I believe, but the tutorial soldiers did - which is why I didn't get the "no-kills" achievement. I only found out about this long after finishing the game.

    I was very upset.

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    augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    The no-kill thing for the tutorial soldiers is so fucked. Like, the only moral thing to do as the unaugmented head of security in that scenario is to retaliate with deadly force. You're damn near reduced to watching stormtroopers mow down the people you care about and whom are your responsibility if you go stealth in that section.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    It would have been better if you'd had some kind of non-lethal option to take them out in the tutorial. Like having the stun gun as an option - notably underpowered compared to the machine gun, and liable to get you killed if you tried to use it in a straight firefight, or some melee takedowns (though they might have had to make sure the animations didn't require aug-strength to be viable).
    Just something that wasn't hiding from the people it was actually your job to neutralise.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    BRIAN BLESSEDBRIAN BLESSED Maybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHH Registered User regular
    They should have given Jensen the ability to do infinite takedowns just to cement how badass an operative he was before he even became an aug (and give the tutorial a greater breadth of what it actually taught)

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    PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    I generally always take the non-lethal, stealthy path in games that give me that option.

    But in my recent HR playthrough I've been mowing down all Belltower Spec-Ops soldiers, because it feels like what Jensen would actually do after the traumatic events at the start of the game.

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    DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    I never go for any sort of set plan for an entire game as that feels unnatural. Just do whatever the situation calls for.

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    never dienever die Registered User regular
    My favorite run-through of HR will be the one where I went fully non-lethal melee, except for bosses (and the crashed helicopter sequence, I used grenades there for the robots). Nothing makes you feel more bad-ass than taking down a whole room full of people with machine guns with your robot fists.

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    ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2016
    never die wrote: »
    My favorite run-through of HR will be the one where I went fully non-lethal melee, except for bosses (and the crashed helicopter sequence, I used grenades there for the robots). Nothing makes you feel more bad-ass than taking down a whole room full of people with machine guns with your robot fists.

    ...and tossing their unconscious bodies down a sewer manhole.

    After I did that, I went down in the sewer to check to see if they were still unconscious. I immediately reloaded as soon as I saw the "Zzz" replaced by a skull and crossbones. Although, I'm not sure if it was the fall down the manhole that killed him or the all-steel garbage dumpster I might have throwncarefully placed on his unconscious body...

    But seriously, though. My first playthrough I went 99% non-lethal (that 1% was the tutorial mission and didn't realize those guys counted), and I just giggled incessantly at the thought of all those unconscious security guards waking up in either a) the AC ducts I stuffed them in, or b) in a giant orgy-pile of other unconscious security guards.

    As an example of option b:
    eiq691dl31cq.jpg

    Erlkönig on
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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    I always disliked how a lethal takedown caused noise and a non-lethal did not. It really foiled the incentives from where they should be.

    Plus the whole "non-lethal" thing makes no sense against an organization that made a lethal assault on a civilian corporation with no provocation. There is no "well the kooks don't know they're evil" thing because they're just guards for an org that hasn't done anything overt and/or has legitimate authority.

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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular

    Goumindong wrote: »
    I always disliked how a lethal takedown caused noise and a non-lethal did not. It really foiled the incentives from where they should be.

    Plus the whole "non-lethal" thing makes no sense against an organization that made a lethal assault on a civilian corporation with no provocation. There is no "well the kooks don't know they're evil" thing because they're just guards for an org that hasn't done anything overt and/or has legitimate authority.

    It's a bit like calling Snake a pacifist because it's "possible" for him to complete a mission without killing anyone. But canon Snake always used reasonable force and didn't make any excuses for it. His grumbling about being an old killer hired to do some wetwork doesn't make sense if you take the mindset, "well I tranq'ed everyone, so Snake never killed anyone."

    I like those systems for the challenge, and for making it possible to take pity on enemy forces. But it starts getting goofy when you start making claims like, "the ONLY way to ever play a Metal Gear/Deus Ex game is perfect stealth/pacifist." Because the story just does not bear that out.

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    ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I always disliked how a lethal takedown caused noise and a non-lethal did not. It really foiled the incentives from where they should be.

    Plus the whole "non-lethal" thing makes no sense against an organization that made a lethal assault on a civilian corporation with no provocation. There is no "well the kooks don't know they're evil" thing because they're just guards for an org that hasn't done anything overt and/or has legitimate authority.

    It's a bit like calling Snake a pacifist because it's "possible" for him to complete a mission without killing anyone. But canon Snake always used reasonable force and didn't make any excuses for it. His grumbling about being an old killer hired to do some wetwork doesn't make sense if you take the mindset, "well I tranq'ed everyone, so Snake never killed anyone."

    I like those systems for the challenge, and for making it possible to take pity on enemy forces. But it starts getting goofy when you start making claims like, "the ONLY way to ever play a Metal Gear/Deus Ex game is perfect stealth/pacifist." Because the story just does not bear that out.

    Jensen has 3-foot long carbon-fiber machetes embedded in his arms. Obviously the only way to play the game is to never, ever use them as they are only meant for slicing fruits and veg.

    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
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    never dienever die Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I always disliked how a lethal takedown caused noise and a non-lethal did not. It really foiled the incentives from where they should be.

    Plus the whole "non-lethal" thing makes no sense against an organization that made a lethal assault on a civilian corporation with no provocation. There is no "well the kooks don't know they're evil" thing because they're just guards for an org that hasn't done anything overt and/or has legitimate authority.

    It's a bit like calling Snake a pacifist because it's "possible" for him to complete a mission without killing anyone. But canon Snake always used reasonable force and didn't make any excuses for it. His grumbling about being an old killer hired to do some wetwork doesn't make sense if you take the mindset, "well I tranq'ed everyone, so Snake never killed anyone."

    I like those systems for the challenge, and for making it possible to take pity on enemy forces. But it starts getting goofy when you start making claims like, "the ONLY way to ever play a Metal Gear/Deus Ex game is perfect stealth/pacifist." Because the story just does not bear that out.

    Yeah, I had shit tons of fun with my Jensen robotic Punch Guy playthrough, but the first time I play through these games I try to be stealthy, but don't shy away from using weapons.

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    Dr. ChaosDr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
    edited August 2016
    I always thought of and like to play Jensen as augmented Batman.

    He never kills but he doesn't shy away from violence/sneaking up and punching somebody in the face and breaking an arm or two.

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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    Even if you tranq everyone as Snake there are people who will canonically die as a result, so he's still killing lots of people even if its not all the grunts.

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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited August 2016
    Even if you tranq everyone as Snake there are people who will canonically die as a result, so he's still killing lots of people even if its not all the grunts.

    I killed so many people as Snake.

    On purpose.

    If you're wearing tranq-proof armor you might as well be goading me into shooting you in the head with an anti-materiel rifle.

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    BRIAN BLESSEDBRIAN BLESSED Maybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHH Registered User regular
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I always disliked how a lethal takedown caused noise and a non-lethal did not. It really foiled the incentives from where they should be.

    Plus the whole "non-lethal" thing makes no sense against an organization that made a lethal assault on a civilian corporation with no provocation. There is no "well the kooks don't know they're evil" thing because they're just guards for an org that hasn't done anything overt and/or has legitimate authority.

    It's a bit like calling Snake a pacifist because it's "possible" for him to complete a mission without killing anyone. But canon Snake always used reasonable force and didn't make any excuses for it. His grumbling about being an old killer hired to do some wetwork doesn't make sense if you take the mindset, "well I tranq'ed everyone, so Snake never killed anyone."

    I like those systems for the challenge, and for making it possible to take pity on enemy forces. But it starts getting goofy when you start making claims like, "the ONLY way to ever play a Metal Gear/Deus Ex game is perfect stealth/pacifist." Because the story just does not bear that out.

    Jensen has 3-foot long carbon-fiber machetes embedded in his arms. Obviously the only way to play the game is to never, ever use them as they are only meant for slicing fruits and veg.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meJckIFWFR0

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    yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    So some people are mad at the Deus Ex dev team for an Augs Lives Matters sign in some game art and for using the word apartheid in their story. I keep seeing the word appropriation getting tossed around. I fall pretty far left on the political spectrum, but none of those things mentioned above even registered as problematic until I read other people's reactions. Are these fair criticisms?

    I tend to think if you're telling a story about state sanctioned discrimination and violence towards a class of people that it's perfectly reasonable to pull from resent and current history. The fact that it bothers people is kind of the point.

    "I see everything twice!"


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    PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    So some people are mad at the Deus Ex dev team for an Augs Lives Matters sign in some game art and for using the word apartheid in their story. I keep seeing the word appropriation getting tossed around. I fall pretty far left on the political spectrum, but none of those things mentioned above even registered as problematic until I read other people's reactions. Are these fair criticisms?

    I tend to think if you're telling a story about state sanctioned discrimination and violence towards a class of people that it's perfectly reasonable to pull from resent and current history. The fact that it bothers people is kind of the point.

    While I agree with you, I can also understand that if you're part of a minority fighting against the disproportional (and lethal) violence your demographic is currently facing, you might not be too thrilled to see your message copied and used for a fictional conflict in what is essentially an entertainment product.

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    yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    A fair point, but I rarely see people complaining about movies or tv shows that do exactly the same thing. Entertainment is an excellent medium for reaching people and has been used in this role for decades.

    "I see everything twice!"


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    PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    Also keep in mind that "All Lives Matter" had already been created in an attempt to disregard the "Black Lives Matter" slogan. Their message is by no means accepted as true or relevant yet, and still under attack. Looking at "<fictional people> Lives Matter" in that context, I can see how it might be viewed as yet another way in which their message is not taken seriously.

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    oxblowoxblow Registered User regular
    Just finished a playthrough of the Director's Cut in preparation for Mankind Divided. Seems like there's actually a fair bit of setup for the sequel in the DLC section. I wonder if we'll make it to the rumoured Moon Base.

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    DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    Yeah, all the "anti-mutant" stuff in the X-Men is pretty much a copy of racial bigotry. I never heard anyone complain that the X-Men were making light of real racism.

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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Also keep in mind that "All Lives Matter" had already been created in an attempt to disregard the "Black Lives Matter" slogan. Their message is by no means accepted as true or relevant yet, and still under attack. Looking at "<fictional people> Lives Matter" in that context, I can see how it might be viewed as yet another way in which their message is not taken seriously.

    And yet conversely, I think it's also reasonable to see it as 'this movement has such lasting impact on history and culture that it springs to mind over a decade later'. They've mentioned apartheid as well, to some light criticism from what I've seen.

    I think it's important how those movements/situations/etc are handled in game. If it's the butt end of a joke or handled dismissively, sure, that's pretty awful, but in referencing other political movements/organizations and the situations around them, there's room for some political commentary as well as fleshing out their setting.

    Do I expect a deep and nuanced debate in this game between segments shooting people in the face with giant arm blades? Not really, but without further information it seems a bit early to condemn even mentioning/referencing BLM.

    Guess we'll find out if it's anything but a marketing reference in a couple of weeks. I don't expect much, but am cautiously optimistic all the same.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    KadokenKadoken Giving Ends to my Friends and it Feels Stupendous Registered User regular
    I have never seen a black person control the weather, destroy bridges with their minds, or shoot laser beams from their eyes.

    X-Men were never a good analogy for racism, people with those powers should be feared and kept careful watch over.

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    hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I have never seen a black person control the weather, destroy bridges with their minds, or shoot laser beams from their eyes.

    X-Men were never a good analogy for racism, people with those powers should be feared and kept careful watch over.

    I think you mistake facsimile for analogy. The entire point was that the X-Men had cool powers that kids would also want to have. That's where the rhetorical power lies. There's very little rhetorical power in, "Hey kids, imagine you're just like you are now, except people hate you for no reason! Wouldn't that be unfair?!"

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    DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    I know it's getting off topic, but one thing I love about when X-Men writers remember that Xavier's is supposed to be a school, is that most mutants aren't really superheroes and have some pretty lame "powers". They can't really fight back the way people like Cyclops or Wolverine can.

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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    They even address it a few times where mutants who can pass as 'normal' are a target of frustration for those with obvious mutations. Having great powers and appearing normal (and obviously super fit and rocking skin tight costumes as comic book characters are commonly shown doing) is kind of a double whammy when your 'mutation' is, I dunno, having giant crab claws for hands, or bright green skin that smells like rotting garbage or something.

    The 'mutant cure' storylines they do sometimes at least glance at it directly. With a setting like Deus Ex I could see some similar frustrations. Having an obvious mechanical arm being vastly more noticeable than, say, someone who needed a foot replaced due to an injury. I know they seem to commonly show the more 'blade style' feet, but if it was something that otherwise functioned like a foot and fit in a shoe or boot, you could probably avoid detection. Or those that simply needed internal work done, though there's often some kind of skin level appearance of augmentation, so I guess taking ones shirt off at the beach would be complicated (or dating, as another example).

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    Space PickleSpace Pickle Registered User regular
    oxblow wrote: »
    Just finished a playthrough of the Director's Cut in preparation for Mankind Divided. Seems like there's actually a fair bit of setup for the sequel in the DLC section. I wonder if we'll make it to the rumoured Moon Base.

    Seeing as there was a moon base referenced in DX1, this would be pretty cool!

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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I don't know how long the price will remain, but GreenManGaming has this for 25% off currently (base game for $45 Canadian, Digital Deluxe for around $68).

    I do know that some people loathe pre-orders, and it's not at all a bad idea to wait and see what the actual reviews are, but for those inclined to pick it up regardless, I figured I'd mention it to save them a few bucks.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    Showing 10% off for USians.

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    finnithfinnith ... TorontoRegistered User regular
    The one weird thing I find about the apartheid thing is that it's the augmented people that are subject to discrimination. You'd think the people who can attach hidden miniguns/machetes to their arms would be the advantaged class, but I guess it lines up more with how mechanically-augmented people were described as in the original Deus Ex.

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    LeumasWhiteLeumasWhite New ZealandRegistered User regular
    finnith wrote: »
    The one weird thing I find about the apartheid thing is that it's the augmented people that are subject to discrimination. You'd think the people who can attach hidden miniguns/machetes to their arms would be the advantaged class, but I guess it lines up more with how mechanically-augmented people were described as in the original Deus Ex.

    I think the majority of them fall into the Xavier schoolkids camp; they have robo-kidneys and mech-lungs, not Jensen's sweet fighting gear. Your common thug might have a knife eye attack, but most are regular people.

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    DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    finnith wrote: »
    The one weird thing I find about the apartheid thing is that it's the augmented people that are subject to discrimination. You'd think the people who can attach hidden miniguns/machetes to their arms would be the advantaged class, but I guess it lines up more with how mechanically-augmented people were described as in the original Deus Ex.

    I think the majority of them fall into the Xavier schoolkids camp; they have robo-kidneys and mech-lungs, not Jensen's sweet fighting gear. Your common thug might have a knife eye attack, but most are regular people.

    Yea I mean that's kinda like the entire point.

    It's a bunch of innocent people who were just trying to make their lives better/have a chance at living a normal life getting caught up in the whole ordeal.

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    Blackbird SR-71CBlackbird SR-71C Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I always disliked how a lethal takedown caused noise and a non-lethal did not. It really foiled the incentives from where they should be.

    Plus the whole "non-lethal" thing makes no sense against an organization that made a lethal assault on a civilian corporation with no provocation. There is no "well the kooks don't know they're evil" thing because they're just guards for an org that hasn't done anything overt and/or has legitimate authority.

    It's a bit like calling Snake a pacifist because it's "possible" for him to complete a mission without killing anyone. But canon Snake always used reasonable force and didn't make any excuses for it. His grumbling about being an old killer hired to do some wetwork doesn't make sense if you take the mindset, "well I tranq'ed everyone, so Snake never killed anyone."

    I like those systems for the challenge, and for making it possible to take pity on enemy forces. But it starts getting goofy when you start making claims like, "the ONLY way to ever play a Metal Gear/Deus Ex game is perfect stealth/pacifist." Because the story just does not bear that out.

    "Canon Snake", no matter which Snake we're talking about, is also regarded as a legend, the best of the best; And the best rank in the game includes never killing anyone in any game except for MGS V.

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    SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I always disliked how a lethal takedown caused noise and a non-lethal did not. It really foiled the incentives from where they should be.

    Plus the whole "non-lethal" thing makes no sense against an organization that made a lethal assault on a civilian corporation with no provocation. There is no "well the kooks don't know they're evil" thing because they're just guards for an org that hasn't done anything overt and/or has legitimate authority.

    It's a bit like calling Snake a pacifist because it's "possible" for him to complete a mission without killing anyone. But canon Snake always used reasonable force and didn't make any excuses for it. His grumbling about being an old killer hired to do some wetwork doesn't make sense if you take the mindset, "well I tranq'ed everyone, so Snake never killed anyone."

    I like those systems for the challenge, and for making it possible to take pity on enemy forces. But it starts getting goofy when you start making claims like, "the ONLY way to ever play a Metal Gear/Deus Ex game is perfect stealth/pacifist." Because the story just does not bear that out.

    "Canon Snake", no matter which Snake we're talking about, is also regarded as a legend, the best of the best; And the best rank in the game includes never killing anyone in any game except for MGS V.

    Yeah but the game ranks are a function of gameplay challenge, not in-fiction badassery.

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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I always disliked how a lethal takedown caused noise and a non-lethal did not. It really foiled the incentives from where they should be.

    Plus the whole "non-lethal" thing makes no sense against an organization that made a lethal assault on a civilian corporation with no provocation. There is no "well the kooks don't know they're evil" thing because they're just guards for an org that hasn't done anything overt and/or has legitimate authority.

    It's a bit like calling Snake a pacifist because it's "possible" for him to complete a mission without killing anyone. But canon Snake always used reasonable force and didn't make any excuses for it. His grumbling about being an old killer hired to do some wetwork doesn't make sense if you take the mindset, "well I tranq'ed everyone, so Snake never killed anyone."

    I like those systems for the challenge, and for making it possible to take pity on enemy forces. But it starts getting goofy when you start making claims like, "the ONLY way to ever play a Metal Gear/Deus Ex game is perfect stealth/pacifist." Because the story just does not bear that out.

    "Canon Snake", no matter which Snake we're talking about, is also regarded as a legend, the best of the best; And the best rank in the game includes never killing anyone in any game except for MGS V.

    It's a bit difficult to explain for example, Liquid's claim that Snake has been killing Genome soldiers left and right, if you're going for a BB rank in Twin Snake. Because the original game wasn't designed to be played non-lethally, it just ported over the tranq mechanic from MGS2.

    Or how Fatman and Vamp still explode into blood piles after you "tranq" them.

    Or how Snake still goes for a kill shot on Vamp in MGS4, and is directly responsible for his death by shutting off his powers. Not to mention the B&Bs can't survive outside their suits even if you subdue them.

    They're there for bonuses and to prove you're a badass.

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    mastertheheromasterthehero Professional Video Editor & Book Author Registered User regular
    Truth. Snake has always been a killer. Foxhound rank was just to prove that you were a bad ass gamer who could beat the game without killing anyone or being detected.

    Even Big Boss from Snake Eater, if you kill any of the Cobra unit non lethally, they die anyway. If there was an alternate cutscene where the villains get tranq'd instead of killed, then there might be some meat to the argument.

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    BRIAN BLESSEDBRIAN BLESSED Maybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHH Registered User regular
    edited August 2016
    I'm pretty sure the long-running narrative of the Snakes (and especially Big Boss) is that deep down they were all natural-born killers and that they all killed to get to where they became

    Likewise, in Human Revolution they reference the "Mexico incident" a fair few times when they bring Jensen's pre-augmentation history up and it wasn't like he was a total boy scout

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    SoundsPlushSoundsPlush yup, back. Registered User regular
    Likewise, in Human Revolution they reference the "Mexico incident" a fair few times when they bring Jensen's pre-augmentation history up and it wasn't like he was a total boy scout

    ...the one where he refused to shoot a kid?

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