You do have to respect the EU people for their effort to plug up all the plot holes and rationalize all the idiotic crap Lucas introduced in the prequels.
If it's not one of good versus evil, Jedi can end up entangled on both sides of the conflict. The bigger picture might be policies of greed and selfishness, but on the ground level it's about people (aliens or not) and, generally speaking, people tend to be reasonable, especially the ones on the ground level that want to live their lives in a decent place surrounded by agreeable neighbors with some kind of future they can entrust to their children. Total Jedi bait. The leaders of the competing ideologies may well be insufferable tools, but you get below that...it starts to become more difficult. Like it or not, there are millions of innocent galactic citizens involved.
It would actually be rather amusing if the Jedi that go out to cut up mans and save the day are considered bothersome rebels and the actual Jedi just stay in their temple on one planet all day being vague dicks and doing nothing. Vader didn't even bother to off them because they're functionally dead anyway.
I think they would stay out of the conflict.
The reason why they stayed out of the Mandalorian Wars is because it could echoes through the Force and create or amplify negative emotions. They believed that by meeting the Mandalorians in war, they would only feed the Mandalorian's blood lust and desire for battle, making them more cruel and aggressive. In fact that did happen and it took the atrocity of Malachor V to finally break the Mandalorian's will.
If they were to get involved in a conflict over greed and selfishness, that in turn could incite more jealousy and anger. Unless the Jedi are willing to just decapitate the leadership of various corrupt factions or incite rebellion, their attempts to help could be more harmful since helping the poor downtrodden people could just cause their governments to crack down harder.
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CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
What's the pitch the Jedi recruiter gives parents anyway?
"So, don't worry ma'am, your baby will be just fine. By age three, she'll be wielding a dangerous 4-foot-long cutting torch while wearing a welding helmet that impairs her vision, and by age ten she'll be tagging along on clandestine paramilitary black-ops. Plus, all her lunches are paid for!"
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CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
I mean, honestly, armor vs a lightsaber doesn't seem like it would do alot, at least how it was portrayed in the OT. In fact, if you were thinking that you were going to fight other light saber wielders you would probably want something incredibly light so it wouldn't hamper your mobility at all. Although, running around in dance leotard would not have been cool, even in the late 70s.
However, in all other non lightsaber dual situations, wearing armor would be preferred. I get it you can deflect blaster fire with your lightsaber, but just in case someone ganks you or you can't block it all, body armor would be practical and smart.
Fuck, they could wear armor (particularly helmets) for the same goddamn reason we wear armor (particularly helmets) in warfare: protection from shrapnel. Their horrific mortality aside, I bet no clonetrooper/stormtrooper ever died because a shard of oven-temperature steel or glass slit his jugular while he was sprinting across a battlefield and he bled to death in about five seconds.
Even if the Jedi could keep that from happening, I bet they'd still be better off with some protection from every explosion or cloud of shrapnel raining down on them in a battlefield.
You do have to respect the EU people for their effort to plug up all the plot holes and rationalize all the idiotic crap Lucas introduced in the prequels.
If it's not one of good versus evil, Jedi can end up entangled on both sides of the conflict. The bigger picture might be policies of greed and selfishness, but on the ground level it's about people (aliens or not) and, generally speaking, people tend to be reasonable, especially the ones on the ground level that want to live their lives in a decent place surrounded by agreeable neighbors with some kind of future they can entrust to their children. Total Jedi bait. The leaders of the competing ideologies may well be insufferable tools, but you get below that...it starts to become more difficult. Like it or not, there are millions of innocent galactic citizens involved.
It would actually be rather amusing if the Jedi that go out to cut up mans and save the day are considered bothersome rebels and the actual Jedi just stay in their temple on one planet all day being vague dicks and doing nothing. Vader didn't even bother to off them because they're functionally dead anyway.
I think they would stay out of the conflict.
The reason why they stayed out of the Mandalorian Wars is because it could echoes through the Force and create or amplify negative emotions. They believed that by meeting the Mandalorians in war, they would only feed the Mandalorian's blood lust and desire for battle, making them more cruel and aggressive. In fact that did happen and it took the atrocity of Malachor V to finally break the Mandalorian's will.
If they were to get involved in a conflict over greed and selfishness, that in turn could incite more jealousy and anger. Unless the Jedi are willing to just decapitate the leadership of various corrupt factions or incite rebellion, their attempts to help could be more harmful since helping the poor downtrodden people could just cause their governments to crack down harder.
The weak point in their plan though was that they had no plan. Had Revan not led his Jedi into the war, the Republic would have been crushed and things would have turned out a lot worse than they did (which was bad enough). Of all the useless Jedi Masters in KotoR 1 and 2, not one mentions having an actual alternative to Revan's plan.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
They even admit they were wrong if you choose the right conversation options in 2. A certain master
Vrook Lamar
that features in 2, that was a character in 1, not-withstanding. But it's blatantly apparent that he's just an ignorant blowhard from the first few moments you encounter him in 2, provided you pay attention.
Problem is, once they're all together, their ignorance reinforces each other, and they go back to being the same old useless Jedi dicks that they were in KOTOR 1.
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South hostI obey without questionRegistered Userregular
I mean, honestly, armor vs a lightsaber doesn't seem like it would do alot, at least how it was portrayed in the OT. In fact, if you were thinking that you were going to fight other light saber wielders you would probably want something incredibly light so it wouldn't hamper your mobility at all. Although, running around in dance leotard would not have been cool, even in the late 70s.
However, in all other non lightsaber dual situations, wearing armor would be preferred. I get it you can deflect blaster fire with your lightsaber, but just in case someone ganks you or you can't block it all, body armor would be practical and smart.
Fuck, they could wear armor (particularly helmets) for the same goddamn reason we wear armor (particularly helmets) in warfare: protection from shrapnel. Their horrific mortality aside, I bet no clonetrooper/stormtrooper ever died because a shard of oven-temperature steel or glass slit his jugular while he was sprinting across a battlefield and he bled to death in about five seconds.
Even if the Jedi could keep that from happening, I bet they'd still be better off with some protection from every explosion or cloud of shrapnel raining down on them in a battlefield.
Just a thought.
A helmet would also minimize a Jedi's chances of cracking their skull open if their vehicle crashes.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
It didn't seem too bad to me. Kind of how no matter what your job in the military is, you're still trained to use a gun.
Except that they're children? And I'm pretty sure the U.S. military does not hand M-16s to American kids and tell them to go practice sharpshooting?
I feel bad because it feels like I'm self promoting, but I really felt this was relevant:
Well, he doesn't get credit for it because it isn't in the movie but the books chronicling Obi-Wan Padawanship tells us that those wern't "real" light sabers. They would stay "hard" when blocking other lightsabers or blasters but pass through other things harmlessly.
The weak point in their plan though was that they had no plan. Had Revan not led his Jedi into the war, the Republic would have been crushed and things would have turned out a lot worse than they did (which was bad enough). Of all the useless Jedi Masters in KotoR 1 and 2, not one mentions having an actual alternative to Revan's plan.
Actually, the real problem was that the Republic was fractured by apathy and selfishness. It's not that they had no plan, it's that the Core Worlds didn't really care about what the Mandalorian were doing to the Rim Worlds. The Republic did not put up a real fight until the Core Worlds were threatened, and by then the Jedis had joined the war to take the burden from the Republic's leaders.
In fact, it's heavily implied that was the reason why the True Sith orchestrated the war. They didn't expect the Mandalorians to actually beat the Republic, they simply wanted the Mandalorians to expose the hypocrisy within the Republic so that its worlds will come to realize that they cannot depend on the Republic and they in turn will not support the Republic when it needs them.
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
Man, Star Wars is like Santa, only if, as you got older, Santa started punching you in the face for wising up.
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It didn't seem too bad to me. Kind of how no matter what your job in the military is, you're still trained to use a gun.
Except that they're children? And I'm pretty sure the U.S. military does not hand M-16s to American kids and tell them to go practice sharpshooting?
The military doesn't recruit children either. So not entirely apt since they tend not to give guns to people they don't recruit. But giving a kid a gun in and of itself isn't a terrible idea either. It's whether they're trained properly to use it. Which, I would imagine, the Jedi probably take in to consideration before handing one over.
I mean, honestly, armor vs a lightsaber doesn't seem like it would do alot, at least how it was portrayed in the OT. In fact, if you were thinking that you were going to fight other light saber wielders you would probably want something incredibly light so it wouldn't hamper your mobility at all. Although, running around in dance leotard would not have been cool, even in the late 70s.
However, in all other non lightsaber dual situations, wearing armor would be preferred. I get it you can deflect blaster fire with your lightsaber, but just in case someone ganks you or you can't block it all, body armor would be practical and smart.
Fuck, they could wear armor (particularly helmets) for the same goddamn reason we wear armor (particularly helmets) in warfare: protection from shrapnel. Their horrific mortality aside, I bet no clonetrooper/stormtrooper ever died because a shard of oven-temperature steel or glass slit his jugular while he was sprinting across a battlefield and he bled to death in about five seconds.
Even if the Jedi could keep that from happening, I bet they'd still be better off with some protection from every explosion or cloud of shrapnel raining down on them in a battlefield.
Just a thought.
IIRC, the Jedi started using lightsabers in the first place because of armor. Everybody started using shields to counter blasters. So everyone started using (vibro)swords to counter shields. So everyone started using heavy armor to counter swords. This is where lightsabers came in. They designed lightsabers to tear through heavy armor like a can opener. Eventually offensive tech won out over defense. Blasters could just cut through shields and armor, so people stopped using them, but Jedi stuck with their ceremonial weapons which were still the best defense against blasters anyhow.
I mean, honestly, armor vs a lightsaber doesn't seem like it would do alot, at least how it was portrayed in the OT. In fact, if you were thinking that you were going to fight other light saber wielders you would probably want something incredibly light so it wouldn't hamper your mobility at all. Although, running around in dance leotard would not have been cool, even in the late 70s.
However, in all other non lightsaber dual situations, wearing armor would be preferred. I get it you can deflect blaster fire with your lightsaber, but just in case someone ganks you or you can't block it all, body armor would be practical and smart.
Fuck, they could wear armor (particularly helmets) for the same goddamn reason we wear armor (particularly helmets) in warfare: protection from shrapnel. Their horrific mortality aside, I bet no clonetrooper/stormtrooper ever died because a shard of oven-temperature steel or glass slit his jugular while he was sprinting across a battlefield and he bled to death in about five seconds.
Even if the Jedi could keep that from happening, I bet they'd still be better off with some protection from every explosion or cloud of shrapnel raining down on them in a battlefield.
Just a thought.
IIRC, the Jedi started using lightsabers in the first place because of armor. Everybody started using shields to counter blasters. So everyone started using (vibro)swords to counter shields. So everyone started using heavy armor to counter swords. This is where lightsabers came in. They designed lightsabers to tear through heavy armor like a can opener. Eventually offensive tech won out over defense. Blasters could just cut through shields and armor, so people stopped using them, but Jedi stuck with their ceremonial weapons which were still the best defense against blasters anyhow.
Which, perhaps ironically, do shit against battlefield shrapnel (which historically accounts for a huge portion of injuries and deaths since the advent of gunpowder).
It didn't seem too bad to me. Kind of how no matter what your job in the military is, you're still trained to use a gun.
Except that they're children? And I'm pretty sure the U.S. military does not hand M-16s to American kids and tell them to go practice sharpshooting?
The military doesn't recruit children either. So not entirely apt since they tend not to give guns to people they don't recruit. But giving a kid a gun in and of itself isn't a terrible idea either. It's whether they're trained properly to use it. Which, I would imagine, the Jedi probably take in to consideration before handing one over.
A better example might be the Suvorov Schools in the CIS countries (and any American counterpart--wasn't there a Stalone movie where he's a truck driver and visits his young son in one?). They're basically military boarding schools for 14 to 17 year olds, and function primarily as secondary schools with some preparation for students to join military programs come college.
That in mind, you probably wouldn't give these guys and girls Kalashnikovs and RPGs, even if they are the seniormost students:
Or send them to a far-off war zone. And these kids were older than some of the younglings.
It is one of the things that gets me about the Clone Wars show, in which Asoka is like 14-16 years old and they don't really show any effect on her for growing up while cutting people's heads off.
A better example might be the Suvorov Schools in the CIS countries (and any American counterpart--wasn't there a Stalone movie where he's a truck driver and visits his young son in one?). They're basically military boarding schools for 14 to 17 year olds, and function primarily as secondary schools with some preparation for students to join military programs come college.
That in mind, you probably wouldn't give these guys and girls Kalashnikovs and RPGs, even if they are the seniormost students:
Or send them to a far-off war zone. And these kids were older than some of the younglings.
Maybe it's just living in different environments, but I have nieces and nephews who were handling rifles at around 5 years old each and with better muzzle control than plenty of adults I've seen. So giving any of them an AK wouldn't worry me in the slightest. Except for the fact that it'd be useless in little kid hands.
And it's not like the kids were the ones being sent off to fight. As far as I saw padawans actually fighting with the other jedi were in their late teens. Which is pretty much when we start sending people off to war anyway. They were just being taught to use a weapon everyone in the order had at least some proficiency with. Which as was the point in the beginning, probably similar to how everyone in the military has arms training regardless of whether they'll ever use a gun again.
What's the pitch the Jedi recruiter gives parents anyway?
You're child gets to join the most prestigious organization in the galaxy and become a hero of the Republic. And if they stay here they might turn into a psychopath and kill everyone.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
The Jedi wear robes because they are not primarily a military organization. Also they don't need it when they have the Force and high Dex.
They might not primary be a military organization, it's just many activities they end up being involved in violent or military activities because of their position being the ruling galactic government's allies. Their ambassador roles are occasionally spy missions in disguise, too.
The Jedi wear robes because they are not primarily a military organization. Also they don't need it when they have the Force and high Dex.
They might not primary be a military organization, it's just many activities they end up being involved in violent or military activities because of their position being the ruling galactic government's allies. Their ambassador roles are occasionally spy missions in disguise, too.
Violence is a last resort.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
The Jedi wear robes because they are not primarily a military organization. Also they don't need it when they have the Force and high Dex.
They might not primary be a military organization, it's just many activities they end up being involved in violent or military activities because of their position being the ruling galactic government's allies. Their ambassador roles are occasionally spy missions in disguise, too.
Violence is a last resort.
Spy missions, yes. Military missions? The lightsabers come out quickly. The Jedi don't hold back much in the Clone Wars cartoons, either.
The Jedi wear robes because they are not primarily a military organization. Also they don't need it when they have the Force and high Dex.
They might not primary be a military organization, it's just many activities they end up being involved in violent or military activities because of their position being the ruling galactic government's allies. Their ambassador roles are occasionally spy missions in disguise, too.
Violence is a last resort.
Spy missions, yes. Military missions? The lightsabers come out quickly. The Jedi don't hold back much in the Clone Wars cartoons, either.
They aren't supposed to be going on military missions.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
The Jedi wear robes because they are not primarily a military organization. Also they don't need it when they have the Force and high Dex.
They might not primary be a military organization, it's just many activities they end up being involved in violent or military activities because of their position being the ruling galactic government's allies. Their ambassador roles are occasionally spy missions in disguise, too.
Violence is a last resort.
Spy missions, yes. Military missions? The lightsabers come out quickly. The Jedi don't hold back much in the Clone Wars cartoons, either.
They aren't supposed to be going on military missions.
In the prequels, Clone Wars cartoons & EU a large amount of their missions for the galactic government is military work. For a peaceful order they sure get involved in violent situations a lot.
The Jedi wear robes because they are not primarily a military organization. Also they don't need it when they have the Force and high Dex.
They might not primary be a military organization, it's just many activities they end up being involved in violent or military activities because of their position being the ruling galactic government's allies. Their ambassador roles are occasionally spy missions in disguise, too.
Violence is a last resort.
Spy missions, yes. Military missions? The lightsabers come out quickly. The Jedi don't hold back much in the Clone Wars cartoons, either.
They aren't supposed to be going on military missions.
In the prequels, Clone Wars cartoons & EU a large amount of their missions for the galactic government is military work. For a peaceful order they sure get involved in violent situations a lot.
And Revan proves just how well that turns out. That they forgot this lesson in the Clone Wars is part of what doomed them.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
The Jedi wear robes because they are not primarily a military organization. Also they don't need it when they have the Force and high Dex.
They might not primary be a military organization, it's just many activities they end up being involved in violent or military activities because of their position being the ruling galactic government's allies. Their ambassador roles are occasionally spy missions in disguise, too.
Violence is a last resort.
Spy missions, yes. Military missions? The lightsabers come out quickly. The Jedi don't hold back much in the Clone Wars cartoons, either.
They aren't supposed to be going on military missions.
In the prequels, Clone Wars cartoons & EU a large amount of their missions for the galactic government is military work. For a peaceful order they sure get involved in violent situations a lot.
And Revan proves just how well that turns out. That they forgot this lesson in the Clone Wars is part of what doomed them.
The idea original was that the jedi were kind of roving common-law magistrates; they'd go from place to place resolving disputes and figuring shit out and so on. Which is actually a somewhat-elegant solution to a large, diversely-populated territory with a variety of customs. Sort of like the traveling judges that were common on the american frontier.
Obviously they could fight, but this was not their primary function.
The dispute between Revan and Vrook et al was that Revan is saying "people are being slaughtered on the Rim, we have an obligation to help them," and the council saying "we're not the military, so no we aren't." There isn't a correct answer to that question, really.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The idea original was that the jedi were kind of roving common-law magistrates; they'd go from place to place resolving disputes and figuring shit out and so on. Which is actually a somewhat-elegant solution to a large, diversely-populated territory with a variety of customs. Sort of like the traveling judges that were common on the american frontier.
Obviously they could fight, but this was not their primary function.
The dispute between Revan and Vrook et al was that Revan is saying "people are being slaughtered on the Rim, we have an obligation to help them," and the council saying "we're not the military, so no we aren't." There isn't a correct answer to that question, really.
In all the Wars films, cartoons, comics and novels I've read the Jedi have never been roving magistrates. They're either ambassadors, political advisors, soldiers or spies.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
It all stems from the paradox of having a order of combat-trained irregulars in the service of a government in which they're not supposed to involve themselves in martial solutions or enforcement. All of that is at odds with itself. You don't train someone to be a sword-ninja and then send them in hostile situations as a peace ambassador.
They're honestly better off written as a marshal-type service, not unlike the Texas Rangers, where they absolutely DO NOT go in to negotiate peace, nor do they start a bunch of shit and lead battalions. They slip in, fuck people up in a very specific manner, and either arrest them or kill them if need be. The Force is used as guidance in making those decisions, and the Jedi should exist completely outside the Republic's authority.
Matter of fact, the authority of the Jedi should have been one of the central conflicts of the PT. Alas.
The idea original was that the jedi were kind of roving common-law magistrates; they'd go from place to place resolving disputes and figuring shit out and so on. Which is actually a somewhat-elegant solution to a large, diversely-populated territory with a variety of customs. Sort of like the traveling judges that were common on the american frontier.
Obviously they could fight, but this was not their primary function.
The dispute between Revan and Vrook et al was that Revan is saying "people are being slaughtered on the Rim, we have an obligation to help them," and the council saying "we're not the military, so no we aren't." There isn't a correct answer to that question, really.
In all the Wars films, cartoons, comics and novels I've read the Jedi have never been roving magistrates. They're either ambassadors, political advisors, soldiers or spies.
well right, because you know what most of the non-soldier/spy stuff is? Really fucking boring.
I know it's touched on in some of the earlier EU books that took place after the OT, though, while luke's trying to rebuild the order.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
well right, because you know what most of the non-soldier/spy stuff is? Really fucking boring.
It doesn't have to be. Ross' Jedi being Texas Rangers analogs would be fascinating to read. They can go in many directions with that premise.
I know it's touched on in some of the earlier EU books that took place after the OT, though, while luke's trying to rebuild the order.
Only started reading the EU with New Jedi Order. I did hear there was a Jedi noir story, Crescent Nights or something? That sounded interesting. I'd like to see more stories like that. Not everything has to be huge multi-book galaxy wide military missions. Nor does the EU need to revolve around the Solo/Skywalker families or Luke/Han/Leia.
It all stems from the paradox of having a order of combat-trained irregulars in the service of a government in which they're not supposed to involve themselves in martial solutions or enforcement. All of that is at odds with itself. You don't train someone to be a sword-ninja and then send them in hostile situations as a peace ambassador.
You certainly can. In fact that's possibly the reason why the Order is so strange. It's a system designed to take children and teach them to control god-like powers that make them living weapons, and to in turn control them so that this phenomenal ability is not turned against the common man. The whole system is designed to create a personality capable of resisting the temptation to abuse that kind of power. That it works as well as it does for as long as it does is a small miracle. The fact that the Republic hasn't been overrun by Force wielding despots thousands of years ago is proof enough that the system at least partially works.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
The idea original was that the jedi were kind of roving common-law magistrates; they'd go from place to place resolving disputes and figuring shit out and so on. Which is actually a somewhat-elegant solution to a large, diversely-populated territory with a variety of customs. Sort of like the traveling judges that were common on the american frontier.
Obviously they could fight, but this was not their primary function.
The dispute between Revan and Vrook et al was that Revan is saying "people are being slaughtered on the Rim, we have an obligation to help them," and the council saying "we're not the military, so no we aren't." There isn't a correct answer to that question, really.
In all the Wars films, cartoons, comics and novels I've read the Jedi have never been roving magistrates. They're either ambassadors, political advisors, soldiers or spies.
well right, because you know what most of the non-soldier/spy stuff is? Really fucking boring.
I know it's touched on in some of the earlier EU books that took place after the OT, though, while luke's trying to rebuild the order.
Ever read "Planetary"?
Superheros as archaeologists.
It's one of the best comics I've ever read.
Soldiers and spies are the easiest stories, but it's a criminal lack of imagination to have them be the only ones.
In all the Wars films, cartoons, comics and novels I've read the Jedi have never been roving magistrates. They're either ambassadors, political advisors, soldiers or spies.
I remember at least once in one of the KOTOR games I was just acting as a detective of sorts. Fighting still happened but that was more because of the game than any expectation of fighting be necessary.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
well right, because you know what most of the non-soldier/spy stuff is? Really fucking boring.
It doesn't have to be. Ross' Jedi being Texas Rangers analogs would be fascinating to read. They can go in many directions with that premise.
In my wankery, the Jedi have the honored tradition of being a group of irregular marshals that have always served at the pleasure of the Republic, but never as political representatives. Their lengthy history of benevolence has allowed the Order to peacefully coexist with the Republic as an allied partner with shared interests, but never at their behest or control.
When Palpatine starts freaking out about the Jedi refusing his orders and outright working against him, he goes apey and frames them, giving him a believable reason to order their disbanding. Basically a re-engineered version of The Three Musketeers, with Ben Kenobi as Athos, Anakin as D'Artagnan, Tarkin as Rochefort, and Palpatine as Richelieu.
well right, because you know what most of the non-soldier/spy stuff is? Really fucking boring.
It doesn't have to be. Ross' Jedi being Texas Rangers analogs would be fascinating to read. They can go in many directions with that premise.
In my wankery, the Jedi have the honored tradition of being a group of irregular marshals that have always served at the pleasure of the Republic, but never as political representatives. Their lengthy history of benevolence has allowed the Order to peacefully coexist with the Republic as an allied partner with shared interests, but never at their behest or control.
When Palpatine starts freaking out about the Jedi refusing his orders and outright working against him, he goes apey and frames them, giving him a believable reason to order their disbanding. Basically a re-engineered version of The Three Musketeers, with Ben Kenobi as Athos, Anakin as D'Artagnan, Tarkin as Rochefort, and Palpatine as Richelieu.
You need to get a talented fanfic writer to do something with that.
In all the Wars films, cartoons, comics and novels I've read the Jedi have never been roving magistrates. They're either ambassadors, political advisors, soldiers or spies.
I remember at least once in one of the KOTOR games I was just acting as a detective of sorts. Fighting still happened but that was more because of the game than any expectation of fighting be necessary.
Was that the trial on Manaan? Also in the EU one of the first books written (the 2nd Timonthy Zahn one) has Luke sorting out a dispute in a bar because one of people having the dispute sees he is a jedi and both sides will trust a jedi's judgement. Also when that mad jedi clone trains Luke a bit his "training" is mostly taking Luke around and acting like a magistrate.
Posts
The what?
Yeah. Prepare to have your mind blown at all the weird jazz Lucas was cooking up in the 1970s.
You do have to respect the EU people for their effort to plug up all the plot holes and rationalize all the idiotic crap Lucas introduced in the prequels.
I think they would stay out of the conflict.
The reason why they stayed out of the Mandalorian Wars is because it could echoes through the Force and create or amplify negative emotions. They believed that by meeting the Mandalorians in war, they would only feed the Mandalorian's blood lust and desire for battle, making them more cruel and aggressive. In fact that did happen and it took the atrocity of Malachor V to finally break the Mandalorian's will.
If they were to get involved in a conflict over greed and selfishness, that in turn could incite more jealousy and anger. Unless the Jedi are willing to just decapitate the leadership of various corrupt factions or incite rebellion, their attempts to help could be more harmful since helping the poor downtrodden people could just cause their governments to crack down harder.
I feel bad because it feels like I'm self promoting, but I really felt this was relevant:
Twitter: Cokomon | dA: Cokomon | Tumblr: Cokomon-art | XBL / NNID / Steam: Cokomon
"So, don't worry ma'am, your baby will be just fine. By age three, she'll be wielding a dangerous 4-foot-long cutting torch while wearing a welding helmet that impairs her vision, and by age ten she'll be tagging along on clandestine paramilitary black-ops. Plus, all her lunches are paid for!"
"We're taking you're child to become a Jedi and that's that!"
Twitter: Cokomon | dA: Cokomon | Tumblr: Cokomon-art | XBL / NNID / Steam: Cokomon
I mean, how exactly do you spin "child soldier come the next intergalactic war" positively?
"Oh, that's nothing. You should have seen the parents' face when we took her in the first place!"
Fuck, they could wear armor (particularly helmets) for the same goddamn reason we wear armor (particularly helmets) in warfare: protection from shrapnel. Their horrific mortality aside, I bet no clonetrooper/stormtrooper ever died because a shard of oven-temperature steel or glass slit his jugular while he was sprinting across a battlefield and he bled to death in about five seconds.
Even if the Jedi could keep that from happening, I bet they'd still be better off with some protection from every explosion or cloud of shrapnel raining down on them in a battlefield.
Just a thought.
The weak point in their plan though was that they had no plan. Had Revan not led his Jedi into the war, the Republic would have been crushed and things would have turned out a lot worse than they did (which was bad enough). Of all the useless Jedi Masters in KotoR 1 and 2, not one mentions having an actual alternative to Revan's plan.
Problem is, once they're all together, their ignorance reinforces each other, and they go back to being the same old useless Jedi dicks that they were in KOTOR 1.
A helmet would also minimize a Jedi's chances of cracking their skull open if their vehicle crashes.
Well, he doesn't get credit for it because it isn't in the movie but the books chronicling Obi-Wan Padawanship tells us that those wern't "real" light sabers. They would stay "hard" when blocking other lightsabers or blasters but pass through other things harmlessly.
Actually, the real problem was that the Republic was fractured by apathy and selfishness. It's not that they had no plan, it's that the Core Worlds didn't really care about what the Mandalorian were doing to the Rim Worlds. The Republic did not put up a real fight until the Core Worlds were threatened, and by then the Jedis had joined the war to take the burden from the Republic's leaders.
In fact, it's heavily implied that was the reason why the True Sith orchestrated the war. They didn't expect the Mandalorians to actually beat the Republic, they simply wanted the Mandalorians to expose the hypocrisy within the Republic so that its worlds will come to realize that they cannot depend on the Republic and they in turn will not support the Republic when it needs them.
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The military doesn't recruit children either. So not entirely apt since they tend not to give guns to people they don't recruit. But giving a kid a gun in and of itself isn't a terrible idea either. It's whether they're trained properly to use it. Which, I would imagine, the Jedi probably take in to consideration before handing one over.
IIRC, the Jedi started using lightsabers in the first place because of armor. Everybody started using shields to counter blasters. So everyone started using (vibro)swords to counter shields. So everyone started using heavy armor to counter swords. This is where lightsabers came in. They designed lightsabers to tear through heavy armor like a can opener. Eventually offensive tech won out over defense. Blasters could just cut through shields and armor, so people stopped using them, but Jedi stuck with their ceremonial weapons which were still the best defense against blasters anyhow.
Which, perhaps ironically, do shit against battlefield shrapnel (which historically accounts for a huge portion of injuries and deaths since the advent of gunpowder).
A better example might be the Suvorov Schools in the CIS countries (and any American counterpart--wasn't there a Stalone movie where he's a truck driver and visits his young son in one?). They're basically military boarding schools for 14 to 17 year olds, and function primarily as secondary schools with some preparation for students to join military programs come college.
That in mind, you probably wouldn't give these guys and girls Kalashnikovs and RPGs, even if they are the seniormost students:
Or send them to a far-off war zone. And these kids were older than some of the younglings.
Maybe it's just living in different environments, but I have nieces and nephews who were handling rifles at around 5 years old each and with better muzzle control than plenty of adults I've seen. So giving any of them an AK wouldn't worry me in the slightest. Except for the fact that it'd be useless in little kid hands.
And it's not like the kids were the ones being sent off to fight. As far as I saw padawans actually fighting with the other jedi were in their late teens. Which is pretty much when we start sending people off to war anyway. They were just being taught to use a weapon everyone in the order had at least some proficiency with. Which as was the point in the beginning, probably similar to how everyone in the military has arms training regardless of whether they'll ever use a gun again.
You're child gets to join the most prestigious organization in the galaxy and become a hero of the Republic. And if they stay here they might turn into a psychopath and kill everyone.
They might not primary be a military organization, it's just many activities they end up being involved in violent or military activities because of their position being the ruling galactic government's allies. Their ambassador roles are occasionally spy missions in disguise, too.
Violence is a last resort.
Spy missions, yes. Military missions? The lightsabers come out quickly. The Jedi don't hold back much in the Clone Wars cartoons, either.
They aren't supposed to be going on military missions.
In the prequels, Clone Wars cartoons & EU a large amount of their missions for the galactic government is military work. For a peaceful order they sure get involved in violent situations a lot.
And Revan proves just how well that turns out. That they forgot this lesson in the Clone Wars is part of what doomed them.
Yep.
Obviously they could fight, but this was not their primary function.
The dispute between Revan and Vrook et al was that Revan is saying "people are being slaughtered on the Rim, we have an obligation to help them," and the council saying "we're not the military, so no we aren't." There isn't a correct answer to that question, really.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
In all the Wars films, cartoons, comics and novels I've read the Jedi have never been roving magistrates. They're either ambassadors, political advisors, soldiers or spies.
They're honestly better off written as a marshal-type service, not unlike the Texas Rangers, where they absolutely DO NOT go in to negotiate peace, nor do they start a bunch of shit and lead battalions. They slip in, fuck people up in a very specific manner, and either arrest them or kill them if need be. The Force is used as guidance in making those decisions, and the Jedi should exist completely outside the Republic's authority.
Matter of fact, the authority of the Jedi should have been one of the central conflicts of the PT. Alas.
well right, because you know what most of the non-soldier/spy stuff is? Really fucking boring.
I know it's touched on in some of the earlier EU books that took place after the OT, though, while luke's trying to rebuild the order.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
It doesn't have to be. Ross' Jedi being Texas Rangers analogs would be fascinating to read. They can go in many directions with that premise.
Only started reading the EU with New Jedi Order. I did hear there was a Jedi noir story, Crescent Nights or something? That sounded interesting. I'd like to see more stories like that. Not everything has to be huge multi-book galaxy wide military missions. Nor does the EU need to revolve around the Solo/Skywalker families or Luke/Han/Leia.
You certainly can. In fact that's possibly the reason why the Order is so strange. It's a system designed to take children and teach them to control god-like powers that make them living weapons, and to in turn control them so that this phenomenal ability is not turned against the common man. The whole system is designed to create a personality capable of resisting the temptation to abuse that kind of power. That it works as well as it does for as long as it does is a small miracle. The fact that the Republic hasn't been overrun by Force wielding despots thousands of years ago is proof enough that the system at least partially works.
Ever read "Planetary"?
Superheros as archaeologists.
It's one of the best comics I've ever read.
Soldiers and spies are the easiest stories, but it's a criminal lack of imagination to have them be the only ones.
Why I fear the ocean.
I remember at least once in one of the KOTOR games I was just acting as a detective of sorts. Fighting still happened but that was more because of the game than any expectation of fighting be necessary.
In my wankery, the Jedi have the honored tradition of being a group of irregular marshals that have always served at the pleasure of the Republic, but never as political representatives. Their lengthy history of benevolence has allowed the Order to peacefully coexist with the Republic as an allied partner with shared interests, but never at their behest or control.
When Palpatine starts freaking out about the Jedi refusing his orders and outright working against him, he goes apey and frames them, giving him a believable reason to order their disbanding. Basically a re-engineered version of The Three Musketeers, with Ben Kenobi as Athos, Anakin as D'Artagnan, Tarkin as Rochefort, and Palpatine as Richelieu.
One of the best super-hero comics I've read. Authority was amazing when Ellis was writing, as well.
Quid:
I'd like to read a detective series about a Jedi similar to Eisenhorn Saga.
You need to get a talented fanfic writer to do something with that.
Was that the trial on Manaan? Also in the EU one of the first books written (the 2nd Timonthy Zahn one) has Luke sorting out a dispute in a bar because one of people having the dispute sees he is a jedi and both sides will trust a jedi's judgement. Also when that mad jedi clone trains Luke a bit his "training" is mostly taking Luke around and acting like a magistrate.