Eh, I don't really like playing 35 that much anymore to be honest.
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General NemoThe Mighty ShameChurch for DogsRegistered Userregular
I miss 50 point games. There are lots of newer players around here that can't muster 50 yet.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
edited March 2012
I honestly don't feel a lot of difference between 50 and 35 point games. An extra jack and a unit of infantry, maybe? A couple extra support pieces? It just doesn't seem like that much more.
Edit: prefaced with, I play Menoth, and I don't play any Hordes armies. I can understand Hordes armies feeling more complete at 50, just because their beasts tend to be expensive and needed.
I feel like 50 points opens you up to be able to take the things you want and things you need as opposed to just the things that you need.
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General NemoThe Mighty ShameChurch for DogsRegistered Userregular
Man that unit of Uhlans would be a sweet flanking tarpit, but holy shit I need these Winterguard to be the meat and potatoes, and motherfuck me if I'm going to play a single heavy.
It's just nice to have a little leeway at 50 points.
Yeah. You also have the potential for way, way more list and caster diversity at 50. Some casters just do not operate well at 35 compared to 50.
SJ on
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
At 35 you're a lot more fragile. If you lose even half a unit it's going to significantly affect the game. At 50 you can generally bring a few different answers to everything and sustain heavier losses before having to worry.
I don't play skorne, but eHexeris reads like an awesome caster. He's a viable spell assassin, and he gives skorne's cheap self-buffing ranged infantry a great set of buffs. I'd run something like this:
Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Archidon (7pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Venators Reivers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
* Venators Reiver Officer & Standard (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
My beast choice is suspect - I don't really have a sense of how skorne beasts work together, but I think that Nihilators and Venators are great choices for eHexeris. The agonizer is a great solo too.
So I am planning to try to use eFeora. I am looking at this list...
EFeora
-Redeemer (bonded)
-Vanquisher
-Reckoner
Full TFG + UA
Min Errants + UA
Min Choir
Covenant of Menoth
Any thoughts? I think it provides a huge number of fire vectors, and both strong ranged and melee.
You don't need to have everything deal fire damage in an eFeora list. In my experience, infantry burn out before you get to benefit from the effect on the feat turn. It's more about having it on multi-wound solos and beasts/jacks and then moving it to their caster when you pop.
The Covenant is pretty situational with her. Being able to hand out fire isn't all that necessary with the jacks you're running. I don't take it until I hit 50 points.
I'm not sold on the TFG with her either. Their damage output is very minimal and they die really easily unless they're shield walling up the field, which they usually won't be due to the speed her list allows. I would drop them for
The Redeemer is a pretty focus heavy jack to run without any support. I would drop the TFG and use some of the points to buy a vassal and Wracks.
From there you could use the remaining points to max out your errants and grab another solo (hierophant or a second vassal are good fits) or a unit like Daughters.
I'm gonna be trying this list once I get everything together
Points: 35/35
Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Basilisk Krea (4pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Venators Reivers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
* Venators Reiver Officer & Standard (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Yeah, this list is much better than mine. I can't believe that I forgot beast handlers. The anti-heavy potential of the gladiator + bronzeback is tremendous, and the bronzeback's animus is surprisingly useful. The Krea + Ashen Veil should give you plenty of resiliance against direct shooting too. I really like this.
Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Basilisk Krea (4pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Titan Cannoneer (9pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Venators Reivers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
* Venators Reiver Officer & Standard (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)
But Bronzeback + Gladiator probably gives that extra armor-cracking.
If you want to run Extoler + Raider, You should probably use a Flayer cannon instead of Reivers. The way the extoler interacts with Combined ranged attacks means that you wont be able to successfully CRA against stealth models - only the one with eyeless sight will be able to contribute to the attack.
kaorti on
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
So I am planning to try to use eFeora. I am looking at this list...
EFeora
-Redeemer (bonded)
-Vanquisher
-Reckoner
Full TFG + UA
Min Errants + UA
Min Choir
Covenant of Menoth
Any thoughts? I think it provides a huge number of fire vectors, and both strong ranged and melee.
It's not bad, but I think you could use a Vassal in there. Dropping the Covenant is probably the easiest way, although I admit I do like the no-knockdown/stationary ability. Another thing to consider is replacing the Reckoner with a Crusader and adding either Rhupert or a Reclaimer. You do lose out on the nice ranged attack, but of our casters eFeora really doesn't need the Reckoner for defense, and a Crusader that can charge 9" can catch a lot of people off guard. He works well at 35 points I find.
It might take some playing around, but I've found eFeora really only needs one infantry unit. She works well with jacks and support, and offers little to the troops, but they need to be there to hand out casual fire and block charges to the jacks and such behind. Dropping the TFG to max out the Errants and add some more support (-8, +3 for Errants, +2 for Vassal, +1 for Wracks, +2 for Rhupert or Errant Seneschal or Hierophant [or +3 for eEiryss for upkeeps]) is also quite viable.
Wasn't planning on it, was just going to do one of each. Have put together so far Hypnos and a Banshee.
Something that I've noticed is that the "base" shoulders on the Vyre jacks are actually smaller than the Shyeel ones. The extra shoulder on the left shoulder is actually a separate piece that fits on.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
This may be a shot in the dark, but does anyone happen to have the extra Reaper bits from the Cryx helljack kit they'd be willing to sell me? They've been sold out on ebay for a while and I really don't want to get the whole helljack kit just for those bits (since I can't see myself using Slayers all that often, and Corruptors even less).
This may be a shot in the dark, but does anyone happen to have the extra Reaper bits from the Cryx helljack kit they'd be willing to sell me? They've been sold out on ebay for a while and I really don't want to get the whole helljack kit just for those bits (since I can't see myself using Slayers all that often, and Corruptors even less).
Not trying to change your mind, but Combo Strike on Slayers is naaaasty. I watched a Cryx player a few weeks ago and realized I had played Cryx so wrong before I switched over to Legion.
But you, pig, are a lucky one. Tell us what we wish to know, and you may yet keep your bacon.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
I'm sure it is, but except for low points, I can't see myself fielding them that often. Maybe with the Coven occasionally, but neither pDenny nor eSkarre really needs them, and those are the only 3 casters I plan on buying. Plus, I plan on magnetizing the bits as much as I can, so I'll still have the basic Slayer from the boxed set.
I'm sure it is, but except for low points, I can't see myself fielding them that often. Maybe with the Coven occasionally, but neither pDenny nor eSkarre really needs them, and those are the only 3 casters I plan on buying. Plus, I plan on magnetizing the bits as much as I can, so I'll still have the basic Slayer from the boxed set.
I love Slayers. They (along with the even better Seethers/Nightmare/Deathjack for that delicious MAT 8) rank among the best warcaster killers out there. A couple of hits from an appropriately used Slayer will put paid to most 'casters, and with full focus they can make 6 attacks (count 'em). They're also really cheap and, as warjacks, reasonably resilient against most infantry firepower or attack spells.
I'm sure it is, but except for low points, I can't see myself fielding them that often. Maybe with the Coven occasionally, but neither pDenny nor eSkarre really needs them, and those are the only 3 casters I plan on buying. Plus, I plan on magnetizing the bits as much as I can, so I'll still have the basic Slayer from the boxed set.
You forgot Mortenebra. And her wonderful tier list.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Except Morty's not one of the casters I plan on buying and running, as I said in that quote. But yeah, in her tier list they're gold.
Except Morty's not one of the casters I plan on buying and running, as I said in that quote. But yeah, in her tier list they're gold.
Yes, yes. The point was your quote was clearly faulty. Morty rocks, damnit. And she's really nowhere near as hard to put together as people claim.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Meh. My Cryx is a side project. I have little desire to play or buy Morty. I like the Coven and eSkarre models the best of their casters, and pDenny comes in the boxed set. That's it. Most of my money is in my Menoth - I'll have enough to put together a few 35 point lists in Cryx of the models I want.
So, Lock & Load Event Signups are starting this Monday morning. Anyone here interested in the 3 Commander Team Tournament on Sunday? I'm having no luck finding 2 other Orboros players to put together 'Team Circle Jerks', sadly, but a 'Team Critical Failures' would be just as nice .
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
So, Lock & Load Event Signups are starting this Monday morning. Anyone here interested in the 3 Commander Team Tournament on Sunday? I'm having no luck finding 2 other Orboros players to put together 'Team Circle Jerks', sadly, but a 'Team Critical Failures' would be just as nice .
I play circle, and I'm going to Lock & Load, and am interested in the Team tournament. I'm pretty terrible at the game, but as a bonus I'm a nice guy, and I shower regularly.
Hm, so, I am really not having any fun with this game after playing 10-15 or so games of it so far. I've had progressively less fun with each time. I think I am just sick of how 'hard' counters are in this game. Oh, you have guns? I have stealth? Oh, you have stealth? I have eyeless sight! Dohohoho! I got in melee with your caster, yay! Oh, they have parry and get to walk out of combat for free. I have defense 19 in melee, if you have no answer in your list for that I win! Oh, you have an answer in your list for that I'm fucked. I mean, we've still been dicking around at 15 points so I'm sure that only exaggerates how swingy this game is but, it's not fun to me. I can see now that the game is basically about building the most incredibly broken list as possible and throwing it against the incredibly broken list of other people and that just doesn't seem very fun to me.
My friends seem to be having more fun with the game than me and are telling me that I should stick with it and that I'll have more fun at higher point values. But that just means that the game is going to take longer, and I'm afraid I'll just be pissing away money for no real gain.
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OtakuD00DCan I hit the exploding rocks?San DiegoRegistered Userregular
So what was the Skorne colossal rumored to be? I forget. Apparently not a Giant. Maybe one of the gigantic war beasts they came riding in during the Witchfire Trilogy? Doesn't seem like the Animantarax was quite that.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
A Mammoth, apparently. Though no one really knows what it will look like yet.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Hm, so, I am really not having any fun with this game after playing 10-15 or so games of it so far. I've had progressively less fun with each time. I think I am just sick of how 'hard' counters are in this game. Oh, you have guns? I have stealth? Oh, you have stealth? I have eyeless sight! Dohohoho! I got in melee with your caster, yay! Oh, they have parry and get to walk out of combat for free. I have defense 19 in melee, if you have no answer in your list for that I win! Oh, you have an answer in your list for that I'm fucked. I mean, we've still been dicking around at 15 points so I'm sure that only exaggerates how swingy this game is but, it's not fun to me. I can see now that the game is basically about building the most incredibly broken list as possible and throwing it against the incredibly broken list of other people and that just doesn't seem very fun to me.
My friends seem to be having more fun with the game than me and are telling me that I should stick with it and that I'll have more fun at higher point values. But that just means that the game is going to take longer, and I'm afraid I'll just be pissing away money for no real gain.
Well, it also depends how dickish your friends opponents are. But a lot of times lists built around a gimmick like that face a hard counter and die. At small points, building to a gimmick can work, or it can just fail, but you don't really have the options you would with a few more models on the table.
I'd disagree that it's about broken list vs broken list, but there is a lot of powerful stuff out there.
Hm, so, I am really not having any fun with this game after playing 10-15 or so games of it so far. I've had progressively less fun with each time. I think I am just sick of how 'hard' counters are in this game. Oh, you have guns? I have stealth? Oh, you have stealth? I have eyeless sight! Dohohoho! I got in melee with your caster, yay! Oh, they have parry and get to walk out of combat for free. I have defense 19 in melee, if you have no answer in your list for that I win! Oh, you have an answer in your list for that I'm fucked. I mean, we've still been dicking around at 15 points so I'm sure that only exaggerates how swingy this game is but, it's not fun to me. I can see now that the game is basically about building the most incredibly broken list as possible and throwing it against the incredibly broken list of other people and that just doesn't seem very fun to me.
My friends seem to be having more fun with the game than me and are telling me that I should stick with it and that I'll have more fun at higher point values. But that just means that the game is going to take longer, and I'm afraid I'll just be pissing away money for no real gain.
The game isn't balanced at 15 points. At that level you build a list around a gimmick and hope that your gimmick is better. Battlebox games, 15 point games and 25 point games should be used as training tools for people new to the game. They're good for teaching how the game turns flow, and how to use your models, but the lists cant possibly cover everything. Even at these point levels though, creative use of your models can bring victory, and good positioning can let you kill their caster even if you can't deal with their other units. If you can't hit someone, throw a jack on top of them, or slam one of your own models through them.
At 35 points you have just enough points to build a generally functional list and include contingencies against other common strategies. At 50 points you have even more leeway.
The first 20 games or so tend to have a high learning curve - learning your options and learning the enemy options takes time, and nasty surprises can easily turn into losses. If you and your friends are advanced enough to be putting together gimmicks like DEF 19 Kayazy you should probably be playing at a higher point level.
Higher point level games aren't appreciably longer than low point games. The real time sink for higher point games with new players is the time it can take to work out your order of activation. The game itself has the same pace - skirmishers hit on round 2, armies clash on round 3, mopping up on round 4 and 5.
Sometimes there are just bad match-ups. Tournaments are usually played with multiple lists for this reason. That said, the most popular jacks, units and casters are the ones with enough very few weaknesses. What faction do you play? We could provide some listbuilding advice.
I play circle, and I'm going to Lock & Load, and am interested in the Team tournament. I'm pretty terrible at the game, but as a bonus I'm a nice guy, and I shower regularly.
Yay ! If we get one more person, then Team Critical Failures can ride into the sunset! Any takers?
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Thanks for responses guys. It's just hard to tell with my limited experience if my issues with the game are endemic to the system or to the point value I am playing at.
Edit: I am playing khador, mostly against cryx so far.
Posts
Edit: prefaced with, I play Menoth, and I don't play any Hordes armies. I can understand Hordes armies feeling more complete at 50, just because their beasts tend to be expensive and needed.
It's just nice to have a little leeway at 50 points.
EFeora
-Redeemer (bonded)
-Vanquisher
-Reckoner
Full TFG + UA
Min Errants + UA
Min Choir
Covenant of Menoth
Any thoughts? I think it provides a huge number of fire vectors, and both strong ranged and melee.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Archidon (7pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Venators Reivers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
* Venators Reiver Officer & Standard (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
My beast choice is suspect - I don't really have a sense of how skorne beasts work together, but I think that Nihilators and Venators are great choices for eHexeris. The agonizer is a great solo too.
Points: 35/35
Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Basilisk Krea (4pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Venators Reivers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
* Venators Reiver Officer & Standard (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
You don't need to have everything deal fire damage in an eFeora list. In my experience, infantry burn out before you get to benefit from the effect on the feat turn. It's more about having it on multi-wound solos and beasts/jacks and then moving it to their caster when you pop.
The Covenant is pretty situational with her. Being able to hand out fire isn't all that necessary with the jacks you're running. I don't take it until I hit 50 points.
I'm not sold on the TFG with her either. Their damage output is very minimal and they die really easily unless they're shield walling up the field, which they usually won't be due to the speed her list allows. I would drop them for
The Redeemer is a pretty focus heavy jack to run without any support. I would drop the TFG and use some of the points to buy a vassal and Wracks.
From there you could use the remaining points to max out your errants and grab another solo (hierophant or a second vassal are good fits) or a unit like Daughters.
Heh. Is somewhat similar to my idea:
Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Basilisk Krea (4pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Titan Cannoneer (9pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Venators Reivers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
* Venators Reiver Officer & Standard (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)
But Bronzeback + Gladiator probably gives that extra armor-cracking.
Yeah, this list is much better than mine. I can't believe that I forgot beast handlers. The anti-heavy potential of the gladiator + bronzeback is tremendous, and the bronzeback's animus is surprisingly useful. The Krea + Ashen Veil should give you plenty of resiliance against direct shooting too. I really like this.
If you want to run Extoler + Raider, You should probably use a Flayer cannon instead of Reivers. The way the extoler interacts with Combined ranged attacks means that you wont be able to successfully CRA against stealth models - only the one with eyeless sight will be able to contribute to the attack.
It's not bad, but I think you could use a Vassal in there. Dropping the Covenant is probably the easiest way, although I admit I do like the no-knockdown/stationary ability. Another thing to consider is replacing the Reckoner with a Crusader and adding either Rhupert or a Reclaimer. You do lose out on the nice ranged attack, but of our casters eFeora really doesn't need the Reckoner for defense, and a Crusader that can charge 9" can catch a lot of people off guard. He works well at 35 points I find.
It might take some playing around, but I've found eFeora really only needs one infantry unit. She works well with jacks and support, and offers little to the troops, but they need to be there to hand out casual fire and block charges to the jacks and such behind. Dropping the TFG to max out the Errants and add some more support (-8, +3 for Errants, +2 for Vassal, +1 for Wracks, +2 for Rhupert or Errant Seneschal or Hierophant [or +3 for eEiryss for upkeeps]) is also quite viable.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Are any of those getting magnetized?
And how!
Wasn't planning on it, was just going to do one of each. Have put together so far Hypnos and a Banshee.
Something that I've noticed is that the "base" shoulders on the Vyre jacks are actually smaller than the Shyeel ones. The extra shoulder on the left shoulder is actually a separate piece that fits on.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Nemlock for online gaming
I love Slayers. They (along with the even better Seethers/Nightmare/Deathjack for that delicious MAT 8) rank among the best warcaster killers out there. A couple of hits from an appropriately used Slayer will put paid to most 'casters, and with full focus they can make 6 attacks (count 'em). They're also really cheap and, as warjacks, reasonably resilient against most infantry firepower or attack spells.
You forgot Mortenebra. And her wonderful tier list.
Yes, yes. The point was your quote was clearly faulty. Morty rocks, damnit. And she's really nowhere near as hard to put together as people claim.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
It looks a lot less rampagey than the art work. Also $10 more expensive.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
I play circle, and I'm going to Lock & Load, and am interested in the Team tournament. I'm pretty terrible at the game, but as a bonus I'm a nice guy, and I shower regularly.
My friends seem to be having more fun with the game than me and are telling me that I should stick with it and that I'll have more fun at higher point values. But that just means that the game is going to take longer, and I'm afraid I'll just be pissing away money for no real gain.
Well, it also depends how dickish your friends opponents are. But a lot of times lists built around a gimmick like that face a hard counter and die. At small points, building to a gimmick can work, or it can just fail, but you don't really have the options you would with a few more models on the table.
I'd disagree that it's about broken list vs broken list, but there is a lot of powerful stuff out there.
The game isn't balanced at 15 points. At that level you build a list around a gimmick and hope that your gimmick is better. Battlebox games, 15 point games and 25 point games should be used as training tools for people new to the game. They're good for teaching how the game turns flow, and how to use your models, but the lists cant possibly cover everything. Even at these point levels though, creative use of your models can bring victory, and good positioning can let you kill their caster even if you can't deal with their other units. If you can't hit someone, throw a jack on top of them, or slam one of your own models through them.
At 35 points you have just enough points to build a generally functional list and include contingencies against other common strategies. At 50 points you have even more leeway.
The first 20 games or so tend to have a high learning curve - learning your options and learning the enemy options takes time, and nasty surprises can easily turn into losses. If you and your friends are advanced enough to be putting together gimmicks like DEF 19 Kayazy you should probably be playing at a higher point level.
Higher point level games aren't appreciably longer than low point games. The real time sink for higher point games with new players is the time it can take to work out your order of activation. The game itself has the same pace - skirmishers hit on round 2, armies clash on round 3, mopping up on round 4 and 5.
Sometimes there are just bad match-ups. Tournaments are usually played with multiple lists for this reason. That said, the most popular jacks, units and casters are the ones with enough very few weaknesses. What faction do you play? We could provide some listbuilding advice.
Yay
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Edit: I am playing khador, mostly against cryx so far.