I'm so glad DS9 lets Worf be the badass Klingon that TNG wouldn't.
"I yield. I cannot defeat him. All I can do is kill him."
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
The best thing is that even the other badass Klingon in the room was all (spoilers for the ep in question (season 5, episode 15):
"Take a dive, Worf! I'll throw in the towel! You'll be a legend just fer goin' nine rounds with the Jem'Hadar! Songs! Whole frickin' Klingon operas about you eatin' thunder and crappin' lightning!"
And he's all, "...yeah, but I'd still be a quitter. Fuck that noise."
Exactly. If you watch closely, you begin to notice Dukat is defined in large part by his ego. His desire for acknowledgement and praise.
He's not sad about the occupation, he just wants recognition for only being half-Hitler.
He's the kind of guy who regrets getting caught, not doing wrong.
He doesn't even regret getting caught. He's upset that he's not getting praised for it because people do not realize there are a lot worse things than what he's done and that things could have been a lot worse if he hadn't done wrong.
Good point. He's a guy who got caught for armed robbery and wants recognition because "Hey, I could have just murdered the people and then robbed them. And I would have had an easier time getting away with it then too. You owe me a debt of gratitude!"
He legitimately thought he was being benevolent to the Bajorans by not being Gul Darheel or glassing Bajoran cities in retribution for terrorist attacks.
He honestly believes that killing 500 random bajorans when 500 cardassians died in a terrorist attack was the morally correct thing to do. Dukat has always believed this, through the whole series. The fact that there are good aspects to his personality, and even honor to an extent in other areas, does not erase this. Dukat is and has always been a monster in DS9. Christ he spent the whole series trying to get Sisko or Kira to show him approval for what he'd done, and not in a "I'm so guilty and im haunted by what I did and need reassurance" way, in a "See look how magnanimous I was, are you blind?!" way
I think the most uncomfortable thing about Dukat as a character is that he is likable in much of the series. He is competent, good at his job, pleasant to those he works with and fair to his subordinates. He is a family man who cares about his children very deeply. If a man like him was your neighbor, he would likely be the best neighbor you ever had.
And that describes many real life war criminals from the last century.
That's not a very satisfying ending at all. Dukat should have gone evil if he wanted to go evil. Sisko most definitely was partially to blame for what he ultimately became on that planet. If he had kept his damn mouth shut, or chose his words better, Dukat might not have gone from really crazy, to full on omnicidal crazy.
I'm sorry, I guess I can't really get too worked up over the fact that Sisko just nodded and agreed with the crazy man. He thought that rescue might be coming at any moment, so he was trying to buy as much time as he could. When the crazy man with the gun who has demonstrated that he wouldn't mind harming/killing you, you just play along and say what you think he wants to hear.
The only time I had to rewind to see, yes, Sisko really did that, was dealing with Eddington. I'm not that sympathetic to the Marquis in the first place, but damn... Sisko can really hold a grudge.
The best thing is that even the other badass Klingon in the room was all (spoilers for the ep in question (season 5, episode 15):
"Take a dive, Worf! I'll throw in the towel! You'll be a legend just fer goin' nine rounds with the Jem'Hadar! Songs! Whole frickin' Klingon operas about you eatin' thunder and crappin' lightning!"
And he's all, "...yeah, but I'd still be a quitter. Fuck that noise."
Yeah, by the end of DS9 it turns out that, due to being raised away from the corrupting influence of the increasingly self-centred Klingon Empire, Worf, raised by humans and variably shunned and hated by "normal" Klingons, is the onlyreal Klingon left when measured against what the sagas say Klingons should be.
Especially when he kills
Gowron for being a coward and an incompetent and then hands the throne over to his head of house; he was being more honourable and righteous than everyone else in that room put together and I'm pretty sure they all knew it too, since they would all have kept the throne, not that any of them would have challenged Gowron in the first place since he represented stable access to personal power. You can even see it in Martok's eye: "Well fuck, now I have to live up to this level and I have no idea how he manages to walk without tripping over his own balls, never mind the rest…"
I think Martok would have no problem living up to the Klingon ideal. It's just that normally the political situation forces him to compromise. Being chancellor would hopefully give him a chance to say "Yo Duras you're an honourable dude and Imma let you finish but collaborating with Romulans is the p'taq-est thing of all time! Of all time!" Worf never had to compromise because of the Federation's tolerance of other cultures, so until he started getting involved with Klingons compromising wasn't a thing he had to worry about.
That's not a very satisfying ending at all. Dukat should have gone evil if he wanted to go evil. Sisko most definitely was partially to blame for what he ultimately became on that planet. If he had kept his damn mouth shut, or chose his words better, Dukat might not have gone from really crazy, to full on omnicidal crazy.
I'm sorry, I guess I can't really get too worked up over the fact that Sisko just nodded and agreed with the crazy man. He thought that rescue might be coming at any moment, so he was trying to buy as much time as he could. When the crazy man with the gun who has demonstrated that he wouldn't mind harming/killing you, you just play along and say what you think he wants to hear.
The only time I had to rewind to see, yes, Sisko really did that, was dealing with Eddington. I'm not that sympathetic to the Marquis in the first place, but damn... Sisko can really hold a grudge.
The way they dealt with the Maquis in Star Trek has always been a bit problematic to me.
I think Martok would have no problem living up to the Klingon ideal. It's just that normally the political situation forces him to compromise. Being chancellor would hopefully give him a chance to say "Yo Duras you're an honourable dude and Imma let you finish but collaborating with Romulans is the p'taq-est thing of all time! Of all time!" Worf never had to compromise because of the Federation's tolerance of other cultures, so until he started getting involved with Klingons compromising wasn't a thing he had to worry about.
Margok was a cut above most, but it wasn't just politics keeping him from living up to the ideal Worf believed in, he really seemed to like killing stuff and believed in authority for the sake of authority. He attacked allies in moments of weakness. Even as Gowron threw the empire to the dogs just to make Martok look bad, he refused to stand up for what's right because Gowron was Chancellor, he had the authority. But more damningly, he glorified in the unburied death of genocide, after a battle he didn't even get to fight, which was bad enough to give the Romulan general a moment of genuine, "Seriously, dude, what the fuck?" And that's not to mention what the Klingon code of honor says about anyone who is captured by the enemy.
The fact that even he thought honor was dead, though, pretty telling.
I think Martok would have no problem living up to the Klingon ideal. It's just that normally the political situation forces him to compromise. Being chancellor would hopefully give him a chance to say "Yo Duras you're an honourable dude and Imma let you finish but collaborating with Romulans is the p'taq-est thing of all time! Of all time!" Worf never had to compromise because of the Federation's tolerance of other cultures, so until he started getting involved with Klingons compromising wasn't a thing he had to worry about.
Margok was a cut above most, but it wasn't just politics keeping him from living up to the ideal Worf believed in, he really seemed to like killing stuff. He attacked allies in moments of weakness, but more damningly, he glorified in the unburied death of genocide, after a battle he didn't even get to fight, which was bad enough to give the Romulan general a moment of genuine, "Seriously, dude, what the fuck?" Not to mention what the Klingon code of honor says about anyone who is captured by the enemy.
The fact that even he thought honor was dead, though, pretty telling.
Hmm, Picard!Worf* should have given him a little speech about fighting for fighting's sake.
*From that series one TNG episode where Worf meets other Klingons and gets to give the big speech instead of Picard.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
I think Martok would have no problem living up to the Klingon ideal. It's just that normally the political situation forces him to compromise. Being chancellor would hopefully give him a chance to say "Yo Duras you're an honourable dude and Imma let you finish but collaborating with Romulans is the p'taq-est thing of all time! Of all time!" Worf never had to compromise because of the Federation's tolerance of other cultures, so until he started getting involved with Klingons compromising wasn't a thing he had to worry about.
Margok was a cut above most, but it wasn't just politics keeping him from living up to the ideal Worf believed in, he really seemed to like killing stuff and believed in authority for the sake of authority. He attacked allies in moments of weakness. Even as Gowron threw the empire to the dogs just to make Martok look bad, he refused to stand up for what's right because Gowron was Chancellor, he had the authority. But more damningly, he glorified in the unburied death of genocide, after a battle he didn't even get to fight, which was bad enough to give the Romulan general a moment of genuine, "Seriously, dude, what the fuck?" And that's not to mention what the Klingon code of honor says about anyone who is captured by the enemy.
The fact that even he thought honor was dead, though, pretty telling.
Pretty much this; Martok's was an honourable enough dude most of the time, which still puts him ahead of most of the rest of the High Council, but that just means he was honourable enough to see the shining beacon that was Worf taking down Gowron then giving up power because he knew he couldnt work the system well enough for the people and say to himself "one day I want to be that guy."
The way they dealt with the Maquis in Star Trek has always been a bit problematic to me.
Because I'm 100% a Maquis sympathizer.
I guess I should clarify. I'm sympathetic to their plight. It sucks being told that you've got to pack up and abandon your home, and I can see how that would make you want to lash out. However, you lose pretty much all sympathy from me once you start running around and blowing up civilian transports.
And the worst thing is, Sisko was right when he was talking with Eddington. Eddington was selling them a dream that just wouldn't happen. There was no way they were going to push the Cardiassians out.
The way they dealt with the Maquis in Star Trek has always been a bit problematic to me.
Because I'm 100% a Maquis sympathizer.
I guess I should clarify. I'm sympathetic to their plight. It sucks being told that you've got to pack up and abandon your home, and I can see how that would make you want to lash out. However, you lose pretty much all sympathy from me once you start running around and blowing up civilian transports.
And the worst thing is, Sisko was right when he was talking with Eddington. Eddington was selling them a dream that just wouldn't happen. There was no way they were going to push the Cardiassians out.
Weren't the Cardassians using those Civilian transports to smuggle weapons to their colonists? I remember it not being quite so simple.
The way they dealt with the Maquis in Star Trek has always been a bit problematic to me.
Because I'm 100% a Maquis sympathizer.
I guess I should clarify. I'm sympathetic to their plight. It sucks being told that you've got to pack up and abandon your home, and I can see how that would make you want to lash out. However, you lose pretty much all sympathy from me once you start running around and blowing up civilian transports.
And the worst thing is, Sisko was right when he was talking with Eddington. Eddington was selling them a dream that just wouldn't happen. There was no way they were going to push the Cardiassians out.
Weren't the Cardassians using those Civilian transports to smuggle weapons to their colonists? I remember it not being quite so simple.
I kinda remember that too, but I also thought they were attacking civilians at one point and that's why Sisko flipped his shit. I guess I need to go look it up.
The way they dealt with the Maquis in Star Trek has always been a bit problematic to me.
Because I'm 100% a Maquis sympathizer.
I guess I should clarify. I'm sympathetic to their plight. It sucks being told that you've got to pack up and abandon your home, and I can see how that would make you want to lash out. However, you lose pretty much all sympathy from me once you start running around and blowing up civilian transports.
And the worst thing is, Sisko was right when he was talking with Eddington. Eddington was selling them a dream that just wouldn't happen. There was no way they were going to push the Cardiassians out.
Weren't the Cardassians using those Civilian transports to smuggle weapons to their colonists? I remember it not being quite so simple.
I kinda remember that too, but I also thought they were attacking civilians at one point and that's why Sisko flipped his shit. I guess I need to go look it up.
All it takes is some bad intel about which ships are smuggling weapons and... Ooops
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
The civilian transports may have had weapons, but they also had civilians. Using "Human shields" may well be dirty pool, but that doesn't make killing them right.
As for the chemical weapon use on maquis colonies, wasn't that exactly what the maquis were doing/going to do to a bunch of Cardassian colonies? And without warning too; the only reason those killed any maquis was because Eddington called a bluff that turned out not to be anything of the sort.
valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
I watched the DS9 episode yesterday where Sisko built the solar ship, and he and Jake sailed away:
To Cardassia. What bothered me was once they did, Dukat just shows up with a proclamation that "Guess what? We just found an ancient crash site where Bajorans made it all the way to Cardassia. Hoorah!" And then they shot off fireworks? Seriously? I don't see what incentive they would have to admit to anything. I guess when evil Cardassians are more willing to acknowledge truth than real life politicains, things really are messed up.
They were considering covering it up, but then Sisko happened to arrive and thus proved the voyage was possible, so concealing it would have been to cumbersome after that.
They were considering covering it up, but then Sisko happened to arrive and thus proved the voyage was possible, so concealing it would have been to cumbersome after that.
As I recall:
They had been covering it up for a while. There was on-going debates, with the Bajorans saying "our ancient ships could totally fly to Cardassia and our ancient texts say we do" and the Cardassians saying "nothing but ancient superstitions, no one's ever done this trip without warp drive, and anyway there's no evidence whatsoever of ancient Bajorans coming to Cardassia ignore this curtain right over there please." When The Sisko made the trip to Cardassia in one of those Bajoran ships, accidentally no less, it blew a huge hole in the Cardassian line. So they decided to save face by going along with it and pretending they had just discovered the evidence they kept saying didn't exist.
So in that respect, it's more like a Republican politician repeatedly saying "I never had gay sex in a truck stop bathroom at 3am" despite a growing crowd of truckers who say he did, then unexpectedly a video goes public showing him having gay sex with a truck stop sign visible in the background and a clock on the wall above the urinal marking 3am, and he goes "oh yeah now that you mention it, it had totally slipped my mind, my bad."
I am going to Paris in 2 weeks. Normally, this would not have anything to do with Star Trek. But, on my way there, I'll be stopped in Calgary (well, technically Cochrane). And this is happening. And I have been purchased tickets for this.
I am going to Paris in 2 weeks. Normally, this would not have anything to do with Star Trek. But, on my way there, I'll be stopped in Calgary (well, technically Cochrane). And this is happening. And I have been purchased tickets for this.
WHAT IS HAPPENING
You being a lucky son of a bitch is what is happening.
I always liked those scenes where Worf was moping about something (Jadzia or Alexander usually) to Martok and he would get that look on his face. As if to say, "Emo Klingon is worst Klingon."
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
I am going to Paris in 2 weeks. Normally, this would not have anything to do with Star Trek. But, on my way there, I'll be stopped in Calgary (well, technically Cochrane). And this is happening. And I have been purchased tickets for this.
yeah that makes me wish I was in Canada as I so want to go that, but living in the UK means I'll just have to go an event called Destination London startrek.com/article/five-captains-at-destination-star-trek-london
All five Captains in one place! plus they're are hoping to get another 20 odd guests.
And in May there is a convention with all the Voyager cast (except Janeway) in the UK and I'll be meeting Worf and Riker in June so its not a total shame being unable to get to Canada at short notice!
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PolarisI am powerless against the sky.Registered Userregular
The thing about Dukat is that he didn't "become full evil" during Waltz, he already was. This is the guy who brutally suppressed and murdered Bajorans for years, and all in the name of his political career. When he says things like "It would have been much worse without me", he is *lying*. Dukat is a great character, wonderfully played because he emotes the confusion that 'evil' generates in the 'good' by placing ambiguity into his actions. The mistake (if you want to call it that), is that the writers always portrayed him in shades of grey, they never actually showed the evil actions he did during the occupation, they just implied them. Of course, if they'd had an episode where Kira listed his crimes he would lie and you'd be left wondering who to believe. In fact, I'm sure that happened more than once.
The fact that we're still talking about it, and there's no real right answer, is a testament to Marc Alaimo and the writing team. Who do you believe ? Kira or Dukat ? Democrats or Republicans ? At the end of the day it's who you *want* to believe, i.e. it's a brilliant reflection of real life. Bravo.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
The best thing is that even the other badass Klingon in the room was all (spoilers for the ep in question (season 5, episode 15):
"Take a dive, Worf! I'll throw in the towel! You'll be a legend just fer goin' nine rounds with the Jem'Hadar! Songs! Whole frickin' Klingon operas about you eatin' thunder and crappin' lightning!"
And he's all, "...yeah, but I'd still be a quitter. Fuck that noise."
Yeah, by the end of DS9 it turns out that, due to being raised away from the corrupting influence of the increasingly self-centred Klingon Empire, Worf, raised by humans and variably shunned and hated by "normal" Klingons, is the onlyreal Klingon left when measured against what the sagas say Klingons should be.
Especially when he kills
Gowron for being a coward and an incompetent and then hands the throne over to his head of house; he was being more honourable and righteous than everyone else in that room put together and I'm pretty sure they all knew it too, since they would all have kept the throne, not that any of them would have challenged Gowron in the first place since he represented stable access to personal power. You can even see it in Martok's eye: "Well fuck, now I have to live up to this level and I have no idea how he manages to walk without tripping over his own balls, never mind the rest…"
It always amused me that Worf was basically the equivalent of an Klingon otaku.
You know, absolutely obsessed with his subject of interest, has no social skills, is a complete shut in (He had his quarters on the Defiant for a long time.), tends to Worf Effect off of anything pertinent, etc, etc.
I know it wasn't the intention back then, but they really nailed a fairly subtle and hilarious stereotype.
And on the Dukat thing, from watching the series from start to "Waltz", I don't recall them out and out giving too many statements, if any, implying that he was "full evil" until that episode. He was definitely pretty far into the dark side of the alignment scale, though.
Reading up on Waltz, it was intended to push him way into the dark side of the alignment scale past where he was before. Even the guy who played him kind of had a "What the hell?" moment, apparently, when he saw the script.
Most of the time, when he was pushed on what he did during the occupation he'd turn into an asshole about it, or would say something like "You should be glad you had me, and not Gul Super-Genocide". Which is a fair point if you follow the Cardassians through the two series they show up in. TNG and DS9 showed that the Cardassian concept of justice is anything but.
An eye for an eye (And they pointed out many times, that it wasn't just military personnel that were getting blown up, it was civilians too.) is pretty saintly by the incredibly fucked up legal standards of the Cardassians. Doesn't excuse it, but DS9 made a big point of pointing out that there were no "heroes" as accepted by traditional media when it comes to rebellions and oppressors.
The Bajoran resistance was actively targeting civilians from Cardassia in order to demoralize the enemy, which is a really bad thing to do for just about any militarized force, and tends to lead to very harsh reprisals in real life. Never mind in fiction. Kira even out and out says that the civilians were "acceptable targets" and that she had little to no regrets about killing them in one episode when pushed on it. I can't imagine that the Cardassians wouldn't go full on "scorched earth" under normal circumstances the first time they blew up an orbital drydock and killed 500 civilians and military personnel if someone wasn't holding them back.
And if the other Gul's we heard about and saw during the occupation were any standard (See, "Duet" for a particularly horrifying example of one. Can't spoil more then that without spoiling the episode, though.), Dukat was probably being honest on that point when he said that he was essentially slacking off on his daily "slaughter Bajorans" quota. Though it was at least in part to gratify his own ego.
He made no bones about wanting to reconquer Bajor though, prior to "Waltz". It at least appears from how he acted that he had left that behind starting around when he went all space pirate/rebel hero to fight the Klingons. Then he became the Supreme Warlord/Legate/Whatever of a Dominion backed Cardassia. At which point he went batshit crazy with ambition. Then he just went batshit crazy.
On the Maquis thing, if Sisko hadn't basically gone all one man army on the Maquis to get Eddington, they most likely would have won fairly early on in the conflict. Remember that the Maquis had pretty much succeeded in getting the tools needed to force out the Cardassians at least once, prior to Sisko rampaging through the sector and ruining everything.
I read somewhere (Was a long time ago.) that the writers wanted to actually have the Dominion win the war via ganking Earth and forcing a formal surrender from the head of the Federation.
The idea apparently was that Deep Space 9 would have been a staging point to retake Earth and bring the Federation back. Most of the ships and that giant Federation fleet seen in a certain episode would have said "Yeah, no, fuck that.". Apparently that this was shot down by higher ups and B&B as being too "dramatic". This actually fits with a few off-hand lines about Earth being unprotected in a few episodes, and it looks, after watching the episodes, that they left a way for it to happen in too. So I can believe it.
If it's true, that makes the whole Maquis storyline make much more sense in retrospect. There's no denying that Sisko went way off the deep end during that arc. His claims that Eddington was selling them on a lost cause were only justifiable if you don't take into account the actions that he and Starfleet took to try and kneecap the Maquis from achieving their objectives.
If that had happened then Sisko would have had a healthy dose of karma headed his way after some of the horrible shit he did to the Maquis in his pursuit of Eddington. And he probably would have been faced with the same choices. Which would have made for an interesting storyline.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Sounds like Archonex is a 24th Century college freshman.
I'll admit that the combination kind hurts my head if I think about it too hard. But they both sides had their points. It's just that Ducat wants praise and thanks from the Bajorans for only being a half Hitler. The Marqui were, "Just get out of our way and we'll retake our home." Granted, the Federation really couldn't do that without getting blamed for not controlling their citizens, but one of these things is not like the other.
The problem with the Maquis, like with most things in Star Trek, is that it doesn't make sense in a post-scarcity inter-stellar society.
Sure, they lose their homes, and that sucks. But the Federation can give them new homes on new planets,, for free. Giving up their homes allows an end to a painful war, while keeping their homes continues the war and puts them right on the front lines. So... what do they gain by fighting for their homes, exactly?
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
The problem with the Maquis, like with most things in Star Trek, is that it doesn't make sense in a post-scarcity inter-stellar society.
Sure, they lose their homes, and that sucks. But the Federation can give them new homes on new planets,, for free. Giving up their homes allows an end to a painful war, while keeping their homes continues the war and puts them right on the front lines. So... what do they gain by fighting for their homes, exactly?
To stay in their homes.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
The problem with the Maquis, like with most things in Star Trek, is that it doesn't make sense in a post-scarcity inter-stellar society.
Sure, they lose their homes, and that sucks. But the Federation can give them new homes on new planets,, for free. Giving up their homes allows an end to a painful war, while keeping their homes continues the war and puts them right on the front lines. So... what do they gain by fighting for their homes, exactly?
Except they made a big point that they had worked to build their homes. This wasn't the core of the Federation space, where everything was utopian. There were scarcities, and more importantly limits brought on by it being the frontier. Hence why the Maquis didn't just immediately turn around and start mass replicating WMD's to scare both sides off of their land. They had to go out and steal them from the more prosperous areas of space first.
Imagine if someone from the government came up to you one day and said to you "Hey, we're giving the land your house is on to Russia. I know we didn't ask you and you worked your ass off to build this place up to being livable, but we don't care. We'll compensate you for it once you're off-world.".
Would you be very happy with that?
Really, the bigger issue with the plot-hole is that doing something like that doesn't really make sense from the Federation's point of view. Unless the diplomat that signed the treaty that lead to that was a Cardassian spy in disguise, I can't see how the Federation thought it'd end well to basically try to throw out billions of people from a sector of space. Nor does it particularly fit with their MO.
It's kind of a trademark of DS9 that everything isn't so black and white as it was in earlier series. It's not so much me being an apologist as the show tending to show things in much deeper levels of complexity other then "cackling space god who detonates red shirt's heads for fun".
Kira was at one point a full blown, unapologetic terrorist (That wouldn't fly post 9/11, i'm sure.) who has no problem tapping into her old job when it comes down to it. Sisko is a model of a Starfleet officer---Who'd gladly burn half the galaxy down in revenge if you pissed him off enough. Odo's people want order but are willing to get it through sacrificing freedom. Also, the Founders are incredibly racist. Bashir is an awesome doctor but didn't exactly get that through his own inherent capabilities, something that bothers him to no end. The Federation actually does have and probably needs a covert intelligence agency. Etc, etc.
DS9 took the "perfect future", and added flaws to it that would logically come about as a result of such a place. Which I can like and respect, even if it shits all over the original concept of the show.
The problem with the Maquis, like with most things in Star Trek, is that it doesn't make sense in a post-scarcity inter-stellar society.
Sure, they lose their homes, and that sucks. But the Federation can give them new homes on new planets,, for free. Giving up their homes allows an end to a painful war, while keeping their homes continues the war and puts them right on the front lines. So... what do they gain by fighting for their homes, exactly?
To stay in their homes.
They can take our lives, but they can never take our... homes!
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
The problem with the Maquis, like with most things in Star Trek, is that it doesn't make sense in a post-scarcity inter-stellar society.
Sure, they lose their homes, and that sucks. But the Federation can give them new homes on new planets,, for free. Giving up their homes allows an end to a painful war, while keeping their homes continues the war and puts them right on the front lines. So... what do they gain by fighting for their homes, exactly?
Honor and Glory!
Actually, despite not being Klingons it does kind of make sense that they would fight to defend what they had built simply because they had built it. Federation humans are not actually HUMAN, at their heart, because they live in a post-scarcity paradise and their drive to do...anything at all roister in pleasures of the flesh is because of some sort of improbable new social imperative to strive for personal excellence that overrides human nature. The colonists settled those worlds because they wanted to be the best little colonists they could be, bringing life from lifelessness and building a paradise world from the crude matter of whatever was there before the colony was started.
It is reasonable that such a post-human eudemoniac would seek to protect its creation as parent might protect their child or an artist might protect his work.
But I'm probably thinking too hard about philosophical improbabilities.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
The problem with the Maquis, like with most things in Star Trek, is that it doesn't make sense in a post-scarcity inter-stellar society.
Sure, they lose their homes, and that sucks. But the Federation can give them new homes on new planets,, for free. Giving up their homes allows an end to a painful war, while keeping their homes continues the war and puts them right on the front lines. So... what do they gain by fighting for their homes, exactly?
To stay in their homes.
They can take our lives, but they can never take our... homes!
Yeah, doesn't have the same punch.
It's the same principle, the freedom to live their lives how/where they want.
Don't get me wrong, I'd have gone all Sisko on their asses, but the Maquis believed they were fighting for their way of life which doesn't have much to do with scarcity and has more to do with the human desire to tell people to fuck off.
The problem with the Maquis, like with most things in Star Trek, is that it doesn't make sense in a post-scarcity inter-stellar society.
Sure, they lose their homes, and that sucks. But the Federation can give them new homes on new planets,, for free. Giving up their homes allows an end to a painful war, while keeping their homes continues the war and puts them right on the front lines. So... what do they gain by fighting for their homes, exactly?
Except they made a big point that they had worked to build their homes. This wasn't the core of the Federation space, where everything was utopian. There were scarcities, and limits brought on by it being the frontier. Hence why the Maquis didn't just immediately turn around and start mass replicating WMD's to scare both sides off of their land.
Imagine if someone from the government came up to you one day and said to you "Hey, we're giving the land your house is on to Russia. I know we didn't ask you, but we don't care. We'll compensate you for it once you're off-world.".
Would you be very happy with that?
Really, the bigger issue with the plot-hole is that doing something like that doesn't really make sense from the Federation's point of view. Unless the diplomat that signed the treaty that lead to that was a Cardassian spy in disguise, I can't see how the Federation thought it'd end well to basically throw out billions of people from a sector of space. Nor does it particularly fit with their MO.
Would I be happy about it? No.
Would I do it anyway since the alternative is having myself, my friends and family, and thousands of people die in a violent war, and spending the rest of my days worrying that the Russians are going to attack my home? Yes.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
The problem with the Maquis, like with most things in Star Trek, is that it doesn't make sense in a post-scarcity inter-stellar society.
Sure, they lose their homes, and that sucks. But the Federation can give them new homes on new planets,, for free. Giving up their homes allows an end to a painful war, while keeping their homes continues the war and puts them right on the front lines. So... what do they gain by fighting for their homes, exactly?
Except they made a big point that they had worked to build their homes. This wasn't the core of the Federation space, where everything was utopian. There were scarcities, and limits brought on by it being the frontier. Hence why the Maquis didn't just immediately turn around and start mass replicating WMD's to scare both sides off of their land.
Imagine if someone from the government came up to you one day and said to you "Hey, we're giving the land your house is on to Russia. I know we didn't ask you, but we don't care. We'll compensate you for it once you're off-world.".
Would you be very happy with that?
Really, the bigger issue with the plot-hole is that doing something like that doesn't really make sense from the Federation's point of view. Unless the diplomat that signed the treaty that lead to that was a Cardassian spy in disguise, I can't see how the Federation thought it'd end well to basically throw out billions of people from a sector of space. Nor does it particularly fit with their MO.
Would I be happy about it? No.
Would I do it anyway since the alternative is having myself, my friends and family, and thousands of people die in a violent war, and spending the rest of my days worrying that the Russians are going to attack my home? Yes.
Except they pointed out that at that point they already were attacking prior to the evacuations. By the time we see a first hand perspective on the situation they're already implying that Cardassia is pushing for genocidal programs on the civilians and had been for some time.
That sort of behavior from the guys who are getting the land doesn't exactly engender the people living there to make a good will sacrifice on their part. Even if it isn't rational.
Also, don't forget that the writers made it a plot point that multiple Starfleet officers had the back of the Maquis, either in secret or out in the open. Assuming the proto-Maquis/Maquis were assuming they'd get unofficial support (And it appears they did.), that makes their odds from their perspective look much better.
Eddington hijacking a bunch of high end replicators that could mass produce weaponry and ships on a large scale when he defected probably helped keep them going quite a bit too. It's an off-hand line, but I believe it's Kira who flips out that the industrial replicators were going to Cardassia, since they could be used to mass produce WMD's or high end weaponry.
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"I yield. I cannot defeat him. All I can do is kill him."
And he's all, "...yeah, but I'd still be a quitter. Fuck that noise."
He legitimately thought he was being benevolent to the Bajorans by not being Gul Darheel or glassing Bajoran cities in retribution for terrorist attacks.
He honestly believes that killing 500 random bajorans when 500 cardassians died in a terrorist attack was the morally correct thing to do. Dukat has always believed this, through the whole series. The fact that there are good aspects to his personality, and even honor to an extent in other areas, does not erase this. Dukat is and has always been a monster in DS9. Christ he spent the whole series trying to get Sisko or Kira to show him approval for what he'd done, and not in a "I'm so guilty and im haunted by what I did and need reassurance" way, in a "See look how magnanimous I was, are you blind?!" way
I think the most uncomfortable thing about Dukat as a character is that he is likable in much of the series. He is competent, good at his job, pleasant to those he works with and fair to his subordinates. He is a family man who cares about his children very deeply. If a man like him was your neighbor, he would likely be the best neighbor you ever had.
And that describes many real life war criminals from the last century.
I'm sorry, I guess I can't really get too worked up over the fact that Sisko just nodded and agreed with the crazy man. He thought that rescue might be coming at any moment, so he was trying to buy as much time as he could. When the crazy man with the gun who has demonstrated that he wouldn't mind harming/killing you, you just play along and say what you think he wants to hear.
The only time I had to rewind to see, yes, Sisko really did that, was dealing with Eddington. I'm not that sympathetic to the Marquis in the first place, but damn... Sisko can really hold a grudge.
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Which is why you keep him talking so you can find an opening to brain him with a pipe.
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You mean the pipe that he has just brained you with? :P
Yeah, by the end of DS9 it turns out that, due to being raised away from the corrupting influence of the increasingly self-centred Klingon Empire, Worf, raised by humans and variably shunned and hated by "normal" Klingons, is the only real Klingon left when measured against what the sagas say Klingons should be.
Especially when he kills
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The way they dealt with the Maquis in Star Trek has always been a bit problematic to me.
Because I'm 100% a Maquis sympathizer.
Margok was a cut above most, but it wasn't just politics keeping him from living up to the ideal Worf believed in, he really seemed to like killing stuff and believed in authority for the sake of authority. He attacked allies in moments of weakness. Even as Gowron threw the empire to the dogs just to make Martok look bad, he refused to stand up for what's right because Gowron was Chancellor, he had the authority. But more damningly, he glorified in the unburied death of genocide, after a battle he didn't even get to fight, which was bad enough to give the Romulan general a moment of genuine, "Seriously, dude, what the fuck?" And that's not to mention what the Klingon code of honor says about anyone who is captured by the enemy.
The fact that even he thought honor was dead, though, pretty telling.
Hmm, Picard!Worf* should have given him a little speech about fighting for fighting's sake.
*From that series one TNG episode where Worf meets other Klingons and gets to give the big speech instead of Picard.
Pretty much this; Martok's was an honourable enough dude most of the time, which still puts him ahead of most of the rest of the High Council, but that just means he was honourable enough to see the shining beacon that was Worf taking down Gowron then giving up power because he knew he couldnt work the system well enough for the people and say to himself "one day I want to be that guy."
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I guess I should clarify. I'm sympathetic to their plight. It sucks being told that you've got to pack up and abandon your home, and I can see how that would make you want to lash out. However, you lose pretty much all sympathy from me once you start running around and blowing up civilian transports.
And the worst thing is, Sisko was right when he was talking with Eddington. Eddington was selling them a dream that just wouldn't happen. There was no way they were going to push the Cardiassians out.
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Weren't the Cardassians using those Civilian transports to smuggle weapons to their colonists? I remember it not being quite so simple.
I kinda remember that too, but I also thought they were attacking civilians at one point and that's why Sisko flipped his shit. I guess I need to go look it up.
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All it takes is some bad intel about which ships are smuggling weapons and... Ooops
As for the chemical weapon use on maquis colonies, wasn't that exactly what the maquis were doing/going to do to a bunch of Cardassian colonies? And without warning too; the only reason those killed any maquis was because Eddington called a bluff that turned out not to be anything of the sort.
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As I recall:
So in that respect, it's more like a Republican politician repeatedly saying "I never had gay sex in a truck stop bathroom at 3am" despite a growing crowd of truckers who say he did, then unexpectedly a video goes public showing him having gay sex with a truck stop sign visible in the background and a clock on the wall above the urinal marking 3am, and he goes "oh yeah now that you mention it, it had totally slipped my mind, my bad."
I am going to Paris in 2 weeks. Normally, this would not have anything to do with Star Trek. But, on my way there, I'll be stopped in Calgary (well, technically Cochrane). And this is happening. And I have been purchased tickets for this.
WHAT IS HAPPENING
You being a lucky son of a bitch is what is happening.
You lucky son of a bitch.
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I'm jealous.
All five Captains in one place! plus they're are hoping to get another 20 odd guests.
And in May there is a convention with all the Voyager cast (except Janeway) in the UK and I'll be meeting Worf and Riker in June so its not a total shame being unable to get to Canada at short notice!
The fact that we're still talking about it, and there's no real right answer, is a testament to Marc Alaimo and the writing team. Who do you believe ? Kira or Dukat ? Democrats or Republicans ? At the end of the day it's who you *want* to believe, i.e. it's a brilliant reflection of real life. Bravo.
It always amused me that Worf was basically the equivalent of an Klingon otaku.
You know, absolutely obsessed with his subject of interest, has no social skills, is a complete shut in (He had his quarters on the Defiant for a long time.), tends to Worf Effect off of anything pertinent, etc, etc.
I know it wasn't the intention back then, but they really nailed a fairly subtle and hilarious stereotype.
And on the Dukat thing, from watching the series from start to "Waltz", I don't recall them out and out giving too many statements, if any, implying that he was "full evil" until that episode. He was definitely pretty far into the dark side of the alignment scale, though.
Reading up on Waltz, it was intended to push him way into the dark side of the alignment scale past where he was before. Even the guy who played him kind of had a "What the hell?" moment, apparently, when he saw the script.
Most of the time, when he was pushed on what he did during the occupation he'd turn into an asshole about it, or would say something like "You should be glad you had me, and not Gul Super-Genocide". Which is a fair point if you follow the Cardassians through the two series they show up in. TNG and DS9 showed that the Cardassian concept of justice is anything but.
An eye for an eye (And they pointed out many times, that it wasn't just military personnel that were getting blown up, it was civilians too.) is pretty saintly by the incredibly fucked up legal standards of the Cardassians. Doesn't excuse it, but DS9 made a big point of pointing out that there were no "heroes" as accepted by traditional media when it comes to rebellions and oppressors.
The Bajoran resistance was actively targeting civilians from Cardassia in order to demoralize the enemy, which is a really bad thing to do for just about any militarized force, and tends to lead to very harsh reprisals in real life. Never mind in fiction. Kira even out and out says that the civilians were "acceptable targets" and that she had little to no regrets about killing them in one episode when pushed on it. I can't imagine that the Cardassians wouldn't go full on "scorched earth" under normal circumstances the first time they blew up an orbital drydock and killed 500 civilians and military personnel if someone wasn't holding them back.
And if the other Gul's we heard about and saw during the occupation were any standard (See, "Duet" for a particularly horrifying example of one. Can't spoil more then that without spoiling the episode, though.), Dukat was probably being honest on that point when he said that he was essentially slacking off on his daily "slaughter Bajorans" quota. Though it was at least in part to gratify his own ego.
He made no bones about wanting to reconquer Bajor though, prior to "Waltz". It at least appears from how he acted that he had left that behind starting around when he went all space pirate/rebel hero to fight the Klingons. Then he became the Supreme Warlord/Legate/Whatever of a Dominion backed Cardassia. At which point he went batshit crazy with ambition. Then he just went batshit crazy.
On the Maquis thing, if Sisko hadn't basically gone all one man army on the Maquis to get Eddington, they most likely would have won fairly early on in the conflict. Remember that the Maquis had pretty much succeeded in getting the tools needed to force out the Cardassians at least once, prior to Sisko rampaging through the sector and ruining everything.
I read somewhere (Was a long time ago.) that the writers wanted to actually have the Dominion win the war via ganking Earth and forcing a formal surrender from the head of the Federation.
The idea apparently was that Deep Space 9 would have been a staging point to retake Earth and bring the Federation back. Most of the ships and that giant Federation fleet seen in a certain episode would have said "Yeah, no, fuck that.". Apparently that this was shot down by higher ups and B&B as being too "dramatic". This actually fits with a few off-hand lines about Earth being unprotected in a few episodes, and it looks, after watching the episodes, that they left a way for it to happen in too. So I can believe it.
If it's true, that makes the whole Maquis storyline make much more sense in retrospect. There's no denying that Sisko went way off the deep end during that arc. His claims that Eddington was selling them on a lost cause were only justifiable if you don't take into account the actions that he and Starfleet took to try and kneecap the Maquis from achieving their objectives.
If that had happened then Sisko would have had a healthy dose of karma headed his way after some of the horrible shit he did to the Maquis in his pursuit of Eddington. And he probably would have been faced with the same choices. Which would have made for an interesting storyline.
And he is Pro-Maquis!
:shock:
I'll admit that the combination kind hurts my head if I think about it too hard. But they both sides had their points. It's just that Ducat wants praise and thanks from the Bajorans for only being a half Hitler. The Marqui were, "Just get out of our way and we'll retake our home." Granted, the Federation really couldn't do that without getting blamed for not controlling their citizens, but one of these things is not like the other.
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Sure, they lose their homes, and that sucks. But the Federation can give them new homes on new planets,, for free. Giving up their homes allows an end to a painful war, while keeping their homes continues the war and puts them right on the front lines. So... what do they gain by fighting for their homes, exactly?
To stay in their homes.
Except they made a big point that they had worked to build their homes. This wasn't the core of the Federation space, where everything was utopian. There were scarcities, and more importantly limits brought on by it being the frontier. Hence why the Maquis didn't just immediately turn around and start mass replicating WMD's to scare both sides off of their land. They had to go out and steal them from the more prosperous areas of space first.
Imagine if someone from the government came up to you one day and said to you "Hey, we're giving the land your house is on to Russia. I know we didn't ask you and you worked your ass off to build this place up to being livable, but we don't care. We'll compensate you for it once you're off-world.".
Would you be very happy with that?
Really, the bigger issue with the plot-hole is that doing something like that doesn't really make sense from the Federation's point of view. Unless the diplomat that signed the treaty that lead to that was a Cardassian spy in disguise, I can't see how the Federation thought it'd end well to basically try to throw out billions of people from a sector of space. Nor does it particularly fit with their MO.
It's kind of a trademark of DS9 that everything isn't so black and white as it was in earlier series. It's not so much me being an apologist as the show tending to show things in much deeper levels of complexity other then "cackling space god who detonates red shirt's heads for fun".
Kira was at one point a full blown, unapologetic terrorist (That wouldn't fly post 9/11, i'm sure.) who has no problem tapping into her old job when it comes down to it. Sisko is a model of a Starfleet officer---Who'd gladly burn half the galaxy down in revenge if you pissed him off enough. Odo's people want order but are willing to get it through sacrificing freedom. Also, the Founders are incredibly racist. Bashir is an awesome doctor but didn't exactly get that through his own inherent capabilities, something that bothers him to no end. The Federation actually does have and probably needs a covert intelligence agency. Etc, etc.
DS9 took the "perfect future", and added flaws to it that would logically come about as a result of such a place. Which I can like and respect, even if it shits all over the original concept of the show.
They can take our lives, but they can never take our... homes!
Yeah, doesn't have the same punch.
Honor and Glory!
Actually, despite not being Klingons it does kind of make sense that they would fight to defend what they had built simply because they had built it. Federation humans are not actually HUMAN, at their heart, because they live in a post-scarcity paradise and their drive to do...anything at all roister in pleasures of the flesh is because of some sort of improbable new social imperative to strive for personal excellence that overrides human nature. The colonists settled those worlds because they wanted to be the best little colonists they could be, bringing life from lifelessness and building a paradise world from the crude matter of whatever was there before the colony was started.
It is reasonable that such a post-human eudemoniac would seek to protect its creation as parent might protect their child or an artist might protect his work.
But I'm probably thinking too hard about philosophical improbabilities.
It's the same principle, the freedom to live their lives how/where they want.
Don't get me wrong, I'd have gone all Sisko on their asses, but the Maquis believed they were fighting for their way of life which doesn't have much to do with scarcity and has more to do with the human desire to tell people to fuck off.
Would I be happy about it? No.
Would I do it anyway since the alternative is having myself, my friends and family, and thousands of people die in a violent war, and spending the rest of my days worrying that the Russians are going to attack my home? Yes.
Except they pointed out that at that point they already were attacking prior to the evacuations. By the time we see a first hand perspective on the situation they're already implying that Cardassia is pushing for genocidal programs on the civilians and had been for some time.
That sort of behavior from the guys who are getting the land doesn't exactly engender the people living there to make a good will sacrifice on their part. Even if it isn't rational.
Also, don't forget that the writers made it a plot point that multiple Starfleet officers had the back of the Maquis, either in secret or out in the open. Assuming the proto-Maquis/Maquis were assuming they'd get unofficial support (And it appears they did.), that makes their odds from their perspective look much better.
Eddington hijacking a bunch of high end replicators that could mass produce weaponry and ships on a large scale when he defected probably helped keep them going quite a bit too. It's an off-hand line, but I believe it's Kira who flips out that the industrial replicators were going to Cardassia, since they could be used to mass produce WMD's or high end weaponry.