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[HBO] Game of Thrones S2 on Sunday; spoilers abound, no tags; NO BOOKS

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Posts

  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    why is cersei so god damned obsessed with having her only daughter trapped in a besieged castle!!!

    Pretty certain this is all in show background on HBO's site/DVDs, and has been alluded to in the series, but history circa Robert's Rebellion:
    Tyrion sent Myrcella to House Martell, of Dorne. Rhaegar Targaryen was married to Ellia Martell, sister of Doran Martell, the current Prince of Dorne. Ellia and her children were murdered during the Sack of King's Landing to extinguish the Targaryen line, rather more brutally than necessary (Ellia need not have been killed at all.) Lannister bannermen were responsible for their deaths, and although Doran has some idea of who was responsible - there have been rumors - he has no proof. Relations between Dorne and Casterly Rock are therefore somewhat strained, and Cersei fears that Doran may make some kind of power play with Myrcella as a hostage.

    Additionally, Cersei probably resents her child being sold into a political marriage. Cersei's political marriage wasn't exactly kittens and rainbows, after all.

    To expand on that just a tiny bit , in the extras on the blu-ray (maybe on the dvds also) it tells you it was specifically that
    Gregor Clegane(aka the Mountain)raped and then killed Ellia Martell. And then killed her infant son. So more reason to hate the guy. It is implied that the brutality was on Tywin's orders..

    Egos on
  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Also, if they're convinced Stannis is hitting the Muddgate, why the fuck don't they have stonemasons reinforcing it Bugs Bunny Style?

    With what? They would have to quarry the stone somewhere, get it to King's Landing, and put it in place. That would take months, at best.

    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't even get why they're fighting.
    Joffrey's a lil bitch. He has no place in the fight.
    Tyrion's got shit to do preparing for the city's defense. Why try to divert his attention?

    Tyrion was pretty clearly relishing the idea of Joffrey right in the middle of battle.
    Which is really pretty logical. If Joff dies bravely defending the city it's pretty much the best possible outcome, as far as Tyrion's concerned.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't even get why they're fighting.
    Joffrey's a lil bitch. He has no place in the fight.
    Tyrion's got shit to do preparing for the city's defense. Why try to divert his attention?

    Tyrion was pretty clearly relishing the idea of Joffrey right in the middle of battle.
    Which is really pretty logical. If Joff dies bravely defending the city it's pretty much the best possible outcome, as far as Tyrion's concerned.

    The nice son would become next in line then, right?

  • DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    I'm sure there's a non load bearing wall SOMEWHERE in kings landing

    YOLO. Swag. Whatever. Fuck it. Lets do this.
  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a non load bearing wall SOMEWHERE in kings landing

    "Yes, hello desperate starving masses, we're just going to pull down some of your homes in order to shore up that gate. It's for your own good."

    Yeah, that would go over well :P

    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.

    This is a fascinating tangent of the show for me.

    Jaime and Cersei are clearly attracted to each other on their own merits, but they also justify the whole thing in their "moments of doubt" by remembering that this is what the Targaryens did. Basically, they are seeking to emulate what was for the last 300 years the most powerful dynasty in all of Westeros -- a dynasty that transcended mere political power by virtue of their command of dragons and of other ostensibly supernatural powers. Jaime and Cersei are implicitly (or maybe explicitly) concluding that because the Targaryens gambled with potential madness for the chance to preserve their superior lineage, that it was okay for Lannisters to do it too.

    Just a clarification, since several people have mentioned it: The Targaryens were not wizards. Some of them thought they were wizards, but those guys were crazy. Magic has been all but dead in Westeros (and largely in Essos as well) since the decline of the Children of the Forest and the Doom of Valyria, respectively. Targaryen conquest was based on dragons and Targaryen dominion was based on political connections stemming from having a gigantic fucking family that married younger royals to noble houses and such, as well as putting younger royals in various positions of influence (maesters, for example.)

    Dany is immune to fire and hatched dragons from petrified eggs. Their line can tame dragons, which probably can't just be done by anybody (otherwise you'd probably hear of non-Targaryan dragon riders). I don't have to be book-learned to know that this implies that some of them have magic powers. How likely is it that Dany is the only Targaryan ever who has paranormal abilities?

    They say flat-out in the show that the gods flip a coin when a Targaryan is born, with heads being Greatness and tails being Batshit Loony. This is of course an exaggeration, as we know at least one Targaryan who is not crazy and not great, having refused the crown, ending up blind and humbled at the Wall with the Night's Watch. The original point remains, the Targy's are all up in eachother's business (and reproductive organs), and ruled for three centuries.

    Also, for magic being "dead", there sure is a lot of it still floating around. Valeryan steel magic swords, 900' walls made of ice that doesn't seem to ever melt, Zombie Drogo, weird shared prophetic Bran and Rickon dreams, glowing anti-poison necklaces, shadow baby assassins, illusionary warlocks...

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't even get why they're fighting.
    Joffrey's a lil bitch. He has no place in the fight.
    Tyrion's got shit to do preparing for the city's defense. Why try to divert his attention?

    Tyrion was pretty clearly relishing the idea of Joffrey right in the middle of battle.
    Which is really pretty logical. If Joff dies bravely defending the city it's pretty much the best possible outcome, as far as Tyrion's concerned.

    The nice son would become next in line then, right?

    Correct. Tommen, then either Myrcella or Stannis, depending on Westeros' view of gender. I think the only place we have confirmation is in the North it would be Myrcella (Robb's got a Lady in one of his war councils in season one).

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
  • CabezoneCabezone Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a non load bearing wall SOMEWHERE in kings landing

    Errr...you can't just fix up giant stone walls in a week. It would take a good year, at the minimum, to fix up a section of wall. That's after the stone mason spent months planning.

    Cabezone on
  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    why is cersei so god damned obsessed with having her only daughter trapped in a besieged castle!!!

    Pretty certain this is all in show background on HBO's site/DVDs, and has been alluded to in the series, but history circa Robert's Rebellion:
    Tyrion sent Myrcella to House Martell, of Dorne. Rhaegar Targaryen was married to Ellia Martell, sister of Doran Martell, the current Prince of Dorne. Ellia and her children were murdered during the Sack of King's Landing to extinguish the Targaryen line, rather more brutally than necessary (Ellia need not have been killed at all.) Lannister bannermen were responsible for their deaths, and although Doran has some idea of who was responsible - there have been rumors - he has no proof. Relations between Dorne and Casterly Rock are therefore somewhat strained, and Cersei fears that Doran may make some kind of power play with Myrcella as a hostage.

    Additionally, Cersei probably resents her child being sold into a political marriage. Cersei's political marriage wasn't exactly kittens and rainbows, after all.

    To expand on that just a tiny bit , in the extras on the blu-ray (maybe on the dvds also) it tells you it was specifically that
    Gregor Clegane(aka the Mountain)raped and then killed Ellia Martell. And then killed her infant son. So more reason to hate the guy. It is implied that the brutality was on Tywin's orders..

    ok. All i really gathered was more towards the "what right did YOU have to send MY daughter," angle than the historical relationship between the two houses. I just thought it was really odd that she is still clinging to it while they're also preparing for a siege. It comes off as spite mostly.

    I Do Design | I PSN- Subtle_Ties | 3DS: 3840-5210-2008 (Subtle)
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    I just thought it was really odd that she is still clinging to it while they're also preparing for a siege. It comes off as spite mostly.

    Well, she is a crazy, shortsighted, spiteful bitch.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't even get why they're fighting.
    Joffrey's a lil bitch. He has no place in the fight.
    Tyrion's got shit to do preparing for the city's defense. Why try to divert his attention?

    Tyrion was pretty clearly relishing the idea of Joffrey right in the middle of battle.
    Which is really pretty logical. If Joff dies bravely defending the city it's pretty much the best possible outcome, as far as Tyrion's concerned.

    The nice son would become next in line then, right?

    Correct. Tommen, then either Myrcella or Stannis, depending on Westeros' view of gender. I think the only place we have confirmation is in the North it would be Myrcella (Robb's got a Lady in one of his war councils in season one).

    That woman is from Bear Island, which is special. In the north, women aren't generally considered viable heirs.

    But there is somewhere where they are, but I don't think they've mentioned it in the show yet so I'll keep my mouth shut.

    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
  • TalkaTalka Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    Option #5: Hide him till Robb gets back and hand Kingslayer back over to Robb and let Robb deal with the Karstarks, maybe involving his wolf and/or the Great Jon?

    What does that look like, though? Robb is now for all intents and purposes intimidating his own bannermen -- people who have fought and died for his claim, and who will continue to fight and die in the near future -- in defense of what they perceive as their mortal enemy. It's become clear at this point that only the nobility really plays The Game, and that everyone else in this system are pawns / cannon fodder on the board. Robb might understand Jaime's inherent value as a bargaining chip, but that doesn't mean all of his bannermen and all of their subordinates do. They understand that this guy broke his oath and murdered the second-to-last legitimate king, and that he also just choked to death the son of one of their northern brothers.

    Robb's entire claim to being King in the North is staked on the fervor and devotion he can engender from his followers. As Varys has eloquently pointed out before, a king (or any authority figure) really only has as much legitimacy as people are willing to give him.

    It looks a hell of a lot better than the king's mom flouting his authority and releasing the most hated man in Westeros in an unsanctioned trade for her own daughters.

    You make a lot of good points, but she's still in the wrong: she disobeyed the king, thereby jeopardizing the war effort and the lives of her countrymen, and undermining her son's authority and ability to lead and command. All for a longshot chance at a deal she should know better than to believe in.

    I understand her thought process, and sympathize with her plight, but it was still the wrong decision and infuriating to watch.
    Note that when I say infuriating I don't mean contrived or poorly written. I'm not upset with the show, I'm upset with the character. Sort of like how I get mad at Joffrey, just on a waaaaaaaaaaay smaller level.

    Talka on
  • DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Cabezone wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a non load bearing wall SOMEWHERE in kings landing

    Errr...you can't just fix up giant stone walls in a week. It would take a good year, at the minimum, to fix up a section of wall. That's after the stone mason spent months planning.

    Sure you can. It doesn't need to be pretty or last a 100 years, but Tyrion is concerned that Stannis is to attack the weakest gate that will "fall in minutes under a battering ram" (or something to that effect), you'd think they'd make reinforcing that gate a priority. Hell, tear down a nearby building and reinforce the fucker with a pile of rocks.

    There's no need to worry about a long seige if they can just crash through the gate.

    It just seemed weird that he points it out to Bronn, but don't seem to be preparing for it even in an offhanded "get someone to take care of this shit" sort of way. But hell, maybe they are and Bronn isn't the guy to do anything about that.

    Deebaser on
    YOLO. Swag. Whatever. Fuck it. Lets do this.
  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Cabezone wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a non load bearing wall SOMEWHERE in kings landing

    Errr...you can't just fix up giant stone walls in a week. It would take a good year, at the minimum, to fix up a section of wall. That's after the stone mason spent months planning.

    Sure you can. It doesn't need to be pretty or last a 100 years, but Tyrion is concerned that Stannis is to attack the weakest gate that will "fall in minutes under a battering ram" (or something to that effect), you'd think they'd make reinforcing that gate a priority. Hell, tear down a nearby building and reinforce the fucker with a pile of rocks.
    There's no need to worry about a long seige if they can just crash through the gate.


    It just seemed weird that he points it out to Bronn, but don't seem to be preparing for it even in an offhanded "get someone to take care of this shit" sort of way. But hell, maybe they are and Bronn isn't the guy to do anything about that.

    Reading anything in Tyrion voice is entertaining. Read this as Tyrion and you'll wonder why he didn't say this in the show.

    Capt Howdy on
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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Also, if they're convinced Stannis is hitting the Muddgate...

    Is that why he doesn't have an heir yet?

  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    Maybe they got him and his brother confused.

  • DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Also, if they're convinced Stannis is hitting the Muddgate...

    Is that why he doesn't have an heir yet?

    :^:

    YOLO. Swag. Whatever. Fuck it. Lets do this.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Behemoth wrote: »
    Egos wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't even get why they're fighting.
    Joffrey's a lil bitch. He has no place in the fight.
    Tyrion's got shit to do preparing for the city's defense. Why try to divert his attention?

    Tyrion was pretty clearly relishing the idea of Joffrey right in the middle of battle.
    Which is really pretty logical. If Joff dies bravely defending the city it's pretty much the best possible outcome, as far as Tyrion's concerned.

    The nice son would become next in line then, right?

    Correct. Tommen, then either Myrcella or Stannis, depending on Westeros' view of gender. I think the only place we have confirmation is in the North it would be Myrcella (Robb's got a Lady in one of his war councils in season one).

    That woman is from Bear Island, which is special. In the north, women aren't generally considered viable heirs.

    But there is somewhere where they are, but I don't think they've mentioned it in the show yet so I'll keep my mouth shut.

    Well, the question is whether women can inherit when there are no male heirs, which I don't think has been answered, but was generally yes (thus: Elizabeth I, for example).

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Judging by his pig shit line, I'm assuming he wants the mud gate to stay weak so that he can lay some kinda trap there when Stannis inevitably attacks it.

    And it's quite possibly not the actual GATE that's weak, but rather the entire section of wall there may simply be short, or it might not be well designed for archers, or only has ladders up to it so you can't bring up much boiling oil, or plenty of other weaknesses. There's a lot involved in what makes a wall defendable, not just the thickness of its gate.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.

    This is a fascinating tangent of the show for me.

    Jaime and Cersei are clearly attracted to each other on their own merits, but they also justify the whole thing in their "moments of doubt" by remembering that this is what the Targaryens did. Basically, they are seeking to emulate what was for the last 300 years the most powerful dynasty in all of Westeros -- a dynasty that transcended mere political power by virtue of their command of dragons and of other ostensibly supernatural powers. Jaime and Cersei are implicitly (or maybe explicitly) concluding that because the Targaryens gambled with potential madness for the chance to preserve their superior lineage, that it was okay for Lannisters to do it too.

    Just a clarification, since several people have mentioned it: The Targaryens were not wizards. Some of them thought they were wizards, but those guys were crazy. Magic has been all but dead in Westeros (and largely in Essos as well) since the decline of the Children of the Forest and the Doom of Valyria, respectively. Targaryen conquest was based on dragons and Targaryen dominion was based on political connections stemming from having a gigantic fucking family that married younger royals to noble houses and such, as well as putting younger royals in various positions of influence (maesters, for example.)

    Dany is immune to fire and hatched dragons from petrified eggs. Their line can tame dragons, which probably can't just be done by anybody (otherwise you'd probably hear of non-Targaryan dragon riders). I don't have to be book-learned to know that this implies that some of them have magic powers. How likely is it that Dany is the only Targaryan ever who has paranormal abilities?

    They say flat-out in the show that the gods flip a coin when a Targaryan is born, with heads being Greatness and tails being Batshit Loony. This is of course an exaggeration, as we know at least one Targaryan who is not crazy and not great, having refused the crown, ending up blind and humbled at the Wall with the Night's Watch. The original point remains, the Targy's are all up in eachother's business (and reproductive organs), and ruled for three centuries.

    Also, for magic being "dead", there sure is a lot of it still floating around. Valeryan steel magic swords, 900' walls made of ice that doesn't seem to ever melt, Zombie Drogo, weird shared prophetic Bran and Rickon dreams, glowing anti-poison necklaces, shadow baby assassins, illusionary warlocks...

    Valyrian steel isn't magical, just really really fucking good steel. It's what idiots think Katanas are.

    The Wall is in the same latitudes as, say, the northern half of Canada. Just outside the Arctic Circle. It's cold in them thar hills. As the show starts, we're on the cusp of autumn - figure early September - and the Watch walks around in like eight layers of fur all the time.

    The rest fits into the undercurrent of magic returning to the world.

    sig.png
  • PoultryGeistPoultryGeist The Ghostly Chicken Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Also, if they're convinced Stannis is hitting the Muddgate...

    Is that why he doesn't have an heir yet?

    Hiooooooo

    IcdplGM.png
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Cabezone wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a non load bearing wall SOMEWHERE in kings landing

    Errr...you can't just fix up giant stone walls in a week. It would take a good year, at the minimum, to fix up a section of wall. That's after the stone mason spent months planning.

    Sure you can. It doesn't need to be pretty or last a 100 years, but Tyrion is concerned that Stannis is to attack the weakest gate that will "fall in minutes under a battering ram" (or something to that effect), you'd think they'd make reinforcing that gate a priority. Hell, tear down a nearby building and reinforce the fucker with a pile of rocks.

    There's no need to worry about a long seige if they can just crash through the gate.

    It just seemed weird that he points it out to Bronn, but don't seem to be preparing for it even in an offhanded "get someone to take care of this shit" sort of way. But hell, maybe they are and Bronn isn't the guy to do anything about that.

    Moreover I'm pretty certain they were breaking up bricks to use in the catapults anyway.

    sig.png
  • THESPOOKYTHESPOOKY im alucard Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.

    This is a fascinating tangent of the show for me.

    Jaime and Cersei are clearly attracted to each other on their own merits, but they also justify the whole thing in their "moments of doubt" by remembering that this is what the Targaryens did. Basically, they are seeking to emulate what was for the last 300 years the most powerful dynasty in all of Westeros -- a dynasty that transcended mere political power by virtue of their command of dragons and of other ostensibly supernatural powers. Jaime and Cersei are implicitly (or maybe explicitly) concluding that because the Targaryens gambled with potential madness for the chance to preserve their superior lineage, that it was okay for Lannisters to do it too.

    Just a clarification, since several people have mentioned it: The Targaryens were not wizards. Some of them thought they were wizards, but those guys were crazy. Magic has been all but dead in Westeros (and largely in Essos as well) since the decline of the Children of the Forest and the Doom of Valyria, respectively. Targaryen conquest was based on dragons and Targaryen dominion was based on political connections stemming from having a gigantic fucking family that married younger royals to noble houses and such, as well as putting younger royals in various positions of influence (maesters, for example.)

    Dany is immune to fire and hatched dragons from petrified eggs. Their line can tame dragons, which probably can't just be done by anybody (otherwise you'd probably hear of non-Targaryan dragon riders). I don't have to be book-learned to know that this implies that some of them have magic powers. How likely is it that Dany is the only Targaryan ever who has paranormal abilities?

    They say flat-out in the show that the gods flip a coin when a Targaryan is born, with heads being Greatness and tails being Batshit Loony. This is of course an exaggeration, as we know at least one Targaryan who is not crazy and not great, having refused the crown, ending up blind and humbled at the Wall with the Night's Watch. The original point remains, the Targy's are all up in eachother's business (and reproductive organs), and ruled for three centuries.

    Also, for magic being "dead", there sure is a lot of it still floating around. Valeryan steel magic swords, 900' walls made of ice that doesn't seem to ever melt, Zombie Drogo, weird shared prophetic Bran and Rickon dreams, glowing anti-poison necklaces, shadow baby assassins, illusionary warlocks...

    Valyrian steel isn't magical, just really really fucking good steel. It's what idiots think Katanas are.

    They're spellforged, never lose an edge, never break, etc. Totes magic. Whatever they're made out of probably isn't, but the swords themselves are.

    EDIT: I re-read that and realized how dumb it sounded. Valyrian steel is a special kind of steel AFAIK, and pretty much everything that comes out of that place is magic as fuck, but I don't know if the steel is inherently magic in the same way the swords definitely are.

    THESPOOKY on
    3715dce84e531295d5cf9e9c7b7c0b5c.png
  • spamfilterspamfilter Registered User regular
    Valyrian steels are magical. Beyond that I won't say anything.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure the flip a coin for the Targayrens thing is because their inbreeding has made their line weak and prone to teh crazy

  • GenlyAiGenlyAi Registered User regular
    I heard Dinklage is going to be on All Things Considered on NPR today, talking about Tyrion. That is all.

  • HamurabiHamurabi AmsterdamRegistered User regular
    GenlyAi wrote: »
    I heard Dinklage is going to be on All Things Considered on NPR today, talking about Tyrion. That is all.

    My two favorite things, together at last.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure the flip a coin for the Targayrens thing is because their inbreeding has made their line weak and prone to teh crazy

    Yup. Inbreeding produces ... interesting results like that.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.

    This is a fascinating tangent of the show for me.

    Jaime and Cersei are clearly attracted to each other on their own merits, but they also justify the whole thing in their "moments of doubt" by remembering that this is what the Targaryens did. Basically, they are seeking to emulate what was for the last 300 years the most powerful dynasty in all of Westeros -- a dynasty that transcended mere political power by virtue of their command of dragons and of other ostensibly supernatural powers. Jaime and Cersei are implicitly (or maybe explicitly) concluding that because the Targaryens gambled with potential madness for the chance to preserve their superior lineage, that it was okay for Lannisters to do it too.

    Just a clarification, since several people have mentioned it: The Targaryens were not wizards. Some of them thought they were wizards, but those guys were crazy. Magic has been all but dead in Westeros (and largely in Essos as well) since the decline of the Children of the Forest and the Doom of Valyria, respectively. Targaryen conquest was based on dragons and Targaryen dominion was based on political connections stemming from having a gigantic fucking family that married younger royals to noble houses and such, as well as putting younger royals in various positions of influence (maesters, for example.)

    Dany is immune to fire and hatched dragons from petrified eggs. Their line can tame dragons, which probably can't just be done by anybody (otherwise you'd probably hear of non-Targaryan dragon riders). I don't have to be book-learned to know that this implies that some of them have magic powers. How likely is it that Dany is the only Targaryan ever who has paranormal abilities?

    They say flat-out in the show that the gods flip a coin when a Targaryan is born, with heads being Greatness and tails being Batshit Loony. This is of course an exaggeration, as we know at least one Targaryan who is not crazy and not great, having refused the crown, ending up blind and humbled at the Wall with the Night's Watch. The original point remains, the Targy's are all up in eachother's business (and reproductive organs), and ruled for three centuries.

    Also, for magic being "dead", there sure is a lot of it still floating around. Valeryan steel magic swords, 900' walls made of ice that doesn't seem to ever melt, Zombie Drogo, weird shared prophetic Bran and Rickon dreams, glowing anti-poison necklaces, shadow baby assassins, illusionary warlocks...

    Valyrian steel isn't magical, just really really fucking good steel. It's what idiots think Katanas are.

    The Wall is in the same latitudes as, say, the northern half of Canada. Just outside the Arctic Circle. It's cold in them thar hills. As the show starts, we're on the cusp of autumn - figure early September - and the Watch walks around in like eight layers of fur all the time.

    The rest fits into the undercurrent of magic returning to the world.

    Er, wait. The Wall and Valeryan steel swords aren't magic, because magic is dead in the world... but they were all made while magic was alive in the world (the arts were lost).

    But magic is returning to the world? That doesn't make any sense.

    My point was that magic was never entirely dead, because there lingered a few ancient magic objects, like the swords and the Wall, and a few people clearly knew how to cast spells before the comet or the dragon eggs hatched (Mirri Maz Dur, the Warlocks, Melisandre); ritual magic doesn't just appear fully formed in someone's head; they have to learn it. Probably. They would not have kept the rituals alive if they didn't have any effect.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Eh, it's like saying damascus steel was made with dark magic.

    In a world without knowledge of chemistry, sufficiently advanced technology, magic, etc.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.

    This is a fascinating tangent of the show for me.

    Jaime and Cersei are clearly attracted to each other on their own merits, but they also justify the whole thing in their "moments of doubt" by remembering that this is what the Targaryens did. Basically, they are seeking to emulate what was for the last 300 years the most powerful dynasty in all of Westeros -- a dynasty that transcended mere political power by virtue of their command of dragons and of other ostensibly supernatural powers. Jaime and Cersei are implicitly (or maybe explicitly) concluding that because the Targaryens gambled with potential madness for the chance to preserve their superior lineage, that it was okay for Lannisters to do it too.

    Just a clarification, since several people have mentioned it: The Targaryens were not wizards. Some of them thought they were wizards, but those guys were crazy. Magic has been all but dead in Westeros (and largely in Essos as well) since the decline of the Children of the Forest and the Doom of Valyria, respectively. Targaryen conquest was based on dragons and Targaryen dominion was based on political connections stemming from having a gigantic fucking family that married younger royals to noble houses and such, as well as putting younger royals in various positions of influence (maesters, for example.)

    Dany is immune to fire and hatched dragons from petrified eggs. Their line can tame dragons, which probably can't just be done by anybody (otherwise you'd probably hear of non-Targaryan dragon riders). I don't have to be book-learned to know that this implies that some of them have magic powers. How likely is it that Dany is the only Targaryan ever who has paranormal abilities?

    They say flat-out in the show that the gods flip a coin when a Targaryan is born, with heads being Greatness and tails being Batshit Loony. This is of course an exaggeration, as we know at least one Targaryan who is not crazy and not great, having refused the crown, ending up blind and humbled at the Wall with the Night's Watch. The original point remains, the Targy's are all up in eachother's business (and reproductive organs), and ruled for three centuries.

    Also, for magic being "dead", there sure is a lot of it still floating around. Valeryan steel magic swords, 900' walls made of ice that doesn't seem to ever melt, Zombie Drogo, weird shared prophetic Bran and Rickon dreams, glowing anti-poison necklaces, shadow baby assassins, illusionary warlocks...

    Valyrian steel isn't magical, just really really fucking good steel. It's what idiots think Katanas are.

    The Wall is in the same latitudes as, say, the northern half of Canada. Just outside the Arctic Circle. It's cold in them thar hills. As the show starts, we're on the cusp of autumn - figure early September - and the Watch walks around in like eight layers of fur all the time.

    The rest fits into the undercurrent of magic returning to the world.

    Er, wait. The Wall and Valeryan steel swords aren't magic, because magic is dead in the world... but they were all made while magic was alive in the world (the arts were lost).

    But magic is returning to the world? That doesn't make any sense.

    My point was that magic was never entirely dead, because there lingered a few ancient magic objects, like the swords and the Wall, and a few people clearly knew how to cast spells before the comet or the dragon eggs hatched (Mirri Maz Dur, the Warlocks, Melisandre); ritual magic doesn't just appear fully formed in someone's head; they have to learn it. Probably. They would not have kept the rituals alive if they didn't have any effect.

    Exorcisms don't have any effect, but the Catholic Church still has an exorcist in every parish (maybe diocese) as a ceremonial/seniority thing. They just revised the rite ten years ago or so.

    We don't really know if dragons are a cause or a symptom of the uptick in magic, but no educated person in Westeros, at the start of the show, believes it works or exists at all. There are indications that those in Essos don't really put much stock in it, either - the Spice King refers to Pyat Pree as a charlatan about ten seconds before mirror images slit his throat.

    Salvation122 on
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  • HamurabiHamurabi AmsterdamRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure the flip a coin for the Targayrens thing is because their inbreeding has made their line weak and prone to teh crazy

    Yup. Inbreeding produces ... interesting results like that.

    And because this is neat and tidy fictional world, the two sides of the coin are either Great or Mad, broadly defined. Dany, Rhaegar, Aegon the Conqueror, and Maester Aemon (in his ability to fend off the temptations of power) were the former; Aerys II, Viserys, some of the others mentioned in the TV series were the latter. There were no mentally retarded, stillborn, etc. or just so-so Targaryens (that we know of) because either they were locked up out of sight somewhere, or never existed because autistic Targaryens aren't as interesting as Great or Mad ones.

  • THESPOOKYTHESPOOKY im alucard Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Eh, it's like saying damascus steel was made with dark magic.

    In a world without knowledge of chemistry, sufficiently advanced technology, magic, etc.

    No, trust me, it's literal actual real magic. They are magic swords. It's not just durable steel, it is unbreakable steel that won't lose an edge after thousands of years of use.

    3715dce84e531295d5cf9e9c7b7c0b5c.png
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    THESPOOKY wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Eh, it's like saying damascus steel was made with dark magic.

    In a world without knowledge of chemistry, sufficiently advanced technology, magic, etc.

    No, trust me, it's literal actual real magic. They are magic swords. It's not just durable steel, it is unbreakable steel that won't lose an edge after thousands of years of use.

    Why don't you come into the book thread and cite that? That's not me being a dick, that's genuine interest, since there's been no explicit mention of Valyrian steel being actual magic in either medium to the best of my knowledge and you seem pretty damn sure.

    sig.png
  • NeliNeli Registered User regular
    Awesome episode... Kind of feels like I'm saying this about every episode though. :D

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    I have stared into Satan's asshole, and it fucking winked at me.
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  • Kyoka SuigetsuKyoka Suigetsu Odin gave his left eye for knowledge. I would give far more Registered User regular
    Well i liked the episode. a nice well written talky, before next week's shitstorm. Bronn, Tyrion, Varys and Stannis were great in particular

    Liam Neeson throws his daughter into a volcano

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  • NeliNeli Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I like the talky episodes best

    More talky please, and more Varys!

    Also, was it just me or did they have a ton of beautiful scenery in this episode? I love it when TV somehow manages amazing environments like this. Everything from the beautiful forests they walk through to the icey landscapes of the north and the awesomely rendered Kings Landing

    Neli on
    vhgb4m.jpg
    I have stared into Satan's asshole, and it fucking winked at me.
    [/size]
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    I loved Bronn moaning about having to wear a cloak. A GOLD cloak, no less.

    Favorite moment was Tyrion telling Varys that he wished they could speak openly and honestly, and Varys emphatically echoing the sentiment while making it clear that it simply wasn't in the cards, sorry.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    THESPOOKY wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Eh, it's like saying damascus steel was made with dark magic.

    In a world without knowledge of chemistry, sufficiently advanced technology, magic, etc.

    No, trust me, it's literal actual real magic. They are magic swords. It's not just durable steel, it is unbreakable steel that won't lose an edge after thousands of years of use.

    Why don't you come into the book thread and cite that? That's not me being a dick, that's genuine interest, since there's been no explicit mention of Valyrian steel being actual magic in either medium to the best of my knowledge and you seem pretty damn sure.

    They say on the show in the first season that the swords always stay sharp.

    You don't need to explicitly say that it is magic. It is clearly beyond even our modern Earth technology.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
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