It makes a difference when Joffrey is the kind of king who literally kills people just for fun.
He doesn't kill random Lannister soldiers living hundreds of miles away from King's Landing for fun.
Neither does Robb Stark.
No, he's doing it for "honor". I'm sure the dead soldiers feel much better knowing that it was for a good cause :P
You're right. He shouldn't oppose an illegitimate king who's being an evil prick. Then when the inevitable overthrow happens in a few years and it's someone else we can get all smug at that guy for not lying down and taking it.
You don't get it. Lannister troops and Stark troops don't have to care who's ruling in King's Landing. It makes literally no difference to them, but they're killing each other because that guy killed this other guy's dad. This is why monarchy is such a horrible system of government, you have infighting and civil wars all the time over meaningless shit.
I mean, is Ned Stark's death a travesty of justice? Yes. But does it justify a war that's going to cost the lives of tens of thousands of smallfolk?
So? The show isn't a quest for democracy. And in this case the person who will encourage the lords to go to war the least is the better one, and that ain't Joffy-boy.
And the point is, it doens't make a difference to the smallfolk.
And I just assumed that the smallfolk would be concerned with having leadership that wouldn't recklessly throw their lives away by creating political imbalances. Silly me. 8->
How is Joffrey gonna "recklessly throw their lives away"?
The whole point you keep missing is that there's no appreciable difference for the smallfolk no matter who wins.
Really? Well, speaking as someone who only watched the TV series, I can only guess. But Joffrey easily could...
1) Kill random people just for laughs.
2) Torture entire villages to death on suspicion that one might have done something to him.
3) Replace the local lords who might actually care about the smallfolk.
4) Conscript everyone when he decides to invade some other continent.
5) Or just let everyone starve or get murdered by ice zombies during the Long Winter.
Just some examples.
And which if these things would some other king not do?
How much nicer was their life under Robert? How much nicer would it be under Stannis?
There's no difference to the regular people who rules? Are you joking? Did you not notice the unrest when the baby killings were going on? The one who rules means everything.
There's no difference to the regular people who rules? Are you joking? Did you not notice the unrest when the baby killings were going on? The one who rules means everything.
Yeah, cause Joffery was killing all the babies everywhere. And the war is certainly not killing babies or people everywhere.
An appreciable difference in rulers is that Cersei Lannister decided to close King's Landing to refugees and turn them away with armed men.
Also didn't Joffrey want to increase the amount given in tribute for a standing army even before the war?
An interesting conundrum, on the one hand it would be logical to expect war after executing Stark, on the other hand Joffrey is an idiot, and on the gross mutant third hand Cersei had taught Joffrey that everyone was an enemy that needed to be destroyed.
Robb should have told the nurse to ask the Lannisters. Those fucks are to blame for ALL OF THIS. It's that simple. Does the average person care about who is king? No. Does it matter to them who is king? Lets say no. Does any of that make a slightest bit of difference to the reality that Robb is doing what needs to be done? Nope. I'm sure all the people who died when Robert became king didn't like everything either. And it was tragic. But it needed to be done.
No, but it absolves you of having people trying to throw it in your face like you should have all the answers because they say so. Or it should, but alas.
Not having those kinds of answers can lead to a considerably worse situation; Ned's fate in S1 should have made it very clear that the best intentions and the most justified reasons for doing something don't necessarily translate into the right outcomes. IMO Robb *needs* people who throw these things in his face every now and then.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I noticed a nice touch in the first scene with the Thirteen:
When, er, Merchant-With-The-Name-That-Is-Too-Long-To-State gestures back at them and introduces them as the city's ruling body, Xaro Xhoan Daxos tips his head to Dany.
After every new episode of this show, I watch it again and pay close attention to the faces of the people who aren't speaking. A trick I learned watching the Destructoid Show, from Max Scoville.
Not having those kinds of answers can lead to a considerably worse situation; Ned's fate in S1 should have made it very clear that the best intentions and the most justified reasons for doing something don't necessarily translate into the right outcomes. IMO Robb *needs* people who throw these things in his face every now and then.
He needs people who bring these things up. It's really hard to buy no one else mentioned this problem in the first place, but Robb doesn't need his men's confidence in him or his confidence in himself chipped away at in the middle of a war by someone who didn't seem to have any bright ideas to share, just assigning blame in the wrong spot. But I suppose that's human nature.
I didn't see Robb react as if his, or his men's, confidence was chipped away. What I did see was Robb looking intrigued and interested in the nurse. He seems to like women who don't just suck up to him - and if they're moderately good looking (definitely more so than Lord Filch's daughters, it would seem), that doesn't exactly hurt.
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"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
And maybe it wasn't. Everyone may think he was just hitting on her and carry on. But she wasn't thinking about it when she was denouncing him or just flirts really weird.
On "smallfolk":
I know that scene with the nurse tried to show how ordinary peasants are going to pay the heaviest price in all this, but wasn't medieval noble infighting relatively limited in scope? That is, small armies composed of nobles and mercenaries with peasant levies as a negligible and small component (at least compared to later conflicts of religion, nationalism, and ideology)?
Until the 30 Years War pretty much yeah, but although this is based on medieval society, it has elements of Early Modern Europe as well, especially Feast of Crows
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jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
The problem for the smallfolk isn't mainly being conscripted and dying in battles, but the fact that medieval armies are bad at logistics and need to raid and pillage a lot to supply themselves. Scorched earth errywhere.
Just because something 'needed to be done' doesn't mean that you should be absolved of any responsibility for your actions.
It kind of does. The Lannisters are 100% responsible for every life lost in the war. Robb even gave them terms. Unless he makes some huge tactical blunder getting civilians and his own men killed, he's doing everything exactly how it should be done.
See it from the average Lannisters point of view; technically Ned started the war when he and his men betrayed the King, then Cat involved their lord Tywin when she kidnapped Tyrion and tried to have him executed at the Eyrie. Instead of submitting to the crown after this, Robb starts to wage a war and marches for Kings Landing after declaring himself a King
I have stared into Satan's asshole, and it fucking winked at me.
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KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
Does anyone have some HD screens of the dire wolves from this season? Preferably Jon's when it threatens one of the daughters and you can see it unobstructed.
I wanna use them as inspiration and research for concept art on an alt avatar in Heroes of Newerth.
I thought the nurse looked familiar (I was 50% certain she'd been in the BBC miniseries The Hour) - and it turns out the actress is the granddaughter of Charlie Chaplin. She's also the great-granddaughter of Eugene O'Neill... and the second cousin once removed of some person called Drunkfux, believe it or not. The things you learn on IMDB...
See it from the average Lannisters point of view; technically Ned started the war when he and his men betrayed the King, then Cat involved their lord Tywin when she kidnapped Tyrion and tried to have him executed at the Eyrie. Instead of submitting to the crown after this, Robb starts to wage a war and marches for Kings Landing after declaring himself a King
The Bad Guy Thinks He's Good isn't a defense. It's the bad guys fantasy. Everyone thinks their justified to some degree in their actions. Doesn't mean they are. No, by and large the Lannister army doesn't fall under that, they're just poor sods. But the reason they're poor sods dying and getting their foot chopped off instead of farming is the Lannisters thinking they can do bad things and not pay for it.
Why does Robb have to be the 'sensible' one? Why can't the Lannisters just go "Ok, have the Throne. We'll be over here being rich while you sell us the Kingdom.". It's as reasonable as Robb just chilling up north.
Acknowledging your share of responsibility != not doing something - and responsibility is not a zero-sum game. If Robb is to be a good leader, I would expect him to be aware of the human cost of his actions even if he can justify them.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Right. Which he was demonstrating by the very fact he was there to be chided in the first place. That was just dismissed, though, to make her point. While she does have one, the presentation was really lacking.
Robb is a nicer person than Joffrey, because pretty much everyone is.
But if I was one of his peasants and I was levied and refused to go to war, he would have me executed.
He would feel bad about it and maybe wield the blade himself like his father taught him, and Joffrey would feel good about it and take chicks to see my head on a spike, before having them beaten.
I'd care a little bit about the difference. But I'd still be dead.
Robb is a nicer person than Joffrey, because pretty much everyone is.
But if I was one of his peasants and I was levied and refused to go to war, he would have me executed.
He would feel bad about it and maybe wield the blade himself like his father taught him, and Joffrey would feel good about it and take chicks to see my head on a spike, before having them beaten.
I'd care a little bit about the difference. But I'd still be dead.
Well thats really the fault of the world the story is in not one particular person
Acknowledging your share of responsibility != not doing something - and responsibility is not a zero-sum game. If Robb is to be a good leader, I would expect him to be aware of the human cost of his actions even if he can justify them.
I thought Robb did care about people dying? At the 2 minute mark. Season 1, Episode 9.
Of course because my skyplus box went all odd it only recorded the last five minutes of the last episode so all I got was Melisandre's birth scene. I'll shut up until I see what this nurse lady actually had to say.
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@Domhnall: He does, but I think it's fair enough to have people reminding him of this every now and then. Especially people who are in stressful situations and haven't had the benefit of watching earlier episodes. ;-)
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Also, Robb's actions are making a pretty huge difference to the smallfolk of the riverlands, whose villages were being burnt and their inhabitants tortured and massacred by Lannister soldiers just because their liege had a sister who married a Stark.
Also, Robb's actions are making a pretty huge difference to the smallfolk of the riverlands, whose villages were being burnt and their inhabitants tortured and massacred by Lannister soldiers just because they were there at the time.
On "smallfolk":
I know that scene with the nurse tried to show how ordinary peasants are going to pay the heaviest price in all this, but wasn't medieval noble infighting relatively limited in scope? That is, small armies composed of nobles and mercenaries with peasant levies as a negligible and small component (at least compared to later conflicts of religion, nationalism, and ideology)?
It depended on the region, but usually there were a fair share of peasant levies anyway. The real way the peasants suffered was that warfare was all about sending out small groups of raiders and trying to burn down the enemy's country before he burns down yours. That was where knights actually saw most of their combat, was when small mounted bands would run into each other, which is why tourneys were usually all about small team battles and jousts. Actual set-piece battles were extremely rare. Richard the Lionhearted only ever fought like one or two proper battles in his whole campaign. Large battles were so risky that the general wisdom was to absolutely avoid it unless it was the last possible option, or unless you outnumbered the enemy overwhelmingly.
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And which if these things would some other king not do?
How much nicer was their life under Robert? How much nicer would it be under Stannis?
Yeah, cause Joffery was killing all the babies everywhere. And the war is certainly not killing babies or people everywhere.
Also didn't Joffrey want to increase the amount given in tribute for a standing army even before the war?
An interesting conundrum, on the one hand it would be logical to expect war after executing Stark, on the other hand Joffrey is an idiot, and on the gross mutant third hand Cersei had taught Joffrey that everyone was an enemy that needed to be destroyed.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
After every new episode of this show, I watch it again and pay close attention to the faces of the people who aren't speaking. A trick I learned watching the Destructoid Show, from Max Scoville.
He needs people who bring these things up. It's really hard to buy no one else mentioned this problem in the first place, but Robb doesn't need his men's confidence in him or his confidence in himself chipped away at in the middle of a war by someone who didn't seem to have any bright ideas to share, just assigning blame in the wrong spot. But I suppose that's human nature.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I know that scene with the nurse tried to show how ordinary peasants are going to pay the heaviest price in all this, but wasn't medieval noble infighting relatively limited in scope? That is, small armies composed of nobles and mercenaries with peasant levies as a negligible and small component (at least compared to later conflicts of religion, nationalism, and ideology)?
It kind of does. The Lannisters are 100% responsible for every life lost in the war. Robb even gave them terms. Unless he makes some huge tactical blunder getting civilians and his own men killed, he's doing everything exactly how it should be done.
I wanna use them as inspiration and research for concept art on an alt avatar in Heroes of Newerth.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
Lots of people are descendants of Drunkfux.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
The Bad Guy Thinks He's Good isn't a defense. It's the bad guys fantasy. Everyone thinks their justified to some degree in their actions. Doesn't mean they are. No, by and large the Lannister army doesn't fall under that, they're just poor sods. But the reason they're poor sods dying and getting their foot chopped off instead of farming is the Lannisters thinking they can do bad things and not pay for it.
Why does Robb have to be the 'sensible' one? Why can't the Lannisters just go "Ok, have the Throne. We'll be over here being rich while you sell us the Kingdom.". It's as reasonable as Robb just chilling up north.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
But if I was one of his peasants and I was levied and refused to go to war, he would have me executed.
He would feel bad about it and maybe wield the blade himself like his father taught him, and Joffrey would feel good about it and take chicks to see my head on a spike, before having them beaten.
I'd care a little bit about the difference. But I'd still be dead.
Well thats really the fault of the world the story is in not one particular person
Well yeah Robb seceding from the South is probably not something Lannister soldiers care very much about it.
I thought Robb did care about people dying? At the 2 minute mark. Season 1, Episode 9.
Of course because my skyplus box went all odd it only recorded the last five minutes of the last episode so all I got was Melisandre's birth scene. I'll shut up until I see what this nurse lady actually had to say.
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"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Better.
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FTFY
It depended on the region, but usually there were a fair share of peasant levies anyway. The real way the peasants suffered was that warfare was all about sending out small groups of raiders and trying to burn down the enemy's country before he burns down yours. That was where knights actually saw most of their combat, was when small mounted bands would run into each other, which is why tourneys were usually all about small team battles and jousts. Actual set-piece battles were extremely rare. Richard the Lionhearted only ever fought like one or two proper battles in his whole campaign. Large battles were so risky that the general wisdom was to absolutely avoid it unless it was the last possible option, or unless you outnumbered the enemy overwhelmingly.