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Today In The [War On Women] : Daniel Tosh - Professional Goosebag
AngelHedgie
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Registered User regular
Yep, so much for compromise:
http://m.npr.org/story/153218446?url=/blogs/health/2012/05/21/153218446/catholic-groups-sue-obama-administration-over-birth-control-rule
You have to wonder - after the kicking around they got the last time, why return for more?
http://m.npr.org/story/153218446?url=/blogs/health/2012/05/21/153218446/catholic-groups-sue-obama-administration-over-birth-control-rule
You have to wonder - after the kicking around they got the last time, why return for more?
XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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They either hope the Supreme Court will side with them (possibly because the SC has been so partisan lately) or they hope for a Romney Admin to give them an out when this would come to bear in the courts.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Because they are totally impartial. But they'll demand every liberal justice recuse themselves because they are atheists.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I got a little excited when I saw your ship.
In order for the church to argue that they're free to be however much bigoted arseholes as they please, they are automatically opening up the door for other religions' bigotry.
Like say, for example, sharia law.
I think we all know how these people feel about sharia law.
"Now, some religions are obviously more equal than others..."
I got a little excited when I saw your ship.
Also, pertaining to the name of this thread: Hyperbolic much?
They don't. Unless it's changed since this first came to public attention, I thought the financing of contraception was a matter between the insurance company and the employee.
It doesn't. Churches are exempt. In fact, the law that went into play actually frees Churches specifically from having to do this, in 8 different states, where they had to before.
Not really, but that's also not what's happening on the government's side. The church is asserting authority where it has none and claiming the government is infringing on its rights. The rule they're suing about was specifically crafted to avoid "telling the Catholic church how to handle birth control" but that wasn't good enough: the church wants any employer to be able to keep women from getting birth control (this combined with many many other regressive and overbearing laws sponsored by the Party of Small Government add up to the War on Women).
In my view, if they're not an actual church, and especially if their accepting federal money, their religious conviction shouldn't be coming into it, but that's not the current legal view, nor the view the administration took in crafting this law.
It's one thing to say "Government, don't force your beliefs on me." It's another to say "Government, force my beliefs on everyone else." Don't be hypocrites, Catholic Church!
Read my fairy tale webcomic, The Fox & The Firebird, at: http://www.fairytaletwisted.com
Note: Catholics believe in birth control just fine. The Church, otoh...
Yeah, I edited it to "Catholic Church" right after you quoted me.
I'm not intending to condemn all Catholics. Just the group of people who support this action. I can respect people's opinions that differ from mine. I respect people that don't believe in contraception, even though I don't agree. But I do not respect hypocrites.
Read my fairy tale webcomic, The Fox & The Firebird, at: http://www.fairytaletwisted.com
Bishop Cistone was on TV here talking about this part of the issue (guy's an even bigger blowhard than Carlson, looks like the tolerant soft spoken bishops like Untener and Reh are all dead now), and the issue is that their employees will have the option available at all. They don't care who's paying for it, it's bad enough they could still spend their own money on it. It doesn't matter who's option it is, no Catholic should have the option at all, and if it were up to them they'd get every employer in the Diocese on their side so they could deny this coverage to Christian employees. Of course, this is the same guy who was still talking about government death panels as recently as January.
I really, really hope this is just the local clueless sheep-in-shepherd's-clothes grossly misunderstanding his own religion as usual and not their actual argument, because if it is, it'll be pretty sad to watch this unfold in the news.
Wow, it's almost as if they believe they can stamp out sin entirely by making it inconvenient.
They could leave the church.
Don't be ludicrous.
Can't tell if serious or not.
Elldren is being serious, that's a ludicrous thing to say. I know that people forget how much religion means to some of us on this board, but it's still a thing for the vast majority of humanity.
Your Grace(s), the Church teaches that all humans are sinners, that we are essentially base creatures touched by the Grace of God. Surely it makes more sense to try and dampen the impact and consequence of sin (contraception, properly funded addict programs etc) than trying to stamp out sin entirely and have the sin that will inevitably continue to occur have a deeper impact?
I'm serious. What comes after "leave the church"? What is the second step that you are advocating? Schism?
It did work before. In the 50's and 60's, there was an immense exodus from the Saginaw diocese, mostly people converting to Lutheran. A couple bishops ignored it, but Reh saw it a as a sign that the church had ceased to be relevant to modern society, and because the entire point of Vatican II was to keep the church relevant, he MADE it relevant. Attendance exploded with his changes, and Untener took it farther - to the point that there were lay ministers in many parishes who were openly gay or in other various immoral living arrangements, and shortly before his death he and all the priests who he or Reh had appointed made a substantial public apology to the people that Christians were wronging in the state, and opposed the gay marriage ban (even though nearly all the members supported it). The very day he died the Cardinal called him wayward and liberal, and... well, it shouldn't be a surprise that since then all the membership growth that Reh and Untener generated over an entire generation evaporated in less than five years, and kept evaporating.
Most of the priests from those days are dead or forced into retirement, but nearly all the nuns serving are from that time. They've been some of the loudest opposition to church bullshit since Carlson came in. One the last times I actually showed my face, a nun confronted a priest in goddamn church over it. "We're sorry to see our beloved sisters retiring -" "We're not retiring, Carlson's eliminating our positions because we didn't share his hateful beliefs." "Yes, well... we'll miss them very... much."
No, just wait. Churches may ostensibly be non profit, but they still have to pay the bills, and they still play the business game. In the past, when the Catholic Church has seen an exodus of members, they (eventually) take action with updated practices and teachings. It's only a matter of time before it happens again, because people are leaving in unprecedented numbers, parishes are closing in unprecedented numbers, and entire diocese are heading towards bankruptcy, and the old fad of unbaptism is coming back, where simply leaving isn't considered enough but people are notifying their religious leaders that they have renounced their sacraments.
Well it could be argued that when people say 'sharia law' in the US political discourse, they're really referring to an amalgamation of Islamic doctrine, tribal customs, and national laws in certain Middle Eastern countries.
But that level of nuanced understanding is, of course, asking too much of someone who is really just trying to say "Fuck those arabs, am I right?!"
If "stop attending" is what is meant, I've long since done that.
edit: to clarify: being a bad Catholic involves not attending mass and not giving to collections and whatnot
When people say Sharia law in the US, they're usually thinking "HOLY TERRORISTS!" If people were more nuanced about it, they would realize that sharia is already illegal to the extent they want to make it illegal: just like all religious based law.
An additional law is unnecessary. Party of small government, right?
I'm Catholic. My family is Catholic.
You know what my mother said when she heard I had a girlfriend?:
"make sure you use protection and she's on the pill".
Now my mother is old. 60+. This is how far out of touch the Catholic church is with its parishioners.
The old lady who plays the organ in church doesn't agree with their views on birth control
That's pretty much all I meant. I'm not sure what else would matter, to the hierarchy anyway.
edit: Also I guess it would include not letting the church's positions dictate your vote, but that probably goes along with not attending as well.
I don't really consider not attending to be leaving the Church. I mean, unless someone decides to properly excommunicate me or something, but I'm nobody important so that's unlikely.
I was using "leaving the church" to colloquially mean "not support the institution." Since as you said, it's not a democracy, that's the only level of control the laity can have over the institution; if they lose enough members, they'll be forced to change.
By "losing members" I mean, if enough Catholics stop going to church, giving them money, and voting with the church. The Vatican can have a list of Catholics miles long if they want, but all they care about is how many of the people on that list are still giving them material support (i.e. audience, money, political support). If Catholics disagree with everything the Church is saying but still go to church and donate, the Church won't give a shit about what the person is actually thinking.
The Church does, though. One month a year (often October, since it's not artificially inflated by Christmas/Easter Catholics putting in their annual appearance and is generally mediocre weather - good weather and people would rather be outside, bad weather and they'd rather stay home entirely), each diocese has the ushers directly count the attendance in every parish, and uses that to determine membership, which in turn determines each parishes CSA requirement, obligation to the Vatican, and where they rank when it comes time to start closing churches from membership drops, etc.
This is basically sweeps week for the church, those ratings help determine the future of each parish for the rest of the season, second only to actual collections. Your specific absence may be overlooked, but you've still created a one head drop in their counts.
Where is the government telling the Catholic church how to handle birth control?
Seriously. Where?
Any sane person would see this is as stupid as hell. Insurance from your employer is a paid benefit of working there, your boss can not say you can't use your paycheck to buy liquor, porn, and fatty foods, but churches think they can say "But your health insurance that you get as a benefit from working here can not be used for something you want."
Whats next Jehova's Witness bosses denying blood transfusion coverage?
pleasepaypreacher.net
I can't speak for the other parties to the suit, but Notre Dame's problem is that, much like a number of very large companies, they're self-insured. There isn't an insurance company to be dealt with. For ND employees to have contraception available on our insurance plans would require Notre Dame themselves to offer contraception, because they are our insurer.
FWIW, this seems to be the core complaint in ND's suit:
Even in that its still dumb, because its the employer deciding what perfectly legal medical practices they cover vs what they do not and thats bullshit. Because health insurance is a monetary benefit to an employee and your boss should not get to decide what you spend your money on.
Much the same way JW's wouldn't get to outlaw blood transfusions, or a jewish employer couldn't say you can't buy pork with your salary.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I realize, obviously that slavery and birth control are totally separate issues, but this justification just seems to be so similar to me. It's basically looking at the world and saying "It's all about MEMEMEMEMEME!"
Just like any other college in the US who is self-insured would.
pleasepaypreacher.net
But obviously, telling companies they can't pull that shit on a federal level is a thorny issue in the US.
By thorny, I mean all you have to do to win someone over to the corporate side is mention "Free Enterprise".
Because obviously, if companies had such horrible, atrocious work conditions nobody would work there and they'd go bankrupt.
Free market.
I got a little excited when I saw your ship.