yeah, the mileage is worrisome, and probably why it's only 18k instead of 20k like most of other 2011 GTIs. Depends how it was put on there thought. My mom's partner had a '05 mustang that he put 150k miles on in 5 years because he used it for work and had to do a ton of driving around central florida. But it was kept up nicely and ran fine.
And that's interesting to hear about the DSG. From what I was reading, most people seem to think that it's one of the best automatics you can get.
I also agree with you on the fiesta/2. But for 14k nothing is really going to be that great.
I am biased against automatics in general, don't listen to me on that front. It's great for an automatic, shifts quick, efficient, etc etc. Personally I just think the dual clutch autos are very jittery and hyper at low speeds and it bothers me when I'm driving around in the city. Totally a personal malfunction, and an excuse to get a 6MT.
It is expensive to keep going though. I think @58k you're probably past the first huge outlay on that front though (I thought I read it was 50-55k, so maybe make sure that was done)?
I certainly have some questions for them tomorrow on that front. Need a carfax and maintenance records, and to check that it's actually a CPO car. Just saw VW.com seems to think it is, the dealership seems to disagree.
First DSG service is at 40k, pretty sure it's just a fluid change and visual inspection though.
@ronza ugh, I feel you on the lack of A/C thing, I bought my 240 around the same time (2006?) and I didn't have A/C until the tail end of 2011. About a month or so before the engine died.
I'm in SoCal so it's not as humid as Florida, but it was usually 100+ during the summers.
Mazda3 fun fact: you have to take the front doors off to get the dashboard out.
Honestly after some dashes I've worked on/under, taking the doors off doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.
It's not as bad as it sounds, just weird. The dash itself is pretty easy. Try an Expedition, I just had to do the heater blend door for one. $30 part with something like 11 hours labor.
0
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
edited November 2012
My brother tried to do a stereo install in an expedition. It was the car that made him decide not to pursue that career path. He was pretty good too, better than the big box installers, still not pro tho.
Mazda3 fun fact: you have to take the front doors off to get the dashboard out.
Honestly after some dashes I've worked on/under, taking the doors off doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.
It's not as bad as it sounds, just weird. The dash itself is pretty easy. Try an Expedition, I just had to do the heater blend door for one. $30 part with something like 11 hours labor.
Mazda3 fun fact: you have to take the front doors off to get the dashboard out.
Honestly after some dashes I've worked on/under, taking the doors off doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.
It's not as bad as it sounds, just weird. The dash itself is pretty easy. Try an Expedition, I just had to do the heater blend door for one. $30 part with something like 11 hours labor.
Wow, that's Stratus Battery levels of dumb.
The blend door is a trick to get at on most cars, I think.
0
Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
"Reliability" and VW rarely exist in the same area code.
It's a certified pre-owned, so there is a 2yr/24k warranty
and I would like something fun to drive, so I don't think I'll be looking at a Prius.
There is no car, made within the last 5 years, that I would declare more reliable than that VW.
Not really as a testament to how awesome VW is, but to how for the entire industry has come. (with a few exceptions).
Bottom line is, no matter what you get, out will have a few issues. Protecting yourself with a warranty is the best thing, next is keeping up on maintenance.
And screw the Prius, call it placebo car from now on.
Prius is good car!
Comfy as shit to drive, better fuel economy than just about anything else that doesn't come with significant drawbacks that's available in the US, safe, solid reliability, and at least in my area there's a wealth of aftermarket batteries available from low miles wrecks.
It's not a spirited drive, but that's what the FRS me and my girlfriend are planning to get after she makes some money programming is for.
I hate them, though i won't call them garbage, they are fairly reliable (but i have had a few off my customers seel theirs at the 120kish mark, a variety of problems cropped up on one, another lost it's abs pump, quite expensive repair.) But because the premium to purchase takes years to work off in gas savings, depending on driving habits.
Hence placebo car. I'm saving money on gas, because i paid more for my car! I'm saving the planet, except it's not really helping at all if ou consider rare metals and battery disposal. And petro chemical investments in manufacture.
So, better to buy a simple, lightweight, efficient, USED vehicle, for the earth conscious, and just an econobox for those who want to save money.
Used Prius though? Wasn't any worse than a TDI with similar miles and age. Probably more reliable than a turbo-diesel.
I used to take your stance because of the rare earth metals but we're screwed at our current rate of consumption with or without hybrids. Need for rare earth metals and recycling programs largely negates the disposal problem. Either way buying used I am basically guilt free for resource cost, especially if I replace the battery with a used one when it needs it as well.
"Reliability" and VW rarely exist in the same area code.
It's a certified pre-owned, so there is a 2yr/24k warranty
and I would like something fun to drive, so I don't think I'll be looking at a Prius.
There is no car, made within the last 5 years, that I would declare more reliable than that VW.
Not really as a testament to how awesome VW is, but to how for the entire industry has come. (with a few exceptions).
Bottom line is, no matter what you get, out will have a few issues. Protecting yourself with a warranty is the best thing, next is keeping up on maintenance.
And screw the Prius, call it placebo car from now on.
Prius is good car!
Comfy as shit to drive, better fuel economy than just about anything else that doesn't come with significant drawbacks that's available in the US, safe, solid reliability, and at least in my area there's a wealth of aftermarket batteries available from low miles wrecks.
It's not a spirited drive, but that's what the FRS me and my girlfriend are planning to get after she makes some money programming is for.
I hate them, though i won't call them garbage, they are fairly reliable (but i have had a few off my customers seel theirs at the 120kish mark, a variety of problems cropped up on one, another lost it's abs pump, quite expensive repair.) But because the premium to purchase takes years to work off in gas savings, depending on driving habits.
Hence placebo car. I'm saving money on gas, because i paid more for my car! I'm saving the planet, except it's not really helping at all if ou consider rare metals and battery disposal. And petro chemical investments in manufacture.
So, better to buy a simple, lightweight, efficient, USED vehicle, for the earth conscious, and just an econobox for those who want to save money.
Used Prius though? Wasn't any worse than a TDI with similar miles and age. Probably more reliable than a turbo-diesel.
I used to take your stance because of the rare earth metals but we're screwed at our current rate of consumption with or without hybrids. Need for rare earth metals and recycling programs largely negates the disposal problem. Either way buying used I am basically guilt free for resource cost, especially if I replace the battery with a used one when it needs it as well.
Yes, buying used is the best recycling. I am a strong conservationist, though, and I think the Prius and cars like it work to muddle the real concerns for basically all automotive/transportation concerns/oil/gas. Mostly it, and other alternative fueled cars, are a soft little doll the world can curl up with, feeling that their current infrastructure and the personal vehicle are sustainable ideas. They aren't. The sooner we move to mass transit, REAL mass transit and the related infrastructure, the better. I will even claim that if we don't move in that direction, and quickly, we will be facing a huge problem in short order.
I can find you a better car than the Prius in any price range you choose option for option. It will be more reliable, the Prius is fine, but it is saddled with extra systems, and that means things breaking. By virtue of the Diesel, it is more reliable than most anything out there, diesels are pretty tough nowadays. I will get you in a more fun car to drive too. And it'll cost less to maintain and repair, as the parts will be everywhere. (it'll be a 99-00 Civic HX w/manual trans Hello 50mpg highway in a $5k car that will run forever. )
Mazda3 fun fact: you have to take the front doors off to get the dashboard out.
Honestly after some dashes I've worked on/under, taking the doors off doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.
It's not as bad as it sounds, just weird. The dash itself is pretty easy. Try an Expedition, I just had to do the heater blend door for one. $30 part with something like 11 hours labor.
Wow, that's Stratus Battery levels of dumb.
The blend door is a trick to get at on most cars, I think.
Yeah, you're gonna have to pull the dash. But I've pulled dashes on Mercury Milan, Jeep Wranglers, Mazda3...I could probably do all 3 in the time it takes the Expedition. Those things need to be rounded up and melted.
So, I have been driving this for the last 7 years (not my exact car but mine is a V6 as well):
Somehow, despite me basically just not caring about it at all beyond fixing catastrophic issues and the occasional tires/brake, it has stayed running.
With no AC since late 2007.
In Central Florida.
Yeah
I have gotten a new job that is taking me to Charleston, SC, and therefore probably need a new car. I posted a bit ago about maybe getting a mr2 spyder, but family and friends have partly convinced me to get something newer/more reliable.
So what I've found locally is a 2011 VW GTI 4-Door DSG with 58k miles for 18k. Does this seem like a good deal? I have a test drive with it tomorrow to see how I feel sitting and driving in it. The price of this is basically as high as I feel comfortable going right now. If this doesn't work out I'll probably end up with something like a Ford Fiesta or Mazda2
Geeze, 58k on a 2011? Also, I don't like the VW DSG, it's expensive to maintain and is a herky jerky mess in normal driving compared to the manual (imo).
I have a 2011 Golf TDI 6MT though, and it's really fun to drive, so I imagine the GTI would only be more fun.
From my perspective though, I thought the Fiesta and the Mazda2 felt cheap and uncomfortable compared to the VW.
I drove a 2007 GTI with DSG for years and never thought it was a "herky jerky mess." In regular drive mode it's very smooth; shifts were almost imperceptible. In sport mode and manual mode yeah, it shifts harder, but why would you be in either of those modes in normal driving? 58k does seem like a lot for a 2011 though. When I traded my 2007 in late June of this year, it had 61k miles.
The GTI is a great car though, and I personally love the DSG; see if you can get the seller down to $14k or $15k. Yeah, the car is only one model year old, but it has high mileage, which means it was probably one of the first 2011s sold some time in mid-2010. I'd say it's at least a two year old car, but they're trying to sell it as a one year old car. Also, what other options does it have? Leather/nav/Xenon/moonroof? If it's completely loaded, it was about a $30k car brand new, so $18k might not be horrible, but it's still high for that mileage.
0
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
edited November 2012
So it looks like Audi is releasing some of their diesels over here.
So it looks like Audi is releasing some of their diesels over here.
That's awesome. Did you guys happen to the Audi bicycle concept over on reddit? It looks like they are trying to make the most uncomfortable bike seat ever.
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
So it looks like Audi is releasing some of their diesels over here.
That's awesome. Did you guys happen to the Audi bicycle concept over on reddit? It looks like they are trying to make the most uncomfortable bike seat ever.
Why did they replace the seat with a screwdriver? Seems like a poor choice there.
Every so often a car company decides to make a concept bicycle.
They are invariably awful. There was also that Factor 001 which was actually offered for sale but turned out to be a astonishingly expensive way to buy an unusually heavy custom fit carbon frame with an integrated datalogging system that captured less useful data than an off-the-shelf SRM or Garmin system. They also scrupulously avoided making any claims about its aero performance, which is always suspicious.
They also scrupulously avoided making any claims about its aero performance, which is always suspicious.
I didn't realize that aerodynamics was a big thing in bike making. I know people basically draft each other in bike races, but I figure the giant person sized human thing would cause MUCH more drag than the bike itself.
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
0
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
They also scrupulously avoided making any claims about its aero performance, which is always suspicious.
I didn't realize that aerodynamics was a big thing in bike making. I know people basically draft each other in bike races, but I figure the giant person sized human thing would cause MUCH more drag than the bike itself.
My understanding is when hunkered down with the correct style helmet a person can be fairly aerodynamic, but if a bike is designed poorly it can generate all kinds of inefficiencies with its frame. You see a lot of fancier bikes that have wing shaped front forks instead of the traditional cylindrical style, etc. I know besides weight that spokes can cause drag as well. At least thats what my bike racing buddy told me. :P
They also scrupulously avoided making any claims about its aero performance, which is always suspicious.
I didn't realize that aerodynamics was a big thing in bike making. I know people basically draft each other in bike races, but I figure the giant person sized human thing would cause MUCH more drag than the bike itself.
My understanding is when hunkered down with the correct style helmet a person can be fairly aerodynamic, but if a bike is designed poorly it can generate all kinds of inefficiencies with its frame. You see a lot of fancier bikes that have wing shaped front forks instead of the traditional cylindrical style, etc. I know besides weight that spokes can cause drag as well. At least thats what my bike racing buddy told me. :P
blah blah blah but I need this $2500 bike! :P
I dont know a whole lot about cycling, but all that shit is important.
They also scrupulously avoided making any claims about its aero performance, which is always suspicious.
I didn't realize that aerodynamics was a big thing in bike making. I know people basically draft each other in bike races, but I figure the giant person sized human thing would cause MUCH more drag than the bike itself.
Once you're travelling at 15mph+ (which is a level of effort basically equivalent to a brisk walk) about 80% of your power output is going into overcoming air resistance, and the proportion gets higher as your speed increases. Once you're travelling at racing pace (25-30mph+) you can effectively ignore everything except air resistance.
In time trialling and triathlon (where you don't get a peloton and can't draft) aero is everything, so most of the development money gets poured into wind tunnel time and you end up with things like this. There's a growing trend for road racing bikes, which haven't traditionally been very aero-focused, to use some of the tech from time trial bikes. If I had two grand to drop on a new bike right now, I'd go for one of these, which Canyon bill as their "breakaway bike", intended for riders that will launch themselves out of the pack solo late in a stage, and so need every advantage they can get to build and hold a gap.
Yup. I'm hoping to pick up a low miles Mazda 3 skyactiv come February. Great gas mileage, should have those fun to drive mazda characterisitcs and hopefully I won't have to take a depreciation hit.
You can get a brand new 2012 for several thousand under invoice (according to Truecar, anyway). I'm not sure the used prices are going to be much better than that for an 18-month old car.
0
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Yup. I'm hoping to pick up a low miles Mazda 3 skyactiv come February. Great gas mileage, should have those fun to drive mazda characterisitcs and hopefully I won't have to take a depreciation hit.
You can get a brand new 2012 for several thousand under invoice (according to Truecar, anyway). I'm not sure the used prices are going to be much better than that for an 18-month old car.
Well if its already a few under invoice then I should be Ok. Will have to scour the dealers in state to see where the best deal is.
Thought some of you might find this amusing. Here is an update.
I hit a curb on Thanksgiving. The Vette is currently not able to be driven.
I was making a left hand turn, was traveling about 10 MPH, and stepped on the gas too hard. The wheels spun, kicked the back end around, and did a 180 up onto a curb.
Damage to the body was minimal, however, since the car is extremely low to the ground, the skid plate was pushed up and damaged the radiator.
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Hey the car thread is back! So when replacing my headlight switch in my jeep (for the 2nd time this year) I apparently generated a short somewhere and now my running lights don't work! Woohoo! Guess who gets to trace wiring tomorrow and see what I fucked up.
Note: I have checked the fuses, and also have checked a couple places where shorts apparently appear. No luck. I'm thinking either something in the headlight harness itself or some wires that surround it, as its a bit of a wiggle to get loose.
Buying a compact sports car(likely tomorrow) and I have it narrowed down to two choices, a 2013 Focus ST3 or a 2013 GTI Autobahn. Throughout this thread I've read a few gripes about VW electrical systems/reliability. Was wondering, is a Focus any better or do they have their own set of issues? I can't choose between the two on features/finish/appeal alone so have to look at maintenance/reliability to be the deciding factor. Would definitely appreciate your thoughts!
I'd go for the Focus, but mostly because it's a more rewarding, visceral driving experience. Then again, I have a modded 2004 Mitsu Lancer Ralliart, my dad has a modded-to-hell EVO IX and my brother is picking up an EVO X on Tuesday, so it's clear that I come from a family of complete fucking lunatics.
I don't have much basis for this but I would also go with the focus over a VW. A few of my coworkers have VWs and they seem to break pretty frequently compared to everything else.
Anecdotes, YAY!
CommunistCow on
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
Thanks to those that replied on short notice. Scouring the intarwebs revealed an issue with the fitting of the rear lights on some models(easy fix), other than that Focus looks to be the more reliable car. Now I get to look forward to 6 hours of refusing undercoating and other crap, woo!
Bnet tag: Nermals#11601
0
TehSlothHit Or MissI Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered Userregular
Thanks to those that replied on short notice. Scouring the intarwebs revealed an issue with the fitting of the rear lights on some models(easy fix), other than that Focus looks to be the more reliable car. Now I get to look forward to 6 hours of refusing undercoating and other crap, woo!
I have an 08 which is pretty different from the recent models but I've been pretty happy with it. There was an issue with the endlinks on those models but I got that sorted out from the dealership, the tires mine came with were also exceptionally awful but I'm pretty sure they weren't stock (it was pre-owned, but came with non-stock rims and different sized front and rear tires which I'm pretty sure isn't standard for the focus)
Thought some of you might find this amusing. Here is an update.
I hit a curb on Thanksgiving. The Vette is currently not able to be driven.
I was making a left hand turn, was traveling about 10 MPH, and stepped on the gas too hard. The wheels spun, kicked the back end around, and did a 180 up onto a curb.
Damage to the body was minimal, however, since the car is extremely low to the ground, the skid plate was pushed up and damaged the radiator.
this is why you do not goose the throttle while turning in a rear wheel drive car with the traction control off.
+1
JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I'm pretty sure I made myself incredibly clear the last time you posted in this thread
I like how my VW handles, but mine is a Golf TDI, so much lower market segment than a GTI Autobahn. I liked it better in pretty much all aspects than the equivalent Focus, but said Focus is also in a much lower market segment
Posts
First DSG service is at 40k, pretty sure it's just a fluid change and visual inspection though.
I'm in SoCal so it's not as humid as Florida, but it was usually 100+ during the summers.
Honestly after some dashes I've worked on/under, taking the doors off doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
It's not as bad as it sounds, just weird. The dash itself is pretty easy. Try an Expedition, I just had to do the heater blend door for one. $30 part with something like 11 hours labor.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Wow, that's Stratus Battery levels of dumb.
The blend door is a trick to get at on most cars, I think.
Used Prius though? Wasn't any worse than a TDI with similar miles and age. Probably more reliable than a turbo-diesel.
I used to take your stance because of the rare earth metals but we're screwed at our current rate of consumption with or without hybrids. Need for rare earth metals and recycling programs largely negates the disposal problem. Either way buying used I am basically guilt free for resource cost, especially if I replace the battery with a used one when it needs it as well.
Yes, buying used is the best recycling. I am a strong conservationist, though, and I think the Prius and cars like it work to muddle the real concerns for basically all automotive/transportation concerns/oil/gas. Mostly it, and other alternative fueled cars, are a soft little doll the world can curl up with, feeling that their current infrastructure and the personal vehicle are sustainable ideas. They aren't. The sooner we move to mass transit, REAL mass transit and the related infrastructure, the better. I will even claim that if we don't move in that direction, and quickly, we will be facing a huge problem in short order.
I can find you a better car than the Prius in any price range you choose option for option. It will be more reliable, the Prius is fine, but it is saddled with extra systems, and that means things breaking. By virtue of the Diesel, it is more reliable than most anything out there, diesels are pretty tough nowadays. I will get you in a more fun car to drive too. And it'll cost less to maintain and repair, as the parts will be everywhere. (it'll be a 99-00 Civic HX w/manual trans Hello 50mpg highway in a $5k car that will run forever.
Yeah, you're gonna have to pull the dash. But I've pulled dashes on Mercury Milan, Jeep Wranglers, Mazda3...I could probably do all 3 in the time it takes the Expedition. Those things need to be rounded up and melted.
I drove a 2007 GTI with DSG for years and never thought it was a "herky jerky mess." In regular drive mode it's very smooth; shifts were almost imperceptible. In sport mode and manual mode yeah, it shifts harder, but why would you be in either of those modes in normal driving? 58k does seem like a lot for a 2011 though. When I traded my 2007 in late June of this year, it had 61k miles.
The GTI is a great car though, and I personally love the DSG; see if you can get the seller down to $14k or $15k. Yeah, the car is only one model year old, but it has high mileage, which means it was probably one of the first 2011s sold some time in mid-2010. I'd say it's at least a two year old car, but they're trying to sell it as a one year old car. Also, what other options does it have? Leather/nav/Xenon/moonroof? If it's completely loaded, it was about a $30k car brand new, so $18k might not be horrible, but it's still high for that mileage.
That's awesome. Did you guys happen to the Audi bicycle concept over on reddit? It looks like they are trying to make the most uncomfortable bike seat ever.
Why did they replace the seat with a screwdriver? Seems like a poor choice there.
They are invariably awful. There was also that Factor 001 which was actually offered for sale but turned out to be a astonishingly expensive way to buy an unusually heavy custom fit carbon frame with an integrated datalogging system that captured less useful data than an off-the-shelf SRM or Garmin system. They also scrupulously avoided making any claims about its aero performance, which is always suspicious.
I didn't realize that aerodynamics was a big thing in bike making. I know people basically draft each other in bike races, but I figure the giant person sized human thing would cause MUCH more drag than the bike itself.
My understanding is when hunkered down with the correct style helmet a person can be fairly aerodynamic, but if a bike is designed poorly it can generate all kinds of inefficiencies with its frame. You see a lot of fancier bikes that have wing shaped front forks instead of the traditional cylindrical style, etc. I know besides weight that spokes can cause drag as well. At least thats what my bike racing buddy told me. :P
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
blah blah blah but I need this $2500 bike! :P
Once you're travelling at 15mph+ (which is a level of effort basically equivalent to a brisk walk) about 80% of your power output is going into overcoming air resistance, and the proportion gets higher as your speed increases. Once you're travelling at racing pace (25-30mph+) you can effectively ignore everything except air resistance.
In time trialling and triathlon (where you don't get a peloton and can't draft) aero is everything, so most of the development money gets poured into wind tunnel time and you end up with things like this. There's a growing trend for road racing bikes, which haven't traditionally been very aero-focused, to use some of the tech from time trial bikes. If I had two grand to drop on a new bike right now, I'd go for one of these, which Canyon bill as their "breakaway bike", intended for riders that will launch themselves out of the pack solo late in a stage, and so need every advantage they can get to build and hold a gap.
You can get a brand new 2012 for several thousand under invoice (according to Truecar, anyway). I'm not sure the used prices are going to be much better than that for an 18-month old car.
Well if its already a few under invoice then I should be Ok. Will have to scour the dealers in state to see where the best deal is.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Thought some of you might find this amusing. Here is an update.
I hit a curb on Thanksgiving. The Vette is currently not able to be driven.
I was making a left hand turn, was traveling about 10 MPH, and stepped on the gas too hard. The wheels spun, kicked the back end around, and did a 180 up onto a curb.
Damage to the body was minimal, however, since the car is extremely low to the ground, the skid plate was pushed up and damaged the radiator.
Ah well, a man can dream.
Note: I have checked the fuses, and also have checked a couple places where shorts apparently appear. No luck. I'm thinking either something in the headlight harness itself or some wires that surround it, as its a bit of a wiggle to get loose.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Buying a compact sports car(likely tomorrow) and I have it narrowed down to two choices, a 2013 Focus ST3 or a 2013 GTI Autobahn. Throughout this thread I've read a few gripes about VW electrical systems/reliability. Was wondering, is a Focus any better or do they have their own set of issues? I can't choose between the two on features/finish/appeal alone so have to look at maintenance/reliability to be the deciding factor. Would definitely appreciate your thoughts!
Bnet tag: Nermals#11601
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
Bnet tag: Nermals#11601
Anecdotes, YAY!
Bnet tag: Nermals#11601
I have an 08 which is pretty different from the recent models but I've been pretty happy with it. There was an issue with the endlinks on those models but I got that sorted out from the dealership, the tires mine came with were also exceptionally awful but I'm pretty sure they weren't stock (it was pre-owned, but came with non-stock rims and different sized front and rear tires which I'm pretty sure isn't standard for the focus)
twitch.tv/tehsloth
I didn't like the transmission, engine, interior...etc.
Just not a fan of VW design. I'd buy an old bug or bus, but none of their new cars.
this is why you do not goose the throttle while turning in a rear wheel drive car with the traction control off.
Robot Santa, kick @Slider from the thread