Man whatever did happen to pure support classes? I love playing them, but I guess the Holy Trinity is the path of least resistance for developers.
The weird thing for me, having started in EQ1 is that the holy trinity in that game was Tank, Heals, and Crowd Control. There were dps classes, but they weren't part of the required set of classes for most content.
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
Yeah I suppose that was true. For the most part it was everyone's job to DPS on top of their other commitments.
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Designers moved away from Support classes because they're difficult to balance around, being force multipliers. Doesn't help that players are hypersensitive to perceived imbalance, as well.
H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited January 2017
I think not having the gear grind was like 90% of why other players were on average much more pleasant in CoH. The big things that really motivated people to keep playing the game were making characters & sharing them with others (including checking out what others came up with), and all the crazy shit the powersets let us do. All of which was accessible on creation or merely as part of the 1-50 levelling process. There was no progression curve for people to stress out about, even though it had all the elements for it after a few years. People just weren't invested in that.
And man, CoH was not afraid to hang their ass over the ragged edge of what could be achieved in a game engine to let you actually feel super-powered. Like, how few games give us that kind of flight? They're all so worried about invisible walls and skyboxes and CoH proved that players just wanted to fly. It was okay that game engine limitations constrain the upper limits, the freedom was exhilirating. Force Fields & storm summoning could do crazy things ragdolling enemies. Teleportation was fun just for the tricky things you could do with corner-pulling via teleport foe. One of my favorite memories was from when I was still learning the ropes as a dark/dark/tp defender in a groupd that had almost entirely wiped, figuring out that with the help of a teammate who also had TP we could pull an enemy from far away, I could leach from them to rez everyone and the group would be ready to fight by time the rest of the spawn reached us.
I think my main asks for a new superhero mmo would be
arcade-y, dynamic action with lots of physics based play (no auto-attack, etc)
freedom of movement via travel powers
diverse character generation both in terms of appearance and capabilities; devs should focus on breadth before depth (costumes/bodies for different character concepts and a variety of Archetype-level playstyle options, then adding different costume pieces & skins for a given theme or increasing powerset options per AT).
some kind of MMO hub-based game with instanced mission areas that could support offline single-player (and ideally LAN). Basically like what Grunt's Ghosts was saying on the previous page. Sorta Diablo meets Division meets Destiny. Bonus is the game doesn't entirely disappear when the servers get shut down.
I'd add that I'd want a gameplay that allows you to interact (where a group is more than the sum of its parts) but definitely outside the "holy trinity". The whole Tank/damage/heals dynamic has been done to death:
I really liked the dynamic in CoV where the system really encouraged you to split-aggro with each member of the team taking on as many enemies as he felt he could handle.
Teams that thought along "trinity" lines tended to have their dominators/stalkers/Brutes die on them a lot because people were "He tank! I damage! Focus damage!" and then when the CC powers wore off the tank/dominator got murderized....or the stalker did because he dealt the most damage and then the entire team collapsed.
If you instead made sure that you had as many enemies on you as you could handle things got a lot better. Brutes were pretty good at handling aggro, a brute could usually handle about a 30-60% of an enemy group for a short period of time (depending on powers and Corruptor support) while the other classes were more comfortable dealing with 1-2 enemies.
Exactly how you dealt with mobs really depended on your group dynamic, but the basic plan was always to shatter the enemy group to prevent enemy alphastrikes and then make sure that where wasn't any loose aggro floating around as everyone took up as much of it as possible (with the brute prefering "a lot of it").
Sometimes it required a fairly elaborate plan to make sure that noone got alphastriked or swamped. Sometimes it was more "Brute 1 takes the guys on the right, Brute 2 goes left. SMASH FOR INJUSTICE!".
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
It never ceases to amaze me that this thread keeps going. I wish this game was still around.
I miss my Dark/Dark corruptor.
Several projects were going on to basically revive this game but is there a game studio out there working on something similar that is more up to date?
It's a fan made project, made from love, funded by fans. I don't expect AAA graphics, engines, or even voice acting. What I expect is something that is clunky, but fills my need for superhero games until someone from the AAA gaming industry decides to make one and then kills it with micro-transactions, premium currency, and whatever else the kids are into now days.
If this was being made by some big studio like Blizzard, EA, or Ubisoft, I'd be bitching like a mofo about how shit it looks. But this... this isn't the worst thing I've seen from the indie gaming scene that's been Kickstarted.
I guess we are different people. Sure, I don't care much about cape physics in games, you'll never get them right, but I like that they are trying to get the little touches right. And really, if they want to spend time getting cape physics right, then image what they are also trying to get right. Honestly, I stay hopeful about this project more than VO because you can see the progress they are making.
And like I said, there doesn't seem to be any interest in the AAA gaming industry to do another CoX game or even a superhero game that isn't Marvel or DC, so for now, I'll take what I can get.
I mean, not for nothing, but CoX wasn't exactly a graphical masterpiece, even for the time it was released, but it was plenty enjoyable all the same. (edit: at launch and during the year I played, I respect that they improved things in time)
I'll take playable and fun and great use of physics like that game did over grit so perfectly realistic I need to take a shower after playing for more than 5 minutes.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Remember when Ultra Mode came out, where the environments looked fantastic until you realized that all the character models still looked just as awful as ever?
it's cool that they're making something, even if it seems like the final product is more likely to be an interactive/collaborative modelviewer than anything else
honestly I'm not sure what their supporters' expectations are; most big-budget MMOs haven't done particularly well nevermind some oddball enthusiast sideproject, but if the internet has taught me anything it's that most people's are probably too high
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I keep hope because it's better than anything else we got going on now. I've come to respect that they and even VO are taking such huge risks to make their games, and keep my fingers cross that that the games come, they are good enough to play and enjoy, and that they get a chance to grow. I keep a realistic view that CoT and VO might not the the prettiest games to come out, that they might be on par with what CoH was when it first came out, but for now they give us something important.
A big concern in developing big projects is that distractions break schedules and eventually lead to giving up or postponing indefinitely.
How big of a team are they working with? A bigger studio can get away with working on cape physics rather than fleshing out more meaningful systems. A small team, not so much. Especially considering the time already invested.
I don't have much hope for these projects to turn up anything worthwhile. Sure, I'd like them to and I'll give them a shot if and when they are reaching final development... but the reality is that CoX is dead. These games will have to stand alone and so far I am just not convinced.
I have to say, though, that for his claims of looking at CoH sans nostalgia goggles... not really. Especially when he talks up the player community, about 20 minutes in. We had our bright spots and helpful people, certainly, but I'd hesitate to suggest we were significantly above the average; we definitely weren't all saints.
Speaking for the Guardian community. Yeah. Not all saints....but holy hell did the CoH community beat any other MMO community I've been in.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Speaking for the Guardian community. Yeah. Not all saints....but holy hell did the CoH community beat any other MMO community I've been in.
Shout out to the Taxi Bots. This is the only MMO I've played where people made characters just to stand around and help other characters move around the game.
Granted, I've not played a huge number of MMOs, but...
All the idiotic elements of CoX were quarantined to the official forums, desperately trying to convince themselves Defenders were good.
Defenders were awesome (barring some Trials pretty much every taskforce had been completed by pure Defender teams. The same can not be said for any other hero class).
Some might say "But controllers had all of their powers AND control sets". Sure, but primary powersets were stronger and available sooner.
Vs anything that was resistant towards control (Archvillains, Elite bosses...fucking goddamn Master Illusionists) defenders blew them out of the water.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Speaking for the Guardian community. Yeah. Not all saints....but holy hell did the CoH community beat any other MMO community I've been in.
Shout out to the Taxi Bots. This is the only MMO I've played where people made characters just to stand around and help other characters move around the game.
Granted, I've not played a huge number of MMOs, but...
My character wasn't made for that express purpose, but in the early days of Everquest I would use my druid to give people buffs to make their run speed faster (useful for getting places AND escaping monsters) and also teleport whole groups of people to wherever they wanted. I'd take donations but they weren't required, anyone could get a ride for free.
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
All the idiotic elements of CoX were quarantined to the official forums, desperately trying to convince themselves Defenders were good.
Defenders were awesome (barring some Trials pretty much every taskforce had been completed by pure Defender teams. The same can not be said for any other hero class).
Some might say "But controllers had all of their powers AND control sets". Sure, but primary powersets were stronger and available sooner.
Vs anything that was resistant towards control (Archvillains, Elite bosses...fucking goddamn Master Illusionists) defenders blew them out of the water.
...this isn't the official CoX forums. What the hell?
(Corrupters were better. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SCOURGE PASSIVE.)
All the idiotic elements of CoX were quarantined to the official forums, desperately trying to convince themselves Defenders were good.
Defenders were awesome (barring some Trials pretty much every taskforce had been completed by pure Defender teams. The same can not be said for any other hero class).
Some might say "But controllers had all of their powers AND control sets". Sure, but primary powersets were stronger and available sooner.
Vs anything that was resistant towards control (Archvillains, Elite bosses...fucking goddamn Master Illusionists) defenders blew them out of the water.
...this isn't the official CoX forums. What the hell?
(Corrupters were better. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SCOURGE PASSIVE.)
Sure, but I think we all need to acknowledge that MasterMinds are, and will forever be, the best class in anything, ever.
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Dr. ChaosPost nuclear nuisanceRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
Most depressing thread title ever.
I really missed the boat on COH. It was before I started getting into mmos and now that I am, I really find myself jonesing for a good superhero themed one and there really doesn't seem to be anything that has successfully filled the gap it left.
The good thing about CoX was it didn't really fucking matter if Defenders weren't 100% the bees knees because no one had mods spitting damage numbers at them 24/7.
I think there was, like, one, but it was deliberately obtuse to use.
And none of the content was designed around needing to play super optimally, anyway. It was much more fun to watch fifty hellions clown-car their way into a dumpster after a fire tank than worry about that shit.
All the idiotic elements of CoX were quarantined to the official forums, desperately trying to convince themselves Defenders were good.
Defenders were awesome (barring some Trials pretty much every taskforce had been completed by pure Defender teams. The same can not be said for any other hero class).
Some might say "But controllers had all of their powers AND control sets". Sure, but primary powersets were stronger and available sooner.
Vs anything that was resistant towards control (Archvillains, Elite bosses...fucking goddamn Master Illusionists) defenders blew them out of the water.
...this isn't the official CoX forums. What the hell?
(Corrupters were better. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SCOURGE PASSIVE.)
Sure, but I think we all need to acknowledge that MasterMinds are, and will forever be, the best class in anything, ever.
I'm a Pet Class kind of guy, and I have yet to find a class in any game that does the pet/support archetype nearly as well as Masterminds did.
I guess STO's ground combat with bridge officers can provide a bit of that same feel, but it's really not the same.
If you weren't rolling a Brute, then you were just on the team to pad my spawns. Until they let me just set it to x8/+4, at which point you were invited to the team purely as a spectator.
(All ATs were rad, respect for everyone)
Realizing lately that I don't really trust or respect basically any of the moderators here. So, good luck with life, friends! Hit me up on Twitter @DesertLeviathan
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Dr. ChaosPost nuclear nuisanceRegistered Userregular
I kind of want to try Champions Online but seems like a game thats going to keel over any minute.
Posts
I thought about putting in my new computer, just for the feels...
The weird thing for me, having started in EQ1 is that the holy trinity in that game was Tank, Heals, and Crowd Control. There were dps classes, but they weren't part of the required set of classes for most content.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
And man, CoH was not afraid to hang their ass over the ragged edge of what could be achieved in a game engine to let you actually feel super-powered. Like, how few games give us that kind of flight? They're all so worried about invisible walls and skyboxes and CoH proved that players just wanted to fly. It was okay that game engine limitations constrain the upper limits, the freedom was exhilirating. Force Fields & storm summoning could do crazy things ragdolling enemies. Teleportation was fun just for the tricky things you could do with corner-pulling via teleport foe. One of my favorite memories was from when I was still learning the ropes as a dark/dark/tp defender in a groupd that had almost entirely wiped, figuring out that with the help of a teammate who also had TP we could pull an enemy from far away, I could leach from them to rez everyone and the group would be ready to fight by time the rest of the spawn reached us.
I think my main asks for a new superhero mmo would be
I really liked the dynamic in CoV where the system really encouraged you to split-aggro with each member of the team taking on as many enemies as he felt he could handle.
Teams that thought along "trinity" lines tended to have their dominators/stalkers/Brutes die on them a lot because people were "He tank! I damage! Focus damage!" and then when the CC powers wore off the tank/dominator got murderized....or the stalker did because he dealt the most damage and then the entire team collapsed.
If you instead made sure that you had as many enemies on you as you could handle things got a lot better. Brutes were pretty good at handling aggro, a brute could usually handle about a 30-60% of an enemy group for a short period of time (depending on powers and Corruptor support) while the other classes were more comfortable dealing with 1-2 enemies.
Exactly how you dealt with mobs really depended on your group dynamic, but the basic plan was always to shatter the enemy group to prevent enemy alphastrikes and then make sure that where wasn't any loose aggro floating around as everyone took up as much of it as possible (with the brute prefering "a lot of it").
Sometimes it required a fairly elaborate plan to make sure that noone got alphastriked or swamped. Sometimes it was more "Brute 1 takes the guys on the right, Brute 2 goes left. SMASH FOR INJUSTICE!".
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
I miss my Dark/Dark corruptor.
Several projects were going on to basically revive this game but is there a game studio out there working on something similar that is more up to date?
Looks like they are going for a 2018 release date.
Better would be nice, too.
If this was being made by some big studio like Blizzard, EA, or Ubisoft, I'd be bitching like a mofo about how shit it looks. But this... this isn't the worst thing I've seen from the indie gaming scene that's been Kickstarted.
And like I said, there doesn't seem to be any interest in the AAA gaming industry to do another CoX game or even a superhero game that isn't Marvel or DC, so for now, I'll take what I can get.
I'll take playable and fun and great use of physics like that game did over grit so perfectly realistic I need to take a shower after playing for more than 5 minutes.
honestly I'm not sure what their supporters' expectations are; most big-budget MMOs haven't done particularly well nevermind some oddball enthusiast sideproject, but if the internet has taught me anything it's that most people's are probably too high
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Hope.
How big of a team are they working with? A bigger studio can get away with working on cape physics rather than fleshing out more meaningful systems. A small team, not so much. Especially considering the time already invested.
I don't have much hope for these projects to turn up anything worthwhile. Sure, I'd like them to and I'll give them a shot if and when they are reaching final development... but the reality is that CoX is dead. These games will have to stand alone and so far I am just not convinced.
Bless them for trying though.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
It's okay buddy. Bring it in, bring it in.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Shout out to the Taxi Bots. This is the only MMO I've played where people made characters just to stand around and help other characters move around the game.
Granted, I've not played a huge number of MMOs, but...
Defenders were awesome (barring some Trials pretty much every taskforce had been completed by pure Defender teams. The same can not be said for any other hero class).
Some might say "But controllers had all of their powers AND control sets". Sure, but primary powersets were stronger and available sooner.
Vs anything that was resistant towards control (Archvillains, Elite bosses...fucking goddamn Master Illusionists) defenders blew them out of the water.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
My character wasn't made for that express purpose, but in the early days of Everquest I would use my druid to give people buffs to make their run speed faster (useful for getting places AND escaping monsters) and also teleport whole groups of people to wherever they wanted. I'd take donations but they weren't required, anyone could get a ride for free.
...this isn't the official CoX forums. What the hell?
(Corrupters were better. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SCOURGE PASSIVE.)
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
Sure, but I think we all need to acknowledge that MasterMinds are, and will forever be, the best class in anything, ever.
I really missed the boat on COH. It was before I started getting into mmos and now that I am, I really find myself jonesing for a good superhero themed one and there really doesn't seem to be anything that has successfully filled the gap it left.
I think there was, like, one, but it was deliberately obtuse to use.
And none of the content was designed around needing to play super optimally, anyway. It was much more fun to watch fifty hellions clown-car their way into a dumpster after a fire tank than worry about that shit.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
I'm a Pet Class kind of guy, and I have yet to find a class in any game that does the pet/support archetype nearly as well as Masterminds did.
I guess STO's ground combat with bridge officers can provide a bit of that same feel, but it's really not the same.
(All ATs were rad, respect for everyone)