So, quick question...sorry for the double posting.
We're using standard array or modified array for character development...so I haven't sussed out how to get to 16/16/16 at the start. The closest is this:
16 Str
11 Con
16 Dex
8 Int
14 Wis (12 base + 2 human bonus)
11 Cha
Do you think that'd be a better starting point than where I currently am. Also, we are playing strictly out of the PHB for now. We're all new players with a first timer DM...so trying to keep fairly straightforward.
Thanks!
From a Point Buy standpoint, that Human +2 is worth more if you drop it on a high stat to make it higher than using it to make a midling stat high. If you drop it on a 14 in Str (to total out at 16) it'll get you a couple of points back to put in Wisdom. If you can't get all three at 16 (I'm not sure you can with a Human), I would prioritize Wis since you have Lay on Hands and nothing that really keys on Dex yet.
Another really silly note: a non-magical holy symbol is literally pointless. For you, it'll probably be pointless even if it has a +X bonus on it, since all your attacks are going to be Str-based. I would drop that from your kit and get a couple gold back. You might need it.
But, maybe I am just bad... I can't see starting any character without at least an 18 in your primary (16+2). Then again, I've never played a Defender.
Assuming you aren't giving up + to hit elsewhere (weapon/feats) it's not that big a deal. I don't think I'd ever do it on a Striker but on a Defender making sure you're still up to attract attention can outweigh the offensive advantage.
On a Striker or Controller, that big primary stat is pretty damn important. You've got to hit to be effective, so make damn sure you do. For a Leader, it's still pretty damn important, but a lot of buff riders are secondaries, so depending on build it might be worth dividing (though 18/18 is not impossible by any stretch).
For Defenders, you're doing your job by staying alive. So higher defenses and protective rider effects are crucial. 18/18 + Heavy Shield is also an acceptable option, as long as your 18's are in Fort and Will. And Battleminds get weird with their Con primary and weird rider issues, but that's a corner case.
Fighters and Paladins should generally shoot for 16's in three separate defense pairs, or run a heavy shield and tank Dex/Int if they have to pick one.
Paladin is arguably one of the few classes that doesn't need to start with an 18, assuming you use a weapon with a +3 proficiency bonus.
That said, your best bet is to go 18/16 Str/Wis. The nice part is you can almost leave that Wis right where it's at.
Split the rest of your points as evenly as possibly between Cha, Con, and Dex, prioritizing them in that order (your shield will buff your Reflex, and there's a feat that lets you use Wis for Initiative, and you'll never pass a Dex check to save your life anyway).
Paladin is arguably one of the few classes that doesn't need to start with an 18, assuming you use a weapon with a +3 proficiency bonus.
That said, your best bet is to go 18/16 Str/Wis. The nice part is you can almost leave that Wis right where it's at.
Split the rest of your points as evenly as possibly between Cha, Con, and Dex, prioritizing them in that order (your shield will buff your Reflex, and there's a feat that lets you use Wis for Initiative, and you'll never pass a Dex check to save your life anyway).
For Str Paladins Cha is just for the damage from marking basically. I'd actually put it below Dex and probably Con. Dex gives Ref and heavy blade feats, Con is living. You don't mark so much to do damage as you do to give them that -2. If your Strength is high enough and you're where you should be the damage will come from smacking the heck out of them.
16 in a primary is completely serviceable. Regardless of class. The game is balanced internally on an assumption of 16. Higher is better, obviously, but +3 will get the job done. Otherwise you would never see 90% of the possible race/class combos. And that would suck.
Dex is only useful for Reflex. That's really all a Paladin needs it for. That and initiative, but A- Your party's leader can help with that, and B- there's a feat that lets you use Wis instead.
As a defender, if you're not able to punish for mark violations, you're not going to go very far.
Dex is only useful for Reflex. That's really all a Paladin needs it for. That and initiative, but A- Your party's leader can help with that, and B- there's a feat that lets you use Wis instead.
As a defender, if you're not able to punish for mark violations, you're not going to go very far.
You're ignoring the Heavy Blade feats, the iconic one of which makes your Opportunity Attacks much more powerful.
In the larger scope you are greatly overemphasizing the advancement of the Paladin mark by having a moderate instead of horrible Charisma. You are talking about a couple points of purely conditional damage. I think the Paladin's mark is among the weakest of them but can be made to have teeth if you're primary Charisma. For Strength Paladins it's mostly that -2 to hit and occasionally being used to guarantee a minion attacks you rather than others. A giant solo will not notice the difference between 2 hit points and 4 hit points of damage.
The other big thing is that dumping Charisma here leaves him free to push up Wisdom which has VERY strong boosts in that it is tied to minor action healing surges.
This isn't really touching on the psychology of marks and how different DMs treat them. It is predicated on the fact that in general a DM will honor a mark so that the punishment for breaking it is an occasional benefit rather than a constant one. If you have a DM who just ignores marks then the relative value of your points increase.
Reminds me of the DM who decided that dumb animals always ignore marks. That lasted exactly one fight with a Charisma Paladin and a party that provoked OA's from it like crazy.
I'm going to melt my dice. I've been rolling horribly for the last 3 sessions. It is really killing the game for me.
This sucks.
One of my players has the WORST luck with dice.
And he is a striker.
We all cheer when he manages to actually hit anything.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
That is basically what is happening now. I started the first session off with a strong start and now I barely manage to hit. I don't think I ever managed to roll over seven in tonight's session. Everyone refuses to give me any kind of buff now.
Just a lot of pointless whining. Just not having fun anymore because of my rolls, I basically feel like I'm not doing anything.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Inherent flaw of using true randomization, honestly. Have you tried rolling your dice in a different manner? It's not impossible that you have some kind of physical habit that reduces the variability of your rolls. You could also try different dice in case yours are weighted poorly.
This is why I am such a strong, strong, strong advocate for accuracy over damage. I'd rather be able to hit on a 3 or 4 and do 2/3 the damage, then need an 8 or 9 to do it all. It's just more satisfying to me when I feel like I am constantly contributing something, as opposed to the hit or miss of a 50/50 shot. Some people hate always hitting, but it's an player preference kind of thing.
But, it does suck. I tend to get the crap luck when I get most excited. In a 13th Age PbP I joined on here, everyone else was rolling stats, so I got excited. Then I rolled likes 6s (on a 3d6k3). Then everyone was rolling money and doing awesome. I think I rolled a 1 or 2. It definitely can take the wind out of your sails. I've sworn on rolled stats unless you can roll like 10 sets and pick the one you like or something. =P
I have terrible dice luck when I'm playing (not so much when I'm DM'ing, to the chagrin of my players). This is why I play Defenders almost exclusively when I get to play.
I can still do my job, regardless of how many 4's I roll over the course of the night.
Mind providing some insight on that, @OptimusZed ? I haven't done Defender much, but I've always thought they too needed to hit for a lot of their stuff. I know most can mark without hitting (Fighter just had to engage, Paladin uses a minor, etc.), but don't their powers have On Hit effects? Or are they just straight Effects? And things like Fighter's Combat Superiority (or whichever one makes enemies stop on an OA) requires you hit for it to stop them.
Hitting is better than not hitting, even for a defender. But standing in the middle of the fight, debuffing/absorbing enemy attacks, flanking for the other melee classes and keeping the baddest guys from walking toward the mage is still doing your job.
Fighter is probably the best at doing this, because of their combat superiority and potential for At Will multimarking.
What about Knight? They don't get combat superiority, but they have an Aura 1 Mark and their defender feature is an OA (which still triggers on attacking someone not them or shifting) instead of an Immediate Action. They can't mark something at a distance, but it seems they can be pretty sticky up close.
What about Knight? They don't get combat superiority, but they have an Aura 1 Mark and their defender feature is an OA (which still triggers on attacking someone not them or shifting) instead of an Immediate Action. They can't mark something at a distance, but it seems they can be pretty sticky up close.
Knight isn't bad, though I've never played one.
The one major advantage that a baseline Fighter has over a Knight is the ability to mark and walk away. The utility of this is largely dependent on your DM and how they run the monsters involved. Knights also don't get access to Fighter Dailies, if I recall, so they can't stance up like Fighters.
I wish the marking mechanic was better. I feel like it rarely, if ever, makes a big difference in my game, because unless we're talking extremely dumb monsters, it's almost always better to take the damage/debuff and kill the shit out of the strikers/controllers than it is to just fight the guy marking you.
What about Knight? They don't get combat superiority, but they have an Aura 1 Mark and their defender feature is an OA (which still triggers on attacking someone not them or shifting) instead of an Immediate Action. They can't mark something at a distance, but it seems they can be pretty sticky up close.
Knight isn't bad, though I've never played one.
The one major advantage that a baseline Fighter has over a Knight is the ability to mark and walk away. The utility of this is largely dependent on your DM and how they run the monsters involved. Knights also don't get access to Fighter Dailies, if I recall, so they can't stance up like Fighters.
Thanks. I'm trying to think of a Defender I want to run in a game I am planning. Was considering Knight, partly for simplicity (I may be running more than one character), partly because their feature is an OA instead of an Immediate. But looking through their lineup, I'm not sure those benefits really stack up well next to what a straight Fighter might offer. I definitely like Thief over Rogue, but not sure Knight over Fighter has the same appeal.
I wish the marking mechanic was better. I feel like it rarely, if ever, makes a big difference in my game, because unless we're talking extremely dumb monsters, it's almost always better to take the damage/debuff and kill the shit out of the strikers/controllers than it is to just fight the guy marking you.
That sounds like the Strikers and Controllers shouldn't have horrible defenses. If that -2 (with a free attack against you) isn't a big factor in deciding who to attack some people are leaving themselves wide open.
What about Knight? They don't get combat superiority, but they have an Aura 1 Mark and their defender feature is an OA (which still triggers on attacking someone not them or shifting) instead of an Immediate Action. They can't mark something at a distance, but it seems they can be pretty sticky up close.
Knight isn't bad, though I've never played one.
The one major advantage that a baseline Fighter has over a Knight is the ability to mark and walk away. The utility of this is largely dependent on your DM and how they run the monsters involved. Knights also don't get access to Fighter Dailies, if I recall, so they can't stance up like Fighters.
Thanks. I'm trying to think of a Defender I want to run in a game I am planning. Was considering Knight, partly for simplicity (I may be running more than one character), partly because their feature is an OA instead of an Immediate. But looking through their lineup, I'm not sure those benefits really stack up well next to what a straight Fighter might offer. I definitely like Thief over Rogue, but not sure Knight over Fighter has the same appeal.
Yeah, a knight would likely be inferior to the weapon master fighter. That said, a Hammer-wielding knight that multi-classes into Warden has some nifty options. With the Defend the Line stance and the Crippling Crush & World Serpent's Grasp feats, OAs (on targets you already hit) become pretty nasty. Also, taking Martial Cross-Training to swap a Power Strike out for something like Come and Get It can make the Knight a bit more effective.
I'm going to melt my dice. I've been rolling horribly for the last 3 sessions. It is really killing the game for me.
This sucks.
in many contexts, dice are fun vampires, and d20s are the worst. the bigger the die, the more swingy they are when they're the crux of gameplay.
a lot of more narrative games make "failure" simply produce a different result, instead of meaning your turn produced zero results. i like that idea a lot, though the core of DnD really leans more toward tactical boardgaming/simulation, so i don't think it will (or even should) incorporate something like that aside from on-miss effects or half damage.
or powers that do less damage on hit but have beneficial effects on a miss because they're a feint, etc.
Okay, so I have to be missing something. I've been reading about Fighter. In particular, I thought Battlemind looked kind of promising for being sticky (if they shift, you can follow and your defender feature is to deal equal damage to the enemy that they deal for ignoring your mark, so either they attack you, or you get an OA + mirror the damage they deal to them). However, people keep saying Fighter is stickier because they can make sure the enemy never gets away from them to begin. How is this? Combat Superiority only stops movement from an OA, which Combat Challenge is not. Is there something else that can prevent them from shifting away from you? Or is it just powers? I notice some Encounters that prevent them from shifting, so moving means I get an OA and chance to stop them. There is also Weapon Master Strike with a Spear that makes shifting an OA, so if they shift you'd get TWO attacks and a chance to stop them. Is this what they mean by the Fighter being stickier?
To me, at least, they seem pretty similar... with Battlemind, the creature can shift away (assuming only a Shift 1), but you can follow right behind and put on the pain if they don't attack you.
Grappler Fighters in particular are almost impossible to walk away from. World Serpent's Grasp and the feat that requires grabbed enemies to escape before they can stand up basically means no shifting and no escaping. There are several ways to build it beyond that, though.
There's a feat in Psionic Power that lets you shift 2 squares instead of 1 with Blurred Step.
However
Psionic Power also has the Persistent Harrier ability for the Battlemind you can take instead of Speed of Thought or Battle Resilience. The power itself is cool: the first time you are attacked in an encounter, whether hit or miss, you can make an attack using the power (regardless of distance) and if it hits you can teleport next to the enemy.
Taking the Persistent Harrier ability lets you take the Harrying Step feat, which allows you to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy when it shifts away from you, instead of shifting 1.
@am0n With the Fighter's mark, if they try to shift away you get an opportunity attack.
I don't believe this is correct. You get an Immediate Interrupt:
Combat Challenge
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt Melee
Effect: Whenever an enemy marked by you is adjacent to you and shifts or makes an attack that does not include you as a target, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy.
I am wondering if that is part of the confusion; people think Combat Challenge is an OA and benefits from Combat Superiority.
People are saying Mobile Challenge (after Combat Challenge you can shift) can be used to follow the target. However, since Mobile Challenge occurs after Combat Challenge, and Combat Challenge occurs after they declare but before they actually move, can you actually follow them? Wouldn't you need to shift before they do? I suppose even though you couldn't end up in their square, you could end up adjacent to the square they moved into as long as you enforced the fact that you had to declare where you were shifting to prior to the shift and have to move to that square even after the attack/shift from the fighter. If this is the case, though, I can see a number of Immediates being used to not only attack but then provoke an OA by forcing people to follow up on their declared movement even though things have changed and that movement would now provoke. I imagine most tables would allow your movement choice to be altered once people started moving around the table, putting the Fighter 1 square away from the enemy he was trying to pursue (because the enemy decided to go shift left into of shifting straight back when the fighter shifted right).
I'm seeing people say Tide of Iron is awesome for sword+board. Why? Feat support? I think one person stated any Sword+Board Fighter without it should stop playing, so they seem to be adamantly for Tide of Iron. They don't give any details why, though.
Taking the Persistent Harrier ability lets you take the Harrying Step feat, which allows you to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy when it shifts away from you, instead of shifting 1.
That's pretty awesome. And I agree, Persistent Harrier seemed like the most promising one for a solid Defender. Easy gap closer.
I know exactly how Fighters work. I've played several of them They are, by far, the stickiest class in the game.
Battleminds are, conversely, the least sticky. They have basically no way of keeping their targets from moving around however they want. They make up for this with some pretty great controller effects and the ability to teleport after the bad guys like DarkPrimus is describing.
From a "hold them down while I beat on them" perspective, Battleminds are barely Defenders at all in my opinion. They are much better close range controllers.
I'm seeing people say Tide of Iron is awesome for sword+board. Why? Feat support? I think one person stated any Sword+Board Fighter without it should stop playing, so they seem to be adamantly for Tide of Iron. They don't give any details why, though.
Bad guy is next to your squishy friend. One Tide of Iron later and he is not and you are in the way of him getting back to squishy. It does have pretty good feat support as well but even unaugmented it is fairly good control against one guy.
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Another really silly note: a non-magical holy symbol is literally pointless. For you, it'll probably be pointless even if it has a +X bonus on it, since all your attacks are going to be Str-based. I would drop that from your kit and get a couple gold back. You might need it.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Assuming you aren't giving up + to hit elsewhere (weapon/feats) it's not that big a deal. I don't think I'd ever do it on a Striker but on a Defender making sure you're still up to attract attention can outweigh the offensive advantage.
For Defenders, you're doing your job by staying alive. So higher defenses and protective rider effects are crucial. 18/18 + Heavy Shield is also an acceptable option, as long as your 18's are in Fort and Will. And Battleminds get weird with their Con primary and weird rider issues, but that's a corner case.
Fighters and Paladins should generally shoot for 16's in three separate defense pairs, or run a heavy shield and tank Dex/Int if they have to pick one.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
That said, your best bet is to go 18/16 Str/Wis. The nice part is you can almost leave that Wis right where it's at.
Split the rest of your points as evenly as possibly between Cha, Con, and Dex, prioritizing them in that order (your shield will buff your Reflex, and there's a feat that lets you use Wis for Initiative, and you'll never pass a Dex check to save your life anyway).
For Str Paladins Cha is just for the damage from marking basically. I'd actually put it below Dex and probably Con. Dex gives Ref and heavy blade feats, Con is living. You don't mark so much to do damage as you do to give them that -2. If your Strength is high enough and you're where you should be the damage will come from smacking the heck out of them.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
As a defender, if you're not able to punish for mark violations, you're not going to go very far.
You're ignoring the Heavy Blade feats, the iconic one of which makes your Opportunity Attacks much more powerful.
In the larger scope you are greatly overemphasizing the advancement of the Paladin mark by having a moderate instead of horrible Charisma. You are talking about a couple points of purely conditional damage. I think the Paladin's mark is among the weakest of them but can be made to have teeth if you're primary Charisma. For Strength Paladins it's mostly that -2 to hit and occasionally being used to guarantee a minion attacks you rather than others. A giant solo will not notice the difference between 2 hit points and 4 hit points of damage.
The other big thing is that dumping Charisma here leaves him free to push up Wisdom which has VERY strong boosts in that it is tied to minor action healing surges.
This isn't really touching on the psychology of marks and how different DMs treat them. It is predicated on the fact that in general a DM will honor a mark so that the punishment for breaking it is an occasional benefit rather than a constant one. If you have a DM who just ignores marks then the relative value of your points increase.
Reminds me of the DM who decided that dumb animals always ignore marks. That lasted exactly one fight with a Charisma Paladin and a party that provoked OA's from it like crazy.
This sucks.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
One of my players has the WORST luck with dice.
And he is a striker.
We all cheer when he manages to actually hit anything.
Just a lot of pointless whining. Just not having fun anymore because of my rolls, I basically feel like I'm not doing anything.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
But, it does suck. I tend to get the crap luck when I get most excited. In a 13th Age PbP I joined on here, everyone else was rolling stats, so I got excited. Then I rolled likes 6s (on a 3d6k3). Then everyone was rolling money and doing awesome. I think I rolled a 1 or 2. It definitely can take the wind out of your sails. I've sworn on rolled stats unless you can roll like 10 sets and pick the one you like or something. =P
Now any misses aren't your fault.
I can still do my job, regardless of how many 4's I roll over the course of the night.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Fighter is probably the best at doing this, because of their combat superiority and potential for At Will multimarking.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
The one major advantage that a baseline Fighter has over a Knight is the ability to mark and walk away. The utility of this is largely dependent on your DM and how they run the monsters involved. Knights also don't get access to Fighter Dailies, if I recall, so they can't stance up like Fighters.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I don't think that limitation exists. If you use a multi-target or minor attacks, you can choose to mark them all.
Thanks. I'm trying to think of a Defender I want to run in a game I am planning. Was considering Knight, partly for simplicity (I may be running more than one character), partly because their feature is an OA instead of an Immediate. But looking through their lineup, I'm not sure those benefits really stack up well next to what a straight Fighter might offer. I definitely like Thief over Rogue, but not sure Knight over Fighter has the same appeal.
That sounds like the Strikers and Controllers shouldn't have horrible defenses. If that -2 (with a free attack against you) isn't a big factor in deciding who to attack some people are leaving themselves wide open.
Yeah, a knight would likely be inferior to the weapon master fighter. That said, a Hammer-wielding knight that multi-classes into Warden has some nifty options. With the Defend the Line stance and the Crippling Crush & World Serpent's Grasp feats, OAs (on targets you already hit) become pretty nasty. Also, taking Martial Cross-Training to swap a Power Strike out for something like Come and Get It can make the Knight a bit more effective.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
in many contexts, dice are fun vampires, and d20s are the worst. the bigger the die, the more swingy they are when they're the crux of gameplay.
a lot of more narrative games make "failure" simply produce a different result, instead of meaning your turn produced zero results. i like that idea a lot, though the core of DnD really leans more toward tactical boardgaming/simulation, so i don't think it will (or even should) incorporate something like that aside from on-miss effects or half damage.
or powers that do less damage on hit but have beneficial effects on a miss because they're a feint, etc.
To me, at least, they seem pretty similar... with Battlemind, the creature can shift away (assuming only a Shift 1), but you can follow right behind and put on the pain if they don't attack you.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
However
Psionic Power also has the Persistent Harrier ability for the Battlemind you can take instead of Speed of Thought or Battle Resilience. The power itself is cool: the first time you are attacked in an encounter, whether hit or miss, you can make an attack using the power (regardless of distance) and if it hits you can teleport next to the enemy.
Taking the Persistent Harrier ability lets you take the Harrying Step feat, which allows you to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy when it shifts away from you, instead of shifting 1.
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I don't believe this is correct. You get an Immediate Interrupt:
I am wondering if that is part of the confusion; people think Combat Challenge is an OA and benefits from Combat Superiority.
Unless they changed this in the last few months?
People are saying Mobile Challenge (after Combat Challenge you can shift) can be used to follow the target. However, since Mobile Challenge occurs after Combat Challenge, and Combat Challenge occurs after they declare but before they actually move, can you actually follow them? Wouldn't you need to shift before they do? I suppose even though you couldn't end up in their square, you could end up adjacent to the square they moved into as long as you enforced the fact that you had to declare where you were shifting to prior to the shift and have to move to that square even after the attack/shift from the fighter. If this is the case, though, I can see a number of Immediates being used to not only attack but then provoke an OA by forcing people to follow up on their declared movement even though things have changed and that movement would now provoke. I imagine most tables would allow your movement choice to be altered once people started moving around the table, putting the Fighter 1 square away from the enemy he was trying to pursue (because the enemy decided to go shift left into of shifting straight back when the fighter shifted right).
I'm seeing people say Tide of Iron is awesome for sword+board. Why? Feat support? I think one person stated any Sword+Board Fighter without it should stop playing, so they seem to be adamantly for Tide of Iron. They don't give any details why, though.
That's pretty awesome. And I agree, Persistent Harrier seemed like the most promising one for a solid Defender. Easy gap closer.
Battleminds are, conversely, the least sticky. They have basically no way of keeping their targets from moving around however they want. They make up for this with some pretty great controller effects and the ability to teleport after the bad guys like DarkPrimus is describing.
From a "hold them down while I beat on them" perspective, Battleminds are barely Defenders at all in my opinion. They are much better close range controllers.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Bad guy is next to your squishy friend. One Tide of Iron later and he is not and you are in the way of him getting back to squishy. It does have pretty good feat support as well but even unaugmented it is fairly good control against one guy.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.