I rewatch everything when I rewatch, but I think the Byron episodes are more of a slog than the bad episodes of season 1, simply because you know there'll be another terrible Byron episode along soon, whereas the bad in season 1 was standalone and done in 42 minutes.
I always find myself looking at David Warner's face in Grail as this astonishingly talented and versatile actor finds himself talking utter nonsense opposite the guy who plays Jinxo. THAT'S WHY THEY CALL ME JINXO blares into his face with all the feeling and human empathy of a foghorn at a funeral and his soul cries out in anguish at the harm done to his beloved craft.
Also staring in that episode was the guy who played Bishop Brennan, once so memorably kicked up the arse by Father Ted.
daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Even Infection introduces Interplanetary Expeditions and their stupidly evil shenanigans. TKO is a weird pairing of a completely boring (to me) A plot and a really great character development B plot.
There was a huge improvement in the CGI between Season One and Season Two. I'm not sure what happened exactly, but most of the show's CGI looks pretty good, though date, while the Season One stuff just looks bad.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I finished season 4, and I think I'm binge-watched out. Gonna take the last season at a more healthy pace.
Just on the topic of bad episodes, the one that stands out to me was the "missing-floor mystery" one. Its probably not objectively bad as some of the first season ones, but I feel relative to the rest of the awesomeness (well the walkabout plotline was a bit meh though) that was season 3 and on into season 4, most of the plotline (Garibali and the missing floor) in that episode fell flat. Sure it hit on some necessary points (and the Delenn and Neroon plotline is very good), on the whole it kinda stuck out like a sore thumb.
Also, about the season 4 finale:
What an interesting way to take the season finale there. The whole time jump in the future to see how history remembers Sheridan and Delenn an interesting way to do it. The talking heads at the 100th year anniversary was interesting, though I don't like the message it sent. History really is mostly about big social/economical movements, and I feel like the writers were kinda trying to argue for a "great man" history. Though it is very believable that in a 100 years scholars got things all wrong. And the "great burn" time skip seemed like a great shout out to the story A Canticle of Leibowitz.
One of my favorite lines was when Garibali was leading the rescue of Sheridan, and he's trying to get by the guards:
Garibali: Didn't you see me on ISN?
Rando Security Guard: I don't watch TV, its a cultural wasteland filled with inappropriate metaphors and an unrealistic portrayal of life created by the liberal media elite.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
+4
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
Byron's story dragging so hard is an unfortunate consequence of the rushing of S4 because of the threat of cancellation.
I really wish we'd gotten the planned timeline instead. S4 ending with the interrogation episode would have been epic.
I really think the condensing of seasons into S4 helped quite a bit. S4 feels more focused and there's very little filler. Might have benefited from a few more episodes, but a whole extra season maybe not so much.
Byron's story dragging so hard is an unfortunate consequence of the rushing of S4 because of the threat of cancellation.
I really wish we'd gotten the planned timeline instead. S4 ending with the interrogation episode would have been epic.
I really think the condensing of seasons into S4 helped quite a bit. S4 feels more focused and there's very little filler. Might have benefited from a few more episodes, but a whole extra season maybe not so much.
It wouldn't have been a whole extra season. S4 was supposed to end with Sheridan's capture. The Earth Civil War plot ends around when the shadow war does in terms of timing within the season and then the rest of S5 is the denouement.
What ends up happening instead is S4 gets way too compressed in the last 1/3rd or so and S5 is left with too little story filling too much time. It also makes the end of S4 weird and kinda odd given the larger themes of the series and hurts what S5 is trying to do.
I finished season 4, and I think I'm binge-watched out. Gonna take the last season at a more healthy pace.
Just on the topic of bad episodes, the one that stands out to me was the "missing-floor mystery" one. Its probably not objectively bad as some of the first season ones, but I feel relative to the rest of the awesomeness (well the walkabout plotline was a bit meh though) that was season 3 and on into season 4, most of the plotline (Garibali and the missing floor) in that episode fell flat. Sure it hit on some necessary points (and the Delenn and Neroon plotline is very good), on the whole it kinda stuck out like a sore thumb.
Also, about the season 4 finale:
What an interesting way to take the season finale there. The whole time jump in the future to see how history remembers Sheridan and Delenn an interesting way to do it. The talking heads at the 100th year anniversary was interesting, though I don't like the message it sent. History really is mostly about big social/economical movements, and I feel like the writers were kinda trying to argue for a "great man" history. Though it is very believable that in a 100 years scholars got things all wrong. And the "great burn" time skip seemed like a great shout out to the story A Canticle of Leibowitz.
One of my favorite lines was when Garibali was leading the rescue of Sheridan, and he's trying to get by the guards:
Garibali: Didn't you see me on ISN?
Rando Security Guard: I don't watch TV, its a cultural wasteland filled with inappropriate metaphors and an unrealistic portrayal of life created by the liberal media elite.
The first time jump in Deconstruction isn't about great man history imo but about the way the propaganda efforts against Sheridan continue long after his death and how this ties in with the long-running political issues of humanity.
It always did kind of feel like some totally-out-of-left-field bullshit what happened to his character there. I get Stumbling At A Dramatically Appropriate Moment, but that was above and beyond.
+1
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
It always did kind of feel like some totally-out-of-left-field bullshit what happened to his character there. I get Stumbling At A Dramatically Appropriate Moment, but that was above and beyond.
Yeah, to be fair, I like his interpretation better. I thought it was incredibly out-of-character for Lennier to abandon both Sheridan and, as Mumy points out in particular, the other Ranger. But I chalked it up to everyone having their breaking point.
It always did kind of feel like some totally-out-of-left-field bullshit what happened to his character there. I get Stumbling At A Dramatically Appropriate Moment, but that was above and beyond.
It seemed the logical extension of his character to me. Like, it hurts, but it had been building up all year. With the wedding at the end of S4 he finally can't hope she's just gonna come around and does something drastic to try and reshape himself but it's never enough. So for a second he sees his chance and considers it. The whole unrequited love thing is only romantic and beautiful in fairy tales.
shryke on
+2
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I'm fine with what happened, but it was kind of a crummy note for the character to go out on. If it had happened earlier in the season and the situation had been able to reach some kind of closure or resolution by the end, I think the actor would feel a lot less ill-used by it.
This is kind of emblematic of what's wrong with season 5. The idea that the season was bad purely because the end of S4 had had to be rushed is kind of bunk, or at least, it's not really an excuse. JMS had had to deviate from The Plan plenty of times before, and it was quite frankly often to the series' benefit. His improvisations often made better use of the actor, or of the way the story had been playing out.
It's no fault of the premise. The situation at the end of season 4 and start of season 5 is not some barren, denuded wasteland. Sheridan and company have just kicked off a new galactic government! That's a big deal! Season 5 could have used the extra space to really stretch its legs and explore what that meant and pit our heroes against all kinds of interesting new challenges! It just didn't.
Conversely, bad ideas are still bad ideas whether they were part of The Plan or not. Having fewer episodes to do Byron in would admittedly have made that period less excruciating, but Byron was still a bad idea poorly done. Byron is the most egregious, obvious example, but I think the big issue underlying the season - and it's one that Lennier's fate is emblematic of - is structural weakness.
JMS, for perfectly valid reasons, wanted to show that life goes on and stories don't wrap up neatly and et cetera et cetera, which is a noble enough goal, but the way it plays out in practice is that the entire season becomes a protracted teaser for big events that we the viewers will never get to actually see. We get to see the prelude to the telepath war, but not the event itself. We get to see Lennier disgraced, but with no resolution to his story. We get to see the beginning of the sack of Centauri Prime, but not the end of it.
What this feels emblematic of is a show that's grown addicted to Big Moments and Mega-Twists and doesn't know how to turn down the volume and come to a graceful halt. I'm not suggesting that those things shouldn't have been teased in season 5, or that they should all have been resolved neatly, but the season doesn't manage to deliver many satisfying smaller stories either. Somewhere along the way everyone lost the knack for more intimate, character-focused episodes like "Believers" or "GROPOS." The result is an entire season of anticlimax.
Ultimately I think, as with Crusade, that the real culprit wasn't deviating from The Plan but just plain old fatigue. The loss of Claudia Christian (which was totally avoidable and down to a dopey production mistake) didn't help either.
+2
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I enjoyed Season 5 but I agree that its biggest weakness by far was that it simply rehashed a lot of old storylines and arcs. It didn't feel like the scope of the problems got any bigger, and it didn't feel like there was any real grappling with the idea or implementation of an actual Interstellar Alliance that had not existed before.
I would've enjoyed more parallels with how the United States of America had its own growing pains. In particular, the ISA much more closely resembles the original "failed" experiment of the Articles of Confederation, where member states essentially had their own governments with no superseding federal authority (including no ability to levy taxes). Instead we basically got "lol the Centauri dun fucked up again".
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I never had an issue with S5 because of everything S4 wrapped up, but because S5 was basically a new arc that got one season and never got to finish. It's got a lot that's executed better than S1 of the same show, but a lot of it also never ties to anything of note because the show got cancelled. Several character changes, but we never get a chance to really see these characters fleshed out. There was plenty of story left, but not nearly enough screen time.
If the show had gotten to run for, say, another three seasons, it would probably be a totally different story. But if B5 had been cancelled after S1, it would be remembered as a bad show that hinted it could be better but never got the chance to deliver. If B5 had run to S8 and been intentionally concluded at a certain point, I'm sure S5 would seem a lot better as well.
I remember some interview with Ellison on the SyFy channel where he said "I'll nail your cat to the coffee table.". I don't remember what for.
Ellison used to host the Andy Rooney-ish cranky old man segment at the end of Sci-Fi Buzz, an Entertainment Tonight-ish puff piece show that ran on the channel in its early days ('92-94ish). That's probably what you're remembering.
It was a pretty good segment and his rants guided me toward some worthwhile authors and away from a lot of garbage, which he was not diplomatic about calling garbage.
+4
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I remember watching Ellison introduce old Doctor Who episdodes when the Sci-Fi channel premiered. It was 3 days of teenage sci-fi dork awesomeness. Godspeed, dickhead.
MrMrMister & I just got to the start of season 2. His reaction:
wait... they just got rid of Sinclair? HE WAS GETTING MARRIED!!
Did he ever get married? Did she go to Minbar? How could they... fucking ice cold
Out of Series/Behind the scenes things
it was a decision between O'Hare and Stracyznski, to accomodate O'Hare's needs as his mental illness was progressing. The original suggestion was that they could put season 1 on hiatus while O'Hare was getting treated, but he worried doing so would put everyone's jobs at risk, so he decided with JMS to finish out the season and then have him written out so he could pursue treatment.
0
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
MrMrMister & I just got to the start of season 2. His reaction:
wait... they just got rid of Sinclair? HE WAS GETTING MARRIED!!
Did he ever get married? Did she go to Minbar? How could they... fucking ice cold
Out of Series/Behind the scenes things
it was a decision between O'Hare and Stracyznski, to accomodate O'Hare's needs as his mental illness was progressing. The original suggestion was that they could put season 1 on hiatus while O'Hare was getting treated, but he worried doing so would put everyone's jobs at risk, so he decided with JMS to finish out the season and then have him written out so he could pursue treatment.
I had heard about his illness, but not this particular part.
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I always find myself looking at David Warner's face in Grail as this astonishingly talented and versatile actor finds himself talking utter nonsense opposite the guy who plays Jinxo. THAT'S WHY THEY CALL ME JINXO blares into his face with all the feeling and human empathy of a foghorn at a funeral and his soul cries out in anguish at the harm done to his beloved craft.
Also staring in that episode was the guy who played Bishop Brennan, once so memorably kicked up the arse by Father Ted.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
There was a huge improvement in the CGI between Season One and Season Two. I'm not sure what happened exactly, but most of the show's CGI looks pretty good, though date, while the Season One stuff just looks bad.
I really wish we'd gotten the planned timeline instead. S4 ending with the interrogation episode would have been epic.
Just on the topic of bad episodes, the one that stands out to me was the "missing-floor mystery" one. Its probably not objectively bad as some of the first season ones, but I feel relative to the rest of the awesomeness (well the walkabout plotline was a bit meh though) that was season 3 and on into season 4, most of the plotline (Garibali and the missing floor) in that episode fell flat. Sure it hit on some necessary points (and the Delenn and Neroon plotline is very good), on the whole it kinda stuck out like a sore thumb.
Also, about the season 4 finale:
One of my favorite lines was when Garibali was leading the rescue of Sheridan, and he's trying to get by the guards:
Garibali: Didn't you see me on ISN?
Rando Security Guard: I don't watch TV, its a cultural wasteland filled with inappropriate metaphors and an unrealistic portrayal of life created by the liberal media elite.
I really think the condensing of seasons into S4 helped quite a bit. S4 feels more focused and there's very little filler. Might have benefited from a few more episodes, but a whole extra season maybe not so much.
It wouldn't have been a whole extra season. S4 was supposed to end with Sheridan's capture. The Earth Civil War plot ends around when the shadow war does in terms of timing within the season and then the rest of S5 is the denouement.
What ends up happening instead is S4 gets way too compressed in the last 1/3rd or so and S5 is left with too little story filling too much time. It also makes the end of S4 weird and kinda odd given the larger themes of the series and hurts what S5 is trying to do.
The first time jump in Deconstruction isn't about great man history imo but about the way the propaganda efforts against Sheridan continue long after his death and how this ties in with the long-running political issues of humanity.
"That's alright! So does he!"
Entire episode justified, right there.
Bill Mumy sounds like he knows how to bear a grudge.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
oh my god he will not stop talking about it
Yeah, to be fair, I like his interpretation better. I thought it was incredibly out-of-character for Lennier to abandon both Sheridan and, as Mumy points out in particular, the other Ranger. But I chalked it up to everyone having their breaking point.
It seemed the logical extension of his character to me. Like, it hurts, but it had been building up all year. With the wedding at the end of S4 he finally can't hope she's just gonna come around and does something drastic to try and reshape himself but it's never enough. So for a second he sees his chance and considers it. The whole unrequited love thing is only romantic and beautiful in fairy tales.
This is kind of emblematic of what's wrong with season 5. The idea that the season was bad purely because the end of S4 had had to be rushed is kind of bunk, or at least, it's not really an excuse. JMS had had to deviate from The Plan plenty of times before, and it was quite frankly often to the series' benefit. His improvisations often made better use of the actor, or of the way the story had been playing out.
It's no fault of the premise. The situation at the end of season 4 and start of season 5 is not some barren, denuded wasteland. Sheridan and company have just kicked off a new galactic government! That's a big deal! Season 5 could have used the extra space to really stretch its legs and explore what that meant and pit our heroes against all kinds of interesting new challenges! It just didn't.
Conversely, bad ideas are still bad ideas whether they were part of The Plan or not. Having fewer episodes to do Byron in would admittedly have made that period less excruciating, but Byron was still a bad idea poorly done. Byron is the most egregious, obvious example, but I think the big issue underlying the season - and it's one that Lennier's fate is emblematic of - is structural weakness.
JMS, for perfectly valid reasons, wanted to show that life goes on and stories don't wrap up neatly and et cetera et cetera, which is a noble enough goal, but the way it plays out in practice is that the entire season becomes a protracted teaser for big events that we the viewers will never get to actually see. We get to see the prelude to the telepath war, but not the event itself. We get to see Lennier disgraced, but with no resolution to his story. We get to see the beginning of the sack of Centauri Prime, but not the end of it.
What this feels emblematic of is a show that's grown addicted to Big Moments and Mega-Twists and doesn't know how to turn down the volume and come to a graceful halt. I'm not suggesting that those things shouldn't have been teased in season 5, or that they should all have been resolved neatly, but the season doesn't manage to deliver many satisfying smaller stories either. Somewhere along the way everyone lost the knack for more intimate, character-focused episodes like "Believers" or "GROPOS." The result is an entire season of anticlimax.
Ultimately I think, as with Crusade, that the real culprit wasn't deviating from The Plan but just plain old fatigue. The loss of Claudia Christian (which was totally avoidable and down to a dopey production mistake) didn't help either.
I would've enjoyed more parallels with how the United States of America had its own growing pains. In particular, the ISA much more closely resembles the original "failed" experiment of the Articles of Confederation, where member states essentially had their own governments with no superseding federal authority (including no ability to levy taxes). Instead we basically got "lol the Centauri dun fucked up again".
Forget that, I didnt know Peter Jurasik was in TRON. Crazy.
If the show had gotten to run for, say, another three seasons, it would probably be a totally different story. But if B5 had been cancelled after S1, it would be remembered as a bad show that hinted it could be better but never got the chance to deliver. If B5 had run to S8 and been intentionally concluded at a certain point, I'm sure S5 would seem a lot better as well.
Yet also how very talented he was and how generous he could be if the mood struck him.
His support for Babylon 5 and willingness to come aboard as "consulting consultant" was a not insignificant help in getting it made.
Its a shame. Dude was an good writer and probably one of my famous cranky old men to listen to.
Also he help Octavia Butler early in her career which is a huge thumbs up for me.
Ellison used to host the Andy Rooney-ish cranky old man segment at the end of Sci-Fi Buzz, an Entertainment Tonight-ish puff piece show that ran on the channel in its early days ('92-94ish). That's probably what you're remembering.
It was a pretty good segment and his rants guided me toward some worthwhile authors and away from a lot of garbage, which he was not diplomatic about calling garbage.
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
I'm trying to remember my saturday afternoon channel 11 style. Was that the Dale Midkiff show?
pleasepaypreacher.net
Yup!
Netflix, reboot that right now! You know you want to.
Did he ever get married? Did she go to Minbar? How could they... fucking ice cold
Out of Series/Behind the scenes things
I had heard about his illness, but not this particular part.
Sad, but sweet.